Worms that don't die

[Kevin Rector]

In Mark 9:48 Jesus makes reference to Isaiah 66:24:

"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

What does Isaiah mean when he talks about their worm which will not die?

[Hans Deventer]

In Mark 9:48 Jesus makes reference to Isaiah 66:24:



What does Isaiah mean when he talks about their worm which will not die?

The passage speaks of total and utter consumption. Neither the worm nor the fire will stop before the total destruction is completed.

(E.W. Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, p 112)

[Randy Wise]

In Mark 9:48 Jesus makes reference to Isaiah 66:24:



What does Isaiah mean when he talks about their worm which will not die?

That speaks to me of eternal ongoing suffering.

Randy

[Hans Deventer]

That speaks to me of eternal ongoing suffering.

Randy

Sure. If that is what you believe in, you'll read it everywhere. But here, it can't be. They are dead. So whatever goes on there for whatever time period, it happens to "dead bodies".

The passages reminds of Isaiah 37:36 - "Then the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the next morning—there were all the dead bodies!"

So the prophet is telling us here that something like this but on a much larger scale will happen at the end of time. The righteous will see the corpses of the wicked, as the NASB has it. Now "dead bodies" and "corpses" are, how can I put it, dead.

It also reminds of Jeremiah 25:33 - "At that time those slain by the LORD will be everywhere—from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground." The prophets are quite consistent in the image.

In the OT, if you weren't buried, it was an image of utter contempt. Think of Jezebel (2 Kings 9:10). To be burned was disgraceful too (Joshua 7:25, Amos 2:1), which brings us to the discussion about cremation but that is quite another story.

Because the fire isn't quenched or extinguished, it completely consumes that what is put in it. The figure of unquenchable fire is frequent in the Scriptures and signifies a fire that consumes (Ezek 20:47-48), reduces to nothing (Amos 5:6), or burns up something (Matt 3:12). Both worms and fire speak of a total and final destruction. Both terms also make this a loathsome scene. The righteous view it with disgust, but not pity. The final picture is one of shame, not pain.

[Randy Wise]

Sure. If that is what you believe in, you'll read it everywhere. But here, it can't be. They are dead. So whatever goes on there for whatever time period, it happens to "dead bodies".

The passages reminds of Iasiah 37:36 - "Then the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the next morning—there were all the dead bodies!"

So the prophet is telling us here that something like this but on a much larger scale will happen at the end of time. The righteous will see the corpses of the wicked, as the NASB has it. Now "dead bodies" and "corpses" are, how can I put it, dead.

It also reminds of Jeremiah 25:33 - "At that time those slain by the LORD will be everywhere—from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground." The prophets are quite consistent in the image.

In the OT, if you weren't buried, it was an image of utter contempt. Think of Jezebel (2 Kings 9:10). To be burned was disgraceful too (Joshua 7:25, Amos 2:1), which brings us to the discussion about cremation but that is quite another story.

Because the fire isn't quenched or extinguished, it completely consumes that what is put in it. The figure of unquenchable fire is frequent in the Scriptures and signifies a fire that consumes (Ezek 20:47-48), reduces to nothing (Amos 5:6), or burns up something (Matt 3:12). Both worms and fire speak of a total and final destruction. Both terms also make this a loathsome scene. The righteous view it with disgust, but not pity. The final picture is one of shame, not pain.

Jesus is teaching in mark about eternal judgment. That doesn't suggest to me dead bodies.
Randy

2"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[c] 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[d] 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[e] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

[Hans Deventer]

Jesus is teaching in mark about eternal judgment. That doesn't suggest to me dead bodies.

It's actually the very same story, a direct quote from the Isaiah text. It's all about destruction with eternal consequences. Not about eternal punishment.

Randy, don't get me wrong, I am not at all trying to convince you that any of your interpretations of the Scriptures is wrong. I would never in my lifetime be able to do that.

Anyway, it that isn't the case this time and you're actually interested in the subject, I can recommend Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes. It deals with each and every biblical text on the issue, with the intertestamental books and with the development of the doctrine since the apostles. You'll find that the Biblical testimony, apart from one single text, is abundantly clear. Which says enough about how to read that one text.

BTW, this view of destruction actually does away with the view, popping up time and time again, that, because the wicked are also made immortal, somehow, hell will be some kind of purgatory and all will ultimately be saved.

[Jon Twitchell]

From what little Jewish Cultural studies I have done, it is my understanding that this passage refers primarily to the valley of Gehenna (or Ben Hinnom) which is the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. That was where the sewage channels in the city drained. That was where the trash was thrown. That was where dead animals were disponsed of... and it is where unclean human corpses were left as well. It also served as the primary Jewish picture for hell.

[Randy Wise]

From what little Jewish Cultural studies I have done, it is my understanding that this passage refers primarily to the valley of Gehenna (or Ben Hinnom) which is the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. That was where the sewage channels in the city drained. That was where the trash was thrown. That was where dead animals were disponsed of... and it is where unclean human corpses were left as well. It also served as the primary Jewish picture for hell.

I don't see any of that in the text.

Randy

[Randy Wise]

It's actually the very same story, a direct quote from the Isaiah text. It's all about destruction with eternal consequences. Not about eternal punishment.



I agree on the eternal consequences. I take it you are a believer in annihilationism?

Randy

[Jon Twitchell]

I don't see any of that in the text.

Randy


Thanks for the astute observation. I thought I made it quite clear that the source of my thoughts was from Jewish cultural studies, not from the text. Apparently, I was not clear enough.

However, since you made that comment, I would advise that you take a closer look at the text, where you will find what I said. For when you look at the Greek text, you will not find the words "Hades" (Greek) nor "Sheol" (Hebrew), but "Gehenna," which is a Greek form of the actual location known as the Valley (or Ravine) of "Ben Hinnom."

So, in order to understand the text, we have to know what Jesus meant by "Gehenna," and what his listeners would have understood him to mean.

I submit to you that the Jewish understanding of hell was closely related to Gehenna, or Ben Hinnom... the valley that I referenced in my previous post.

[Hans Deventer]

I submit to you that the Jewish understanding of hell was closely related to Gehenna, or Ben Hinnom... the valley that I referenced in my previous post.

The only thing I wonder is if that relation was there in the Isaiah text. I'm not sure if in his days, the valley of Hinnom was already carrying that same image as it had in Jesus' day. Do you have any information on that, Jon?

[Hans Deventer]

I agree on the eternal consequences. I take it you are a believer in annihilationism?

Yes. The word is usually "perish" or "(second) death", but it comes down to annihilation.

[Jon Twitchell]

Good question... after all, Kevin's question was about the Isaiah text... :)

In Jeremiah's time, the valley was associated with worship of Baal and Molech (See Jer. 32:35).

If you subscribe to a deutero-Isaiah theory, then Isaiah 66 would have been written during the same time period.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

2"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[c] 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[d] 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[e] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

Interestingly enough, a lot of people take this to prove a literal, "not die," and a literal, "fire." However, I haven't run across anyone who advocate actually amputating limbs or plucking out eyes...

Wilson

[Randy Wise]

Interestingly enough, a lot of people take this to prove a literal, "not die," and a literal, "fire." However, I haven't run across anyone who advocate actually amputating limbs or plucking out eyes...

Wilson

Then the punishment Jesus was stating must have been quite serious if He advocated such statements about cutting off body parts that caused one to sin.
As I stated before this scripture speaks to me of a ongoing suffering, a worm that doesn't die, but as with Hans I am content with eternal consequences.

Randy

[Randy Wise]

Thanks for the astute observation. I thought I made it quite clear that the source of my thoughts was from Jewish cultural studies, not from the text. Apparently, I was not clear enough.

However, since you made that comment, I would advise that you take a closer look at the text, where you will find what I said. For when you look at the Greek text, you will not find the words "Hades" (Greek) nor "Sheol" (Hebrew), but "Gehenna," which is a Greek form of the actual location known as the Valley (or Ravine) of "Ben Hinnom."

So, in order to understand the text, we have to know what Jesus meant by "Gehenna," and what his listeners would have understood him to mean.

I submit to you that the Jewish understanding of hell was closely related to Gehenna, or Ben Hinnom... the valley that I referenced in my previous post.

I read what Jesus taught and I saw a warning that spoke to me of eternal consequences of continued acts of sin. That meaning was quite clear to me and easy to understand. I don't believe that word takes away from a literal place of punishment and I believe a literal place of punishment was understood in Jesus's day. As in 1 Peter 3:19

Randy

[Charles W Christian]

I don't see any of that in the text.

Randy

You don't see any of that in the text, Randy? None at all? So, there's absolutely nowhere in the text -- the text we're speakin of -- that has any hint of mentioning anything in Jewish culture and tradition that would be imagery that is "hell like"??? Really??

More likely it seems you don't want to be troubled with any kinds of facts, since they may (or may not -- you won't know if you refuse to see) conflict with opinions you hold strongly.

C'mon....look it up at least, before you say "no hint of it", etc.

Charles

[Charles W Christian]

The only thing I wonder is if that relation was there in the Isaiah text. I'm not sure if in his days, the valley of Hinnom was already carrying that same image as it had in Jesus' day. Do you have any information on that, Jon?

It seems that there's not a "fully developed" idea of what happens after death in the OT at all. There are allusions and hints here and there, but not near the clarity that we see in NT (obviously because of the resurrection).

We can "read back" into some OT things, but that's not always the best way to interpret something.

So, Hans, you're right (if I'm reading you right) in seeing that the pictures/imagery regarding after death sorts of things was more clear by Jesus' time than in Isaiah's time, and the Christian assertions about eternal life and not fearing death is clearer only after Jesus' resurrection.

Thanks,
Charles

[Hans Deventer]

It seems that there's not a "fully developed" idea of what happens after death in the OT at all. There are allusions and hints here and there, but not near the clarity that we see in NT (obviously because of the resurrection).

We can "read back" into some OT things, but that's not always the best way to interpret something.

So, Hans, you're right (if I'm reading you right) in seeing that the pictures/imagery regarding after death sorts of things was more clear by Jesus' time than in Isaiah's time, and the Christian assertions about eternal life and not fearing death is clearer only after Jesus' resurrection.

Yes, I do agree about the development. I recall reading though that up to the return the exiles, the basic philosophy was that God punished evil and would bless those that abided by His covenant. However, when the Greek kings came (especially Antiochus IV) and the Jews resisted to the attempts to Hellenize them, the faithful got martyred and the evil ones prospered, which led them to believe that it would be in the afterlife that God would set things right. Apparently, by the time of Jesus, that idea was widespread, safe for among the Sudducees.

The New Testament writers (indeed because of the resurrection) developed the teaching further, especially regarding the fate of the believers. It remains to be seen though if fate of the evil ones, the "second death" that the NT talks about it much different from what Isaiah is referring to. It seems Jesus quotes the verse with agreement.

[Randy Wise]

You don't see any of that in the text, Randy? None at all? So, there's absolutely nowhere in the text -- the text we're speakin of -- that has any hint of mentioning anything in Jewish culture and tradition that would be imagery that is "hell like"??? Really??

More likely it seems you don't want to be troubled with any kinds of facts, since they may (or may not -- you won't know if you refuse to see) conflict with opinions you hold strongly.

C'mon....look it up at least, before you say "no hint of it", etc.

Charles

JM=>Thanks for the astute observation. I thought I made it quite clear that the source of my thoughts was from Jewish cultural studies, not from the text. Apparently, I was not clear enough.


Randy

[Jon Twitchell]

Randy... did you read the rest of that post you just quoted?

Because if you did, you would see that your comment had driven me to look closer in the text, and that IN FACT, the text does speak of the valley of Ben Hinnom.

So... while my original post was a result of my interest in Jewish culture, my second post was a result of the study of the text.

[Randy Wise]

Randy... did you read the rest of that post you just quoted?

Because if you did, you would see that your comment had driven me to look closer in the text, and that IN FACT, the text does speak of the valley of Ben Hinnom.

So... while my original post was a result of my interest in Jewish culture, my second post was a result of the study of the text.

Is below in bold what the jewish view of what you stated? Does that make your case inregard to what Jesus was stating? Jesus depicted a different view to me. I also don't hold to purgatory.
Gehinnom
Some view Gehinnom as a place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone. Others imagine it less harshly, as a place where one reviews the actions of his/her life and repents for past misdeed

The name is taken from a valley (Gei Hinnom) just south of Jerusalem

The soul's sentence in Gehinnom is usually limited to a twelve-month period of purgation




You might consider that what Jesus taught wasn't learned from jewish cultural studies, but as one who was before the world began and one who knew what was on the otherside of this life. The word gehenna doesn't take away from what I see as a ongoing suffering "a worm that doesn't die" and that is what I have stated. The word tormented in the book of Rev doesn't speak to me of annihilation in regard to the 2nd death. Both of those texts are in regard to judgment of those found guilty of sin. Hence Jesus's warning in Mark.

Randy

[Jon Twitchell]

Randy,

I think what you're missing here is that I wasn't trying "to make a case." I was simply providing information about the word that is translated "hell" in our Bibles.

You replied that you didn't see that in the text.

I replied that I was initially speaking based upon something that I had learned about Jewish culture... but that when I looked again at the text, it was pretty clear that the word used was "Gehenna."

Again... I'm not arguing a case here... I was simply providing some information. You all are free to use the point I presented to argue your cases one way or the other...

What I objected to was your "discounting" of my comment because you couldn't find that anywhere in the text, when in fact, the word Gehenna is clearly in the text.

[Randy Wise]

Randy,

I think what you're missing here is that I wasn't trying "to make a case." I was simply providing information about the word that is translated "hell" in our Bibles.

You replied that you didn't see that in the text.

I replied that I was initially speaking based upon something that I had learned about Jewish culture... but that when I looked again at the text, it was pretty clear that the word used was "Gehenna."

Again... I'm not arguing a case here... I was simply providing some information. You all are free to use the point I presented to argue your cases one way or the other...

What I objected to was your "discounting" of my comment because you couldn't find that anywhere in the text, when in fact, the word Gehenna is clearly in the text.

Ok - though I don't see that Gehenna as Jesus used the term as what you see, (a valley), but I do see your point. I think hell is the proper usage in the context Jesus was teaching.

Randy

[Dennis Bratcher]

Ok - though I don't see that Gehenna as Jesus used the term as what you see, (a valley), but I do see your point. I think hell is the proper usage in the context Jesus was teaching.

This is not a matter of interpretation, but a matter of language. The term gehenna in Greek is a transliteration of a Hebrew term, gey hinnom. In Hebrew, the word gey is the word "valley," so the phrase gey hinnom means "the valley of Hinnom, or as it was moree commonly known, the Valley of the Son of Hinnom.

This valley in Jerusalem, which also went by the name Tophet, was well known from the earliest Israelite settlement in the area (Josh 15:8, 18:16). It later gained a reputation of being associated with pagan religious practices, which included burnt offerings to Molech, Baal, and other Canaanite gods (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chron 28:3, Jer 32:35). Because of that it was associated with burning and fire throughout most of the later OT, and came to be a metaphor for the judgment of God on idolatry or apostasy. It is Jeremiah that emphasizes the Valley of Hinnom as a place of judgment, a burial ground for those who died as a consequence of their apostasy (Jer 7:31-32, 19:2-6). We cannot really understand the NT use of the “valley of hinnom” or gehenna without taking this background into consideration.

FWIW, while the phrase gey hinnom or gey ben hinnom occurs 13 times in the OT, the word gehenna never occurs in the Hebrew OT nor does it occur in the Greek version of the OT (Septuagint, LXX). That means that it never translates the word sheol. Of the 65 times that Sheol occurs in the OT, it is translated hades 62 times, “death” twice, while the remaining occurrence is paraphrased in the LXX with no direct equivalent. In other words, hades cannot be interchanged with gehenna, as occurred in the KJV, nor can hades be associated with the imagery of fire that is associated with gehenna, as it has been in popular myth.

The Greek term gehenna only occurs 12 times in the NT in 10 passages: Matt 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33, Mark 9:43, 9:45, Mark 9:47, Luke 12:5, James 3:6. While the imagery associate with it is certainly fire and burning, as might be expected from the OT background, not a single one of these passages says or implies eternal punishment in the modern popular notion of hell. In fact, several emphasize destruction, such as Matt 10:28.

None of this is an argument for or against anything. It is simply a call to look closely at the biblical text and work from there.

Grace and peace,

Dennis B.

[Randy Wise]

The Greek term gehenna only occurs 12 times in the NT in 10 passages: Matt 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33, Mark 9:43, 9:45, Mark 9:47, Luke 12:5, James 3:6. While the imagery associate with it is certainly fire and burning, as might be expected from the OT background, not a single one of these passages says or implies eternal punishment in the modern popular notion of hell. In fact, several emphasize destruction, such as Matt 10:28.

None of this is an argument for or against anything. It is simply a call to look closely at the biblical text and work from there.

Grace and peace,

Dennis B.

I actually use eternal consequences in testimony about judgment. From the various usages of gehenna I see a place that souls of the damned are thrown into. Gehenna had to be known as a place or form of punishment thus the usage of the word in regard to judgment. That much we can agree on from the text.

Randy

Luke 12:5

I changed hell to gehenna
5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

[Dennis Bratcher]

I actually use eternal consequences in testimony about judgment. From the various usages of gehenna I see a place that souls of the damned are thrown into. Gehenna had to be known as a place or form of punishment thus the usage of the word in regard to judgment. That much we can agree on from the text.


Still trying to stay with the biblical text. There is not a single occurrence of gehenna in the NT that says anything about "the souls of the damned," with what that means in post-Danteian Christian theology. Matthew repeatedly refers to the body being thrown into gehenna, which against the OT background of gey hinnom implies death and disposal of the body with overtones of judgment. Mark’s usage parallels the Matthew passages. Luke implies gehenna as a place to dispose of corpses, again following the OT use of gey hinnom. James is a metaphorical usage of gehenna focusing on fire as a symbol of judgment. The only ambiguous usage is the 2 Peter passage, which is not about judgment on human beings at all but uses the imagery of angels.

Grace and peace,

Dennis B.

[Hans Deventer]

There is not a single occurrence of gehenna in the NT that says anything about "the souls of the damned," with what that means in post-Danteian Christian theology. Matthew repeatedly refers to the body being thrown into gehenna, which against the OT background of gey hinnom implies death and disposal of the body with overtones of judgment. Mark’s usage parallels the Matthew passages. Luke implies gehenna as a place to dispose of corpses, again following the OT use of gey hinnom. James is a metaphorical usage of gehenna focusing on fire as a symbol of judgment. The only ambiguous usage is the 2 Peter passage, which is not about judgment on human beings at all but uses the imagery of angels.

Dennis, I'm amazed at the fact that these facts seem hardly known and we even base our article of faith more on tradition than on the Scriptures.

[Randy Wise]

Still trying to stay with the biblical text. There is not a single occurrence of gehenna in the NT that says anything about "the souls of the damned," with what that means in post-Danteian Christian theology. Matthew repeatedly refers to the body being thrown into gehenna, which against the OT background of gey hinnom implies death and disposal of the body with overtones of judgment. Mark’s usage parallels the Matthew passages. Luke implies gehenna as a place to dispose of corpses, again following the OT use of gey hinnom. James is a metaphorical usage of gehenna focusing on fire as a symbol of judgment. The only ambiguous usage is the 2 Peter passage, which is not about judgment on human beings at all but uses the imagery of angels.

Grace and peace,

Dennis B.

I see what you state but havn't been through each scripture yet. Somehow I don't see gehenna as the 2nd death even if the 2nd death destroys souls.



Randy

[Randy Wise]

Still trying to stay with the biblical text. There is not a single occurrence of gehenna in the NT that says anything about "the souls of the damned," with what that means in post-Danteian Christian theology. Matthew repeatedly refers to the body being thrown into gehenna, which against the OT background of gey hinnom implies death and disposal of the body with overtones of judgment. Mark’s usage parallels the Matthew passages. Luke implies gehenna as a place to dispose of corpses, again following the OT use of gey hinnom. James is a metaphorical usage of gehenna focusing on fire as a symbol of judgment. The only ambiguous usage is the 2 Peter passage, which is not about judgment on human beings at all but uses the imagery of angels.

Grace and peace,

Dennis B.

I see gehenna as hell and the body that is stated as the person being judged not flesh and blood. I am in agreement with those that follow that line of thought.

Randy

[Dennis Bratcher]

I see gehenna as hell and the body that is stated as the person being judged not flesh and blood. I am in agreement with those that follow that line of thought.

Randy

Why, when that is not what the text says?

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Eric Frey]

Please, gentlemen, don't let the facts get on the way of a good discussion ;)

[Randy Wise]

Why, when that is not what the text says?

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

touche

Randy