Nazarene Theological Seminary

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I was in a group of pastors and lay people recently and the discussion was focused around ministerial education and development. At one point, a pastor said that Nazarene Theological Seminary (NTS) was for those who wanted to teach (higher education) and that if someone wants to pastor s/he would naturally stay local and go through the district ministerial development program or perhaps study at a local seminary.

I was surprised and even caught off-guard by this notion.

Does this understanding of NTS reflect the majority out there - that it's just for those who want to teach in a classroom?

I've only been gone for two years or so, but I don't believe it's the notion at NTS, not at all.

[Ken Pell]

I was in a group of pastors and lay people recently and the discussion was focused around ministerial education and development. At one point, a pastor said that Nazarene Theological Seminary (NTS) was for those who wanted to teach (higher education) and that if someone wants to pastor s/he would naturally stay local and go through the district ministerial development program or perhaps study at a local seminary.

I was surprised and even caught off-guard by this notion.

Does this understanding of NTS reflect the majority out there - that it's just for those who want to teach in a classroom?

I've only been gone for two years or so, but I don't believe it's the notion at NTS, not at all.

I don't agree with the sentiments but I do think those sentiments appear to be growing. I hear more and more people suggest that there is a disconnect between what the seminary thinks it is there for and what the local districts (including leadership ... high up leadership) think it is doing.

As I said, I do not not agree with it, but I do hear this talk much much more often. There does seem to be a growing sentiment to "train them locally."

I guess they *could" have legitimate criticism. I dunno. But some people always need something to criticize.

[Crystal Lutton]

This is sad to me :(

[Ryan Scott]

Thankfully I had the recent opportunity to be at the dinner for Dr. Benefiel's address to the Trustees on the present and future of NTS. We were also divided up into smaller groups afterwards to speak. I was amazed and touched by how much faith and support the trustees (many of whom are District Superintendents and pastors) have in the faculty and the students preparing for ministry here.

They even mentioned that not enough NTS students are pursuing further education. The percentages are much lower in that area that the seminary would like.

[Billy Cox]

At one point, a pastor said that Nazarene Theological Seminary (NTS) was for those who wanted to teach (higher education) and that if someone wants to pastor s/he would naturally stay local and go through the district ministerial development program or perhaps study at a local seminary.


What is the educational background of the pastor who made this comment?

Most of the Nazarene Bible College students I have known would agree with the statement. The more diplomatic among them said that NTS ruins alot of promising young pastors - making them good for nothing except to teach in a classroom.

I have also known a few MNU students who went on to attend NTS, but talking to them, you wouldn't be able to tell that they had learned anything since graduating from MNU.

I think it is just a reflection of pervasive fundamentalism in the Church of the Nazarene. While fundamentalism is well on its way to being eradicated in Nazarene academic circles, it takes a while for the products of the more fundamentalist manifestations of Nazarene education to cycle out of pastoral ministry.

[Wayne Paul]

Isn’t it a shame that the formal exploration of theological thought is considered a detriment to ministry?

I consider pastor's lack of understanding of theology and the importance of Wesley’s contribution and social vision one of the major down falls of the modern Nazarene movement.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Unfortunately there is a stubborn and lingering attitude that Nazarene colleges are maintained simply so that their graduates can get a high paying job, and that NTS is the way one should go to enhance a patoral career.

I have heard Nazarene college presidents quote statistics about college graduates making a lot more money than non-grads, and church leaders talk about percentages of DSes who are NTS graduates. Neither of those are the point.

Prospective pastors who are that concerned about their career paths would serve themselves and NTS well to not go there. NTS is simply the North American graduate school of theology for the Church of the Nazarene.

[Dave McClung]

I have heard Nazarene college presidents quote statistics about college graduates making a lot more money than non-grads, and church leaders talk about percentages of DSes who are NTS graduates. Neither of those are the point.

...

I wonder what college president would quote such statistics?

[Wayne Paul]

I guess this shows my bias; however, I don't believe a person should be Ordained without an education equivalent to a Wesleyan institution based M.Div.

This observation is based on the attitudes of the large number of Bachelor level ministerial student I have observed.

[Thomas Oord]

Jeremy,

This is a surprising statement! I have sometimes said something almost the opposite. That is, I strongly support NTS and encourage especially my students who see pastoral ministry in their future to attend NTS. But for some of my students who want to teach, NTS may or may not be the best place for them.

Tom

[Ryan Scott]

I guess this shows my bias; however, I don't believe a person should be Ordained without an education equivalent to a Wesleyan institution based M.Div.


I had a conversation with one professor who had gone to an inter-denominational clergy education conference. The Church of the Nazarene was the only denomination who ordained ministers without an MDiv degree. Even the US Military won't take a chaplain without one.

[Scott Sherwood]

The arrogance on all sides of this issue astounds me.

It is arrogant for career academics to say that practitioners who don't come through them will be shallow and misguided. They forget that part of the gospel's power is its simplicity. They assume that making something more complex makes it deeper.

It is arrogant for practitioners to say that they have nothing to learn from the academic study of religion. They forget that God calls us to love Him with all our minds as well as hearts, souls, and strength. They are content to myopically assume that history, Biblical studies, and theology are of more academic value than practical.

So whose side am I on?

I'd like to say I am on John Wesley's side. He was the epitome of the academic practitioner (and the practical academic). He was academic enough to demand great learning on the part of his preachers. He was practical enough to find ways of equipping them that didn't require a seven year classroom immersion.

Our academics forget that he was a full time practitioner. And our practitioners don't read him at all. That's too bad.

Maybe NTS can help us with that. It will be no easy task. The gulf between the average practitioner and the average Seminary professor is so wide right now, I'm not sure they can hear each other.

Seminary Professors are WAY too quick to label anything they find disagreeable in a practitioner "fundamentalist." And practitioners are WAY too quick to label anything they find disagreeable in a Professor "liberal." It's hard to help each other when both sides are so quick to label and dismiss.

And most Seminary Profs don't think they need any help from a bunch of anti-intellectual fundamentelist-leavened pop-theologian know-nothing preachers. Likewise most practitioners don't think they need any help from out of touch, ivory tower, liberal-tainted, do-nothing professors.

[Scott Sherwood]

I had a conversation with one professor who had gone to an inter-denominational clergy education conference. The Church of the Nazarene was the only denomination who ordained ministers without an MDiv degree. Even the US Military won't take a chaplain without one.

Sounds like your professor friend was hanging out with exclusively mainline protestants at this conference. It is very common amongst evangelical groups not to require an M.Div. for ordination. Free Methodist, Church of God, Anderson, Evangelical Free, Southern Baptist, Christian Church, CMA, etc.

[Dennis M. Scott]

I guess this shows my bias; however, I don't believe a person should be Ordained without an education equivalent to a Wesleyan institution based M.Div.

This observation is based on the attitudes of the large number of Bachelor level ministerial student I have observed.


I respectfully disagree. I don't think academic achievement should have anything to do with ordination. I know I'm nearly alone on this, but ordination as the church's recognition of the candidate's gifts/graces and being used by the Lord is different than academic requirements. The church in some countries should perhaps have academic requirements for someone to serve in some capacities, but there are other world areas and/or cultures especially where an M. Div. requirement is preposterous. My experience in this country has been that some persons, whether M. Div., homestudy, whatever, have erroneously assumed that academic fulfillment, along with time served (!), is reason for ordination, whether they have the Lord's blessing or not.

Some would say that I am proof enough that an M. Div. simply does not ensure a person can be taught enough to prepare them for ministry. :laughing

[Dennis M. Scott]

I wonder what college president would quote such statistics?


Sorry, Dave, but among some of the things I remember you saying, that isn't. That logic would hold for any college. If that's the only rationale to go to a Nazarene school, one might as well go to the local state schools, and Nazarene education is just too expensive for that. I remember you talking more about atmosphere, character, and influence of the greater Nazarene educational community/family. You can't buy that down at the state school.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

The arrogance on all sides of this issue astounds me.

It is arrogant for career academics to say that practitioners who don't come through them will be shallow and misguided. They forget that part of the gospel's power is its simplicity. They assume that making something more complex makes it deeper.

It is arrogant for practitioners to say that they have nothing to learn from the academic study of religion. They forget that God calls us to love Him with all our minds as well as hearts, souls, and strength. They are content to myopically assume that history, Biblical studies, and theology are of more academic value than practical.

So whose side am I on?

I'd like to say I am on John Wesley's side. He was the epitome of the academic practitioner (and the practical academic). He was academic enough to demand great learning on the part of his preachers. He was practical enough to find ways of equipping them that didn't require a seven year classroom immersion.

Our academics forget that he was a full time practitioner. And our practitioners don't read him at all. That's too bad.

Maybe NTS can help us with that. It will be no easy task. The gulf between the average practitioner and the average Seminary professor is so wide right now, I'm not sure they can hear each other.

Seminary Professors are WAY too quick to label anything they find disagreeable in a practitioner "fundamentalist." And practitioners are WAY too quick to label anything they find disagreeable in a Professor "liberal." It's hard to help each other when both sides are so quick to label and dismiss.

And most Seminary Profs don't think they need any help from a bunch of anti-intellectual fundamentelist-leavened pop-theologian know-nothing preachers. Likewise most practitioners don't think they need any help from out of touch, ivory tower, liberal-tainted, do-nothing professors.

This was such a great post and I found myself nodding at every paragraph until the last one.

At least in my experience, my professors at NTS were pastors. They know what the local context looks like. I can't think of any one of them who I would be nervous about in parish ministry. In fact, it was their interaction with Christ's church on a local level which made me feel like I could learn from them. Even the most academic of them teach Sunday School every week. Others serve as interim preaching pastors. And the majority of them have served in the local parish extensively.

In fact, I just went to the website and looked through the faculty page (http://nts.edu/Default.aspx?p=17134) to refresh my memory, and the only possible exceptions to the above are the two main theology professors (I could be wrong on them). Other than that, the NTS faculty is quite familiar with praxis, not via their academic attainments, but via actual time and experience in the local church (and continued time and experience, not that of yesteryear).

Anyway, I just wrote two paragraphs in disagreement with but one of yours. The rest of what you wrote is close to my heart. Particularly this:

Maybe NTS can help us with that. It will be no easy task. The gulf between the average practitioner and the average Seminary professor is so wide right now, I'm not sure they can hear each other.

This gap is scary and has potential for continued problems if not faced now. And I think that the CotN is in a great position to do something about it. The gap goes beyond the seminary and in fact may be even more clearly defined by the regional college religion faculties and local pastors. Here is a place where we can get together to begin to bridge the gap.

We've talked about this before (recently, I think), but I don't remember which thread...

[Ryan Scott]

And the majority of them have served in the local parish extensively.

In fact, I just went to the website and looked through the faculty page (http://nts.edu/Default.aspx?p=17134) to refresh my memory, and the only possible exceptions to the above are the two main theology professors (I could be wrong on them).


I believe Dr. Noble is a layman teaching theology to our NTS students, so you can take that as you will. He's certainly been one of my favorite professors and the one most sincere about making sure we understand theology through a pastoral lens.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I believe Dr. Noble is a layman teaching theology to our NTS students, so you can take that as you will. He's certainly been one of my favorite professors and the one most sincere about making sure we understand theology through a pastoral lens.

I would certainly concur. In Doctrine of Holiness, he was constantly challenging us to consider what we were wrestling with in relation to the local church.

As I was eating dinner and thinking about my above post, I guess what I was trying to say was that in the classroom at NTS, I feel like I was indeed constantly challenged by my professors to always be thinking about how this "stuff" translated to the local church. And they told story after story of their own experience.

[Steven Martinez]

I agree with Ryan and Jeremy in that NTS was all about utilizing the education into the pastoral setting. Dr. Noble is a great churchman who desires for all students to understand their faith to the greatest degree. Plus he plays a mean organ!

[Dennis M. Scott]

This is way out of context, but somehow it seems like the time to tell it.

Following the memorial for Brad Mercer two weeks ago, and while still at the church in Richardson, Texas, I had the occasion to speak with that church's pastor, Dr. Darius Salter. Many of you will remember that he has recently assumed that assignment, after more than two decades teaching at NTS. Jeremy had asked that I say hello for him to Dr. Salter, and I was pleased to do so. He has been a favorite prof to many NTS students, and one who especially had his heart tuned to local church scenes.

He said to me, "After teaching pastors for more than twenty years, I thought I should get back into the field and see whether or not what I've been teaching all this time actually fits in real world ministry. Unfortunately, so far, not much of it has!" :laughing

He said it jokingly. I like a man who can laugh while telling almost truth that hurts when you laugh.

As far as theory and ministry not always lining up?
We've all been there. :rolleyes:

[Dave McClung]

Sorry, Dave, but among some of the things I remember you saying, that isn't. That logic would hold for any college. If that's the only rationale to go to a Nazarene school, one might as well go to the local state schools, and Nazarene education is just too expensive for that. I remember you talking more about atmosphere, character, and influence of the greater Nazarene educational community/family. You can't buy that down at the state school.

I usually quoted those statistics in my baccalaureate sermon. I did so to help the graduates see the value of their accomplishment.

[Dave McClung]

I was in a group of pastors and lay people recently and the discussion was focused around ministerial education and development. At one point, a pastor said that Nazarene Theological Seminary (NTS) was for those who wanted to teach (higher education) and that if someone wants to pastor s/he would naturally stay local and go through the district ministerial development program or perhaps study at a local seminary.

I was surprised and even caught off-guard by this notion.

Does this understanding of NTS reflect the majority out there - that it's just for those who want to teach in a classroom?

I've only been gone for two years or so, but I don't believe it's the notion at NTS, not at all.

I have been thinking about your post and waited to respond until I had collected my thoughts. This is what I think:

1. I believe the assumption that NTS Graduates are not adequately prepared to pastor is a common one.

2. I believe that some NTS Graduates have demonstrated that, at least to some extent, the assumption is correct.

3. I believe that NTS has not done all that it can to dispell the assumption.

In stating these beliefs, I am certainly not expressing an opinion that graduates of NBC, those who enter the pastorate directly from one of our liberal arts schools, or those who complete a district sponsored ministerial education program are better prepared.

I have heard NTS graduates say from the puplit, "Nothing in my ministerial education prepared me to be pastor of this church." Usually they were talking about financial issues, but sometimes they were talking about such things as chairing a board meeting.

[Scott Sherwood]

At least in my experience, my professors at NTS were pastors. They know what the local context looks like. I can't think of any one of them who I would be nervous about in parish ministry. In fact, it was their interaction with Christ's church on a local level which made me feel like I could learn from them. Even the most academic of them teach Sunday School every week. Others serve as interim preaching pastors. And the majority of them have served in the local parish extensively.
...

I should have used the term "religion" professors in order to broaden the category. It was not my intent to pass judgment on these professors' practical experience; simply to state my impression of their attitude toward less than seminary educated practitioners. I stand by that impression. These alternatively educated pastors are consistently referred to as willfully ignorant, hostile to higher learning, and theologically deficient. Of course many of the alternatively educated pastors have their own less than favorable (and less than accurate) characterizations of professors.

Re: the professors I would estimate that about half of my professors have served as pastor of a congregation. Most of these were pastors of smaller churches at some point in their educational process (still counts). Many more serve as Sunday School teachers or other ministry role now. This is admirable, but I'm not sure it qualifies them to train leaders to grow missional congregations any more than reading a few books would qualify a pastor to train PhD. candidates.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

It seems to me that the pastors trained in our COTN colleges, have more of a down to earth quality, for fitting in with the laity, than many of the those trained at NTS. These pastors have really shocked me on Naznet.
The college trained, minus NTS, pastors, are not afraid to get their hands dirty, if necessary to win a soul or souls to the Lord.

No pastor needs to sit in the Ivory Towers of their study and plan sermons and pray all of the time. They need to spend time among the laity, and know their "hear beat" and needs, even if they, at times reach into their own pocket, and meet a need, or are ready to "bend low, ocassionally, if necessary, and fix something that needs to be repaired for someone low in funds-if it is within their ability to do so. My husband are all ordained. His brother did go through Nazarene Schools until his doctorate, that was more convenient to get, near a place he was pastoring. But, he had had his dad's training, over the years, to learn much about the pastorate.
And, this is not to say, that the pastor should constantly live cleaning the church, mowing the grass, and helping people in ways like this. But, performing duties like this sometimes, keep them more in touch with the "heart beat" of his people.

Also, the coll ege trained ministers, know more how to preach, it seems to me, from what I read on Naznet for those liestening, able to understand, no matter what level of education those of the laity have.
Guess I need another head start in running now-Right?

[Susan Unger]

I was in a group of pastors and lay people recently and the discussion was focused around ministerial education and development. At one point, a pastor said that Nazarene Theological Seminary (NTS) was for those who wanted to teach (higher education) and that if someone wants to pastor s/he would naturally stay local and go through the district ministerial development program or perhaps study at a local seminary.

If my health permitted it, I would go to NTS for my education. But since I don't, I am staying local.

A pastor that I admired as a young adult was NTS trained. I think he did a wonderful job as a pastor, much better than two I knew who did theirs locally. A teen in my church after graduating from enc, went on to nts for her masters. I haven't seen her in action, but knowing her she will do a good job. Neither are planning on being teachers, just pastors.

I think more goes on in the decision making process than the simple generalities you heard.

[Hans Deventer]

I know I'm nearly alone on this, but ordination as the church's recognition of the candidate's gifts/graces and being used by the Lord is different than academic requirements.

"Nearly" indeed. You'll find me right with you.

[Charles W Christian]

"Nearly" indeed. You'll find me right with you.

Isn't there some "both/and" here, though? What I mean is: Those who are called by God and who seem excited to respond to God's call to vocational ministry seem to want to be as prepared as possible for their callings, it seems to me. This preparation means different things to different people in different contexts.

For some, it is NBC or an equivalent preparation. For others, a university degree and/or seminary. Still others seek doctoral preparation in some way. I have met very capable and inspiring ministers that fall in all of these categories of training, and it seems to me that the best ones are lifelong learners in some way -- even if they choose not to get letters behind their names!

Thanks,

Charles, PhD, MDiv, BBA -- and most importantly -- friend of J.E.S.U.S. ! :-)

[Hans Deventer]

Isn't there some "both/and" here, though?


I don't think so. Dennis wrote: "ordination as the church's recognition of the candidate's gifts/graces and being used by the Lord is different than academic requirements". That is true. It is simply not the same. One may argue both are needed, but they are certainly not the same.

Dennis also wrote: "My experience in this country has been that some persons, whether M. Div., homestudy, whatever, have erroneously assumed that academic fulfillment, along with time served (!), is reason for ordination, whether they have the Lord's blessing or not."

Again, I agree. And I actually think you do too ;)

[Dennis M. Scott]

Isn't there some "both/and" here, though? What I mean is: Those who are called by God and who seem excited to respond to God's call to vocational ministry seem to want to be as prepared as possible for their callings, it seems to me. This preparation means different things to different people in different contexts.

For some, it is NBC or an equivalent preparation. For others, a university degree and/or seminary. Still others seek doctoral preparation in some way. I have met very capable and inspiring ministers that fall in all of these categories of training, and it seems to me that the best ones are lifelong learners in some way -- even if they choose not to get letters behind their names!

Thanks,

Charles, PhD, MDiv, BBA -- and most importantly -- friend of J.E.S.U.S. ! :-)


Charles,

I don't think we differ much. My primary points are twofold:
1 - there are cultures and places - in the US and elsewhere - where an M. Div. would serve no purpose. Granted, most Nazarene North American congregations would benefit - IMO - from having a pastor with an NTS M. Div. I am so disappointed, apparently I have not been writing in a manner that Anne can read - and she seemed to like to like what I write.
2 - Worldwide, making an M. Div. would mean obviusly that tens of thousands of indigenous pastors would never be ordained. Many of those pastors are used mightily of God and meet every other appropriate qualification for ordination, and should not be barred thusly.

If a DS and local church wants to only consider M. Div. holders, that is certainly appropriate, but to make it a universal requirement is going where we don't need to go. We're simply not that kind of denomination, and we would do well to resist such a direction. If other denominations want to serve that kind of elitist populations, perhaps the Lord is leading them there. Hopefully there will always be a seat for the humble and the poor in the COTN - and a pulpit as well. Yes, I surely know one can be humble, poor, and an NTS graduate. It is also possible to be rich, proud, an NTS grad and ineffective in ministry. Ordination should be based on ministry effectiveness, not academic achievement alone. None of us are calling for that.

[Dave McClung]

"Nearly" indeed. You'll find me right with you.

I was with a church official recently who was suggesting that there should be some practical experience requirements to ordination. He mentioned several requirements but the one that stuck in my mind was that he suggested that a person shouldn't be ordained until they have been present when someone dies.

[Mike Schutz]

I was with a church official recently who was suggesting that there should be some practical experience requirements to ordination. He mentioned several requirements but the one that stuck in my mind was that he suggested that a person shouldn't be ordained until they have been present when someone dies.


I thought of several semi-humorous responses, all of which were inappropriate. So, I'll just let this sit there and walk away.

[Ryan Scott]

I think Charles' requirement of being a lifelong learner is the important qualification. I think my hesitation with the local programs is the wide variety of quality contained therein. I think my advocating more official academic preparation is really a cry for more oversight of the local programs. Some districts do this extremely well; others, not so much.

[Charles W Christian]

I don't think so. Dennis wrote: "ordination as the church's recognition of the candidate's gifts/graces and being used by the Lord is different than academic requirements". That is true. It is simply not the same. One may argue both are needed, but they are certainly not the same.

Dennis also wrote: "My experience in this country has been that some persons, whether M. Div., homestudy, whatever, have erroneously assumed that academic fulfillment, along with time served (!), is reason for ordination, whether they have the Lord's blessing or not."

Again, I agree. And I actually think you do too ;)

I do agree that being used by the Lord and being ordained or even having degrees is not the same thing.

But, I'm sure you agree, Hans, that
1. just because someone says they're called, yet does not seek to get tools to assist himself/herself in better carrying out they're calling does not mean that they will be as useful.
2. If a person thinks that academic qualifications alone will make him/her a minister, they've missed the point. If someone thinks that a sense of calling from God and gifting from God alone is the "whole story" of their ministry, they've missed the point as well (at least gauging from what seem to be biblical "norms" for ministry).
3. Either kind of pride comes before a fall.....

Thanks,
Charles

[Dennis M. Scott]

I was with a church official recently who was suggesting that there should be some practical experience requirements to ordination. He mentioned several requirements but the one that stuck in my mind was that he suggested that a person shouldn't be ordained until they have been present when someone dies.



Interesting. For me, somewhat problematic. I have conducted hundreds of funerals. I have led people to the Lord on their deathbeds, and twice I have led someone to the Lord, left the hospital, and arrived home to receive a message that they had died immediately after my leaving the hospital. Letting word of that out has greatly lessened the calls for my attendance at hospitals where really sick people are. I have arrived seconds following a number of people dying, but the only time I have been bedside at the time of death was the occasion of my father-in-law two years ago. Consequently, I guess I would only then have qualified for ordination. Some would appaud that, too. I take ordination seriously, but I guess I hadn't considered it urgent enough that someone besides the Lord would have to give their life in order for me to be ordained.

How about being present at the birth of the child of a parishioner? I've done that several times, even being in the delivery room. I think I'd prefer that being a requirement.

[Scott Sherwood]

Our church is currently in the second round of what we are thinking of as parish-centered ministerial preparation. Several years ago mostly by accident, we brought one young married ministerial student on board as an intern. While being immersed in the local church, he pursued his academic degree through NBC online.

(pause for shudders of disgust and fear to make their way through the Seminary community)

He spent 4 years with us growing up in his marriage, in his knowledge of and appreciation for all facets of local church ministry, in his leadership skills, and in his academic knowledge.

It has caused us to wonder if ministerial students would be better prepared for ministry if the local church was their primary context of preparation and the classroom a supporting context. It occurs to us that this may be a superior model to the traditional approach of immersion in the classroom for 7 years while taking occasional dips into the local church (via internships, SME, etc.)

We have three more right now moving through a little more developed model. This is allowing us to provide a little more of what students experience in a classroom community while still immersing them in local church ministry and leadership.

The modules and online options now being offered at NTS are giving students more options to stay immersed in ministry while experiencing a full-orbed theological education. I know NTS has moved moved this direction begrudgingly due to competition from other seminaries, but having embraced it they are making it work.

[Steven Kochersperger]

Strange to me that some people think that NTS students and grads do not like NBC. I have found that most people who talk bad about NTS have never experienced it. It really is a sad discussion we are having.

[William Hunter]

I believe pastors should be as academically prepared for the ministry as possible. NTS should be part of that process. While I did not attend NTS I have a few Master degrees and have worked toward a Ph.D. All of this has helped me be a better pastor in this culture in which we live.

Also, continuing ed. such as New Church University, prayer conf. like those put on by Harvest Prayer Ministries and Church Prayer Leader's Network are absolutely essential to help us put our formal training where the rubber meets the road. Then, too, is the constant effort to learn by having a well rounded reading program each year.

I do not believe it is possible to have too much ed. as a pastor. But it does take the wisdom of God to know how to use it. Ed. is just the collection of information without the wisdom to properly use it.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Our church is currently in the second round of what we are thinking of as parish-centered ministerial preparation. Several years ago mostly by accident, we brought one young married ministerial student on board as an intern. While being immersed in the local church, he pursued his academic degree through NBC online.

(pause for shudders of disgust and fear to make their way through the Seminary community)

He spent 4 years with us growing up in his marriage, in his knowledge of and appreciation for all facets of local church ministry, in his leadership skills, and in his academic knowledge.

It has caused us to wonder if ministerial students would be better prepared for ministry if the local church was their primary context of preparation and the classroom a supporting context. It occurs to us that this may be a superior model to the traditional approach of immersion in the classroom for 7 years while taking occasional dips into the local church (via internships, SME, etc.)

We have three more right now moving through a little more developed model. This is allowing us to provide a little more of what students experience in a classroom community while still immersing them in local church ministry and leadership.

The modules and online options now being offered at NTS are giving students more options to stay immersed in ministry while experiencing a full-orbed theological education. I know NTS has moved moved this direction begrudgingly due to competition from other seminaries, but having embraced it they are making it work.


Contextualized education/training is the best, all things considered. When is considering all things, one has to note educating personnel, library facilities, community atmosphere, classroom environment, duration of program, scheduling, and likely many other things. At one time I served as director of a district ministerial program with over two hundred students taking classes in five languages, offering classes in five different states. That program had amazing contextual class instructors, but frankly it could not compare with the influence of classroom environment of NTS or NBC. It is strong on context, but slight on other important influences. Of the two hundred plus students, probably fewer than a dozen could have practically enrolled at either NTS or NBC - at that time. Most district run programs are terribly longterm. It gives a whole new meaning to the concept of continuing education.

While we had that effort going, we strongly encouraged those who could to attend our regional college, NBC, and NTS. Several students who began in the district program wound up transferring to one or more of those institutions. Surely there is room in the Church of the Nazarene for all those options - and now even more. Those I feel most for are those whose educational experience has very little contextual application. There's nothing quite like working in the field to make the classroom experience come alive.

[Ryan Scott]

The modules and online options now being offered at NTS are giving students more options to stay immersed in ministry while experiencing a full-orbed theological education. I know NTS has moved moved this direction begrudgingly due to competition from other seminaries, but having embraced it they are making it work.


I don't recall it being grudgingly; other than some professors having to change some of their habits to properly conduct an online class. It has only been in the last couple years that the Association of Theological Schools would allow any online classes from an ATS accredited institution. As soon as some measure was allowed, NTS has embraced it rather thoroughly and with speed.

My guess is that ATS moved grudgingly in the direction of online education as a result of competition from regionally accredited graduate programs at other institutions. As far as I know, the schools were very much in favor of exploring that option.

As for NBC's online program. I know some great people who have done well; I'll be in Colorado in a couple of weeks to celebrate the graduation of one. However, those students have told me, the value of their NBC education was what they put in to the program and not what the program expected of them. I suspect, like anything, there is much room for growth.

I tend to judge an academic institution by the quality of education received by the lowest ranked graduates. Good students will be good students anywhere; a quality school makes poor students into good students.

[Scott Sherwood]

Strange to me that some people think that NTS students and grads do not like NBC. I have found that most people who talk bad about NTS have never experienced it. It really is a sad discussion we are having.

I have an M.Div. from NTS and if I can cut the mustard will hopefully earn a D.Min there. I hope I am not seen to be one talking bad about NTS. I would hope that those who train leaders to think critically about the church they serve would find it profitable to receive the benefits of that critical thinking. Most, if not all, of my criticisms of academia focus on their criticisms of others which I find to be often myopic, unfair and sometimes even elitist. My reactions to the academic community go way beyond NTS, which is home to some great churchmen and women who have taught me much and with whom I have disagreed much. My exposure to the academic community has come through undergrad professors from University of Chicago, Emory, etc., adjunct professors, guest lecturers, and a fair amount of reading beyond required reading lists.

I have never heard NTS students and grads say they do not like NBC, but I have heard many say that it offers a sub-par theological education tempts many potential seminarians to settle for less than they could have had. This may be a fair criticism, even though I think it is not. The point is that the criticism gets made. If you would like a case in point, ask a graduating seminarian what they think about a D.S. who prefers Bible College grads.

[Scott Sherwood]

I don't recall it being grudgingly; other than some professors having to change some of their habits to properly conduct an online class. .

I was there in 94,95,96 when some accredited seminaries were beginning to offer M.Div. courses via modules, directed study. The conversation in the classrooms at NTS universally centered on the subpar nature of this type of learning. I was not around as much for the discussion that led to the online classes being offered, because by that time I was only on campus for modules that NTS began offering in the late 90's. begrudgingly.

I'm pretty sure most on campus at NTS would still advise those who can to move to KC to complete their studies. Why else would someone be allowed to begin an on-campus M.Div. right out of college but not be allowed to be an official M.Div. module student until after being in ministry for several years. They want to make sure that students right out of college don't opt for the module route too quickly. This is not a critique, necessarily as much as an observation.

[Scott Sherwood]

I was with a church official recently who was suggesting that there should be some practical experience requirements to ordination. He mentioned several requirements but the one that stuck in my mind was that he suggested that a person shouldn't be ordained until they have been present when someone dies.


In the Horn of Africa field, in order to qualify for ordination one must have planted a church that has planted a church. Perhaps that would be start? :)

[Hans Deventer]

But, I'm sure you agree, Hans, that
1. just because someone says they're called, yet does not seek to get tools to assist himself/herself in better carrying out they're calling does not mean that they will be as useful.

Agreed. But there is a difference. With the gifts and without the education, you'll be less useful. Without the gifts and with as much education as you want, you're far less usefull than the other way around.

A good education is great for one being called and having the gifts.

Like learning to play the piano - good training will certainly make you a better musician. But if you have no musicality, you're going nowhere despite whatever training you get.

Also, I'm not too optimistic about the general theological knowledge in the pews, but I will state that I believe we need the expression of God's love through our lives far more badly. If love covers a multitude of sins, surely it will cover some ignorance as well.

[Dennis M. Scott]

I think Charles' requirement of being a lifelong learner is the important qualification. I think my hesitation with the local programs is the wide variety of quality contained therein. I think my advocating more official academic preparation is really a cry for more oversight of the local programs. Some districts do this extremely well; others, not so much.


Hopefully, your undergraduate and NTS experience will help at two points:
1 - Enable you to work better than sub-standard quality that may be offered at some district level. Whether you continue institutionally or informally, the base already now established can be built upon.
2 - You can help make a difference. Well-trained NTS graduates around the world are constantly helping to raise the level of local/district/regional training by being high quality instructors. Come be a part of the solution.

[Roy Richardson]

I was in a group of pastors and lay people recently and the discussion was focused around ministerial education and development. At one point, a pastor said that Nazarene Theological Seminary (NTS) was for those who wanted to teach (higher education) and that if someone wants to pastor s/he would naturally stay local and go through the district ministerial development program or perhaps study at a local seminary.

I was surprised and even caught off-guard by this notion.

Does this understanding of NTS reflect the majority out there - that it's just for those who want to teach in a classroom?

I've only been gone for two years or so, but I don't believe it's the notion at NTS, not at all.


I hope not, or I am wasting thousands of $$ at NTS

[Billy Cox]

In the Horn of Africa field, in order to qualify for ordination one must have planted a church that has planted a church. Perhaps that would be start? :)

Yeah...of course in the USA that's like saying you have to have preached at least one sermon series on the Beatitudes and one sermon series on the Fruit of the Spirit. In other words, almost every pastor with a pulse has done it. :basic01

It seems that a church planting requirement in the Horn of Africa is so minimal as to be laughable. :basic05

[Billy Cox]

Charles,

I don't think we differ much. My primary points are twofold:
1 - there are cultures and places - in the US and elsewhere - where an M. Div. would serve no purpose. Granted, most Nazarene North American congregations would benefit - IMO - from having a pastor with an NTS M. Div. I am so disappointed, apparently I have not been writing in a manner that Anne can read - and she seemed to like to like what I write.
2 - Worldwide, making an M. Div. would mean obviusly that tens of thousands of indigenous pastors would never be ordained. Many of those pastors are used mightily of God and meet every other appropriate qualification for ordination, and should not be barred thusly.

If a DS and local church wants to only consider M. Div. holders, that is certainly appropriate, but to make it a universal requirement is going where we don't need to go. We're simply not that kind of denomination, and we would do well to resist such a direction. If other denominations want to serve that kind of elitist populations, perhaps the Lord is leading them there. Hopefully there will always be a seat for the humble and the poor in the COTN - and a pulpit as well. Yes, I surely know one can be humble, poor, and an NTS graduate. It is also possible to be rich, proud, an NTS grad and ineffective in ministry. Ordination should be based on ministry effectiveness, not academic achievement alone. None of us are calling for that.


I think that a discussion of what ordination is would be helpful. In a perfect world, ordination in Botswana would be the same as ordination in Boston, but it's really not... is it?? (not a rhetorical question)

[Ryan Scott]

Hopefully, your undergraduate and NTS experience will help at two points:
1 - Enable you to work better than sub-standard quality that may be offered at some district level. Whether you continue institutionally or informally, the base already now established can be built upon.
2 - You can help make a difference. Well-trained NTS graduates around the world are constantly helping to raise the level of local/district/regional training by being high quality instructors. Come be a part of the solution.


I'd love to, although my limited experience has been that districts with this attitude are not the ones who need the help.

I know your district takes all of these issues we've been discussing incredibly serious; its another reason that it's such a desirable place for me after graduation (less than 13 months now; I can hardly believe it).

[Dennis M. Scott]

I think that a discussion of what ordination is would be helpful. In a perfect world, ordination in Botswana would be the same as ordination in Boston, but it's really not... is it?? (not a rhetorical question)


What???

Yet another call for discussion on what ordination is?? :rolleyes:


My opinion is that Nazarene ordination in Botswana and Boston should/could be the same - maybe different music, maybe not. If we want different additional requirements for clergy, perhaps allright. But why shouldn't ordination be the same? Also, we need to ask: Haitian first generation immigration to the US, Haitian subsequent generation, Korean, Cambodian US, Cambodian Southeast Asia, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Salvadoran, Cape Verdean, Brazilian, Jamaican, displaced Vermonter, inner city Boston, Harvard and MIT, Pakistani, and Southern Ohio? Not only are all of those groups in Boston, but we have one church in Boston that has representatives of all those groups. Should ordination be the same? I think so, but it also seems academic needs might vary a bit. Hence, my suggestion that academic things might be considered outside the ordination part. I am, however, open.

So, in part the discussion should include the divergent culture consideration. Along what lines does ordination require uniformity?

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

I was talking about my opinion in general, of lots of things that I have read on Naznet.

I know one person that never, to my knowledge worked on any education for the ministry, but he was fine for the place where he ministered for years, and is a very godly person. There may be a few places, such as that. I feel it is good, for our ministers to have at least a four year degree, if at all possible.

Also, many people were raised in parsonages, and learned so much as they were growing up.

I know what the Bible says, but, there are really cases, where the minister should do lots of visiting. There have been people, that we have all but lived with, even though Dwayne was working, or going through, a building program at times.
We were so busy, that he never finished his Master's at the University of Memphis. In the USAF, he made equivalent to two years of college, when he was tested, and could have gone to the Armed Forces Institute, or whatever it is called, as a third year student, when he got out. He also, had much first hand training, as he grew up with his father, that was ordained, and had a degree in Behavioral Science. Things like this, need to be considered also.
I don't remember thinking of you in the way. I love all of you little "younguns", as a dear friend of ours use to say.

I have a dry sense of humor, and I am aware, that I have not "arrived" myself, yet. He's still working on me.

Someone very near to me in my life, was bad to speak, as if someone was ignorant, and I don't like to hear words like that. God, helped me to realize with our young son in laws, years ago, that they were not ignorant, they just had not experienced some things that we had But, they might could have then, or now, taught us a thing or two. They are two of the finest young men in the world, and our grandchildren have wonderful fathers.

We will sit down and talk an eon or two someday, with our feet in the river of life, and if we have a memory at all of earth, we will laugh about these things, then-maybe.

[Marsha Lynn]

1. I believe the assumption that NTS Graduates are not adequately prepared to pastor is a common one.

2. I believe that some NTS Graduates have demonstrated that, at least to some extent, the assumption is correct.

3. I believe that NTS has not done all that it can to dispell the assumption.

In stating these beliefs, I am certainly not expressing an opinion that graduates of NBC, those who enter the pastorate directly from one of our liberal arts schools, or those who complete a district sponsored ministerial education program are better prepared.

I have heard NTS graduates say from the puplit, "Nothing in my ministerial education prepared me to be pastor of this church." Usually they were talking about financial issues, but sometimes they were talking about such things as chairing a board meeting.

Can't every educated person working in their field say the same thing? I actually said it to the prof of my library science class a few weeks ago. As library director, I had removed a live snake from the book return box the evening before. Now, I don't actually have a degree in library science, but I'm pretty sure that "pest removal" is not a featured part of any library science class. (And there are more "pests" in public libraries than just the slithery kind.) Nor do the classes cover areas such as preparing and overseeing a budget, developing and maintaining healthy relationships with a governing board and facilitating productive meetings of that entity, or effectively coordinating the work of volunteers -- all similar to challenges faced by a pastor. However, once a library science graduate moves into a specific field (academic, public, school, or specialty library) and actually figures out what he or she needs to learn, there will be workshops and continuing education opportunities for these "nuts and bolts" challenges. (I'm still not sure where to find training for snake-handling -- maybe in the church? :p)

[Jeffrey Sykes]

I've tried to keep my distance from this conversation given my proximity to NTS, but at this point I feel like I should address your concern based not on my affiliation with NTS but the fact that several of the faculty members are also members of the local congregation I attend.

I think the life of a faculty member of any institution (NTS, or any undergraduate) is made difficult because they function in several roles simultaneously. First, like any other follower of Christ, they are a part of that body. Theologically, this means that they are equal to any other follower of Christ in the church regardless of their education. I think to a person, the faculty at NTS embody this belief. Five current members of the faculty and three former members of the faculty attend my church. They regularly participate in the life of the body. Honestly, it is refreshing to be part of a parenting class with a faculty member who is working through issues similar to me.

Secondly, the faculty members function as persons serving the church through teaching. The faculty care passionately about their areas of interest. Moreover, they study diligently so that they can be adequately prepared to teach. If the church recognizes that these persons have the gift of teaching (this recognition is implicit in the approval of faculty by the BGS), shouldn't we allow these persons to exercise the gifts that God has given them? Moreover, does this recognition, coupled with extensive preparation give the faculty at least some authority (as long as it is coupled with personal integrity)? Does the training a faculty member receives give them qualifications which might give their ideas on some issues additional weight? Do years of study give more weight to the option of a faculty member than the off the cuff opinion of a person who hasn't submitted to the same discipline? Do we take the opinion of a physician with greater weight than that given to a non-physician when it comes to what medicines will help us recover from an illness?

Going back to the metaphor I indicated earlier, if we are all a part of the body, can the hand say to the brain (or whatever part of the body you want to identify with faculty) I have no need of you? My fear is that persons have no idea that those on the faculty don't or wouldn't say to the hand or the feet or any other part of the body that they don't need them. Depending on the context that same faculty member who functions academically during the week may be pulling weeds around the church on a Saturday morning.

Let me ask this question: what would you say to a person who feels they have the gift of teaching, but not necessarily all the gifts necessary for parish ministry? Would you tell them that because they do not feel that God has gifted them for parish ministry that they should not study theology or pursue a teaching position in the church? Would we want to say that laity should not educate clergy? Should I forget about pursing graduate study because I'm doomed to become some ivory tower egg-headed professor? If so, I'd really like to avoid doing a Ph.D. or Th.D. They are pretty expensive and if the church thinks I shouldn't teach, I'd rather know now.

--JS

PS In full disclosure, I work at NTS as the Director of Information Technology. I'm also a graduate (M.A. Theological Studies '03).

[Jeffrey Sykes]

Since I've already broken into this discussion, one of the things that NTS is working on doing is making theological education in context (read as not taking a person out of their local context) more practical. There are a number of courses that are available wholly online. Additionally, you can take courses in a one or two week concentrated format.

I pray that God will bless you both in the preparation and work of your ministry.

--JS

[Jeffrey Sykes]

Scott,

You are correct that there used to be a requirement for In-Service students to have time in ministry. This requirement is no longer in place. Just to be sure I confirmed this through the website (http://www.nts.edu/in-service) and through a personal conversation with the admissions staff.

--JS

[Glenda Harvey]

I guess this shows my bias; however, I don't believe a person should be Ordained without an education equivalent to a Wesleyan institution based M.Div.

This observation is based on the attitudes of the large number of Bachelor level ministerial student I have observed.

I'm not sure if this is practical. Private Christian Universities and Seminaries are expensive and it is very difficult for a someone strapped with large student loans to manage on the salaries that most Pastors make.

[Ryan Scott]

I'm not sure if this is practical. Private Christian Universities and Seminaries are expensive and it is very difficult for a someone strapped with large student loans to manage on the salaries that most Pastors make.


While that is entirely true, the solution should not be sacrificing education.

[David Pettigrew]

Is there something wrong with you people?

Seriously, did you hear what Marsha said? SHE REMOVED A SNAKE FROM A BOOK RETURN!!!!

Are you kidding me? If I found a snake in the library book return, you'd hear me talking in tongues from three blocks away as I was hoofing it down the street. A bomb threat seems minimal in comparison.

Whoa. Somebody must have been really, really mad that Harry Potter was checked out again.

Edited to add: Marsha, please tell me that is a fly swatter in your hand.

[Roy Richardson]

Since I've already broken into this discussion, one of the things that NTS is working on doing is making theological education in context (read as not taking a person out of their local context) more practical. There are a number of courses that are available wholly online. Additionally, you can take courses in a one or two week concentrated format.

I pray that God will bless you both in the preparation and work of your ministry.

--JS

Jeff, Welcome to the board. As one who is taking the modular/online classes, I am grateful for that option.

[Cindi Hammons]

Worldwide, making an M. Div. would mean obviusly that tens of thousands of indigenous pastors would never be ordained.

Not only that, much of Appalachia, or other poorer regions in the US would lose a large group of pastors (not just Nazarene...just churches).

I am a proponent of advanced education. I think pastors should have it if it is feasible. However, it is very difficult to bring that kind of debt with pastors and then expect them to pastor in the poor regions with very poor salaries. It's just not going to happen.

[Cindi Hammons]

Okay, I'm with you there David! I cringed when she posted the picture. Don't know it it was a flyswatter, but if it were me, I would have been wearing a full set of medieval armor and had a 10 foot jousting pole to remove that snake.

[Marsha Lynn]

Along these lines, there's also a matter of matching church and pastor. How many seminary-trained pastors will find it easy to enjoy fellowship and good communication and grow together with a congregation in a community where few adults have ever stepped into a college classroom? How large an education gap between pastor and parishioners is acceptable?

Not that education is ever a bad thing, but it takes a special gift for someone who has a full grasp of the meaning of words such as "hermeneutics" and "ontology" to never, ever use them unless there's a compelling reason to add them to the congregation's working vocabulary. Even then, those "essential" vocabulary words must be defined again and again as the church grows because no new person walking through the doors is likely to be familiar with them.

The educated pastor also has to be aware of how far the minds (faith) of a less-educated congregation can be stretched. Battles must be chosen carefully, sacred cows dismantled with great patience and delicacy over a long period of time. It seems to me that spending too long in a place of intellectual freedom and love for learning would make the transition into a church of less-enlightened elders with strong convictions quite painful for a young seminarian. Does NTS offer classes on tactfulness toward and love and respect for narrow-minded people of faith?

Not only that, much of Appalachia, or other poorer regions in the US would lose a large group of pastors (not just Nazarene...just churches).

I am a proponent of advanced education. I think pastors should have it if it is feasible. However, it is very difficult to bring that kind of debt with pastors and then expect them to pastor in the poor regions with very poor salaries. It's just not going to happen.

[Susan Unger]

Is there something wrong with you people?

Seriously, did you hear what Marsha said? SHE REMOVED A SNAKE FROM A BOOK RETURN!!!!

Are you kidding me? If I found a snake in the library book return, you'd hear me talking in tongues from three blocks away as I was hoofing it down the street. A bomb threat seems minimal in comparison.

Whoa. Somebody must have been really, really mad that Harry Potter was checked out again.

Edited to add: Marsha, please tell me that is a fly swatter in your hand.

I was too horrified to respond. Actually, when the thread first opened up last night, my first view was of the snake. I gave a jolt of horror and then quickly closed the thread and when on to something else. Then I wondered what the spiritual application was about a snake :o

[Ryan Scott]

How large an education gap between pastor and parishioners is acceptable?


I think the more important issue is whether the pastor can effectively bridge whatever gap exists (be it large or small).

[Jeffrey Sykes]

I think your first question is a very good one. It seems to me that the DS and the church board should work together to insure that any candidates for a position are appropriate matches. At the same time, I know there are realities where a DS is pressed to get a warm body in the pulpit.

On the question of language, I agree with you that the Sunday sermon is probably the wrong time to teach people about epistemology, ontology, hermeneutics, etc. At the same time, these concepts may be appropriate in certain teaching contexts, but language should never become some kind of weapon or tool that is used to show that one person is "smarter" than another. At the same time, a teacher can offer to explain some things in non-threatening ways and the students can decide if that is useful or useless information... In a teaching environment characterized by genuine dialog, everyone can learn from each other. An older layperson might learn some language, and the clergy person might learn something about graciousness and prayer.

I agree with the title and sentiment of Ruben Welch's book. We really do need each other.

I can only speak about my experience at NTS. While the curriculum doesn't include specific courses about tact and treating persons with respect, professors do advocate for that kind of behavior. They also model this kind of behavior when they deal with students who start from all kinds of different places. NTS students are not a homogeneous group of people. Some students come from undergraduate religion programs. Other students come as second career adults with backgrounds that include undergraduate degrees in things like chemistry with little formal education in theology, the Bible, or philosophy. Given this reality, students are at different places and sometimes professors have to work to stretch the minds of students. In my experience this happens in a loving and gentle way.

At the same time, sometimes professors forcefully correct some ideas. I've seen professors forcefully (yet lovingly) try to help students see why some ideas can be destructive or problematic. I think that these times are important.

I think part of the problem is that, depending on the person, their maturity level may be an issue. If a NTS student is immature (How can some persons avoid this when they are 25 or 26 when they leave?) when they leave, they may do more damage than good. That being the case, is NTS the problem or is there something else that is going on with our system of ministerial preparation?

My contention would be that the Church of the Nazarene does not always do a good job of helping people understand their own gifts and graces along with their personal strengths/weaknesses. In the recent past, NTS has begun doing psychological testing and assessment of incoming students to help them to understand these kinds of things about themselves. In addition, NTS actively asks questions about the suitability of certain persons for ministry. For reasons of privacy I cannot say much more than that, but know that the faculty and the administration take this kind of thing very seriously.

As someone privy to many conversations I cannot repeat, we struggle with some of the same issues that you mention here. We do not want students to leave NTS and hurt people or self-destruct. It seems this might be a problem we have in general with younger persons though... How much grace can we give to people who are still maturing? I think part of what we help people understand themselves and trust God that he will continue to work on students who leave NTS...

I'm reminded of a student that was here during my time at NTS. He was quite possibly the most ambitious, bombastic person I knew during my time here. He left and began ministry (despite people telling him he needed to mature). The first years of his ministry were rocky and characterized by some of the behavior that you mention. Yet somehow, maybe even in spite of the person in question, God had gotten through to this pastor. He recently passed up a more prestigious (and better paying) position to keep working where he had been. He is seeing spiritual growth in himself and in his congregation. I'm not sure how these types of things happen, but I think I know two things about the situation. First, this person is better prepared to teach and preach the Word because they were at NTS. If they had not been here, they would have been even more destructive. Second, his ministerial preparation was not finished when he left NTS. It is only through God's grace at work in a local body that he is able to minister today.

Probably too many words, but an honest attempt to answer your questions...

--JS

[Kevin Rector]

Along these lines, there's also a matter of matching church and pastor. How many seminary-trained pastors will find it easy to enjoy fellowship and good communication and grow together with a congregation in a community where few adults have ever stepped into a college classroom? How large an education gap between pastor and parishioners is acceptable?

I have a MA in religion from Trevecca and Andrea has a MSW from the University of Illinois. Most of the rest of my congregation never went to college, So Marsha I'm sort of living what you describe.

I view one of my primary roles within the congregation as that of practical theologian. That is, it is a function of my position as pastor to bridge that gap between the academy and every day life. Said another way, my role is to help the body understand the theological implications of the decisions we make and the actions we live so hopefully all we do end up being in line with the nature and will of God. So, to some degree, this gap is vital because if I don't have the theological training, how could I ever fulfill this role?

Having said that, it's ultimately true that I can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge but if I don't have love then I am nothing.

So this role requires two fundamental things, solid theological training (and ability to contextual the principles learned in that training to daily life) and love (which manifests as patience, kindness, gentleness, and graciousness). If either of these are missing then no pastor will be able to adequately fulfill the role of practical theologian and the life of the church will be diminished.

[Billy Cox]

Not only that, much of Appalachia, or other poorer regions in the US would lose a large group of pastors (not just Nazarene...just churches).

I am a proponent of advanced education. I think pastors should have it if it is feasible. However, it is very difficult to bring that kind of debt with pastors and then expect them to pastor in the poor regions with very poor salaries. It's just not going to happen.

I know that it's not cool for Nazarenes to stoop to considering what less holy denominations are doing, but I wonder how denominations requiring an MDiv for ordination manage to have a presence in poor areas of the USA.

I am suggesting that there is a better solution for serving *all* socioeconomic classes than simply lowering our standards. A failure of imagination is not a very good excuse for having a separate clergy for the poor people.

[Hal Paul]

It's just a common garter snake, what's the big deal?

[Jeffrey Sykes]

I found an interesting article today on Christian Century titled "Choosing a Seminary (http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=4742)." Are there things that you would add to this article? Do you agree with the basic ideas? Are there things here which don't apply to the Church of the Nazarene?

Just wondering,

--JS

[Cindi Hammons]

I know that it's not cool for Nazarenes to stoop to considering what less holy denominations are doing, but I wonder how denominations requiring an MDiv for ordination manage to have a presence in poor areas of the USA.

I am suggesting that there is a better solution for serving *all* socioeconomic classes than simply lowering our standards. A failure of imagination is not a very good excuse for having a separate clergy for the poor people.

I can tell you from my experience on the "edge" of some very poor areas, that most denoms requiring higher education are based within the towns. For instance, there is one Lutheran Church in our county, and it is in town. To count up the number of Free Will Baptist, Missionary Baptist, etc., would be a very large number...mostly NOT in town. The large Presbyterian Church is also in the town. I don't know of any other in our county. The Catholic Churches (save one) are all in town. The Episcopal Church...in town. The only churches I can think of that are not in town are all small non-denominationals, independents, some sort of Baptist, very small Methodists, a couple CCCU, and 3 Nazarenes...off the top of my head. Our county is the most populous is the region, so I think it gives a pretty good example of the region.

Billy, I agree with you that there shouldn't be two sets of standards. But, I don't know the answer. I also know that Appalachia is a strange place...seriously. I always thought the old view of "not taking kindly to outsiders" was an old worn out view from decades ago. I have found out recently that the belief is still going strong...sadly.

Also, keep in mind, I was talking about churches in general when I made my first statement...not solely the CON.

[Susan Unger]

It's just a common garter snake, what's the big deal?

I'm terrified of all snakes...used to have nightmares about them when I was in elementary school.

[Susan Unger]

I found an interesting article today on Christian Century titled "Choosing a Seminary (http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=4742)." Are there things that you would add to this article? Do you agree with the basic ideas? Are there things here which don't apply to the Church of the Nazarene?

Just wondering,

--JS

I liked her conclusion.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

We have one COTN where white people attend in the Memphis City limits and about 10 black ones. The two larges COTN churches are in the county.

[David Pettigrew]

It's just a common garter snake, what's the big deal?

Yeah, but there was only one problem - it wasn't dead.

[Hal Paul]

I'm terrified of all snakes...used to have nightmares about them when I was in elementary school.

Yeah, but there was only one problem - it wasn't dead.

You'll probably notice in Dave McClung's post asking what type of snake he saw when hiking, that I mentioned having a near heart attack after almost stepping on a bull snake. Quite an adrenalin rush since at first glance bull's look a lot like a diamond back rattle snake. Garter snakes on the other hand are fun to catch and can almost make a decent pet, if only Mom would let them in the house.

[Marsha Lynn]

Marsha, please tell me that is a fly swatter in your hand.

OK. That's a fly swatter. I have learned from past experience with garter snake intruders (two encounters) that, when disturbed, they will look for a dark place to hide. A fly swatter works well for disturbing them and a paper bag makes a good place to hide. However, it was only 40 degrees by the time I got there, meaning I had to scrape it into the bag because it wasn't moving.

All of my earliest career plans involved animals and I'm not afraid of snakes, but I was just as glad to be the one removing a known snake intruder rather than the one surprised to discover it while attempting to remove the books. That person shrieked, slammed the door shut and locked it, and threatened to resign.

There are several similarities between being a library director and being a pastor. One of those is that the librarian's job description includes any job that needs to be done and no one else is willing to do. :rolleyes:

My husband at least agreed to accompany me for my snake removal mission and was behind the camera (far behind me with a zoom lens), but his basic reaction is pretty much the same as yours.

Marsha

[Eric Frey]

15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


O Ye of little faith

[Mike Schutz]

Amazing how a thread on the effectiveness of NTS in preparing people for effective ministry as become a thread on snake handling.

We Nazarenes are still "a peculiar people."

[Ken Pell]

Amazing how a thread on the effectiveness of NTS in preparing people for effective ministry as become a thread on snake handling.

We Nazarenes are still "a peculiar people."

Aren't they related topics? :basic03 :laughing :eek:

[Marsha Lynn]

I appreciate this post, Kevin. From what I know of you and your ministry, I think you are effectively "bridging the gap."

I know a pastor who didn't go to seminary but has a degree in religion from a Nazarene school. More than once, I have heard him say to someone discussing theological issues with him, "The difference between you and me is that I have been trained in this area." Case closed.

One of the times this happened, he was talking to a young man who was fully aware of the inadequacy of his education and struggling to "catch up." He found a TV preacher who promised to teach him hidden secrets from the Bible and give him a leg up on the biblical knowledge of those around him. Given the choice between the church with a pastor who pulled out his college diploma to support his authority over lowly commoners such as this man on all things theological and one with a leader who promised to introduce him into the company of the elite, you might be able to guess which he chose.

That's an extreme case, I know, but I suspect the mindset behind the statement with which Jeremy started this thread is that seminary training can set a person up too high to ever tune in to the practical everyday needs of a local congregation and walk alongside those people in their spiritual quest. I don't agree with that sentiment, but I can understand it.

Marsha

I have a MA in religion from Trevecca and Andrea has a MSW from the University of Illinois. Most of the rest of my congregation never went to college, So Marsha I'm sort of living what you describe.

I view one of my primary roles within the congregation as that of practical theologian. That is, it is a function of my position as pastor to bridge that gap between the academy and every day life. Said another way, my role is to help the body understand the theological implications of the decisions we make and the actions we live so hopefully all we do end up being in line with the nature and will of God. So, to some degree, this gap is vital because if I don't have the theological training, how could I ever fulfill this role?

Having said that, it's ultimately true that I can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge but if I don't have love then I am nothing.

So this role requires two fundamental things, solid theological training (and ability to contextual the principles learned in that training to daily life) and love (which manifests as patience, kindness, gentleness, and graciousness). If either of these are missing then no pastor will be able to adequately fulfill the role of practical theologian and the life of the church will be diminished.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Along these lines, there's also a matter of matching church and pastor. How many seminary-trained pastors will find it easy to enjoy fellowship and good communication and grow together with a congregation in a community where few adults have ever stepped into a college classroom? How large an education gap between pastor and parishioners is acceptable?

Not that education is ever a bad thing, but it takes a special gift for someone who has a full grasp of the meaning of words such as "hermeneutics" and "ontology" to never, ever use them unless there's a compelling reason to add them to the congregation's working vocabulary. Even then, those "essential" vocabulary words must be defined again and again as the church grows because no new person walking through the doors is likely to be familiar with them.

The educated pastor also has to be aware of how far the minds (faith) of a less-educated congregation can be stretched. Battles must be chosen carefully, sacred cows dismantled with great patience and delicacy over a long period of time. It seems to me that spending too long in a place of intellectual freedom and love for learning would make the transition into a church of less-enlightened elders with strong convictions quite painful for a young seminarian. Does NTS offer classes on tactfulness toward and love and respect for narrow-minded people of faith?


Marsha, you have characteristically penned a most meaningful and helpful post. This would make a great discussion starter in a seminar on transitioning from higher education to pastoral ministry.

People go to seminary. People come out of seminary. People have quirks, and they are not made less human by seminary. All pastors benefit from reading Dale Carnegie, but I'm not certain it's something we should expect from a graduate school of theology. At the same time, a seminary degree is not a prerequisite for reading Carnegie.

When pastors are installed, usually there is some sort of ritual, in part to encourage bonding and a meaningful relationship between pastor and people. In New England, usually gifts are also offered to the pastor. Usually there is a hymnal, perhaps a Bible, and even a Manual. If it weren't so "in your face", I've often thought it would be good to give a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Often subsequent developments reveal that somewhere along the line, those concepts were either missed or forgotten. Equally unfortunate, sometimes persons feel like those concepts are either manipulative or beneath them. Decades ago - way before my time - that text was actually included in the course of study for ministers. I'm not sure what it means that it is no longer included.

[Susan Unger]

15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


O Ye of little faith

yeah, yeah, yeah,.....if I had a lame button I'd use it here ! :laughing

[Ken Pell]

wow! These last two posts (Marsha & Dennis) were excellent!

I sometimes think it takes about 5-7 years for seminary grads (myself included) to make the transition from academia to parish ministry. The way I interact, serve, dialog, and perceive people / problems / circumstances certainly went through a helpful and healthy transition in about that time frame. There was a lot that went into that which I will not bore you with. But suffice it to say I am a better pastor because of seminary and a better pastor even yet when I was finally able to move past seminary. for me, one could not happen without the other.

I do not think all pastor's need graduate work. Some are more advanced for whatever reason. But it became apparent to me early on that I needed more resources that my undergrad degree provided me. academia, time, colleagues, and experience have proven to be wonderful mentors.

[Eric Frey]

Could I recommend a couple of books that were really helpful in making the transition?

1) Open Secrets by Richard Lischer. He is a prof. of NT (I believe) at Duke Divintiy, but between PhD and Teaching he pastored a small parish in rural Illinois. It is a memoir of his experience and lessons learned. A MUST READ for seminary grads going iinto parish ministry, especially small, rural parishes.
http://www.amazon.com/Open-Secrets-Memoir-Faith-Discovery/dp/0767907442/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210350418&sr=8-1

2) Dresser of Sycamore Trees by Garrett Keiser. He is a school teacher who became the lay pastor of a small Episcople parish in Vermont. It really looks at the heart of parish ministry.

http://www.amazon.com/Open-Secrets-Memoir-Faith-Discovery/dp/0767907442/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210350418&sr=8-1

[Ryan Scott]

I know a pastor who didn't go to seminary but has a degree in religion from a Nazarene school. More than once, I have heard him say to someone discussing theological issues with him, "The difference between you and me is that I have been trained in this area." Case closed.


Funny. My experience has been that the more education I have the less I am willing to believe I know what I'm talking about.

[Gina Stevenson]

15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


O Ye of little faith

Well, since the Body is supposed to work together, with different parts [not all alike, thank goodness!], I'll let someone else be the snake handler, poison drinker, and hope I can just be the one who places their hands on sick people ... forget the snakes & poison! :eek: :laughing

Funny. My experience has been that the more education I have the less I am willing to believe I know what I'm talking about.


Tho't that's what Marsha was trying to say, Ryan ... that this guy was speaking in an authoritarian style [sans seminary], to pump up his own feelings of inadequacy, having not gone to seminary, but wanting [both himself & others] to believe he had all he needed from the undergrad degree, maybe?

Another one of those things where two people can read the same thing & glean something different from it ... depending on their filters, eh? ;)

[Susan Unger]

You'll probably notice in Dave McClung's post asking what type of snake he saw when hiking, that I mentioned having a near heart attack after almost stepping on a bull snake. Quite an adrenalin rush since at first glance bull's look a lot like a diamond back rattle snake. Garter snakes on the other hand are fun to catch and can almost make a decent pet, if only Mom would let them in the house.

Well, keep in mind....Mothers always knows best!

[Hal Paul]

Well, keep in mind....Mothers always knows best!

I'll take your word for it.

[Wayne Paul]

I know a pastor who didn't go to seminary but has a degree in religion from a Nazarene school. More than once, I have heard him say to someone discussing theological issues with him, "The difference between you and me is that I have been trained in this area." Case closed.


Marsha,

Having served as the Registrar at a Nazarene school I have observed the academic progress of many ministerial students. (In many cases the term student is used loosely.) I really would like to see your pastor’s official education transcript. Just exactly what courses did he take and the associated grades given.

I often saw student who felt they were “called” to the ministry and the educational process was nothing but a required “check in the box.” In these cases they chose the least demanding courses. In addition they only exerted the effort needed to meet the minimum standard to successfully complete the courses.

Theology is a complex subject that has challenged great minds through human existent. Its’ mastery is not, and has never been, condensed into the four year college experience.

In the U.S. there seems to be a misconception that you must go to college to be educated.

Sadly your pastor’s approach is not consistent with being well educated.

[Marsha Lynn]

I know a pastor ...

Marsha,
.......
Sadly your pastor’s approach is not consistent with being well educated.

Just to be very clear... I was not speaking of the pastor of the church I currently attend. If that were the case, I wouldn't say it on a public forum. And in the case of my pastor, it would be a total misrepresentation of his character.

In regard to the pastor friend I mentioned, while I see the sense of what you wrote, I do think it might be a little more harsh than merited. I just finished a class on children's literature. If I were to encounter an argumentative person who tried to define the various genres of children's literature and point out trends to me based on limited exposure to that body of literature, it would be more than a little tempting to pull out the authority of the textbook that occupied so many hours of my spring and the information received in class to support my own definitions and analysis. What's the point of taking a class on something if it doesn't provide tools for analysis beyond those of a less educated person?

Still, I agree that it's an indication of weakness or laziness or low regard for the other person when I fall back to the position that I don't have to fully explain or support my opinions because I picked them up from "higher authorities" to which the other person does not have access.

Marsha

[Ryan Scott]

I attended NTS commencement today. It was a wonderful time, with another 70-so graduates embarking on a new phase of the journey.

I also got a couple of comments from Faculty members about the subject of this thread. It seems we've been spotted.

[Susan Unger]

I attended NTS commencement today. It was a wonderful time, with another 70-so graduates embarking on a new phase of the journey.

I also got a couple of comments from Faculty members about the subject of this thread. It seems we've been spotted.

Congratulations!

[Hal Paul]

I was in a group of pastors and lay people recently and the discussion was focused around ministerial education and development. At one point, a pastor said that Nazarene Theological Seminary (NTS) was for those who wanted to teach (higher education) and that if someone wants to pastor s/he would naturally stay local and go through the district ministerial development program or perhaps study at a local seminary.

I was surprised and even caught off-guard by this notion.

Does this understanding of NTS reflect the majority out there - that it's just for those who want to teach in a classroom?

I've only been gone for two years or so, but I don't believe it's the notion at NTS, not at all.

I personally have not known anyone who has held this view, but, I do know some people whose pastors who have expressed similar sentiment. Since I've never heard the notion first hand, my impression is that the attitude, where it exists, is very much a minority view.

My understanding of district ministerial development programs is that they are designed for people who for some reason are unable to participate in a traditional academic program for clergy. Most pastors I know who've completed their education through a local program would have preferred to have studied in a resident program as an undergraduate and graduate student, but opportunities were limited due to personal circumstances.

I'm kind of puzzled as to why this pastor viewed NTS as a place to train educators, but somehow viewed local seminaries as a better place to train pastors. I don't quite get the reasoning that the Nazarene Seminary exists to only produce educators and that for some reason because they are closer to home, other seminaries are better equipped to train someone for pastoral ministry. I wonder if someone from the KC area was going into ministry; would that pastor counsel them to move to New England to prepare for the ministry because NTS is just for training educators?

Just speculating now, but considering the distance & cultural difference between New England and KC, s/he may have been simply advocating disrupting life as little as possible for someone who is pursuing ministry as a second career. S/he may also view that an NTS education is a prerequisite for employment as an educator in a Naz school and that a lack of NTS education is a handicap to gaining that type of employment, but that someone can pastor with an education from another institution, so it's easier to get a ministerial education closer to home. I think I have heard that sentiment expressed somewhere before.

[Hal Paul]

Even the US Military won't take a chaplain without one.

Probably should qualify this slightly:

The military considers chaplains professionals in the same manner that it considers medical doctors and attorneys to be professionals. The armed forces also do not have programs to develop, train and accredit these professionals in the number they need to meet service requirements. Like medical and law school MD/JD degrees, an M.Div from a seminary is considered requisite professional education for Chaplains. However, the military qualifies its educational requirement for Chaplains to have an M.Div by allowing for an "equivalent." It took me a while to find out what they meant by that. Basically, it is 72 hours of graduate education beyond the bachelors level in help related specialties.

My experience is that chaplains who qualify under the "equivalent" are from non-Jewish/Christian faith groups. I knew of a Muslim Chaplain who's graduate degrees were in Nursing, Counseling and-I think-Social Work. My guess is that he got a waiver for a theology specific education because the Army did not have an adequate number of chaplains to minister to soldiers who adhere to Islam and there are very few if any graduate level schools of Islamic theology in the U.S.

The interesting thing about the military requirements for chaplains is that even though the Army is short over 400 chaplains, almost 1/3 of its authorized requirements, it considers the possession of a minimum of two plus years of advanced formal education beyond the bachelors degree essential to a chaplain's effective ministry.

[Hal Paul]

but I wonder how denominations requiring an MDiv for ordination manage to have a presence in poor areas of the USA.


Back when I thought I was called to the ministry, eons ago before online study was an option, I was looking at local seminaries because I still had an obligation to the Army and wanted to start working on the academic requirements for ordination (wonder if that ties in to the original post on this thread?). One seminary that was affiliated with a denomination that required an M.Div also offered a certificate program for those who had not completed an undergraduate degree.

Basically the way it worked is that the denomination required 90 hours of graduate education in theology for ordination. All students took the M.Div curriculum, if a student held a bachelors degree, upon completion of the course of studies they were awarded an M.Div., and if the student had not completed a bachelors degree s/he was awarded the certificate. If the certificate graduate completed a bachelor's degree later, the student could petition the seminary to have the certificate converted to an M.Div.

I'm not sure how well that worked. Graduate school is hard enough even after completing a bachelor's degree, I can't imagine going from high school to graduate level theology study with no college level study as a transition, especially if there had been several years since high school graduation.

[Hans Deventer]

The interesting thing about the military requirements for chaplains is that even though the Army is short over 400 chaplains, almost 1/3 of its authorized requirements, it considers the possession of a minimum of two plus years of advanced formal education beyond the bachelors degree essential to a chaplain's effective ministry.

I sure am glad the Lord didn't use those requirements when He chose the twelve.

[Jeffrey Sykes]

An interesting note is that something like 51% of Nazarene Chaplains have an NTS M.Div.

--JS

[Jeffrey Sykes]

I've been curious about this post for some time. I have a few questions:

1) What does an adequately prepared minister look like? Does that mean that any new minister should be prepared in the same way that someone who has 20 years of experience is?

2) What kind of church do graduates need preperation for to be considered adequately prepared? The church the way it is today? The church the way it needs to be tomorrow?

3) What percentage of Seminary graduates are unprepared for the ministry? Are we basing this off of real data or anecdotal evidence?

4) What percentage of Seminary graduates feel that they are unprepared for the ministry? Does the admission that there might be a few holes in their education make them wholly unprepared?

5) What else do you think NTS should do? Are the academic requirments (90 hours of classwork for an M.Div.) to lenient? Are the number of hours of supervised ministry too low (Something like 600 hours of contact in a local church)?

Though it hasn't been given lots of press or publicity, one of the things that NTS is doing now is working to walk with students during their first few years of ministry. This work, for which the Seminary doesn't receive additional support or funding, is a direct attempt to make sure that graduates have the resources or are pointed to resources during their first years of ministry.

I ask the questions above in a genuine fashion without agenda. It seems that (based on my experience of NTS) these are long standing critiques of NTS. I am sure that at some level these critiques are valid. At the same time, my impression is that most of these ideas are based on anecdotal evidence which is hard to counteract in the mind of various constituencies.

--JS

[Susan Unger]

Though it hasn't been given lots of press or publicity, one of the things that NTS is doing now is working to walk with students during their first few years of ministry. This work, for which the Seminary doesn't receive additional support or funding, is a direct attempt to make sure that graduates have the resources or are pointed to resources during their first years of ministry.--JS

That sounds like a good idea on the seminary's part.

[Hal Paul]

I sure am glad the Lord didn't use those requirements when He chose the twelve.

But didn't he educate them after they were chosen? In a similar fashion, isn't the education required to become a pastor/chaplain pursued in response to the call rather than in anticipation of a call?

I'm certain that most of us would recognize an apprenticeship under God Incarnate as being a somewhat greater credential than any degree that a seminary could award. Jesus didn't call the disciples because of what they knew, he called them because they were willing to follow, and when they followed, he taught them what they needed to understand. Seminary is simply a means we use to help those who have been called to emulate the education and mentorship the twelve received at the feet of Jesus.

[Hans Deventer]

But didn't he educate them after they were chosen?

Sure. And they totally failed their exam. It was only through Pentecost that finally things fell into place. That says something, wouldn't you say?

Hal, I still believe that our biggest problem isn't that we don't have enough pastors at the seminary level, I think it is that we have too few examples of people that follow Jesus in the 21st century. I'm not going to church on Sunday to be informed about theology. I need living examples of God's grace I can follow.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Jesus would not have been teaching the disciples the things NTS does. He did not require Master's Degrees--so far as we know them today. He taught them through illustrations of things that were common, and known in their every day life and living situations. Ministers could get their Master's degree at our Nazarene Universities, and probably be more prepared to work with the everyday sort of people, many of which do not have college degrees. Our ministers come out of seminary looking for a church that will pay them good money, and offer them all kinds of benefits. That seems to be foremost to them, instead of the things that should be. Dwayne was never like that. He worked for the State of Tennesee as a Counselor, and never ask what the monetary package was when he talked with a church board. If they told him--OK. If not OK. We need to put the horse before the cart, and use it for the main purpose it serves. Christ and souls first and foremost. And, I am glad if a chirch is able to pay a good salary to a minister, but, what should be their main reason for answering a call to the ministry? Put God first, and trust Him. He has NEVER failed to meet ourneeds, and often abundantly more than we even dreamed of--and still does.

[Hal Paul]

Sure. And they totally failed their exam. It was only through Pentecost that finally things fell into place. That says something, wouldn't you say?

Hal, I still believe that our biggest problem isn't that we don't have enough pastors at the seminary level, I think it is that we have too few examples of people that follow Jesus in the 21st century. I'm not going to church on Sunday to be informed about theology. I need living examples of God's grace I can follow.

Yes, it was after Pentecost that everything fell into place, it was the 'ah ha!' moment where they finally understood everything Jesus was trying to teach them, but I don't think the education was all for naught. It was the human part of the equation in the relationship between God and man that made their ministry so effective once they had experienced the Holy Spirit.

I'm not arguing that advanced formal education be the only criteria for ministers, and am in full agreement that we are short on leaders who emulate Christ, and while I fully understand that not everyone will have the opportunity to obtain a formal education with all the academic credentials that go with it, I also think that those who take up leadership within the church should do everything possible to be academically prepared through formal and informal means. A seminary education is simply the best format for obtaining that formal education.

The academic standards required for ordination in the Church of the Nazarene are quite minimal. The average bachelor's degree graduate from our Nazarene Colleges, regardless of major, already has between 1/2 and 2/3 of the academic requirements necessary for ordination.

After I graduated from NNC I began exploring a call into ministry and found I could complete the academic requrements for ordination with less than 30 semester hours of study. The counseling I received from my father-in-law, an NBC graduate, and a member of his districts credentials board, was that I should pursue an M.Div. (90+ semester hours), because, in his experience, the best prepared ordination candidates were those who had attended seminary (he was a particular fan of NTS and Asbury). I think that was sound advise, while I have never met a pastor who regretted earning an M.Div., I have met many with less education who longed for more and wished for an opportunity for further formal education.

Ultimately, I think a pastor should meet both requirements for ordination. They must be experiencing the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit and they must be academically prepared. If someone claims that because they have the former, they don't need the latter, their call should be suspect. Likewise, in no way should we allow someone with the latter near a pulpit if they are not experiencing the former. Our challenge is how we in our human frailty can know what is truly in someone else's heart when they express that they have been called to the ministry and giving them an education that helps them with the essential tasks of ministry.

[Eric Frey]

Jesus would not have been teaching the disciples the things NTS does. He did not require Master's Degrees--so far as we know them today. He taught them through illustrations of things that were common, and known in their every day life and living situations. Ministers could get their Master's degree at our Nazarene Universities, and probably be more prepared to work with the everyday sort of people, many of which do not have college degrees. Our ministers come out of seminary looking for a church that will pay them good money, and offer them all kinds of benefits. That seems to be foremost to them, instead of the things that should be. Dwayne was never like that. He worked for the State of Tennesee as a Counselor, and never ask what the monetary package was when he talked with a church board. If they told him--OK. If not OK. We need to put the horse before the cart, and use it for the main purpose it serves. Christ and souls first and foremost. And, I am glad if a chirch is able to pay a good salary to a minister, but, what should be their main reason for answering a call to the ministry? Put God first, and trust Him. He has NEVER failed to meet ourneeds, and often abundantly more than we even dreamed of--and still does.

I am one of those seminary grads who are only out looking for the money and not trusting God. I am one who is struggling to find the best answer to the health insurance question as I have talked about in other threads. I have been told by some pastors not to worry about health insurance. They have gone without it and that I should just trust God more to make sure nothing will happen to me or my newborn son. I liken that argument to driving a hundred miles an hour in the wrong direction on a 6 lane freeway. There is trusting God and there is plain stupid.

I don't know a single seminary colleague who thinks the church owes her something. I don't know a single seminary colleague who is in it for the money. I know many seminary colleagues who left very profitable career options to be a Nazarene pastor. None of them demand a salary equal to what the corporate world would pay a person in a similar position with comperable education. In fact most have sacrificed a considerable amount to be the very best pastor they can be.

I agree with Hal. I own a Mac laptop even though it cost me a little more than a Dell, IBM, Toshiba, etc. Why? I have never heard a single person regret buying a Mac. I have, however, heard many people complain about their Microsoft based computers. I have never met anyone who regretted the preparation and training and experience they acquired at NTS, but I have met many who regret not going.

[Mike Schutz]

We have created a system that encourages students to come out of college (and seminary) thousands of dollars in debt. We cannot expect them to then not care about the financial package offered by a church. We need our pastors to be good stewards, which includes paying their debts, especially when it has been suggested by Dave that a church should look at a prospective pastor's financial situation prior to calling them.

It is not reasonable to compare the financial situation of pastors who entered ministry in previous generations with those who are coming out of higher education today. When I graduated from ENC in 1978 the total amount of my college loan was $2800, which was approximately one year's college bill. Today, if a student graduates from one of our colleges with a debt of one year's bill, their debt load will be almost $30,000.

I disagree with Eric at this point. I believe that the church DOES owe those in ministry something. It owes them a living wage, including something commensurate with their education. In the situation Anne is talking about, Dwayne was bi-vocational. If that is the desire of the pastor and church, then that must be negotiated. Dwayne did not need to negotiate with the church concerning compensation and benefits, because his primary salary and benefits were not coming from them. To suggest that it is wrong for pastors to want to discuss such things as how they will feed their family is inappropriate.