How did your retirement fund do in 2005?

[Dave McClung]

Well, based on stock market results, 2005 went out with a whimper. For the year, all of the major stock market indexes had losses: Morningstar = -0.48%, Dow =- -0.62%, S&P 500 = -0.49%, Nasdaq = -.058%.

If you invested strictly in interest bearing CD's, you might have done a little better. Certificates of Deposit were earning close to 4% -- barely enough to beat the rate of inflation.

If one listens to the commentators on the radio or tv, one would conclude that anyone who just broke even for 2005 did pretty good. Not so. 2005 was a year when a person who was paying attention to their retirement funds ("actively managing") could do fairly well. On our Individual Retirement Account, with no new money added, Linda and I earned 10.3% for the year.

It isn't appropriate for me to give specific investment advice in a forum like this, but I am willing to share because of my concern that so many Nazarene clergy are not actively managing their retirement funds. Learning just the basics of investing can make a real difference.

What is "active management" of your retirement fund? Well, it certainly isn't the same as "playing the market." I don't think anyone should engage in day trading or timing the market with their retirement funds. "Active Management" simply means that one exercises judgment in their investments. For example, it didn't take a genius to decide that 2005 was a good year to own some oil stocks. Early in the year, I bought some shares in Vanguard Energy Fund (VGENX). It returned 44.83% in 2005. With the war in Iraq and the budget deficits, it didn't take a lot of study to conclude that some of the investments should be outside the U.S. I bought some Harbor International (HAINX) which returned 21.35% for the year.

Now, let me add a caution. Don't invest in "last year's fund." Those of you who remember my post from this time last year will remember Royce Opportunity Fund, my favorite from last year. It earned only 4.76% this year. Active management doesn't mean buying the fund that has been doing well. It is paying attention to world events and rebalancing your investment portfolio to take advantage of changes.

Would it be helpful to have a discussion about investing for retirement? If you are interested, I am willing to share my own investment strategies:

1. Invest only in no load mutual funds.
2. Buy only funds that rate 4 or 5 stars in the morning star rating.
3. Consider (but don't be automatic) selling funds that drop to 3 star or below.
4. Invest only in funds with below average fees.
5. Invest in only funds with an "A" or "B" Stewardship Grade (Morningstar).
6. Keep the portfolio balanced in proportion to the total market (large cap vs small cap).
7. Keep the portfolio diversified.
8. Limit International Investment to 15%
9. Monitor daily, but make changes infrequently.

[Michael B. Ross]

Dave, I just checked my Nazarene Retirement Funds (Fidelity), and my return rate overall for 2005 was a +12.5%, with no money added.

Which reminds me (and I have told you this before), thanks for your part in the process that allowed Nazarene Pastors to manage their investment accounts. I think you were part of a team that helped to create that option, right? Well, I am still short of what I need, but I am much better off than I would have been had the fixed return been the only plan. Thanks.

Michael

Well, based on stock market results, 2005 went out with a whimper. For the year, all of the major stock market indexes had losses: Morningstar = -0.48%, Dow =- -0.62%, S&P 500 = -0.49%, Nasdaq = -.058%.

If you invested strictly in interest bearing CD's, you might have done a little better. Certificates of Deposit were earning close to 4% -- barely enough to beat the rate of inflation.

If one listens to the commentators on the radio or tv, one would conclude that anyone who just broke even for 2005 did pretty good. Not so. 2005 was a year when a person who was paying attention to their retirement funds ("actively managing") could do fairly well. On our Individual Retirement Account, with no new money added, Linda and I earned 10.3% for the year.

It isn't appropriate for me to give specific investment advice in a forum like this, but I am willing to share because of my concern that so many Nazarene clergy are not actively managing their retirement funds. Learning just the basics of investing can make a real difference.

What is "active management" of your retirement fund? Well, it certainly isn't the same as "playing the market." I don't think anyone should engage in day trading or timing the market with their retirement funds. "Active Management" simply means that one exercises judgment in their investments. For example, it didn't take a genius to decide that 2005 was a good year to own some oil stocks. Early in the year, I bought some shares in Vanguard Energy Fund (VGENX). It returned 44.83% in 2005. With the war in Iraq and the budget deficits, it didn't take a lot of study to conclude that some of the investments should be outside the U.S. I bought some Harbor International (HAINX) which returned 21.35% for the year.

Now, let me add a caution. Don't invest in "last year's fund." Those of you who remember my post from this time last year will remember Royce Opportunity Fund, my favorite from last year. It earned only 4.76% this year. Active management doesn't mean buying the fund that has been doing well. It is paying attention to world events and rebalancing your investment portfolio to take advantage of changes.

Would it be helpful to have a discussion about investing for retirement? If you are interested, I am willing to share my own investment strategies:

1. Invest only in no load mutual funds.
2. Buy only funds that rate 4 or 5 stars in the morning star rating.
3. Consider (but don't be automatic) selling funds that drop to 3 star or below.
4. Invest only in funds with below average fees.
5. Invest in only funds with an "A" or "B" Stewardship Grade (Morningstar).
6. Keep the portfolio balanced in proportion to the total market (large cap vs small cap).
7. Keep the portfolio diversified.
8. Limit International Investment to 15%
9. Monitor daily, but make changes infrequently.

[Dave McClung]

Thanks, Michael. Yes. I had a role in the change from using an Insurance Company to Fidelity. The change really came from my obsession about not paying too much fees.

I was not a member of the Pension Board or of the Commission that studied the Pension Program in the early 1980's, but was reelected to the board sometime around 1990. When I came back on the board, I began to ask questions about how much was being paid to the company that was administering the pension assets (Minnesota Mutual). They refused to answer my questions using ("ethical reasons") as an excuse. I didn't give up and eventually the Pension Board got the answers. Frankly, they were embarrasing. The amount of commissions and fees involved were excessive.

I was appointed to the committee that researched the options and came up with the current plan.

I feel good about the options, and congratulations on the 12.5% return. That shows that you are doing a good job of active management.

[Joel Merrill]

The company I work for tries to put 15% of their profit into "Profit Sharing", our 401K. This year they didn't quite make 15% but it was 14 point something. We can't choose individual stocks but we have a good variety of types funds to invest in. We are given information like the risk and track record of each fund. Most people like to choose their own mix of funds. Some people get too worried about it and are always messing with it and moving their money around. I am a complete idiot when it comes to investing. They have what is called an advice fund. It is managed by Citistreet. They ask me questions like my age, when I plan on retiring, how much I would like to have to live on annually after I retire (duh) and how much risk I am willing to take. Then they choose the mix of funds for me. Right now I have 13% in bonds, 29% in balanced funds (mid cap growth funds) and 58% in Equity Index Funds. According to them I am taking a little more risk than the average person my age. (I am 51) I haven't got my end of the year report yet but as of the end of September my personal performance was 4.70% which is nothing to brag about.

Joel :gen01

[Dave McClung]

Joel

It sounds like your company has a good plan.

If you were at 4.7% as of September, you should be ok for the whole year.

Dave

[Lee Branum]

I don't want to be too agressive in my fund picks for my IRA and Roth IRA. I was a little less than five per cent. I use Vanguard too Dave. My wife is beating me handily on her 401k. Maybe I'll move some next year early... some are thinking the market will go up, some are thinking we are headed for a recession... here we go again!

[Jim Franklin]

It is nice to be aquainted with you folks but I have no idea what you are talking about so I guess that catagorizes this old geezer as being one of the non-participants. I have always lived pay check to pay check without any discretionary funds. I learned all I know about money matters from growing up in a Nazarene parsonage.

[Ian Gentles]

Dave, our retirement fund is being cancelled this spring, with mission still looking for a better group option. I must admit that I find this worrying.

[Gina Stevenson]

Dave, you mentioned "no load" funds. What -- tho' I've nothing to invest [someday that would be nice] -- is "NO LOAD" ... ??

'Been trying to read your investment advice, in spite of having nothing at the moment with which to do that, so that just in case I ever do have enough to do that, I'll have a bit of knowledge "under my belt" by then with which to function in such matters.

Thanks.

[Dave McClung]

Dave, our retirement fund is being cancelled this spring, with mission still looking for a better group option. I must admit that I find this worrying.

It is happening everywhere. Organizations are finding that they can't afford to pay for "traditional" pension plans. Hopefully, they will come up with some sort of a "defined contribution" plan that will allow you to save for retirement.

What most organizations are doing when they cancel their pension plan is give the employees the amount of money they have previously put into the plan. There are advantages and disadvantages to that kind of plan. When you know more about what they are going to do, I will be pleased to discuss it with you.

[Dave McClung]

Dave, you mentioned "no load" funds. What -- tho' I've nothing to invest [someday that would be nice] -- is "NO LOAD" ... ??



I apologize, Gina. One of the things that makes it so hard for a person be become self-educated in investing is that the industry uses so many terms that have special meanings. One can never figure them out without asking. I should have defined the term.

"Load" mutual funds are mutual funds which pay a commission to a broker at the time of the initial investment. In most cases, the up front commission is 5%, so that for every $1 invested, only 95 cents goes into the account. The commission is to pay for the professional advice of the broker.

A "No Load" mutual fund is one that does not pay a commission to a broker. The mutual fund company sells shares in the mutual fund directly to the investor. If the investor goes through a broker or a retirement account, the broker charges the investor a fee for the transaction, but does not get payment from the mutual fund company.

Just as a matter of investment philosophy, I do everything pratical to avoid commissions, fees and costs of investing. Every dollar I save has the same impact on my retirement as a dollar earned. That is why I invest in only "no load" funds.

[Joel Merrill]

Joel

It sounds like your company has a good plan.

If you were at 4.7% as of September, you should be ok for the whole year.

Dave
My biggest problem is that I haven't invested wisely in the past. Laws change and the company is always trying to improve our plan. When I started it wasn't as good. When I started working there we had to wait 3 years before we were eligible for profit sharing. So the first year I was in profit sharing was in 1980. At the time we had 3 options, U.S. government securities, a guaranteed interest fund that was around 3% if I remember right and the stock market. I put what little I had in the stock market and it went down the toilet. That scared me and I invested way too conservatively for years after that and mostly just kept up with inflation.

We also used to be able to take 45% of our contribution out every year. Of course Uncle Sam took half of that but I had a young family and I thought we needed it. So the years when I should have been the most aggressive and try to build it were the years I was trying to play it safe. Now I am 15 years from retirement and I don't have as much in as I should have by now but I think I will be ok.

A few years ago the company was reviewing the company retirement plan. I went right up to the office of the man in charge of it and asked him to do away with that option to take out 45% for the peoples own good. I don't know if he did it entirely because of me but he eliminated that option.

Joel

[Joel Merrill]

I wish they would teach this type of thing in high school. I know they couldn't go into a lot of detail but if we could have learned how the stock market works and the basic terms it would help.

I thought about inventing a game similar to Monopoly or Life but about the stock market to teach people about it. There could be several levels of the game for different age groups and by their knowledge level.

I know that laws are always changing and a game like that could get out of date pretty fast but it would sure be nice.

Joel

[Dave McClung]

I wish they would teach this type of thing in high school. I know they couldn't go into a lot of detail but if we could have learned how the stock market works and the basic terms it would help.

Joel

They do try to teach the basics of investing in high school, but very few young people have the wisdom or the discipline to save for retirement.

If we could teach one principle in high school, society would be a lot better off. That one principle is: "Always spend a little less than you make." A person who learns that when they are young, won't have a problem at retirement time.

Dave

[Gina Stevenson]

... make sense when explained. While understanding what "commission" is, just had never referred to it as a "load." But I guess that if someone takes a bunch of one's $$ upfront consistently, they do end up with quite a "load," eh? ;)

I apologize, Gina. One of the things that makes it so hard for a person be become self-educated in investing is that the industry uses so many terms that have special meanings. One can never figure them out without asking. I should have defined the term.

"Load" mutual funds are mutual funds which pay a commission to a broker at the time of the initial investment. In most cases, the up front commission is 5%, so that for every $1 invested, only 95 cents goes into the account. The commission is to pay for the professional advice of the broker.

A "No Load" mutual fund is one that does not pay a commission to a broker. The mutual fund company sells shares in the mutual fund directly to the investor. If the investor goes through a broker or a retirement account, the broker charges the investor a fee for the transaction, but does not get payment from the mutual fund company.

Just as a matter of investment philosophy, I do everything pratical to avoid commissions, fees and costs of investing. Every dollar I save has the same impact on my retirement as a dollar earned. That is why I invest in only "no load" funds.

[Ian Gentles]

It is happening everywhere. Organizations are finding that they can't afford to pay for "traditional" pension plans. Hopefully, they will come up with some sort of a "defined contribution" plan that will allow you to save for retirement.

What most organizations are doing when they cancel their pension plan is give the employees the amount of money they have previously put into the plan. There are advantages and disadvantages to that kind of plan. When you know more about what they are going to do, I will be pleased to discuss it with you.

Many thanks Dave I will let you know. We dont expect any further news before March.

[Pete Vecchi]

I'm simply frustrated with this stuff. I am not a financial genius. I tried about a year ago to make some changes in my Nazarene retirement account, and I did. But it has been a pain trying to understand this stuff. I can't figure out how to see on the Fidelity sign-in page how to see what my YTD returns were. The only things I can pull up off of the Fidelity website were statements ending at the end of October and the end of November. For November, my return was 4.4%.

When I tried to set up and change this stuff about a year or so ago, I had a difficult time trying to make the change through the website, but I finally figured it out. Sometime after that they changed the website navigation, and I have had only frustration in trying to make any changes.

I seem to not understand some things. One time I wanted to make a change, and couldn't to it on the internet, so I had to do it on the phone. I was told that the fund I saw on the Fidelity site that I wanted to invest in wasn't allowed to be invested in by the Nazarene fund.

The most recent time I thought I had figured out the navigation, when I tried to make a change, I got a message that the service was unavailable.

I don't know how go about investing. I've had some thoughts on it that, had I been able to invest, I would have come out well. I had a specific oil company I wanted to invest in about a year ago (I didn't care if it was in the Nazarene retirement system or something else--I just wanted to invest in it). Had I done so at that time, and then sold it at the end of the year, I would have realized a 40-50% increase in the investment. But I didn't know how to go about investing.

What I have considered at times is hiring a financial manager. The problems here are finding someone who is willing to do it, who is qualified and whom I trust implicitly.

Bottom line is this: For 2005 I let my retirement fund sit as it was, with contributions being made by the church and denomination. Finally in about October, I was able to start matching the church's per month contribution.

I really would like to do a better job of investing, but I just don't know how to go about doing it.

[Wesley Smith]

Dave,

I have had funds in the past with Strong Funds. You may know that that fund was purchased by Wells Fargo. Not exactly purchased. There was some criminal stuff going on with Strongs. Anyway, with the Wells Fargo accounts, I've had an approximate gain of 8.64% this past year. Am getting ready to close my accounts with them and put all my retirement funds with Fidelity.

Adding my thanks to you for your good input on our (ministerial) retirement situation.

Actually, the thing that is looking the best for us at this point is the way our equity in our home has increased over the years. We first built in about 1988. Built another home in '90. Did nicely on our home in Southern Cal. Hope and pray to have our home here free and clear by retirement time.

Friend,

Wes

[Hans Deventer]

I'm so glad I don't have to worry about this question. I've done something stock related only once, and that was one time too many. My employer and me pay the money, the pensionfund guarantees me the pension. What happens in between is not of my concern, praise God.

[Dave McClung]

What I have considered at times is hiring a financial manager. The problems here are finding someone who is willing to do it, who is qualified and whom I trust implicitly.



Hiring a good financial manager is difficult. I want any financial manager I hire to know more about investing than I do and to have demonstrated that knowledge in his or her personal finances. Unfortunately, that kind of person doesn't need to work any more, so he or she probably retired early.

A few years ago, my bank convinced me that offering financial planning to my comapny's senior employees would be a good perk. Some of these employees have significant income from bonuses and have no investment training. I told the bank that I would use the service first. If I found it to be helpful, then I would offer it to the Vice Presidents. Several months into the process, I had gotten to know the "Certified Financial Planner" well enough to share personal stories. I learned that he was a CFP because he had failed in business. He was dead broke and lived from pay check to pay check. I terminated the project. Why would I want someone advising me about how to invest that has not done so successfully?

That is why I see value in having this kind of discussion on NazNet. We can learn from those who have actually done it. And, the price is right.

[David R. Felter]

I have to say that mine did extremely well this year. The 401K was up markedly. A lot of that is due to our company's stock performance.

At the beginning of 2005 the price per share was in the $50 range. Today it is $90. On December 14 we announced a 2 for 1 split. Shareholders of the stock as of Dec. 30 were elegible and the split will be done on Jan. 9. This will affect my 401K (we receive shares as part of the matching program) plus all of the stock options that I have received (and held) over the last 10 years plus all of the stock shares that I have purchased over the last 10 years. I just hope that it begins climbing back towards the $90 mark again on January 10th! :basic01

[Dave McClung]

At the beginning of 2005 the price per share was in the $50 range. :basic01

Wow!! You have reason to smile. According to my quick calculation, that is 80% growth!!! A few years of that and you will retire well.

Dave

[Dave McClung]

There are only a couple of times like this in any year. Those who were out of the market during the first two trading days of 2006 will have a hard time catching up. My portfolio is up 2% in the first two days. Unbelievable!!

[Marg Webb]

Recall Mr Franklin. "Our Father ownes cattle on a thousand hills". Hang in there we are right with you and doing great.

[Houston Thomas]

Dave,

I would appreciate your advice. I'm fairly young (26) and a Nazarene Minister. I currently participate in the Nazarene Retirement Plan (though Fidelity) because my employer contributes some. I have enjoyed the Fidelity program but have found the number of funds availible for contribution to be a little limiting. I'm thinking about opening up a roth IRA. Any suggestions on companies to go through. I would like to be diversified so I don't think Fidelity is where I want to be.

Houston

[Dave McClung]

[quote=Houston Thomas

I would like to be diversified so I don't think Fidelity is where I want to be.

Houston[/quote]

Houston

I agree that being diversified is important, but it isn't a reason to avoid Fidelity. Fidelity offers as much choice in funds as anyone.

I don't think I should advise of a specific fund, but I will share how I have made the choice.

1. I use a firm that allows me to choose from a wide variety of investments.
2. I use a firm that allows me to manage my account on line. That is true of most, but wasn't when I made my choice 20 years ago.

3. I use a firm that does not charge me an annual fee.

4. I use a firm that has low commissions when I make changes.

The firms I use:

For my IRA: www.etrade.com (http://www.etrade.com). I placed my IRA with PCFinancial more than 20 years ago. It has merged four times since then with the latest being etrade. I have been pleased with the investment options, the service, and the low fees.

For my 403b: WWW.TIAA-CREF.org (http://www.TIAA-CREF.org) TIAA-CREF is the favorite of most educational institutions. I use them because that is where the ENC retirement fund is, but do not recommend them. I don't like the new CEO because he is trying to make TIAA-CREF change from the lowest fee structure to one that is more like Merrill Lynch.

For my 401K: WWW.401k.Com (http://www.401k.Com) (Fidelity). I am very impressed by Fidelity. They seem to always be on the cutting edge with technology. I invest in a number of their mutual funds and they have done well over time.

I don't currently have an account with www.vanguard.com (http://www.vanguard.com) but I do invest in a number of their funds. They specialize in having low fees.

I also have an account with http://www.usaa.com; however, I don't think it is avialable to you. USAA is a firm that is organized to support those in the military services. I have been using them for my insurance since I was in the service and for my banking for quite a few years.

I hope this helps with suggestions about where you should look. You didn't ask about being diversified, but I will share anyway. For most people, the best way to be diversified is through one or more good mutual funds. Very few pastors have the time that it takes to invest successfully in individual stocks. My advice is for young pastors to pick two or three mutual funds. As the retirement account grows, don't let too much accumulate in any one fund ($25,000 is a reasonalbe level). It is good to start with an index fund (low fees and wide diversification) then add specialty funds as the total account grows.

My own view differs from most "professionals" in the use of bonds. I don't invest in bonds and don't think they are necessary for the average investor. Over the past five years, those with bonds have done better than those with 100% stocks (because of 2002), but any other period of time in my life, bonds have been a drag on a portfolio. I keep my retirement fund entirely in no load mutual funds.

Dave

[Houston Thomas]

Dave,

Great advice. Thanks!

One more thing, what do you think of Fidelity's autopilot feature where you can select a single fund (i.e. Fidelity 2040 - 2040 being the year you are to retire) and let Fidelity do the rest of the work.

Houston

[Dave McClung]

Dave,

Great advice. Thanks!

One more thing, what do you think of Fidelity's autopilot feature where you can select a single fund (i.e. Fidelity 2040 - 2040 being the year you are to retire) and let Fidelity do the rest of the work.

Houston

The "Fidelity Freedom Funds" are great choices for people who are unwilling or unable to make investment choices for themselves. Fidelity was the first to come up with the concept. The idea is that the investor will invest in only one diversified fund. Fidelity will manage the fund to be fairly aggressive with the investor is young and more conservative when the ivnestor is closer to retirement. All the investor has to do is decide the year in which they intend to retire.

If a person wants to be more aggressive, they just select a later retirement date.

When compared to the other options available at the time, the Freedom Funds were great choices for the Nazarene minister's retirement plan. At that time, more than 60% of Nazarene Clergy were selecting the "Fixed Income" option. Since the Freedom Fund option was included, all be a few ministers now have some participation in the equities market.

For my own taste, the Freedom Funds are a bit on the conservative side (too much in bonds), but for those who previously invested only in bonds, it is a great step forward.

There are some disadvantages:

1. Fees are slightly higher than some other options.

2. The Freedom Funds are not free of "sin stocks." For those who want to make sure that they don't own any alcohol, tobacco or gambling stocks, the Freedom Funds are not acceptable. The percentage of such stocks is very low, but there is a possibility of ownership of such stocks.

All in all the Freedom Funds provide a good option.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]6. Keep the portfolio balanced in proportion to the total market (large cap vs small cap).


Dave,

About what would that proportion be?

Wilson

[Dave McClung]

Dave,

About what would that proportion be?

Wilson


This is my diversification. I may be a little lite on small caps, but my interest in Triton Marine Construction (a privately held small company) is not included in this analysis.:

Value Core Growth

19% 18% 17% Large Cap

12% 11% 11% Mid Cap

4 % 4 % 4% Small Cap

As you can see, my portfolio has gotten a little heavy on Value vs Growth. I don't worry about small imbalances, but will bring it back in balance the next time I make adjustments. My next investment will be large cap growth.

Dave

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Value Core Growth


Is "Core" on your chart the same as "Blend" on the Fidelity's site's Style Maps?

Wilson

[Dave McClung]

Is "Core" on your chart the same as "Blend" on the Fidelity's site's Style Maps?

Wilson

I think so. Personally, I like Morningstar's nomenclature better. "Blend" implies that the category has some "Value" and some "Growth." "Core" implies that the investments in that category really aren't either "Value" or "Growth." Although the titles have slightly different meanings, either Fidelity or Morningstar would put the came companies in that category.

Although all of the invetment sites I use offer statistical information about the various mutual funds, I have learned to use the Morningstar Format, so I use Morningstar for all of my investments.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Dave,

In the "sector" markets what is the difference between utilities and energy?

Wilson

[Dave McClung]

Dave,

In the "sector" markets what is the difference between utilities and energy?

Wilson

As I understand it, "Utilities" are companies that provide services in the regulated utilities markets (gas, water and electricity).

The "Energy" sector includes producers and refiners of oil, gas, coal, uranium, and oher froms of energy in unregulated markets.

Dave

[Joel Merrill]

I got my end of the year statement today. My personal investment performance was 7.60 % last year.

Joel

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Dave,

What did you think of the article on Morningstar, "Our Fidelity Wish List for 2006?"

(ALL my retirment money is in the Nazarene TSA plan at Fidelity--except some equity in my home.)

Wilson

[Marg Webb]

If others are reading this and feel so discouraged. Do not be. It is way over our heads. We have Whirlpool doing our business through the Credit Union. Have no idea what they are talking about, but the Lord knows and we seem to be ok.
Remember my dear friends, if you feel depressed about reading about this investment discussion, "Our Father owns cattle on a thousand hills:"!!!. He will shield us and carry us through.
At the most, usually, we are here about 80 years and after that all is blessedness and plenty.
We can make it until than.
I am not against all of this , it is just I wish I could help everyone that is scrubbin the bottom of the pot.
Just keeping sowing what we have.
Remember "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"!!!!!!!!! Whatever that means to other's it is still a promise from the Lord.
Also please know, I or we are not against this proceedure of trying to make your retirement grow.
We have a friend who was a Nazarene Pastor. Eighty two now. They are on Medicaid, food stamps and all of that.
Their children and others try to help.
I cannot imagine what their reward is.!! They seem content. She now has cancer, they still make it to church. What a testamony to others.
It just "ain't all gold".!!!

[Marg Webb]

Dave, just read your Profile.
This is great that you are here to help everyone. Praise the Lord. Keep it going.!!!

[Bruce Carriker]

I guess I'm the only one who's tired of seeing this tribute to greed keep returning to the top of the list.

[Gina Stevenson]

"tribute to greed?" Awww, Bruce ... some might invest for greed ... but then there are others who have been generous with their investments ... sometimes God lets folks have what He knows they can wisely invest, and help others (perhaps without so much financial "savvy" sometimes?) with that increase.

I guess I'm the only one who's tired of seeing this tribute to greed keep returning to the top of the list.

[Betty Bolerjack]

I guess I'm the only one who's tired of seeing this tribute to greed keep returning to the top of the list.

Planning for retirement is hardly a "tribute to greed"! I think it is good that Dave brought up the subject, first because we all need to be reminded of how important it is to plan for the future even though things may not turn out according to that plan, and secondly, because we can help each other with suggestions or just to gain a knowledge of what is out there to help with retirement planning.

As for us, we have a small amount in our TSA's, mostly invested in Fidelity, I think. I don't worry too much about it because it is such an insignificant amount at this time. Mark had an "income savings" plan a number of years ago that had accumulated quite a bit, but when he was laid off, we ended up having to use it to live on. I wish we had done things differently, but as they say, "Hindsight is 20/20."

Now that we are both in our fifties, we are finally getting serious about something to live on in our retirement years. We also would like to be able to pastor prior to retiring without having to be concerned with whether or not the church can pay us. Having pastored two churches where it came to a point that they could not pay our salary every week, it would be great to have that security. Yes, I know that "God provides" and I could tell you stories of how he has provided for us. However, God also provides for us at times by giving us a brain to use to set aside money for that proverbial "rainy day."

So, since we have such meager funds, what are we doing to reach our goal? We are investing in real estate! We are both Realtors now (Mark got his license a couple of months ago) and that puts us in a unique position to buy property. In fact, the company that we are associated with encourages us to invest in real property. The owner has even written a book titled, "The Millionaire Real Estate Investor" which outlines the principles that major investors use. I haven't read it all yet, but I have been to a seminar. In fact, was that just luck or God-ordained? You see, I really wanted to go, but didn't have the money. We had a drawing at our team meeting. We put our business cards into a container and our regional manager drew. She had two cards in her hand. I could see that one of them was mine and I just held my breath. Without looking, she dropped the other one back into the container. I won a free registration for the seminar. One of the best things that ever happened to me!

I got ideas at that seminar for ways to come up with the down payment that I had never thought of. At that point, I had a listing that was under contract. It was a small house in need of some work, but not unlivable. I also had a friend who was needing to move. We had been looking at homes for her to buy, but she was beginning to realize that, in her situation, this was just not the right time. She really needed to continue to rent, but she had to move. Yet, her situation dictated that she would not be able to rent from just anyone. I realized at the seminar that there was a way I could have bought that house using my commission as the down payment. When the contract busted a week or two later, I took my friend over to see it. She decided she wanted to rent it with an option to buy in about 3 years. I made my seller an offer. She came out with more money than I had originally estimated she would get. My friend did not end up on the streets. And Mark and I now have taken the first step toward investing for our and our daughter's future.

Now, I realize that there are a lot of people, including some in my office, that just don't want to deal with the hassle of being landlords. But, there are ways to reduce the hassle. We have taken measures to do that and it has been worth it. One of those ways was that we purchased a service agreement (or home warranty) on the house. When she moved in and discovered that the A/C wasn't working (it was when I made the offer), I called the warranty company. They have already sent someone out twice and they will likely be sending someone out again when the weather gets warm enough. Eventually, they may have to replace it. We'll see. It sure is a lot less hassle, though, to know that I have it covered if something goes wrong at any time of the day or night. In fact, I can even give my tenant the number to call and I don't even have to be bothered. That was another little tidbit that I learned in the seminar.

So, now we have a rental property that we purchased at a great price and that has already increased in value because of the work that we have done on it so far. We have a tenant who is making our payments for us, plus providing us with a little bit of a cushion to pay the deductible on the service agreement and renew it each year. There may even be enough to put a little bit aside. If and when we sell it to her, we will make a nice little profit as well. If we keep it, when we pay it off, it will provide us with passive income each month. I'd say that's a pretty good retirement plan, especially since we plan to do it several more times!

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I guess I'm the only one who's tired of seeing this tribute to greed keep returning to the top of the list.

I guess you're right, Bruce. We Christians shouldn't plan at all for our retirement. We should instead just assume that other Christians won't mind the burden of taking care of us. I should probably tell my church to stop sending the $100 every three months to my retirement plan. I should probably also ask that the Pensions and Benefits Office no longer contribute their $1,000 a year to my account either. After all, the $12,200 I have already greedily stored up (and earned in interest & dividend) in my 18 years of pastoring should be more than enough. Anything else would just be "building bigger barns." In fact, I should probably pull my money out and stick it in my mattress. To earn any additonal returns would just feed my greed and be downright wrong.

By the way, when I retire can move in with you?

Wilson

[Marg Webb]

Don't come our way Wilson, we have enough poor Pastor's that need help.:):)

[Joel Merrill]

I guess I'm the only one who's tired of seeing this tribute to greed keep returning to the top of the list.
Tribute to greed!? It's wise planning! If you absolutely must spend every dime you make to exist, then I'm sure the Lord will take care of you. In many cases, spending every dime you make as soon as you get it is greed. I'm doing without a few "things" now so that I will not have to live in poverty when I'm old. I am planning for the future. I'm definitely not going to be rich. I think it is greedy to depend on others when I get older if I don't have to. I don't want to be a burden when I'm old.

Joel

[Pete Vecchi]

I simply don't understand a lot about investing, but I try.

Every now and then I get the opportunity to get on the Fidelity website and look at my stuff. Ocassionally, I try to change some of my investments.

Unfortunately, this afternoon as I was trying to do some research and possibly re-investing, I got this message at the "Contributions" section of the Fidelity site:

Contributions

The automated system is unable to process your request at this time. Please try again later.

The last time I tried to work with these investmens (several weeks or months ago) I got the exact same message.

Is this normal?

Signed,

"Getrting Pretty Frustrated"

[Dave McClung]

The last time I tried to work with these investmens (several weeks or months ago) I got the exact same message.

Is this normal?

Signed,

"Getrting Pretty Frustrated"

It usually means that more people are attempting to access the system than the system can handle. Sometimes if you simply "refresh" you will get in. Other times you have to wait a minute or two. The only times I have not been able to get on the system are late evenings (pacific time). I suppose they do system maintenance in the middle of the night, Boston time.

Dave