Adam and Eve became human after they sin

[Larry Parsons]

This afternoon I visit one our church members and we end up talking about Adam and Eve. He told me that he believed that our 24 hour day system didn't start until Adam and Eve sin. He believe that Adam and Eve were spiritual being and when they sin. God put skin on them. (Gen:3:21) In other word they lost thier gloryfied body and became human. I have a feeling he is not the only who believe this.What is your oppinion on this.
Thank
Larry

[Dennis Bratcher]

This afternoon I visit one our church members and we end up talking about Adam and Eve. He told me that he believed that our 24 hour day system didn't start until Adam and Eve sin. He believe that Adam and Eve were spiritual being and when they sin. God put skin on them. (Gen:3:21) In other word they lost thier gloryfied body and became human. I have a feeling he is not the only who believe this. What is your opinion on this.

It's not what Scripture says. From the beginning of their creation the man and woman are referred to as adam (Gen 1:26), which is the generic Hebrew term for "human being." There is absolutely nothing in the biblical text about a "glorified body," and certainly nothing about them losing it because of sin. The creation of the "human" was already complete long before 3:21, since in 1:31 God pronounces all of creation "good" before he rests on the seventh day. There was not yet some part to be finished later.

Gen 3:21 is about clothing the naked couple with "garments," theologically a symbol for grace in the narrative just as "naked" was a symbol for shame/guilt. The Hebrew word used here translated "skin" occurs 99 times in the Old Testament. It normally refers to animal skins, leather, or hides (for example, Exod 36:19). In only a handful of references does it refer to human skin (Exod 34:29, 30, 34, Moses' face; passages in Lev referring, to skin diseases connected with "flesh" or "body," such as Lev 11:32, 13:2-59, Jere 13:23 referring to color; Ezek 37 referring to skin as part of the human body, Mic 3:3 comparing human skin to animals, etc.).

Gen 3:21 refers to "skins" as garments. Consistently throughout the Old Testament skins as garments refer to animal skins (2 Kings 1:8, Num 19:5, etc.), not to human skin. Nowhere in either Testament is there any reference to human skin being a garment. That is an idea developed from Greek philosophy, used by a group called Gnostics, a group which was generally rejected by the Church as heretical since skin/humanity understood as a garment had serious implications for the reality of the Incarnation (the heresy of docetism).

So, this notion is speculation that moves away from the biblical narrative.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Greg Farra]

Well, I heard Benny Hinn say that Adam was superhuman before the sin in the Garden. So much so that he could fly to the moon!

[Glenda Harvey]

Well, I heard Benny Hinn say that Adam was superhuman before the sin in the Garden. So much so that he could fly to the moon!

This may be where the idea comes from. If Benny Hinn is preaching it, then I am sure there are others out there who believe it.

[Mamie White]

A lot of people think Benny Hinn is superhuman. So much that when he waves his coat everyone is slain in the spirit. I wondered is this really true or did he forget his deodorant. If his actions are real then "Lord forgive me." If they are not real then "Lord forgive him."

[Bob Hunter]

A lot of people think Benny Hinn is superhuman. So much that when he waves his coat everyone is slain in the spirit. I wondered is this really true or did he forget his deodorant. If his actions are real then "Lord forgive me." If they are not real then "Lord forgive him."

What is really sad is the fact that Benny Hinn and his longtime wife got divorced recently. So apparently his superhuman strength wasn't enough to keep his marriage together. Maybe it had something to do with the Hinn's view of the Holy Spirit. Hinn's now estranged wife once proclaimed that people need a Holy Ghost enema.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jhw_5ye8Qo

[Billie Goodson]

Only 6 posts in and we have moved from a sincere question on Adam/Eve to Benny Hinn's divorce, in the theology forum. I do think that Dennis' response was pretty thorough though.

[John Kennedy]

Only 6 posts in and we have moved from a sincere question on Adam/Eve to Benny Hinn's divorce, in the theology forum. I do think that Dennis' response was pretty thorough though.

"Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it...." (The stanza from "Come, thou fount of every blessing..." that DIDN'T make it into the Naz hymnal).

[Gina Stevenson]

"Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it...." (The stanza from "Come, thou fount of every blessing..." that DIDN'T make it into the Naz hymnal).

Why do I know that verse then, John? Betcha it was in one of the older ones if it's not in the current one. I know that's one of the verses I heard long, long, loooooooong ago! ;)

Prone to wander, Lord I feel it,
Prone to leave the Lord I love.
la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
la, la, la, la, la ..... above.

(How's that for forgetting? Tho't I'd remembered tons of what I learned back then, but apparently some words have slipped my mind, after all.)

OK, found the missing words ....

Prone to wander, Lord I feel it,
Prone to leave the Lord I love.
Here's my heart, Lord, take and seal it,
Seal it for thy courts above.

[John Kennedy]

Why do I know that verse then, John? Betcha it was in one of the older ones if it's not in the current one. I know that's one of the verses I heard long, long, loooooooong ago! ;)

Prone to wander, Lord I feel it,
Prone to leave the Lord I love.
la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
la, la, la, la, la ..... above.

(How's that for forgetting? Tho't I'd remembered tons of what I learned back then, but apparently some words have slipped my mind, after all.)

OK, found the missing words ....

Prone to wander, Lord I feel it,
Prone to leave the Lord I love.
Here's my heart, Lord, take and seal it,
Seal it for thy courts above.

You didn't find it in a Nazarene Hymnal. The verse that appears in every Nazarene hymnal that I've ever seen says (if my memory is still working - I'm too lazy tonight to reach for a hymnal):

O to grace how great a debtor, daily I'm constrained to be;
Let that grace now like a fetter bind my yielded heart to Thee.
Let me know thee in thy fulness, guide my by thy mighty hand
Till, transformed in Thine own image, I Thy presence I shall stand.

IMO, both stanzas would go nicely together. One states an almost universal condition, the other states an aspiration. Sure, there's a tension. That tension is, IMO, part and parcel of the Christian experience.

My theory is that the 'prone to wander....' language may be slightly more Classic Wesleyan and the first hymnal was put together when the AHM position was the only game in town.

But, again, I may be mistaken.

[John Kennedy]

I recognize that the above dialogue re 'Come, thou Fount..." is somewhat of a digression. My apologies. But, maybe it's not entirely unrelated. Which version did Adam and Eve saing before sinning and which version after?

[Ryan Plott]

You didn't find it in a Nazarene Hymnal. The verse that appears in every Nazarene hymnal that I've ever seen says (if my memory is still working - I'm too lazy tonight to reach for a hymnal):

O to grace how great a debtor, daily I'm constrained to be;
Let that grace now like a fetter bind my yielded heart to Thee.
Let me know thee in thy fulness, guide my by thy mighty hand
Till, transformed in Thine own image, I Thy presence I shall stand.

IMO, both stanzas would go nicely together. One states an almost universal condition, the other states an aspiration. Sure, there's a tension. That tension is, IMO, part and parcel of the Christian experience.

My theory is that the 'prone to wander....' language may be slightly more Classic Wesleyan and the first hymnal was put together when the AHM position was the only game in town.

But, again, I may be mistaken.

Don't know much about hymnology(is that a word?) but think your tension statement is pretty much right on.

[John Kennedy]

Don't know much about hymnology(is that a word?) but think your tension statement is pretty much right on.

Hymnology is, indeed, a word - it relates to the study of hymns. It is probably a word that will become increasing irrelevant to those churches who have decided they no longer need or want them.

[John Kennedy]

A lot of people think Benny Hinn is superhuman. So much that when he waves his coat everyone is slain in the spirit. I wondered is this really true or did he forget his deodorant. If his actions are real then "Lord forgive me." If they are not real then "Lord forgive him."

The thing I always wondered about Hinn was why he didn't just break down and go ahead and start wearing a clerical collar. He would wear these 'Mao' suit jackets and probably no one would've noticed the diff if he went ahead and put on a white collar.

[John Brickley]

This afternoon I visit one our church members and we end up talking about Adam and Eve. He told me that he believed that our 24 hour day system didn't start until Adam and Eve sin. He believe that Adam and Eve were spiritual being and when they sin. God put skin on them. (Gen:3:21) In other word they lost thier gloryfied body and became human. I have a feeling he is not the only who believe this.What is your oppinion on this.
Thank
Larry

Hopefully this will help get this thread back on track, but theologically there are a myriad of problems with this view, not the least of which is the implied notion that sin is humanizing. This is directly contrary to the declaration of scripture that we are made in the image of God. That it is from God that we derive our humanity and it is in Christ that true humanity is found. Sin is dehumanizing, coming to Christ is being restored to our true humanity. Sin is not the norm for humanity Christ is.

[Tami Martin]

Why do I know that verse then, John? Betcha it was in one of the older ones if it's not in the current one. I know that's one of the verses I heard long, long, loooooooong ago! ;)

Prone to wander, Lord I feel it,
Prone to leave the Lord I love.
la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
la, la, la, la, la ..... above.

(How's that for forgetting? Tho't I'd remembered tons of what I learned back then, but apparently some words have slipped my mind, after all.)

OK, found the missing words ....

Prone to wander, Lord I feel it,
Prone to leave the Lord I love.
Here's my heart, Lord, take and seal it,
Seal it for thy courts above.


This is verse 3 as I learned it initially...in a Baptist church. It was a small difficulty to re-learn that verse when we started attending a Nazarene church.

[Billie Goodson]

This afternoon I visit one our church members and we end up talking about Adam and Eve. He told me that he believed that our 24 hour day system didn't start until Adam and Eve sin. He believe that Adam and Eve were spiritual being and when they sin. God put skin on them. (Gen:3:21) In other word they lost thier gloryfied body and became human. I have a feeling he is not the only who believe this.What is your oppinion on this.
Thank
Larry

It would seem that the concept of a "solar" day would effectively have been instituted on day 4 with the creation of the sun. This section of Genesis 1 would seem to allude to that.


And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.". Genesis 1:14-15

This could only be a considered rebuttal IF you are holding to a literal 6-day creation story. I only hold to it if the other person in the discussion is violently opposed to it.

[Larry Parsons]

It's not what Scripture says. From the beginning of their creation the man and woman are referred to as adam (Gen 1:26), which is the generic Hebrew term for "human being." There is absolutely nothing in the biblical text about a "glorified body," and certainly nothing about them losing it because of sin. The creation of the "human" was already complete long before 3:21, since in 1:31 God pronounces all of creation "good" before he rests on the seventh day. There was not yet some part to be finished later.

Gen 3:21 is about clothing the naked couple with "garments," theologically a symbol for grace in the narrative just as "naked" was a symbol for shame/guilt. The Hebrew word used here translated "skin" occurs 99 times in the Old Testament. It normally refers to animal skins, leather, or hides (for example, Exod 36:19). In only a handful of references does it refer to human skin (Exod 34:29, 30, 34, Moses' face; passages in Lev referring, to skin diseases connected with "flesh" or "body," such as Lev 11:32, 13:2-59, Jere 13:23 referring to color; Ezek 37 referring to skin as part of the human body, Mic 3:3 comparing human skin to animals, etc.).

Gen 3:21 refers to "skins" as garments. Consistently throughout the Old Testament skins as garments refer to animal skins (2 Kings 1:8, Num 19:5, etc.), not to human skin. Nowhere in either Testament is there any reference to human skin being a garment. That is an idea developed from Greek philosophy, used by a group called Gnostics, a group which was generally rejected by the Church as heretical since skin/humanity understood as a garment had serious implications for the reality of the Incarnation (the heresy of docetism).

So, this notion is speculation that moves away from the biblical narrative.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.
Dennis,
I sent my friend your post and here was his reply.
Larry, I recede my earlier statements! I stand corrected. I guess I'm just always thinking.
Thanks
Larry.

[Billie Goodson]

Dennis,
I sent my friend your post and here was his reply.
Larry, I recede my earlier statements! I stand corrected. I guess I'm just always thinking.
Thanks
Larry.

Larry, thanks for posting this! Sometimes just a little learning can resolve the greatest of issues. And it is always interesting to get insight into what Dennis is thinking.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Thanks. I always appreciate someone who risks thinking and being wrong. That's far better than someone who is convinced they are right but will never think about anything enough to ever find out. Or those who will never think for fear that what they already believe may be wrong.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Gina Stevenson]

You didn't find it in a Nazarene Hymnal. The verse that appears in every Nazarene hymnal that I've ever seen says (if my memory is still working - I'm too lazy tonight to reach for a hymnal):

O to grace how great a debtor, daily I'm constrained to be;
Let that grace now like a fetter bind my yielded heart to Thee.
Let me know thee in thy fulness, guide my by thy mighty hand
Till, transformed in Thine own image, I Thy presence I shall stand.

IMO, both stanzas would go nicely together. One states an almost universal condition, the other states an aspiration. Sure, there's a tension. That tension is, IMO, part and parcel of the Christian experience.

My theory is that the 'prone to wander....' language may be slightly more Classic Wesleyan and the first hymnal was put together when the AHM position was the only game in town.

But, again, I may be mistaken.

Well, actually the "prone to wander" might not seem to quite fit with some who seem to have been suggesting in past decades that they were so "sinless" after being "petrified" -- er, I mean 'sanctified'" -- that they would not want to admit to actually feeling a bent towards "wandering" now and then. However, I know I heard it "eons" ago. Come to think of it, if it were not in the Naz hymnal even that's "ancient/antique-y," maybe I heard it from the C&MA hymnal? Hey! Think I know where my old Naz hymnal is ... I'll go look it up now! ;)

Uh-oh ... both the Naz & C&MA hymnals were in the cabinet right behind me. It wasn't the Naz hymnal I learned that "prone to wander" from, after all, it doth appear! It was the C&MA hymnal in which I found those lyrics. Hmmm .... ;)

[John Kennedy]

Gina -
The reason I was pretty sure you'd never find the offending 3rd stanza in a Nazarene hymnal was that it furnished sermonic material for more than one preacher I knew. Some of 'em could go on practically endlessly deriding the 'prone to wander' line. Then they could turn around andin practically the same breath start hammering at eternal security. Talk about cognitive dissonance.