Reggie Bush to give back Heisman

[Bob Hunter]

What do you all think of this? Giving back a Heisman trophy won 5 five years ago because of NCAA violations. Is it justified? Does it matter? Is the NCAA getting too picky? Or are NCAA players getting careless and money hungry?

Is USC's probation from playing in a bowl game justified based on their violations? Some say it is too harsh.

Keep in mind, the NCAA has turned into an organization of investigation. Or at least, it seems that way...

What do you think?

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/14/reggie-bush-to-forfeit-2005-heisman/?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

[Billie Goodson]

What do you all think of this? Giving back a Heisman trophy won 5 five years ago because of NCAA violations. Is it justified? Does it matter? Is the NCAA getting too picky? Or are NCAA players getting careless and money hungry?

Is USC's probation from playing in a bowl game justified based on their violations? Some say it is too harsh.

Keep in mind, the NCAA has turned into an organization of investigation. Or at least, it seems that way...

What do you think?

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/14/reggie-bush-to-forfeit-2005-heisman/?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

As I read this I understand that Bush is forfeiting the Heisman. It is nice to see someone display some integrity in their life, even though it is probably nine years too late. The NCAA is tasked with maintaining the integrity of the competitions which they oversee. The athletes and instituitions are well aware of the rules and penalties they face for violations. In my opinion, USC was let off easy on this case. They had major violations in two sports and obviously were confident that any penalty they would eventually face was worth the risk.

The discussion to pay collegiate athletes is simply ridiculous. It means that every family paying for a student is subsidizing the athletic program more than they already are.

[Benjamin Burch]

As I read this I understand that Bush is forfeiting the Heisman. It is nice to see someone display some integrity in their life, even though it is probably nine years too late. The NCAA is tasked with maintaining the integrity of the competitions which they oversee. The athletes and instituitions are well aware of the rules and penalties they face for violations. In my opinion, USC was let off easy on this case. They had major violations in two sports and obviously were confident that any penalty they would eventually face was worth the risk.

The discussion to pay collegiate athletes is simply ridiculous. It means that every family paying for a student is subsidizing the athletic program more than they already are.

I had the story wrong... :smilies1722:

[Steven Martinez]

I do not think the penalty is fair. Although the infractions were in two different sports, they were involved with only two players. Florida has had something like 20 football players charged in various criminal acts and yet they get off with nothing what so ever. I think a one year ban from post season play is fair but I think there are like 10 major programs that should be suspended as well. I would buy the sanctions for USC if they showed that other players were being paid but that is not the case. No other player in the Pete Carrol era has been implicated. Florida had a player who was paid $100,000 grand on the team last year. Where is their suspension? It makes you wonder if USC is being targeted because Pete Carrol was so against the grain of what the NCAA and the media look for in a major program coach. Heck Florida State had to vacate a whole season because they had 15 players cheat on exams. Where is their post season ban? I think the NCAA is essentially lazy and lets the media do all the work for them and then steps in and says "look at us, we really care about integrity."

Edited to add: By the way since Urban Meyer has been coach of Florida 27 players have been arrested. That is slightly more then 4 players a year.

[Steven Martinez]

FWIW the sad reality in the Reggie Bush case is that he was not paid but his parents were given a new home. Where was their integrity in this whole situation? The truth is no one really wants to know how these players do in school. When I was in high school I never got bullied by the football team because I helped several of them pass geometry when I was a freshman. I did not cheat for them or do their homework, but I helped them understand the concepts and when we had group work, we would partner up. I know for a fact that we would not have won the state championship without those guys who barely passed that class with help. I really wonder how much work Vince Young or other star NCAA players did in school.

[Billie Goodson]

FWIW the sad reality in the Reggie Bush case is that he was not paid but his parents were given a new home. Where was their integrity in this whole situation? The truth is no one really wants to know how these players do in school. When I was in high school I never got bullied by the football team because I helped several of them pass geometry when I was a freshman. I did not cheat for them or do their homework, but I helped them understand the concepts and when we had group work, we would partner up. I know for a fact that we would not have won the state championship without those guys who barely passed that class with help. I really wonder how much work Vince Young or other star NCAA players did in school.

So the implication is that they don't deserve the degrees that some of few of them earn? I don't understand what your point is Steve. For the stories of players who barely get by, there are far more college athletes that earn degrees and succeed in life. I realize people get blinded by the high profile athletes, but they are in fact the minority. When people paint Christians with such a broad brush, there is kicking and screaming that it is only a few. This seems to be a case of the same broad brushing going on.

Regarding the situation at other schools, so is the claim that USC is "better"? What should be noted as well, in many cases those schools reported the infractions "as soon as they were aware". This is not the case in how USC responded. If they had been proactive, perhaps their punishment would have been less.

Regarding the UF players being arrested, are they violating NCAA rules in those actions? I actually laugh at UF for all the arrests and love to pick on my friends, but there is a difference between the actions of individual players and the lack of institutional oversight that USC exercised. And we see how Pete Carroll ran his program, or should we say ran from his program. If you google USC player arrest, you get a few hits. Doesn't seem the program is all that squeaky clean.

Seriously, is this the best defense of the USC name that can be mustered?

[Bob Hunter]

FWIW the sad reality in the Reggie Bush case is that he was not paid but his parents were given a new home. Where was their integrity in this whole situation? The truth is no one really wants to know how these players do in school. When I was in high school I never got bullied by the football team because I helped several of them pass geometry when I was a freshman. I did not cheat for them or do their homework, but I helped them understand the concepts and when we had group work, we would partner up. I know for a fact that we would not have won the state championship without those guys who barely passed that class with help. I really wonder how much work Vince Young or other star NCAA players did in school.

Don't get me started on the quality of college education athletes receive. Even Tim Tebow got a very cheesy degree in Community Sports management. I think some of these low demand degrees are instituted for athletes. In some ways, you have to admire the Notre Dames for holding up the standards.

[Billie Goodson]

Don't get me started on the quality of college education athletes receive. Even Tim Tebow got a very cheesy degree in Community Sports management. I think some of these low demand degrees are instituted for athletes. In some ways, you have to admire the Notre Dames for holding up the standards.

I don't disagree with you Bob in many cases. It always amused me that the biggest major for Nebraska was "Undergraduate Studies." I always wondered if you could get a master in that.

[David Lyons]

It is my opinion that the NCAA should have a crackdown year in which they punish all the schools that are flagrantly breaking the rules. I could be wrong, but I think that might leave the Ivy League with the most BCS berths.

[Steven Martinez]

I am not saying that USC is better, I just do not think they are worse. You comments on Carrol seem to prove my point that people outside of USC simply do not like him and the program and therefore justify the sanctions. My point is simply that I do not think the NCAA really cares about what happens at these schools as long as they make their billions. The very fact that the college kids punished for Reggie Bush were in either High School or Junior High does not really seem fair to me. When Nick Sabin held a press conference and said that agents are pimps and there is nothing that can be done to keep them away from players everyone stood and applauded him. Yet Pete Carrol is supposed to be able to keep an agent away from Reggie Bush's parents? And yet Urban Meyer is responsible for 27 of his players being arrested?
The simple truth is that Miami proved in the 80s that the way to win is to bend or break the rules. Every National Championship program of the last 20 years has done this: Miami, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Florida State, VA Tech, USC, etc, etc. Why does one school get punished? Why does one school get banned for post season play while the others simply get to vacate wins or get a slap on the wrist? The truth is the major NCAA Division 1 sports is crooked and has been crooked. The NCAA really doesn't care. Everyone knew OJ Mayo was dirty. Everyone. Why didn't the NCAA step in right away? Why did they wait until he left? As Coach P tells us all the time, it is about the money and nothing else.
ESPN already released a story 3 months ago about Maurkice Pouncey receiving $100,000 by an agent before Florida's BCS game. At the same time it was relieved that the NCAA was investigating North Carolina and South Carolina for violations. I find it odd that the NCAA is essentially finished with their investigations into the Carolina schools and yet Florida has not even been mentioned so far this year. The NCAA banned USC from two post seasons for "lack of institutional control" not for simply a violation. I think having 27 players arrested and one taking money from an agent to be a lack of institutional control myself. I say this as a fan of Florida since the Spurrier era (I have the hat to prove it). So why does Rich Rodriguez and Pete Carrol get all the flack? Like I said before it is a media driven machine and Pete Carrol and Rich Rodriguez are/were the villains while Meyer and Sabin are the good guys. To me they are all crooked so if you are going to punish one then punish them all.

[Hal Paul]

I don't disagree with you Bob in many cases. It always amused me that the biggest major for Nebraska was "Undergraduate Studies." I always wondered if you could get a master in that.

I had a teacher in high school who probably go that degree. He played for UNL, graduated, got drafted by an NFL team (I don't remember which), got cut at training camp, then the best he could do is teach Driver's Ed (curriculum already provided by the state DoT) and was assistant defensive line coach.

[Ryan Scott]

I don't understand why he's giving it back. His parents' house had no bearing on his play on the field - that's what the trophy is for. It's not like the Heisman is a bastion of integrity anyway - it rarely goes to the best player in college football anyway.

If I were Bush I'd tell them they can pry it from my cold dead hands.

[Billie Goodson]

I don't understand why he's giving it back. His parents' house had no bearing on his play on the field - that's what the trophy is for. It's not like the Heisman is a bastion of integrity anyway - it rarely goes to the best player in college football anyway.

If I were Bush I'd tell them they can pry it from my cold dead hands.

But the house made him ineligible. One has to be eligible to participate to win most of the time. Apparently he viewed it as a distraction and as bringing dishonor to the award he held in high respect, therefor he elected to forfeit the trophy. Maybe this just proves how stupid all NCAA players really are.

The message being sent is win at any cost. Chunk the rules, lets just all see who can cheat the most. Small wonder that many of these kids are so shocked when the world doesn't pamper them like sports does. The world is really unfair to them to laud over them for 22 years then tell them they have to earn what is next. Seems just kind of unfair. Maybe we should let them flow into politics naturally. Then they can do whatever they want and we could justify it as just being what it takes to win.

[Ryan Scott]

But the house made him ineligible. One has to be eligible to participate to win most of the time. Apparently he viewed it as a distraction and as bringing dishonor to the award he held in high respect, therefor he elected to forfeit the trophy. Maybe this just proves how stupid all NCAA players really are.

It's not like it affected his performance. Sure, the NCAA should absolutely care - take away the wins and the records and put USC on probation. But the NCAA doesn't give out the Heisman Trophy. They don't need to worry about his off-field activities. Shoot, they voted not to take OJ Simpson's trophy back. Surely the same logic needs to be applied here.

[Billie Goodson]

It's not like it affected his performance. Sure, the NCAA should absolutely care - take away the wins and the records and put USC on probation. But the NCAA doesn't give out the Heisman Trophy. They don't need to worry about his off-field activities. Shoot, they voted not to take OJ Simpson's trophy back. Surely the same logic needs to be applied here.

But the NCAA did not take his trophy back. He said he is forfeiting it. I assume it will revert to the Heisman trust from which it came. The Heisman and the NCAA are not linked.

Regarding OJ, he was eligible while he played, unless he murdered someone back then and buried the body. You are suggesting holding him to a standard that is not applicable. Heck, we gave Ray Lewis a free pass.... Why not OJ? OJ was not convicted of a crime -- until he assaulted the card guy. He played by the rules, even in the murder trial.

[Ryan Scott]

But the NCAA did not take his trophy back. He said he is forfeiting it. I assume it will revert to the Heisman trust from which it came. The Heisman and the NCAA are not linked.

Regarding OJ, he was eligible while he played, unless he murdered someone back then and buried the body. You are suggesting holding him to a standard that is not applicable. Heck, we gave Ray Lewis a free pass.... Why not OJ? OJ was not convicted of a crime -- until he assaulted the card guy. He played by the rules, even in the murder trial.

I know the NCAA and the Heisman are not linked. That's the point. Physically, Reggie Bush was no different than any other player. He didn't get busted for steroids or anything else that would give him an advantage. The Heisman is awarded for play on the field - the perks came off the field - it should be the concern of the NCAA and not the Heisman Trust.

OJ didn't get penalized for off-field issues, Bush shouldn't either.

I'm just saying, if I were him, there's no way they'd get my trophy, even if they asked for it back.

The whole thing is a bit silly - the Heisman's a faux award anyway. 50% of the time is just goes to the best player on the best team, whether they were the best football player or not. Vince Young should have had this trophy on his mantle all along.

[Billie Goodson]

I know the NCAA and the Heisman are not linked. That's the point. Physically, Reggie Bush was no different than any other player. He didn't get busted for steroids or anything else that would give him an advantage. The Heisman is awarded for play on the field - the perks came off the field - it should be the concern of the NCAA and not the Heisman Trust.

This statement from the Heisman Trust (http://www.heisman.com/trust/mission_statement.php) would differ with your opinion. I prefer to let them speak for their award.


The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity.



OJ didn't get penalized for off-field issues, Bush shouldn't either.

But nothing points to OJ having a lack of integrity during his college career. Bush was free to leave USC any time after his Freshman year if he needed the money. I have zero sympathy for the "they aren't getting paid so they are poor" line of reasoning for anyone past their freshman year. If they want the NFL bucks, bolt. Happens all the time in the NBA (although I think the quality NBA game speaks for itself).




I'm just saying, if I were him, there's no way they'd get my trophy, even if they asked for it back.

But if you were he, then you would not have won the award. Nothing said he had to give the award back, he chose to do it. Apparently he holds the Heisman Trust in greater respect than you do. I wouldn't give it back either personally. Then again, I tend to try to uphold the agreements I commit to. Each NCAA college player signs a statement reflecting the eligibility requirements. Obviously, such agreements are not held in high regard by some. Perhaps they should just throw those agreements away. They are really binding on the University in many points. Without them, the university would be free to yank every non-starter's scholarship so that they could go out and give it to someone more "deserving". If agreements mean nothing, lets just quit agreeing to them.



The whole thing is a bit silly - the Heisman's a faux award anyway. 50% of the time is just goes to the best player on the best team, whether they were the best football player or not. Vince Young should have had this trophy on his mantle all along.

Why Vince Young? Because he was the best player on the best team? How are you measuring "Best Team" anyway? Ingram/Alabama seems to be a clear example of the "50%" phenomenon, but really, has that been the majority of cases? I'm thinking when Tebow got his, they were not the best team. Neither was Bradford. if we go back to Leinart, you are correct. That is 2 out of last 6. If we go back to 2000, not another occurrence, you are now 2 out of 9. If we go back to 96, we experience the "50%" phenomenon again. But, now we are at 3 out of 14, still not 50% if I understand statistics.

[Ryan Scott]

I did check back on the list - it really was more of a problem for a decade around the turn of the century. You can make a solid argument for at least the last five or six guys. It's when you get back to Eric Crouch and Rashaan Salaam and Chris Weinke that it really become egregious.

By the way, I'm not defending Reggie Bush taking the money (albeit him being affiliated with USC does give me reason to blame the school a bit more than in another scenario). The NCAA absolutely should come down on it hard. I'm just saying that awards are given for on-field play. Once they're given, I suppose the Heisman Trust could release a statement regretting the award, but the trophy is given.

I just think this is blowing up way too much. I only mentioned Vince Young to show I'm not a Bush apologist. Maybe I got my facts wrong, but the story I heard this morning was that the Heisman Trust was voting today and Reggie had been informed that they were likely to vote to ask for the trophy back so he jumped the decision to save face.

If he gave it back our of guilt and remorse, good for him.

[Billie Goodson]

I did check back on the list - it really was more of a problem for a decade around the turn of the century. You can make a solid argument for at least the last five or six guys. It's when you get back to Eric Crouch and Rashaan Salaam and Chris Weinke that it really become egregious.

By the way, I'm not defending Reggie Bush taking the money (albeit him being affiliated with USC does give me reason to blame the school a bit more than in another scenario). The NCAA absolutely should come down on it hard. I'm just saying that awards are given for on-field play. Once they're given, I suppose the Heisman Trust could release a statement regretting the award, but the trophy is given.

I just think this is blowing up way too much. I only mentioned Vince Young to show I'm not a Bush apologist. Maybe I got my facts wrong, but the story I heard this morning was that the Heisman Trust was voting today and Reggie had been informed that they were likely to vote to ask for the trophy back so he jumped the decision to save face.

If he gave it back our of guilt and remorse, good for him.

I think what hurt Reggie is that it was a house involved. It would seem that the USC recruiting staff new where he lived and had some idea of the financial position of his family. Then all of a sudden they move to a real upscale neighborhood. Kind of like the Aldrich Ames case, there should have been some alarms going off. No, I don't expect coaches to know where all of the players live, but for the big stars that they visited and spent time in recruiting...yes, at least to some degree.

Last year, there was some comments made in the local paper of one of the UA players. Some posters in a forum wanted to take up a collection to send the player's family to the BCS game. The family is not that financially gifted. Right after the first posts about the fund raising, there were some posts that jumped in that said this was a clear violation of the rules regarding player benefits. I offer that because there are people that know and see.

The housing really is a little harder to hide. When it comes to players taking money, that is a little more difficult to identify. I know, most of these guys are complete idiot and we know they flash those big wads of cash in front of the coach so it should be obvious, but sometimes they do act a little smarter. What I think really drove USC in front of the bus was that two players, both high profile were investigated, and it did not appear that the university was taking any action on their own.

Something that is interesting in all of this. Many regard the punishment of USC as harsh. When USC was made aware of the Mayo situation, what was their reaction? For an indication of the answer see this report (http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5234097). Here is the interesting thing in that article:

USC already admitted wrongdoing with the basketball program and sanctioned itself, including a ban on postseason participation, a reduction of scholarships and vacating all of its wins from 2007-08.

So, when evidence of wrongdoing was discovered, USC took upon themselves to ban themselves from postseason play (same penalty by NCAA for football), reduced scholarships (again same penalty by NCAA for football), and finally to vacate wins from the seasons the player participated (yep, you guessed it, same as the NCAA handed down in football). I am struggling to see how people can say that the punishment against the football program was harsh, when it really simply followed what USC had already established as warranted. In addition, there was the nagging little fact that USC was a repeat offender since they were within 5 years of having previously been found to be in violation of the rules.

[Steven Martinez]

So, when evidence of wrongdoing was discovered, USC took upon themselves to ban themselves from postseason play (same penalty by NCAA for football), reduced scholarships (again same penalty by NCAA for football), and finally to vacate wins from the seasons the player participated (yep, you guessed it, same as the NCAA handed down in football). I am struggling to see how people can say that the punishment against the football program was harsh, when it really simply followed what USC had already established as warranted. In addition, there was the nagging little fact that USC was a repeat offender since they were within 5 years of having previously been found to be in violation of the rules.
I think USC should serve a one year post season ban. I think two years is harsh. That is my entire point. Two years is one too many and I think the NCAA will in fact lower to a one year ban.

[Billie Goodson]

Apparently, the 2005 Heisman Trophy will be left vacated according to this report (http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5576729&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines).

This statement was also in the text that I found interesting.

One of the few guidelines given to Heisman Trophy voters is that a player must be in compliance with NCAA rules to be eligible for the trophy.

[Billie Goodson]

Don't get me started on the quality of college education athletes receive. Even Tim Tebow got a very cheesy degree in Community Sports management. I think some of these low demand degrees are instituted for athletes. In some ways, you have to admire the Notre Dames for holding up the standards.

According to the Tebow family site, Tim's degree was in "Family, Youth, and Community Sciences". Not sure of the demand for the degree, but they have a pretty good web pag (http://fycs.ifas.ufl.edu/)e.

[Jim Poteet]

It's not like it affected his performance. Sure, the NCAA should absolutely care - take away the wins and the records and put USC on probation. But the NCAA doesn't give out the Heisman Trophy. They don't need to worry about his off-field activities. Shoot, they voted not to take OJ Simpson's trophy back. Surely the same logic needs to be applied here.

I don't think the same logic applies to Reggie Bush and OJ Simpson. Simpson was eligible when he played at USC. He did nothing to disgrace the Heisman when he was a player. Reggie Bush was not eligible to play therefore he was not eligible to receive the Heisman. The Heisman Foundation has a rule that a player must be eligible to win the trophy. Ineligibility means no trophy.

I personally believe that there are several players who probably should have their Heisman vacated -Reggie Bush, OJ Simpson, Billy Sims, Billy Cannon, Paul Hornung - All have done things which are an embarrassment to the other Heisman winners and the Heisman Foundation.

[Bob Hunter]

Billie,

Okay, we're splitting hairs my friend. I think you get my point. These degrees do not involve the academic rigor of most.

[Ryan Scott]

What did Reggie Bush do to disgrace the Heisman? He got his parents a house. Yeah, it's against the NCAA rules, but it really just sheds light on the falsity of the line drawn. USC will gladly take the penalties now because they've made their money on the players - and a lot more money than they're going to lose with sanctions.

I fully understand that it's bad news for the players to be bought by schools - pitting these football crazed institutions against each other for the best athletes - that's not in anyone's best interest. But all these rules do is exempt the students from this process - money is still spent to entice them in legal ways - overpaying for coaches, facilities, uniforms, branding, public image, etc.

When we say we don't want these kids corrupted by perks and competition is just hypocritical.

Now I'm not asking that college players get paid. I believe a quality education (something that many athletes, even at the best schools, often miss out on) is more than adequate compensation for playing sports. It just seems awfully hypocritical that its not ok for a player to take a house for his parents, but it's fine for him to attend a major university for five years and never take anything above a 200 level class.

The rules don't benefit the students, at least in big-time sports at big-time schools, so I see less reason to hold a student responsible. It's just ludicrous to defend the integrity of a system that allows an anything goes attitude in every aspect of the sport except those involving cash/gifts for students.

I'm not defending any of it; I just wish it wasn't such a hypocritical system.

[Jim Poteet]

Now I'm not asking that college players get paid. I believe a quality education (something that many athletes, even at the best schools, often miss out on) is more than adequate compensation for playing sports. It just seems awfully hypocritical that its not ok for a player to take a house for his parents, but it's fine for him to attend a major university for five years and never take anything above a 200 level class.

An athlete is not going to spend five years at a major university and never take anything above a 200 level class. An athlete must be making normal progress toward a degree. Eligibility certification must be filed on every athlete every year and if he or she is not making normal progress (five years) toward a degree, that athlete is declared ineligible. This does not mean that there are not some weak majors in the curriculum (urban studies, liberal studies, urban housing). You sometimes make statements that are not quite correct. These statements tend to give the impression that athletes are not smart and are not interested in an education. Some athletes take advantage of the situation, but in most cases, you have serious students who also happen to be elite athletes.

[Ryan Scott]

An athlete is not going to spend five years at a major university and never take anything above a 200 level class. An athlete must be making normal progress toward a degree. Eligibility certification must be filed on every athlete every year and if he or she is not making normal progress (five years) toward a degree, that athlete is declared ineligible. This does not mean that there are not some weak majors in the curriculum (urban studies, liberal studies, urban housing). You sometimes make statements that are not quite correct. These statements tend to give the impression that athletes are not smart and are not interested in an education. Some athletes take advantage of the situation, but in most cases, you have serious students who also happen to be elite athletes.

This is exactly what happened at Georgia a few years back with almost no consequences. I was simply using it as an example of how we're jumping all over a player when, I believe, the schools have more responsibility and need more accountability in situations such as these.