NMI Disconnect

[Mike Schutz]

BEFORE YOU BEGIN READING ANY OF THE BELOW, PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING DISCLAIMER:
If I have ever offended you by anything I have previously posted on NazNet, please do not read what I have written below. It will only upset you. If you were offended when folks said that the flag of the United States may send a mixed message when it is displayed in our churches, please do not read further. If you believe that all we need to do to reach young people with the gospel is to do what we have always done, do not read further. It will upset you. I have no desire to upset anyone.

Before you read any of the following, please understand:
1. I love the Church of the Nazarene
2. I love Nazarene missions
3. I love our district leadership, and our district NMI leadership. They are good and godly people, who are doing some really creative things in their local churches to reach people with the gospel.

All that being said, I just spent the last 8 hours feeling alone in a room with several hundred people at our district NMI Convention. I felt as if I had been transported back to 1974. Just a few examples:

1. As the convention began, we spent the first 30 minutes in a patriotic celebration about what is great about the U.S.A., attacking the dark forces within our country that persecute Christians, calling us to return to our explicitly Christian roots, and calling on God to bless us. Besides the questionable content presented (how anyone can suggest, with a straight face, that Christians are persecuted in our country is beyond comprehension - especially folks who claim to care about our brothers and sisters around the world). What really bothered me is that we wasted precious time with such content in an event supposedly designed to prepare church leaders to raise up world Christians in their local churches.
2. We prayed for God to bless the USA. I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. How dare we be so selfish! Why aren't we praying, "Dear God, please bless Myanmar. Please bless Romania. Please bless Somalia?" Why aren't we praying, "God you have blessed us beyond belief. Please break our hearts over the pain that breaks your heart, that we will spend our lives blessing others?"
3. As our convention reached a point when it was time to elect delegates to the Global Missions Convention, we watched a video by Dan Ketchum. One of the things Dan requested was that at least half of our delegates be young people. (Okay, what he really said was that we should try to send delegates who were at least under 50. The only folks who would consider a 49 year old delegate to be young are delegates to General NMI Convention, US Supreme Court, and Soviet Politburo.) After we watched the video, the ballot was distributed. I did find a very names under 50, but only a few. Unless I am really mistaken, no one on the ballot was under the age of 40.

As I sat through the convention today, I wondered if anyone else was as disturbed by the proceedings as I was. Several of our district NYI leadership agreed, as did a few others. It was not only a complete waste of my time, but was a disincentive for further participation.

At the conclusion of the convention, I had the following thoughts:
Helping young believers become world Christians is absolutely essential in the discipleship process. NMI, at least as presently constituted on the district and local level, is almost completely irrelevant to this process. The chief purpose of NMI is as a fundraising organization for the denomination's missions efforts. Therefore, it has to make presentations that are comfortable for its largest giving constituency - those my age and older. Right now, I want to keep our young people as far away from NMI as possible.

Help me with this. Was my experience dissimilar to your experience? Am I wrong? I really want to be.

[Ryan Scott]

Well. I think I just crossed the Philly District off my list of places to seek ministry opportunities after graduation (unless the position gets one heck of a recommendation from Mike - who, I'm pretty sure meant Dan Ketchum).

In my opinion, NMI is just one more layer of needless separation within the denomination. After working at HQ for 3 years and being in the Church of the Nazarene for my whole life, as far as I can tell, the expressed purpose of NMI is to be the PR wing of World Mission - essentially keeping missions in front of people in the pews on a consistent basis.

In a world so connected and globalized as our, people (at least most people my age) don't need to be told, "we have good people doing good things all over the world." We're still talking an operating in the language of missions and missionaries when what we're really talking about is the ministry of local congregations around the world.

If we still need an NMI structure to organize speaking tours, publish books, etc - that's great, I encourage it. I just don't think its the kind of thing that needs its own identity, let alone a giant convention every four years.

I'm of the opinion that supporting local congregations around the world should be at the core of any congregation's identity. If anything I think the current system marginalizes something which should be more prominent.

That being said, I'm not a fan of the way NMI seems to ignore the realities of what they're raising money for. The WEF funds much more than just "missionaries." We've rightly categorized the administration behind "missions" as "missions," but we've failed to adequately explain all that it involves. There is also the issue of Faith Promise advertising. This past year I was appalled to see that 13 of the 14 things cited as "where the money goes" on my faith promise handout were really projects of Nazarene Compassionate Ministries, which doesn't get any of the money from the WEF. (Not that WEF money isn't used for partnerships, etc, but the vast majority of funding is raised elsewhere.)

Bottom line: I think missions needs more prominence (in a more holistic way that just starting churches and gaining members) and that NMI needs much less prominence.

[Mike Schutz]

Well. I think I just crossed the Philly District off my list of places to seek ministry opportunities after graduation (unless the position gets one heck of a recommendation from Mike - who, I'm pretty sure meant Dan Ketchum).


Thanks, Ryan. I did mean Dan. Corrected.

[Chuck Wilkes]

Sorry to hear about your experience...our NMI convention was quite a bit different. Not only was the content different, but the ballot for NMI General Convention was divided into sections...ensuring a majority of our delegates will be under 50 (at least one in her 20's). And all this was led by a district NMI President who is well over 60.

Chuck

[Scott Hilton]

The one thing other than the great services by Rick Rigsby and (I am going to butcher his title with a guess)Pastor Shrader (and maybe his name too) was that I thought our NMI people and NYI people have a good idea of what is going on and I was honestly inspired by them. I was bored to snores a couple of times with how their presentations went and really would have loved a lot more time from the missionaries we had present at the assembly, but some of that is due to quite a few of the video's being shown were from my church and a bit of wipe out from the business day, the day before.

I think the only thing that truly rubbed me the wrong way was Friday nights service (the end of it all). We had some just awesome worship with a band and with the Temple choir, had a meaningful prayer time and then......NPH got up and tried to sell some more books before Pastor Rigsby spoke. It didn't seem to bother some people, but it rubbed me the wrong way........maybe I just need to get over it though, heh.

Mike, sorry you weren't more inspired from your assembly. Maybe next year you can pretend to be a Texan? hehe

Blessings

[Marsha Lynn]

I'm not a fan of the way NMI seems to ignore the realities of what they're raising money for. The WEF funds much more than just "missionaries." We've rightly categorized the administration behind "missions" as "missions," but we've failed to adequately explain all that it involves. There is also the issue of Faith Promise advertising. This past year I was appalled to see that 13 of the 14 things cited as "where the money goes" on my faith promise handout were really projects of Nazarene Compassionate Ministries, which doesn't get any of the money from the WEF. (Not that WEF money isn't used for partnerships, etc, but the vast majority of funding is raised elsewhere.)

Ryan, I don't agree with everything in your post, but I certainly share your concern for truth in advertising. Our Faith Promise campaign has sometimes included the message that the money is all for missions. I think I've finally convinced the advertisers to avoid the words 100% for missions. It all goes to the WEF which primarily funds missions, but doesn't fit the 100% definition like Alabaster does. Then when people start talking about using Faith Promise money to fund local NMI expenses, I start protesting. Until they advertise it that way when taking pledges, this treasurer is sending it all off for WEF as promised. (Besides, we won't get our WEF paid if they siphon off FP for other projects.)

I like your description of missions as being about local congregations around the world.

[Marsha Lynn]

Our NMI convention is in July, so I haven't experienced one lately, but I can't imagine the scenario you experienced. It would definitely set my teeth on edge to attend a missionary convention and hear an emphasis on how great the USA is. I have found US Olympic coverage intolerable in their obvious nationalism. It would be even more irritating to encounter that at a convention that is supposed to be about spreading the gospel beyond our shores. I hope we never have to hear ordinary American music again at the General NMI Convention. Surely, we can take a back seat in at least the branch of the church that is specifically centered around moving beyond ourselves.

[Alisa Stoll]

Let's see, at our NMI district convention, we heard Monte Cyrs - emphasis on youth and missions. Our presentation was about Speaking it boldly or how the word started for Nazarenes - tent type meetings to radio - emphasis on Spanish programs to TV broadcast to Jesus film, IPOD ministry, and personal evangelism. Oh and we had our teen impact team sing and do two skits. We also had our newly elected NYI president sing.

People were given an opportunity to go to two workshops - Nazarene Disaster Relief, Youth and Mission involvement, and Especially for Presidents (choose 1) and then Work & Witness Essentials, Speaking Boldly through Community Servie, Going Bananas for Missions (what all get sent for missions through Fawngrove PA), and Extreme Ministires: Amazon (choose 1)

We did elect more older folk than younger to Global.

We did have a reasonably decent mix of people.

Alisa

[Susan Unger]

Help me with this. Was my experience dissimilar to your experience? Am I wrong? I really want to be.

I struggle with how to comment on this as I absolutely do not want to come across as a complainer. Nor, do I want to come across as ungrateful for the amount of work and effort that went into the whole event [DA and Convention]. I know it is easy to point out things to complain about when it is not me who did all the work so I hope it doesn't come across as I am ungrateful. I also know that what I say on this public forum can be interpreted the wrong way. I really hope no one perceives this as complaining on my part.

But it was interesting to read your post after my chat with my parents on the way home from convention. We had been there for both DA and Convention and were sharing with each other what we got out of the events. I told them that throughout all of DA I felt so WEIRD. Whenever I have gone DA and Convention I have always had just a marvelous, God Meeting with US time that I would come home inspired for the next year. But this time, it was like I was sitting there dead. What was even more weird was that I felt so dead that I began to have very nostalgic feelings towards DA and Convention at my old district [which until yesterday I only have had bad, angry memories about that place]. Those who have heard my stories would know how freaking weird that is. I haven't had a chance to pray through about what this means.

There was one time when I feel a connection yesterday and that was when one pastor was praying. I think he prayed something along the lines of "we aren't desperate for you" or some such thing. The rest of the time it was like we all were going through the motions.

And then for NMI, I enjoyed Dr Gunter's speeches tremendously, but it was kind of weird that unlike the past where I would be so INTO the speech that I would be taking copious notes, this time I didn't - like my passion was gone. Towards the end it came back a little so I got a few notes but it was still strange. On the way home I kicked myself for missing my opportunity to really get involved in what she was saying but after reading your impressions, maybe that is another instance to my mind that something weird was going on. And then part of the time I was having to deal with a bad situation and spent half the session text messaging 2 friends about it. This is very unlike me in NMI convention.

Ever since I've been back home, I have had the yuckiest, unsettled feeling. I am planning on being there for the seminars tomorrow....hope things improve.

I shared a little of this with Pop just now. He had felt that his disconnect today was due to his hearing problems [hearing aids aren't helping him enough] and was very frustrated over this. But after hearing that you and I both felt a disconnect, he feels reassurance that his disconnect wasn't due to hearing aid problems afterall and his frustration is gone. This relieves me.

My conclusion - something spiritual was not right. What it is I haven't had a chance to pray about yet.

[Susan Unger]

Well. I think I just crossed the Philly District off my list of places to seek ministry opportunities after graduation (unless the position gets one heck of a recommendation from Mike - who, I'm pretty sure meant Dan Ketchum).

I think this is an area where postings on the internet can give off the wrong impression. I would elaborate, but I am still feeling yucky from the weird vibe I got this week.

[Barb Bouldrey]

I know someone here expected to hear from me.

No two districts do their conventions the same way. We are not given things that we must do, besides elections. Some NMI conventions are only half days, others are all day with an evening rally.

I have learned to appreciate our district more and more. All 3 departments work together to promote each other's work. Sunday School and NMI work together to help children hear the call to missions. NYI and NMI work together to help teens hear the call to missions. NMI and NMI share the same mission project each year so our teens only have one mission offering to raise.

A misconception about Faith Promise is that it is only for the WEF. If you read the Faith Promise guidelines you will find that each church is to set their FP goal on the needs of that local congregation. I do not know of any church that ONLY includes the WEF in Faith Promise. The concept of Faith Promise is to include ALL mission giving for the year and have individuals give monthly pledges so that the local church avoids all those small offerings each month.

In recent years we have the new Mission Call Coordinator. We are making a defined effort to educate our youth and present the call to missons to them. Once they express an interest in a call to missions we keep in contact with them from that day on, encouraging them, and helping them find ways to train for the call, even as a child.

I would not have enjoyed the NMI convention that was described here.

Now as to the delegates to the Global Convention. Each district is to make the effort to have delegates who are under 50. Part of this next Global Convention will be training for new young leaders. But the only way you can guarantee delegates elected in that age group is to have every name on the ballot in that age group.

Let me give you an example. I need to elect 6 delegates. For the ballot we will have 12 names to choose from. I have my nominating committee nominate 18 names because I know that some of them will turn me down. Sometimes more than 6 turn me down.

This time, we will nominate people in their 20's and 30's and 40's ( and we have done some of that already each year). Some will also be elected to NYI convention or SS convention....both of which happen before my convention....and will choose to represent those departments instead of NMI. Some will turn me down because they cannot get off work. Some will turn me down because they are still in college.

So, we make the effort to include younger people each year, but they turn me down to allow their names on the ballot. So what do you do?????

Yes, the NMI is the advertising arm of the Dept of World Missions. If we merged the two dept we would still need district and local leadership to promote missions. People will not support what they do not know about. World Missions would fail without the efforts of the NMI to promote it. And missionaries would have to return and give up their calls.

When we look at the total program of the Dept. of World Missions and see all the branches and ministries, it is far more than just missionaries.

If district and local churches do not explain all that the WEF covers it is their fault, not the general church's fault. I receive materials constantly that defines the WEF in pie charts and explanations that I pass on to my local churches. Recently I taught a workshop on understand the finances of the NMI, giving a breakdown of everything that is a part of the WEF and the district financial program. I want the person in the local church to know where their dollars go and how they are used.

As with anthing else we discuss, it is easy to judge a denominational program or anything to do with the church world by our own experiences.

Reading these posts has helped me evaluate what I do and help educate ME as to what others are seeing in NMI and conventions.

I have not yet viewed Dr. Ketchum's video clip. After reading what was said here, I might now show it.

Barb

[Mike Schutz]

Barb,
Thanks for replying. I really hoped you would, as I desire various perspectives on the issue of the current role of NMI in discipling our teens to become world Christians.
I really like our district NMI president. In fact, after the opening to the convention, I emailed her with my reaction. I certainly did not want to say anything to anyone else without talking to her. She was not leading the explicitly patriotic sequence. I know she will want to enter into a conversation about it.
I think Dan Ketchum's video was quite helpful.

[Ryan Scott]

Thanks for your input, Barb. I guess what I failed to communicate properly was the idea that promoting missions shouldn't be something for one group, but should be the core of who we are. A lot of times NMI gives the impression 1) that's missions is just one of the things we do and 2) that missions is something that happens somewhere else.

I know there is a lot of push to help people see mission in their own communities, but it is a big ship to right and it takes time. I just question if having such a prominent organization so associate with foreign missions is the right model moving forward.

By the way, I am a big fan of Dan Ketchum and I am sure whatever video he put together is probably worth showing.

[Mike Schutz]

I also need to clarify that I have no problem with patriotism. My wife is a music teacher and today her choir and jazz band did an assembly welcoming a soldier to her school who just returned from his second tour in Iraq. As she told me about it (I wasn't there because of district assembly), it was very moving.

I just don't think a missions convention is the place for it.

[Scott Hilton]

Dan Ketchum spoke at the NMI assembly last year, which was the only part I got to partake in last year. I gotta say I was also impressed with him greatly!

O.k., time to sound like an idiot. WEF?? I have a guess of World Evangelism fund, but I have always stunk at guessing.....?

[Susan Unger]

Dan Ketchum spoke at the NMI assembly last year, which was the only part I got to partake in last year. I gotta say I was also impressed with him greatly!

O.k., time to sound like an idiot. WEF?? I have a guess of World Evangelism fund, but I have always stunk at guessing.....?

WEF is World Evangelism Fund.

[Scott Hilton]

WEF is World Evangelism Fund.
WOW, I got it right!!!!!

it is an acronym world isn't it?

[Bob Evans]

BEFORE YOU BEGIN READING ANY OF THE BELOW, PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING DISCLAIMER:
If I have ever offended you by anything I have previously posted on NazNet, please do not read what I have written below. It will only upset you. If you were offended when folks said that the flag of the United States may send a mixed message when it is displayed in our churches, please do not read further. If you believe that all we need to do to reach young people with the gospel is to do what we have always done, do not read further. It will upset you. I have no desire to upset anyone.

Before you read any of the following, please understand:
1. I love the Church of the Nazarene
2. I love Nazarene missions
3. I love our district leadership, and our district NMI leadership. They are good and godly people, who are doing some really creative things in their local churches to reach people with the gospel.

All that being said, I just spent the last 8 hours feeling alone in a room with several hundred people at our district NMI Convention. I felt as if I had been transported back to 1974. Just a few examples:

1. As the convention began, we spent the first 30 minutes in a patriotic celebration about what is great about the U.S.A., attacking the dark forces within our country that persecute Christians, calling us to return to our explicitly Christian roots, and calling on God to bless us. Besides the questionable content presented (how anyone can suggest, with a straight face, that Christians are persecuted in our country is beyond comprehension - especially folks who claim to care about our brothers and sisters around the world). What really bothered me is that we wasted precious time with such content in an event supposedly designed to prepare church leaders to raise up world Christians in their local churches.
2. We prayed for God to bless the USA. I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. How dare we be so selfish! Why aren't we praying, "Dear God, please bless Myanmar. Please bless Romania. Please bless Somalia?" Why aren't we praying, "God you have blessed us beyond belief. Please break our hearts over the pain that breaks your heart, that we will spend our lives blessing others?"
3. As our convention reached a point when it was time to elect delegates to the Global Missions Convention, we watched a video by Dan Ketchum. One of the things Dan requested was that at least half of our delegates be young people. (Okay, what he really said was that we should try to send delegates who were at least under 50. The only folks who would consider a 49 year old delegate to be young are delegates to General NMI Convention, US Supreme Court, and Soviet Politburo.) After we watched the video, the ballot was distributed. I did find a very names under 50, but only a few. Unless I am really mistaken, no one on the ballot was under the age of 40.

As I sat through the convention today, I wondered if anyone else was as disturbed by the proceedings as I was. Several of our district NYI leadership agreed, as did a few others. It was not only a complete waste of my time, but was a disincentive for further participation.

At the conclusion of the convention, I had the following thoughts:
Helping young believers become world Christians is absolutely essential in the discipleship process. NMI, at least as presently constituted on the district and local level, is almost completely irrelevant to this process. The chief purpose of NMI is as a fundraising organization for the denomination's missions efforts. Therefore, it has to make presentations that are comfortable for its largest giving constituency - those my age and older. Right now, I want to keep our young people as far away from NMI as possible.

Help me with this. Was my experience dissimilar to your experience? Am I wrong? I really want to be.

Mike

You can only change what you can change. Conventions are for a few for a day. You church is yours for the next year. Channel some of that towards a series on Christian world view or something like that. I am praying for you.

Bob

[Steven Martinez]

Thanks Mike for sharing.
On my district, the call for young delegates begins at 30 and younger. Since I am on the District NMI council, I am already on the ballot and I am 28. However, it is difficult to find people who meant the greatest qualification on our district... avilability. Although the district will cover some of the expenses, it is still very expensive for a young family to fly anywhere these days.

[Hans Deventer]

Mike, I'd love to add my thanks to the post but then I'd merely be showing my European smugness. :basic04

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I do not know of any church that ONLY includes the WEF in Faith Promise.

Well now you do! It's what we do at North Street. Every FP dollar raised goes to the WEF allocation. This was only North Street's second year doing FP. The first year, we were right around what we were asked for the WEF, and this year, we well surpassed it.

[Marsha Lynn]

I do not know of any church that ONLY includes the WEF in Faith Promise.

Well now you do! It's what we do at North Street. Every FP dollar raised goes to the WEF allocation. This was only North Street's second year doing FP. The first year, we were right around what we were asked for the WEF, and this year, we well surpassed it.

That makes at least two. Any interest in using FP money for other projects has always come up AFTER it was promoted as being entirely for WEF. The crotchety treasurer (who announced her resignation almost a year ago and has yet to be replaced) consistently vetoes that "bait and switch" idea by reminding those involved that it was promoted as being for WEF, that it is all needed for WEF, and that the check is already in the mail headed to Kansas City.

You would think that someone would eventually accept the resignation of such a contrary treasurer and find a more compliant person to do the job, wouldn't you? It's so hard to hold a volunteer accountable once they have resigned their position. :rolleyes:

Marsha
(who presented her 21st report as church treasurer at last Sunday's annual meeting)

[Mike Schutz]

Well now you do! It's what we do at North Street. Every FP dollar raised goes to the WEF allocation. This was only North Street's second year doing FP. The first year, we were right around what we were asked for the WEF, and this year, we well surpassed it.

Ours as well. Faith Promise is used ONLY for WEF. Any money that comes in for missions in our church, unless specifically earmarked otherwise, goes to WEF.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Very interesting. Faith Promise is open to being done any way the local church sees as their need. Many churches add up their WEF, Broadcast offering, Alabaster, Memorial Roll, Compassionate Min., LINKS, local expense, and convention delegate expense to get their total WEF goal for the year. They often include an amount for a deputation offering so they can schedule a missionary to speak.

The nice thing about Faith Promise is that you can use to fit what you need. Every time I have spoken at a church for the Faith Promise pledge service, local president has a chart of all that will be paid by Faith Promise.

Some churches set a goal of 1/3 of WEF for Easter, 1/3 of Faith Promise for Thanksgiving and the remaining 1/3 is PART of their Faith Promise goal.

Barb

[William Hunter]

Our Faith Promise goes to 100% WEF and the monthly mission emphasis. We tell our people that up front and that income only goes there. I believe that if we tell our people to give to something that the money goes to that thing. We do not add other things into our FP efforts. I agree, we need to be up front and tell our people exactly where the money goes, and then do it. I wish HQ would tell us of the WEF money that comes in, how much actually goes to missions and how much to other things.



The one thing other than the great services by Rick Rigsby and (I am going to butcher his title with a guess)Pastor Shrader (and maybe his name too) was that I thought our NMI people and NYI people have a good idea of what is going on and I was honestly inspired by them. I was bored to snores a couple of times with how their presentations went and really would have loved a lot more time from the missionaries we had present at the assembly, but some of that is due to quite a few of the video's being shown were from my church and a bit of wipe out from the business day, the day before.

I think the only thing that truly rubbed me the wrong way was Friday nights service (the end of it all). We had some just awesome worship with a band and with the Temple choir, had a meaningful prayer time and then......NPH got up and tried to sell some more books before Pastor Rigsby spoke. It didn't seem to bother some people, but it rubbed me the wrong way........maybe I just need to get over it though, heh.

Mike, sorry you weren't more inspired from your assembly. Maybe next year you can pretend to be a Texan? hehe

Blessings

[Randy McRoberts]

I'd love to add my thanks to the post but then I'd merely be showing my European smugness. :basic04

Hans, I used that phrase in reference to you the other day, and I shouldn't have. You have never seemed smug to me in the least, and I have enjoyed your posts very much. In fact, I think I can identify with you more than with anyone else I have met on NazNet.

The only time I ever felt frustrated with your opinion was the other day when it hit me the wrong way in the political discussion. I let my emotions get away with my fingers and I wrote what I wrote, a la Omar Khayyam.

If you can accept this, I believe my comment was directed in general at Europe, but you had to take it on the chin for a whole continent, and that wasn't fair.

I offer my sincere apology, hoping you will accept it and we can continue to have fellowship. In future, I will try to count to ten before I type an angry message.

Now, concerning the NMI, in my church and district, I believe it has become totally irrelevant. As is the case with many of the old institutions, it is dying a slow, painful death.

[Ryan Scott]

Mike, I'd love to add my thanks to the post but then I'd merely be showing my European smugness.


At least you have an excuse. I don't know where my European smugness came from; I've only spent five days there in my entire life - and it wasn't even on the continent!

[Mike Schutz]

Well. I think I just crossed the Philly District off my list of places to seek ministry opportunities after graduation (unless the position gets one heck of a recommendation from Mike

I want to make clear to Ryan - and to everyone else, that I love the Philadelphia District. This event was not representative of the forward-looking leadership.

[Barb Bouldrey]

William,

I have not checked it out myself to see if it is available on the nazarene.org website, but I receive the annual report after the General Board meetings each year that gives a detailed pie chart showing percentages in the breakdown of the WEF.

I will for it and see if I can find a link. But it is available to every person who wants to see it. I often include this in my convention handbook for the local presidents. It is up to them to show it to their congregations.

I usually look at it and pitch it if I do not want to put it in the handbook.

Here is one link about total missions giving that should be helpful.

http://www.nazarenemissionsinternational.org/giving/wef/pdf/givingchart.pdf

Barb

[Ryan Scott]

I want to make clear to Ryan - and to everyone else, that I love the Philadelphia District. This event was not representative of the forward-looking leadership.


I'll make it clear that I wasn't entirely serious.

[Hans Deventer]

I offer my sincere apology, hoping you will accept it and we can continue to have fellowship. In future, I will try to count to ten before I type an angry message.

Randy, it has happened to me as well that I've been writing faster than I've been thinking. Apology accepted and and no hard feelings at all. Thanks a lot for this post!!!

[Hans Deventer]

More on topic, I'd like to state that on our District, the NMI is doing quite well. We're sending out Work and Witness teams, the youth is getting involved in missions. There are good things going on and it is not at all a hobby for retired Nazarenes.

[Cindi Hammons]

Alisa,

The district always elects older people to GA and GNMI positions. I have also noticed that the delegates are always the same "types" of people. You know...the "in" group. Oh well.

At least that's how it seems to me since I am barely out of NYI myself!:basic03

[Cindi Hammons]

Ours as well. Faith Promise is used ONLY for WEF. Any money that comes in for missions in our church, unless specifically earmarked otherwise, goes to WEF.

Ditto at my former church. We always set the FP goal to match the WEF amount...and usually could not raise enough and had to cover the balance from tithes and offerings.

I don't know what my current church does as I have not heard the word FP since we arrived last October.

[Paul Whitaker]

Ours as well. Faith Promise is used ONLY for WEF. Any money that comes in for missions in our church, unless specifically earmarked otherwise, goes to WEF.

What percentage of WEF is spent in the USA? How much is used for headquarter's expenses?

[Ryan Scott]

At least that's how it seems to me since I am barely out of NYI myself!


I'm not sure if you're aware, but there's no NYI age limit anymore. You're only out when you choose to be.

[David Pettigrew]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but there's no NYI age limit anymore. You're only out when you choose to be.

I assumed she meant she was 41!

[Cindi Hammons]

You are a wonderful person...however, I am (drumroll please) 42.

[Cindi Hammons]

Ryan, I was just being silly.

[Eric Frey]

What percentage of WEF is spent in the USA? How much is used for headquarter's expenses?

I've got the breakdown somewhere. I'll have to see if I can find it. From what I understand it was difficult to come by. Despite it being public record, it takes quite a bit of digging to put it together, but a friend did it. If I can find it, I'll pass it along.

[Ken Pell]

I've got the breakdown somewhere. I'll have to see if I can find it. From what I understand it was difficult to come by. Despite it being public record, it takes quite a bit of digging to put it together, but a friend did it. If I can find it, I'll pass it along.

I'd like to see it too please.

[Barb Bouldrey]

This is from my notes from the most recent workshop I taught on understanding mission giving...how our giving is used:

A. What does the World Evangelism Fund finance?
1. Outreach in 150 countries.
2. Support for over 800 Nazarene missionaries.
3. Pensions for over 300 retired missionaries.
4. 41 Bible colleges and seminaries, 2 liberal arts
Universities, 31 extension centers
5. 3 additional career training centers
6. More than 60 medical clinics and 2 hospitals
7.. Literature in 95 languages.
8. Casa Robles, retirement home
9. Compassionate Ministries, Work & Witness,
Alabaster, World Mission Broadcast, LINKs,
Deputation, organization and leadership expenses at headquarters.
10. Administrative costs (our General Superintendents) to facilitate ministries and
Services for the local churches and mission stations.

When you look at that list logically you see that as we have grown we have needed more administration. It has not been too many years that we entered our 100th nation. Now we are in 151 with several more waiting to be entered. Not too many years ago we had 600 missionaries and now we have 800.

And, with all the offices of Special Projects, like Work & Witness, Alabaster, LINKs, Compassionate Ministries, etc, it requires more administration.

One way to look at it is that 100% of the WEF goes for ministries and administration of the International Church of the Nazarene.

I know of no business in the world that has unpaid administration and all businesses need administration. AND any church has to have a business side to it to be successful. My local church is a ministry, but it has to be run with administration and business practices.

Our denomination is a ministry around the world, but it has to have organization and business practices to run smoothly.

I remember when the percentage was 80% missions and 20% administration. I do not know what that breakdown is today. But I do not care.

At times I wondered why we needed just one person to be the administrator of things like LINKs and Alabaster until I got to know these people and discovered the hours of unpaid overtime often required to meet the needs of those areas.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some people do not trust the General Church to be honest in their use of finances. The church does not attempt to hide how they spend money given to the church.

Barb

[Donna Adams]

are those in any particular order Barb? We've always heard and have seen in past years that KC gets the biggest chunk first. Also, I think churches would be willing do give more and do better if they knew for sure it was going to the mission field and not to pay an employee in headquarters.

[Marsha Lynn]

My understanding is that around 20% of WEF goes to "administrative costs." That's actually quite an accomplishment. My husband works for the federal government. Every fall they have the "Combined Federal Campaign," (CFC) encouraging employees to contribute to charities near and far through payroll deduction. (NCM is on the list.) The guideline for a "good" charity is that no more than 20% of the donations received go to administrative costs. That percentage is provided for each organization. I haven't seen the list for years (my husband doesn't usually bring it home), but I remember in the past being amazed by the number of charities that go over the 20%. For the Church of the Nazarene to not only administer the missions program, but also all of the "100%" funds, such as Alabaster, as well as provide services to local churches without pulling off more than 20% is impressive.

It's interesting that this thread has gone this direction while another thread is discussing how well NTS prepares seminarians for the pastorate. As I have considered that question, I have become more grateful for the support I receive as a library director from the Indiana State Library. A degree in library science prepares students for a variety of library and information science careers. It falls to the (tax-supported) State Library to provide "nuts and bolts" training for those who choose careers in Indiana public libraries. I have a "budget workshop" coming up that will update me on the process of developing an annual budget. I depend on the State Library to keep me abreast of changes in the law and breaking news concerning tax collection and such.

I wonder if we could have better-equipped pastors if churches were willing to fund more district and general support for such things. Wouldn't it be nice if the district could offer more training for counseling, church administration, dealing with difficult people, building bridges out of poverty, etc.?

We get what we're willing to pay for. Why are we so unwilling to fund a strong denominational support network for our churches?

Just thinking.

Marsha


are those in any particular order Barb? We've always heard and have seen in past years that KC gets the biggest chunk first. Also, I think churches would be willing do give more and do better if they knew for sure it was going to the mission field and not to pay an employee in headquarters.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Donna,

Those are in no particular order. I placed the care of our missionaries and retired missions first on the list and they get the largest percentage of the WEF.

80% everything else and 20% for administration is the breakdown that HQ has had for years.

You would have to work at HQ for the Dept. of World Missions to understand the administrative work. I know I would.

Why is it wrong to expect to pay for administration of a huge world-wide mission program. If 100% of the WEF went to missions, how would we pay the administatration? Should we have an adminstration budget added to the WEF? Should we fire and close down headquarters? Then, how would we run our mission program.

I believe it is important to teach our local congregations that administration is a PART of missions. Paying Dan Ketchum's salary, for instance, is PART of giving to missions because he is our missions leader and we need him.

So, in my book, 100% goes to missions.

Now, working with the general level of missions for 17 years, I can give you my opinion on some of the ways I can see to cut expenses, but they would be minimal, insignificant things.

If you look at my list of 10 items, the first 8 represent the 80% that is acutual mission work on the field(and the US is part of that field) and the last 2 are 20% of the list.

I am awaiting an email from HQ with the actual figures to share.

Barb

[Barb Bouldrey]

Just a P.S.

I have not heard people express that Kansas City gets the biggest chunk of the WEF. That is a new concept to me.

What I have heard over and over is people expressing their opinion that too much of the WEF is spent at headquarters and opinions that it is often spent incorrectly. Of course, that is a general statement by many who have never worked there or understand the necessity of all the administration and expenses. Often I think the motive behind those opinions is a desire to have a smaller WEF assignment for the local churches.

If a local congregation or pastor thinks that the biggest chunk of the WEF is used to pay salaries in Kansas City, then someone needs to educate that local congregation and pastor and show them that it is not true.

Also, if you surveyed any congregation and asked them:
1. What is the WEF used for?
2. What percentage of the WEF is used to pay salaries in KC?

I can guarantee that the majority of people will not know the answers and not CARE.

All people care about is "how much money do we HAVE to pay this year?"

That is one of the main responsibilities of NMI....to educate the local congregations so they understand how the system works, help them see administration as part of missions and help them see missions as PEOPLE who need the Lord being reached through all these many areas of NMI.

If you asked the people at NMI HQ if they were working FOR missions, they would unanimously answer, "yes." So their salaries are part of mission work.


Since the beginning, people have questioned the amount of the WEF and tried to find ways to cut their WEF assignment down to a lower amount. We all would like to do that.

Barb

[Ryan Scott]

As far as I know, the only thing the WEF pays for in Compassionate Ministries is the salaries of two people in the USA/Canada office (I was one of them for a couple years).

It might be misleading to say NCM is a part of the WEF.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Compassionate Ministries is a ministry all by itself, but it still gets SOME help from the WEF...even if it is only two salaries.

KC HQ lists NCM as a part of the WEF. That is where I got my list...from their website.

Alabaster giving is not a part of the WEF, but the WEF supports Alabaster administration. Same goes for World Mission Broadcast, LINKs, Work & Witness, Mission Health Care. All of these are Approved Specials and money given to them are NOT WEF giving. But WEF pays the salaries of those who administer those things.

So, I lumped them all together in item no. 9 and you will notice I describe it as "organization and leadership expenses."

Barb

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Barb, it seems to me that we have rec. enough material and seen graphs showing where money goes, over the years that people would have known that the biggest part of our mission money goes for our missionary work, but that we have to have people there at HQ to do office work to keep these departments running.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Anne,

I have to admit that if I were not involved in NMI leadership I would not look at the information, even if it was printed in the Holiness Today. I would glance at it and move on.

I do not think that the majority of laymen understand or care to understand how the denomination and its departments are run or how they spend the money.

And, if a church is growing they have new people who have never heard of these things. That is why I urge the local presidents to explain terms like WEF, Alabaster, LINKs, etc so people learn what they are asked to give to.

I think that when I tell our congregation that their Easter offering goes to help support 800 missionaries and 300 retired missionaries that is enough for them. They know that our church could not support ONE missionary all by themselves and enjoy knowing that all Nazarenes around the world give to help support the mission program.

In 17 years of being DP I have never had one layman ask me about what percentage of the WEF goes to pay salaries at HQ. The only ones who ask are pastors who would like to have a lower WEF.

Barb

[Billy Cox]

I do not think that the majority of laymen understand or care to understand how the denomination and its departments are run or how they spend the money.


Statistics can be interpreted in different ways depending on what the person presenting the numbers wants to emphasize.

Example:

I could say that a majority of Nazarenes live outside of the USA/Canada and I would be telling the truth.

I could also say that the USA/Canada is by far the largest region in the denomination and gives almost all of the money, and I would be telling the truth.

In terms of WEF, I could say that only 20% goes toward administration, but I don't have to go far out on a limb to suggest that administration is one of the largest single budget categories. So, someone could say that administration gets the biggest slice of the pie while most of the pie goes to missions.

[John Martin]

Thank the Lord for Youth in Mission! It's the most awesome program involving YOUNG people excited about missions! Check it out, ya'll.

[Doug Cousins]

I shouldn't generalize but, coming from the western side of your state, I would say soberly, welcome back to PA. I don't believe the disconnect is intentional of course, but rather just another manifestation of the generational divide between the hayday of the AHM and the wider relational sensitivities of today's youth (ie. under 50 or so).

[Jon Twitchell]

We're doing something fairly unique in Maine this year... our NYI and NMI councils partnered up for a joint convention. It's only just begun, so I don't have much observations at this point (and I'm not directly involved with our district NYI anymore, so I haven't been involved in planning).

[Matt Zimmer]

Scott,

It seems as if these types of things are pre-planned and if this service was, someone should have rearranged NPH rep for a better fit to the flow. I'm with you on this, someone needs to think timing.

[Hal Paul]

... today's youth (ie. under 50 or so).

Woo hoo, the kids off to college and I still qualify as a youth!!! :bannana

[Andrew Henck]

Now as to the delegates to the Global Convention. Each district is to make the effort to have delegates who are under 50. Part of this next Global Convention will be training for new young leaders. But the only way you can guarantee delegates elected in that age group is to have every name on the ballot in that age group.

Let me give you an example. I need to elect 6 delegates. For the ballot we will have 12 names to choose from. I have my nominating committee nominate 18 names because I know that some of them will turn me down. Sometimes more than 6 turn me down.

This time, we will nominate people in their 20's and 30's and 40's ( and we have done some of that already each year). Some will also be elected to NYI convention or SS convention....both of which happen before my convention....and will choose to represent those departments instead of NMI. Some will turn me down because they cannot get off work. Some will turn me down because they are still in college.

So, we make the effort to include younger people each year, but they turn me down to allow their names on the ballot. So what do you do?????


I've chewed on this for a while now since I first heard this strategy from HQ to "get the young ones" to GA this summer.

I'm not quite sure if folks have realized how wide a spread one can talk about when you're "nominating folks under 50." To think that myself as a 21 year old and my mother as a 50 year old (sorry Mom!) are considered in the same bracket as "young ones" seems to disregard the wide spectrum of perspectives and experiences in between these two bookend ages. All this to say, I applaud the fact that there's some acknowledgment being made to broaden the scope of NMI, however, I don't know if attending one conference is the answer.

[David Pettigrew]

We had missionary meeting last Wednesday at our church. All twelve of us. The study chairwoman asked me to sing a song that had been supplied with the study material. It was a song about alabaster offering that was to be sung to the tune of "His Grace is Sufficient for Me."

Oh, I wish I had saved the lyrics. Talk about a hoot. Something like "Oh my heart is excited with cheer...cause my box is overflowing, cashier." It was one of those times when I knew my job was in jeopardy, because I was on the verge of losing it. I was hoping folks would think I was just really blessed.

Anyway, it reminded me of this conversation, because I know somebody somewhere wrote those lyrics thinking it would "spice up" the missionary lesson.

I guess if I had wanted to appeal to the young folks, I could have done it as a rap. Perhaps our 70 years old study chairwoman could have "beatboxed" in the background for me.

This gives me an idea for a post. "Ways to make Global NMI Convention more appealing to the young people." Hmm.....it is Monday.

[David Pettigrew]

Alright, I enjoyed our District NMI convention this year, but I got the giggles during the "installation of new officers" portion at the very end.

It suddenly occurred to me that the primary business of the district NMI convention is to elect members of the district NMI council.

Having served on a district NMI council or three, I know that the primary business of the district NMI council is...planning the district NMI convention!

So, we meet every year for a convention to elect people to plan the convention.

[Charles W Christian]

Alright, I enjoyed our District NMI convention this year, but I got the giggles during the "installation of new officers" portion at the very end.

It suddenly occurred to me that the primary business of the district NMI convention is to elect members of the district NMI council.

Having served on a district NMI council or three, I know that the primary business of the district NMI council is...planning the district NMI convention!

So, we meet every year for a convention to elect people to plan the convention.

Hey, David -
I am thankful for the Dallas District NMI Convention, since (as I hear) you guys prayed for my family in me while we were in Russia! That was very thoughtful and appreciated (especially by my mom and dad, who were present at the convention!)!

I'll write Cheryl personally, but thanks for the prayers! We're home, and it was a great trip.

Blessings,
Charles

[Cindi Hammons]

Thank the Lord for Youth in Mission! It's the most awesome program involving YOUNG people excited about missions! Check it out, ya'll.

Been there, done that. Mexico City 1987.

[Susan Unger]

Been there, done that. Mexico City 1987.

Same place in 89.

[Glenn Harris]

Then when people start talking about using Faith Promise money to fund local NMI expenses, I start protesting. Until they advertise it that way when taking pledges, this treasurer is sending it all off for WEF as promised. (Besides, we won't get our WEF paid if they siphon off FP for other projects.)



I didn't even realize that that was even remotely an option. Designated funds are designated funds and FP is not the same as local NMI. To me, taking the Faith Promise funds and using them to buy missionary books (or any other local Mission expenses) would be a violation of what they were given for. If our board has an issue with an expense they are big on special offerings (don't get me started on that one) but never on misdirecting funds. I'm glad it's never even been hinted at in our church and if it ever were they would have a fight on their hands or a new Financial Secretary. :eek:

[Ryan Scott]

I didn't even realize that that was even remotely an option. Designated funds are designated funds and FP is not the same as local NMI. To me, taking the Faith Promise funds and using them to buy missionary books (or any other local Mission expenses) would be a violation of what they were given for. If our board has an issue with an expense they are big on special offerings (don't get me started on that one) but never on misdirecting funds. I'm glad it's never even been hinted at in our church and if it ever were they would have a fight on their hands or a new Financial Secretary.


It all depends on how it is presented. Every congregation I've ever been a part of has raised all mission funds through Faith Promise; they present a sheet with a breakdown of how much goes to pay WEF, how much goes to other local projects, missionary deputation/gifts, local expenses, NMI convention costs, etc.

Although, in some cases the priorities have not always been spelled out (like "we promise to pay WEF first if the pledges don't all come back," that would be helpful).

[Jon Twitchell]

I didn't even realize that that was even remotely an option. Designated funds are designated funds and FP is not the same as local NMI. To me, taking the Faith Promise funds and using them to buy missionary books (or any other local Mission expenses) would be a violation of what they were given for. If our board has an issue with an expense they are big on special offerings (don't get me started on that one) but never on misdirecting funds. I'm glad it's never even been hinted at in our church and if it ever were they would have a fight on their hands or a new Financial Secretary. :eek:

Pretty much anything is an option, as long as you are upfront with the congregation when you ask them to give. You could roll your missions/educational/district/P&B budgets into one number and hold a Faith Promise campaign for it--as long as people understood that's what you were doing BEFORE they pledged and gave.

We fund the following through Faith Promise (and have done so for at least 8-9 years):
WEF
District NMI
District NMI Special Project (Work & Witness)
Convention Expenses (missionary stipend, food, housing, etc.)
Local NMI expenses (books, education, attendance at District NMI Convention)
A variety of 10% specials (Jesus Film, World Evangelism Broadcast, Distinguished Service, Memorial Roll, etc.)
A variety of local missions projects: soup kitchen, half-way house, Protestant Hospital Ministry, a Sudanese church plant, etc.

We're also pretty clear that what we'll actually be able to give away will depend on what actually comes in--with our priorities being placed on WEF and other "obligations."

[Glenn Harris]

I guess I have a problem with the using of the term Faith Promise to fund it. To me Faith Promise is a General Program, the same as World Missions Offering and Alabaster. If the church is up front and CLEARLY states that part of their Faith Promise is going to go to the local church budget then it may be alright, although I personally wouldn't be comfortable with it. We handle that a different way. Several years ago they started a program called "Faithful Forty" where 40 families pledged to support local missions and that money is given faithfully by the members involved and that is the money that is used to fund local missions. (mission material, missionary books, childrens mission programs and World Mission Magazine) They know that that money is going to fund local missions and that it isn't the same as or part of Faith Promise. If local missions has a shortfall it comes out of the general expenses of the church, not the program giving. Maybe I'm just living in a different world but all money that comes in for any General Program (World Missions, Easter, Thanksgiving, World Mission Radio, Distinguished and Memorial Rolls, Alabaster, etc.) are sent monthly to KC. I don't even like to carry them over. If I can't pay something it isn't going to be designated funds.

[Jon Twitchell]

Glenn, thanks for sharing your perspective.... even though I don't particularly understand it.

As I see it, "Faith Promise" is not really specific to the Church of the Nazarene.... neither is it really specific to missions. It's simply a means to raise money based on the pledges of people. Lots of ministries run fundraising campaigns and use the term "Faith Promise." In addition, Faith Promise is administered by the local church, not by the district or the denomation. And, it's one of many possible ways that a church might choose to fund their missions allocations.

Now... "World Evangelism Fund," on the other hand... :) I don't know what those words could possibly mean other than funding missions... but I also know that it's used for lots of things that the average person in the pew wouldn't see as connected with missions at all... :)

Again, I think it just depends on your local church tradition. Your church equates "Faith Promise" with "World Evangelism Fund"--consequently, using FP money for anything other than WEF would be a misappropriation. My church equates "Faith Promise" with "Supporting local and global missions" (That's the tag line we use with our campaign). Now, if we were to use that money to pay the oil bill--that would be misappropriation of funds.

[Charlene Clevenger]

Our Dist. NMI conventions used to be all-day affairs. Now we meet on Saturday from 8:00 a.m. to noon. Really, the first half hour is for registration. The dist. council goes all out to make it an exciting, informative morning. I've been to the convention many times, but this was my first year as a local NMI President, so I drank it all in.

[Gene Tatsch]

BEFORE YOU BEGIN READING ANY OF THE BELOW, PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING DISCLAIMER:
...I had the following thoughts:
Helping young believers become world Christians is absolutely essential in the discipleship process.
NMI, at least as presently constituted on the district and local level, is almost completely irrelevant to this process. ...
Help me with this. Was my experience dissimilar to your experience? Am I wrong? I really want to be.

Mike, if you really want to tick me off, you certainly MUST try a whole lot harder!:basic03
Considering what we say are the consequences of the gospel we proclaim, I think we're not nearly as constructively critical of our organizations/programs/administration as we ought to be. SO, thanks for raising the issue - it certainly has generated a lot of response over the weeks!

Now: as always, the matter is that we (you, me, CotN, etc.) needs to "do the right thing right" (heard long ago & far away from someone else). What I sense is that the organizational tweaking avoids serious study whether we're doing "the right thing" - rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

And I fear that we're accumulating issues for which we'll be held accountable by our Master :basic04

[Mike McVey]

We just had the whole shebang last weekend. I've been to a few different NMI conventions - some were definitely more fun than others.

Mostly my experience has been that NMI is expensive - Buying all the source books and workbooks, etc. Granted the church I am at now has not done NMI in over 6 years and the church I was at before had not done it in over 10 years, having a heart for local NMI is expensive. But this is all beside the point.

How many of our churches mention missions in a non-NMI way in the main worship service? I can't help but mention our brothers and sisters overseas whenever I preach from the gospels, but I have never been to a church that talks about missions in a non-NMI way. When I say non-NMI, I mean talking about missions in conjunction with Alabaster, Faith Promise, NCM, or WEF, etc would qualify as talking about missions in a NMI way.

I guess that is all I have to say. Oh well.

[Gene Tatsch]

...the church I am at now has not done NMI in over 6 years and the church I was at before had not done it in over 10 years, ...
How many of our churches mention missions in a non-NMI way in the main worship service? I can't help but mention our brothers and sisters overseas whenever I preach from the gospels, ...

I hope someone at headquarters is lurking!
Our church is similar ... only minimal ... and nothing like "I can't help but mention ..."
No "newsbreaks" of how His church is thriving (even in CotN :)).
Seems bizarre, for the world-wide, time-spanning group commanded to "love one another, just as I have loved you":fun06

gene --

[Ryan Scott]

How many of our churches mention missions in a non-NMI way in the main worship service? I can't help but mention our brothers and sisters overseas whenever I preach from the gospels, but I have never been to a church that talks about missions in a non-NMI way. When I say non-NMI, I mean talking about missions in conjunction with Alabaster, Faith Promise, NCM, or WEF, etc would qualify as talking about missions in a NMI way.


I think the fact that so many people think/feel this way is NMI's biggest failure. The whole purpose of NMI is/was to essentially spread the word about what the Church of the Nazarene was/is doing around the world. If you're speaking and focusing on missions without having an NMI, you don't need an NMI.

The problem arose when NMI instituted so many different programs and plans that local congregations felt burdened by them. Many congregations have shifted their focus from "mission" to "NMI" and I don't know anyone who wanted that to happen.

I think Daniel Ketchum is working hard to change perspective on these things, but it's undoing a lot of years of moving the wrong direction.

[Mike McVey]

I think the fact that so many people think/feel this way is NMI's biggest failure. The whole purpose of NMI is/was to essentially spread the word about what the Church of the Nazarene was/is doing around the world. If you're speaking and focusing on missions without having an NMI, you don't need an NMI.

The problem arose when NMI instituted so many different programs and plans that local congregations felt burdened by them. Many congregations have shifted their focus from "mission" to "NMI" and I don't know anyone who wanted that to happen.

I think Daniel Ketchum is working hard to change perspective on these things, but it's undoing a lot of years of moving the wrong direction.

I didn't think pushing the thank you button was enough.

[Barb Bouldrey]

It really bothers me that anyone would say that all the NMI does is irrelevant to helping young believers become global Christians. But the fault lies in the local church.

Over the years, NMI leaders in the local church have made missions boring. A lot of churches find someone...ANYONE...who is willing to lead NMI just to fill a position. They have no passion and no enthusiasm for missions and for reaching the lost. Over the years I have warned my local presidents to make missions exicitng and "please do not read the lesson to the people." Many pastors and church boards have discontinued mission services because no one wants to attend the boring meeting.

As we began the 21st century, I have tried to teach my presidents to get outside the box, outside the local meeting and take missions to every area of the church, using all age groups. But some still do as they always have done...and are missing the mark.

As to Faith Promise.....if you read the Manual under NMI and Faith Promise, you will see that it is NOT just to raise the WEF. I speak at Faith Promise services occasionally and see how each church does it differently...according to their needs. Just read the book.

Every district and every local church does NMI differently.

What we need is a person in each church who becomes "Mr. NMI" or "Mrs. NMI" filled with excitement and enthusiasm and creativity.....but that is rare.

Barb
District NMI President who has her convention Aug. 12th

[Mike McVey]

Barb,

Excuse my ignorance, but is this a response to me?

[Gene Tatsch]

... the fault lies in the local church.
... Over the years, NMI leaders in the local church have made missions boring. A lot of churches find someone...ANYONE...who is willing to lead NMI just to fill a position. They have no passion and no enthusiasm ...... Many pastors and church boards have discontinued mission services because no one wants to attend the boring meeting.
...What we need is a person in each church who becomes "Mr. NMI" or "Mrs. NMI" filled with excitement and enthusiasm and creativity.....but that is rare.


Yes, there may be fault in the local church ... and yes, as with any initiative (not merely the "program") a champion with passion and enthusiasm is essential.
Its disheartening when the local organization "fills the position" - and it seems to happen throughout the local church ... apparently so the reports to the district show a person in each slot ... regardless of their passion :basic04

Yet the pastor, the local leader, must "bestow" his/her passion, in order for good things to happen, he/she must lead the flock to be interested AND must permit time for passionate, useful presentations.

So your good encouragement comes to naught without a local champion, without essential pastoral "buy in". :gen06

[Barb Bouldrey]

Oh, yes, so often the pastor is the key to the "missions mood" in the church. I have seen pastors arrive who dislike anything to do with missions and refuse to have a missionary in their pulpit. Then I have seen mission-minded pastors change the mindset of their church.

If a pastor is not mission minded, the church needs to send him/her on a Work and Witness trip.

And, Mike McVey, my response was to all of the recent posts. One person mentioned the word "irrelevant", but I did not check to see who said that. One person did not seem to clearly understand Faith Promise. And a couple of people mentioned that their church had not had mission services in many years.

My response was to the compilation of posts preceding my response.

And I totally agree with the person who mentioned that some have become "NMI Minded" instead of "Mission Minded." We are not here to maintain a program, but to promote the Gospel to the lost of the world and support our missionaries. It is very easy to get caught up with meeting goals and promoting offerings and reading books and doing our duty, without actually reaching out to the lost. If we meet all of our goals and have not reached the lost, what have we gained except a few certificates handed to us at district convention?

Barb

[Gene Tatsch]

...
If a pastor is not mission minded, the church needs to send him/her on a Work and Witness trip.
... If we meet all of our goals and have not reached the lost, what have we gained except a few certificates handed to us at district convention?
Barb

Ohhh - the vision that comes to my twisted head ... a non-mission-minded pastor on a Work and Witness trip ... I wonder who would be the most miserable :rolleyes:

And YES - if we merely meet program goals, we've completely missed it Matthew 7:22-23 :gen06

[Barb Bouldrey]

Gene,

I could tell you story after story of pastors who have gone on Work & Wintess trips and come back with a changed vision for missions. I have never heard of one pastor who has gone, even reluctantly, who has not come back testifying to the spiritual growth and vision for world missions that the trip created in them.

No church would send a pastor who did not want to go. That pastor has the right to turn down the offer...and that happens.

Our district has taken two "pastors only" trips and it was suggested we try to get a few pastors on each trip that were not mission minded. On both trips we saw pastors who came back changed and excited about missions.

The first trip we took was right after 9-11. Some pastors backed out because of the fear of flying during that time and being in another country. One pastor's wife refused to fly and stayed home. But while on that trip, God began speaking to that pastor about missions and today he and his wife are serving as missionaries in their first term. God not only changed his heart toward missions, God called him to be a missionary.

I have never heard of one time when a pastor has gone on Work & Witness and been miserable or unproductive on the trip....unless they became ill or were seriously injured.

I have one pastor who was very negative toward mission giving who went on a W& W trip and has now been on about 8 trips. His church not only gives generously to missions, they help support pastors on other fields as extra giving. That pastor got the vision for missions and has led his church in becoming one of the most mission minded churches on our district.

Barb

[Gene Tatsch]

... I have never heard of one pastor who has gone, even reluctantly, who has not come back testifying to the spiritual growth and vision for world missions that the trip created in them.
... One pastor's wife refused to fly and stayed home. But while on that trip, God began speaking to that pastor about missions and today he and his wife are serving as missionaries in their first term. God not only changed his heart toward missions, God called him to be a missionary.

I have never heard of one time when a pastor has gone on Work & Witness and been miserable or unproductive on the trip....unless they became ill or were seriously injured.
...
I hope you knew my tongue was in my cheek (hmmm ... maybe there's a smiley for that :basic03) about sending an unwilling pastor.

But thanks much for relating how you have specifically seen God work -- sometimes in this messy world, I get distracted and forget. I grew up in a family where our denominational missionaries were our friends, because they were in our home frequently - so "missions" were "family" in all ways. It is so painful when a group claiming to be the Body of Christ ignores other members of the Body with a narrow (local) focus.

[Ryan Scott]

It really bothers me that anyone would say that all the NMI does is irrelevant to helping young believers become global Christians. But the fault lies in the local church.

Over the years, NMI leaders in the local church have made missions boring. A lot of churches find someone...ANYONE...who is willing to lead NMI just to fill a position. They have no passion and no enthusiasm for missions and for reaching the lost. Over the years I have warned my local presidents to make missions exicitng and "please do not read the lesson to the people." Many pastors and church boards have discontinued mission services because no one wants to attend the boring meeting.


I think this is where the generational gap arises. If a congregation needs a separate missions meeting, they're already missing out. Mission needs to be a part of the congregation as a whole and not something saved for one Sunday or Wednesday night a month.

It seems like NMI has become just something we do, rather than a part of the congregation. If the congregation has an identity apart from mission, there are huge, huge problems.

I think the job of NMI in a congregation and the denomination as a whole should be to make themselves irrelevant - because mission has become so connected to what we do that we don't need to separate it.

It might not be true everywhere, but it is very true in a lot of places - and it should be celebrated.

[William Hunter]

I do not believe it is the local church's fault for missions having disconnect. Yes, there is plenty of of fault there, the the Dist. NMI is just as much at fault. Too few conv. actually change enough to attract younger families and teens. We do not with intent, involve younger people in leadership positions. Here on are dist. we are making some changes toward youth with great intent and as a 61 yr. pastor, I think it is about time.

[Barb Bouldrey]

When you are saying "we do not with intent involve youth"....you are not speaking of the NMI in general any more. Not since Dan Ketchum was hired. It takes time to install these changes, but you will see them.

General convention is centered around training young people. I mean, Global Conference.

With intent, I have college age and high school age pages who have calls to missions. With intent I have a ONU graduate, class of 2008 as my worship leader. With intent, I have a soloist who is22 and one in her 30's. With intent 1/2 my council ballot is under 40 and almost 1/2 of my delegate ballot is under 50. With intent, the couple doing my skit in under 50 and the guy doing my commerical breaks is 22.

Be careful of generalizations when you do not know what each district is doing.

I agree that most district conventions have been attended by those over 50, but our convention is always after school starts.

Also, with the Mission Call Coordinator program, we are intentionally trying to find and help the youth who feel called to missions. Our district has an overnight missions emphasis for children at our campgrounds and provide missionaries in residence at every teen and pre-teen camp.

The way it has been for years IS CHANGING.....NATIONWIDE.

Barb

P.S. I forgot to mention that I also have a 30-voice children's choir singing in my evening rally

[Stan Self]

For the past eight years, the team that I currently work with has been engaged, at their invitation, in assisting local churches to be more strategic and effective in their global outreach. In working with over 200 churches having memberships ranging from 150 to 8,000, a few observations can be made.


The missions model that served my parents generation so well is no longer that well received. That model where a denominational mission board says "give me your money and we will do missions for you" simply doesn't play with younger generations. Today's church wants more of a model where they have input and influence in outreach objectives. They are looking for a board that will serve as a partner rather than a benevolent dictator.

Missions should be holistic, dealing with the whole person. They feel all missions should compassionate. Having a subset of missions dealing with mercy and compassion is like having a Department of Transportation and Trains.

Churches today are much more likely to understand the global nature of missions. Just as they can point out their own town on the globe, they can also find that place where the good news is not yet available. They understand that God has called the church to both places and everything between.

As Ryan has rightly stated, today's church is more and more seeing missions not as a program of the church, but something that is part of the church's DNA and is to be carried out in everything we do. As we say, "Missions is the mission of the church."


I think there will always be need for a local church mission team. But that team will not be just a promoter of some other entity's agenda ,but a mobilizer for strategic engagement in missions locally, nationally, and internationally.

[Barb Bouldrey]

In a discussion with the General NMI President recently, Eunice shared with me that we are seeing more "hands on" missions than ever before. People not only want to give, they want to DO.

Work & Wintess, Mission Corps(volunteers) and Compassionate Ministries are the fastest growing areas of NMI. We just finished our church year and I just finished the work for my convention. As I looked at the district financial report from Kansas City, I am amazed at the amount the churches on our district gave to Work & Witness and Compassionate Ministries.

As we prepared for the 21st Century, the district presidents heard a sociologist who told us that people need to "see" missions as people, not just as giving or programs. They want faces to their giving.

What worked 20 years ago does not work today. We should step forward into the technical world of the internet, DVD, Power Point, etc. and get out of the NMI service box. More and more churches are realizing how unproductive we are and that we are not getting through to today's generation with our old methods.

Of course, that means that old dogs need to learn new tricks. And, that is not always easy, or wanted.

Barb, an old dog who is TRYING to learn

[Gina Stevenson]

Of course, that means that old dogs need to learn new tricks. And, that is not always easy, or wanted.

Barb, an old dog who is TRYING to learn

19138

(well, I tho't I had an animated dog, but couldn't find him! So, here's a running ram ... maybe trying to "catch up with the times," such as this "old dog" mentioned here? :basic05)

[Mike McVey]

I think this is where the generational gap arises. If a congregation needs a separate missions meeting, they're already missing out. Mission needs to be a part of the congregation as a whole and not something saved for one Sunday or Wednesday night a month.

It seems like NMI has become just something we do, rather than a part of the congregation. If the congregation has an identity apart from mission, there are huge, huge problems.

I think the job of NMI in a congregation and the denomination as a whole should be to make themselves irrelevant - because mission has become so connected to what we do that we don't need to separate it.

It might not be true everywhere, but it is very true in a lot of places - and it should be celebrated.

This has been gnawing at my mind the past few days. I don't think I disagree with anything in here, but I wonder how transferable your words would be with something like NYI. Should we have a separate department of NYI?

[Jon Twitchell]

I think there is a difference...

Well, there may be a difference in practice... even though it shouldn't exist in theory.

The difference is that NYI actually DOES youth ministry.
NMI (in many (most?) cases) ONLY educates & fundraises about missions.


(Now, I realize, that many churches and districts have NMIs that DO missions. But unfortunately, I would guess that is the exception, not the rule.)

[Ryan Scott]

This has been gnawing at my mind the past few days. I don't think I disagree with anything in here, but I wonder how transferable your words would be with something like NYI. Should we have a separate department of NYI?


I think it depends on what NYI does. If I'm not mistaken, NYI was created to give teenagers and young adults a specific place within the denomination and to train future leaders.

I suppose its not inconceivable that a congregation could be accomplishing these things without a specific program of ministry to youth, but I don't think it's all that common.

[Mike McVey]

Just causing trouble, that's all. I figured Jon would be one of the first who would respond. :cool:

I'm just thinking out loud. Nothing more.

[Jon Twitchell]

I figured Jon would be one of the first who would respond. :cool:


Now what's that supposed to mean?!?

:D

[David Pettigrew]

Should we have a separate department of NYI?

No. Compartmentalizing our youth is probably the main reason we lose them.

[Mike McVey]

Now what's that supposed to mean?!?

:D

I read what you have to say and I've heard a few of your sermons. It just seems logical you would respond.

[Mike McVey]

No. Compartmentalizing our youth is probably the main reason we lose them.

I don't necessarily disagree. But I do wonder how many churches actually incorporate the youth as apart of today's church.

[David Pettigrew]

I don't necessarily disagree. But I do wonder how many churches actually incorporate the youth as apart of today's church.

Too few, and I'm afraid having a separate "department" contributes to this.

This does not mean I don't think we should have specialized youth resources, camps, youth groups, etc. I just see the auxiliary organization as one more set of meetings to attend.

If we're looking to create another generation of church done by position and committee, an auxiliary organization is the way to train them for it.

What if, instead, we actually began to let youth lead worship, or teach sunday school, or serve on church boards:eek::eek::eek:?

[Mike McVey]

What if, instead, we actually began to let youth... serve on church boards:eek::eek::eek:?

On this point particularly, I find it interesting how many NYI presidents are over the age of 30. I know of several churches that would rather have a 50 year old NYI prez then use a capable teenager or no office at all.

[Mike McVey]

Too few, and I'm afraid having a separate "department" contributes to this.

This does not mean I don't think we should have specialized youth resources, camps, youth groups, etc. I just see the auxiliary organization as one more set of meetings to attend.

If we're looking to create another generation of church done by position and committee, an auxiliary organization is the way to train them for it.

What if, instead, we actually began to let youth lead worship, or teach sunday school, or serve on church boards:eek::eek::eek:?

There is way too much I agree with on this. Though I do remember the NYI training seminar you taught a couple years ago at Richardson. I still have the ppt presentation.

[David Pettigrew]

There is way too much I agree with on this. Though I do remember the NYI training seminar you taught a couple years ago at Richardson. I still have the ppt presentation.

Full disclosure - I have served in about every NYI office there is, from local president to district president, and the people who work in NYI are the best people in our denomination, IMO, from the global leadership on down to the local volunteers. In fact, I would say Global NYI is already doing many of the things talked about in the Nazarene Renewal forum. The problem is their creativity and empowering leadership are confined to one department! If only we could let them leaven the church.

[Barb Bouldrey]

OH PLEASE....only the NYI have creativity??????????

You need to attend some of the other global conference meetings.

To have youth serve as teachers and board members they need to be saved, sanctified and faithful. I know, we often questions these qualifications in some of our older adults, but it still is important.

Again, we get into trouble when we generalize.

I can name churches that have teens who teach Sunday School classes. I can name churches where teens serve as NYI presidents and are thus members of the church board.

But I can also name churches that have NO teens who attend faithfully and some churches have NO teens who are spiritually ready to serve in the church.

We have a teen who runs our Power Point every Sunday morning. We have a teen who is starting his second year at Trevecca next week who substitutes as teacher in the teen class and is helping a New Start in Nashville when he is at school. Our teens,along with their leader, are doing a VBS for our children every Sunday morning in August. Their leader is the only adult involved. Of course, it is a small group.

Back to creativity....Dr.Dan Ketchum is ooozing with it. His main emphasis is on training, discipling and using youth. This next Global Conference will not resemble the past conventions in many areas.

What we need is faithful, mature adult Christians who are willing to take the time to mentor and disciple young teen Christians and teach them how to serve. Of course, we often have a problem finding adult Christians who are willing to serve.

Barb

[Jon Twitchell]

Barb,

I know that I was only speaking in huge generalizations when I said that NMI primarily educates about ministry, while NYI primarily does ministry to youth.

I'm pretty sure that David was speaking in similar generalities... And the fact is, for the average layperson in the pew, perception is reality. It doesn't matter what is going on at the top (of either organization), if the leader at the local church isn't able to capture and reproduce that vision.

I think that is the fundamental disconnect that we're talking about here-- perhaps we simply need to be more patient to see a trickle-down effect.

I certainly don't intend to have started some sort of competition between our two auxiliaries... I hope my words did not come across that way.

[Ryan Scott]

OH PLEASE....only the NYI have creativity?


It's not that NYI is the only group with creativity, but they're the only group, thus far, which has been able to vote it into practice. Let's hope that changed in 10 months time.

[Barb Bouldrey]

How do you vote in creativity? I guess you need to define creativity to fit what you are saying.

Thanks, Jon, you helped me see what YOU are saying in a new light. When you say NMI teaches about ministry and NYI ministers, you are basically correct. NMI is a SUPPORT ministry for our missionaries and our programs where NYI is a DOING ministry for our youth.

It is things like Compassionate Ministries, Crisis Care Kits and Work & Witness that go beyond teaching and supporting to DOING. Our Mission Call Coordinator program is to find, support and train youth who feel a call to missions.

Several General Conventions ago, there was a resolution to make NMI a department of its own, not an auxillary of the Department of World Missions. But it failed. You see, NYI is an auxillary of the church...a separate branch. But NMI is an auxillary of the auxillary: the Department of World Missions. I do not think many people understand that.

Barb

[David Pettigrew]

OH PLEASE....only the NYI have creativity??????????

Barb

Barb, I was not saying that only the NYI have creativity.

What I'm saying is that I wish the folks that brought us...

a) a totally rewritten charter in 2001 that basically said each local and district NYI was free to set up their organization however the heck it best worked for them, and

b) in 2005 voted to allow offsite voting for a truly global convention

...could be freed up to serve in the other arms of the church, rather than just kept with the "young people" where they can't shake things up too much.

Anyone who thinks there's no creativity in NMI has never seen a grown man dressed as an alabaster box, or sang a song about LINKS to the tune of "Give Me Oil in My Lamp."

Certainly no offense was intended, and I don't think it's healthy to have a competition between the various departments. Nazarenes are territorial enough as it is. So, I apologize.

[David Pettigrew]

...NYI is leading the charge in restructuring.

Our district NYI has an online convention. Justin Pickard, our dp, was the creative force behind this.

All locally elected delegates are issued a password. They log in, read reports, vote. They are given about a ten day span to do this, and emails are issued to log back in if there are any ties. That's it.

We do meet, but since all the business is done online, it's simply to worship and play.

Now imagine an entire district assembly like that!

[Mike McVey]

...NYI is leading the charge in restructuring.

Our district NYI has an online convention. Justin Pickard, our dp, was the creative force behind this.

All locally elected delegates are issued a password. They log in, read reports, vote. They are given about a ten day span to do this, and emails are issued to log back in if there are any ties. That's it.

We do meet, but since all the business is done online, it's simply to worship and play.

Now imagine an entire district assembly like that!

I remember when Justin got voted as the new NYI Prez (8 years ago :eek:). I'm glad to see that he and the NYI council are willing to experiment with new ideas.

[Cindi Hammons]

Our district NYI has an online convention. Justin Pickard, our dp, was the creative force behind this.

It might solve the problem of having only the most "popular," "well-known faces", who are actually present at the conventions being voted as representatives. Online voting could give access to real bios (not just, "Susie could you stand up please?") and provide a lot more information for voting.

I really like the idea of an online convention.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Online convention......that sounds so modern and so classy. LOL

I have 65 churches and only 32 emails addresses for local presidents. We actually have a few pastors who do not have computers and are afraid to learn how to use them.

To have an online NMI convention each church on my district would have to find someone who was really good with computers and the internet to be in charge of the local set up. I am afraid that I would still have a few churches that would not participate.

I guess the only solution would be to have an online convention where zones or nearby churches met together in a fellowship room when someone who knew what they were doing, did it.

Of course, at NMI convention last week, we had 5 churches who did not show up with any delegates or even the pastor....so a few missing the online convention would be about the same thing.

It would be expensive to get materials to the churches in a mailing, but then again, a lot of it can be put on links on our district website.

Hmmmmm.....it is something to think about. LOL

But I sure would miss hearing a missionary speak and miss the fellowship.

Barb

[Hans Deventer]

Online convention......that sounds so modern and so classy. LOL

I have 65 churches and only 32 emails addresses for local presidents. We actually have a few pastors who do not have computers and are afraid to learn how to use them.

Well, that goes to show why the NYI is leading in that area :basic05

[Susan Unger]

But I sure would miss hearing a missionary speak and miss the fellowship.

Barb

That's my favorite part!

[David Pettigrew]

The only part of the NYI convention that is done online is the voting and the reports - in other words, the boring stuff.

There is still an NYI district "gathering" with praise and worship, drama, and a speaker, followed by an event at a local laser tag.

So, it would be very conceivable to still have a mission rally or banquet during district assembly, with the results of elections announced and installation of officers.