mathēteusate (make disciples)

[Billy Cox]

Part of my faith journey at the moment is to gain a more three-dimensional understanding of what Matthew 28:19 means by 'make disciples'.

I did a Google search of the term and found the Greek word mathēteusate, which is commonly translated 'make disciples'. It seems that so much of evangelical praxis, including the Church of the Nazarene's mission statement, hinges on this one verse (!), so maybe it's worth a closer look. :)

In my Google search, almost every mention of that verse is either an apologetic for business-as-usual evangelism or a polemic against lazy Christians who aren't winning their neighborhood, family and friends to christianity.

I find the Great Commission interesting at many levels, not the least of which is that Jesus drops these so-called marching orders on the disciples and then leaves the scene with no further elaboration or instruction. Yes I understand that the Holy Spirit picked up where Jesus left off...


The main questions I am mulling over:

1. In 1st century Judaism, 'making disciples' was the work of a Rabbi, not a synagogue. (correct me if I'm wrong) In either case, what is the contemporary analogy to the rabbi-disciple relationship?

2. I have become increasingly uncomfortable with the idea that evangelism and discipleship are polar opposites between which we must find a via media, the perfect balance between making a decision and then living it out. Can a church truly do one and not do the other?

3. Is evangelism without discipleship truly evangelism or is it salesmanship?

4. Is discipleship without evangelism truly discipleship or is it a secret society?

[Billy Cox]

Part of my faith journey at the moment is to gain a more three-dimensional understanding of what Matthew 28:19 means by 'make disciples'.

I did a Google search of the term and found the Greek word mathēteusate, which is commonly translated 'make disciples'. It seems that so much of evangelical praxis, including the Church of the Nazarene's mission statement, hinges on this one verse (!), so maybe it's worth a closer look. :)

In my Google search, almost every mention of that verse is either an apologetic for business-as-usual evangelism or a polemic against lazy Christians who aren't winning their neighborhood, family and friends to christianity.

I find the Great Commission interesting at many levels, not the least of which is that Jesus drops these so-called marching orders on the disciples and then leaves the scene with no further elaboration or instruction. Yes I understand that the Holy Spirit picked up where Jesus left off...


The main questions I am mulling over:

1. In 1st century Judaism, 'making disciples' was the work of a Rabbi, not a synagogue. (correct me if I'm wrong) In either case, what is the contemporary analogy to the rabbi-disciple relationship?

2. I have become increasingly uncomfortable with the idea that evangelism and discipleship are polar opposites between which we must find a via media, the perfect balance between making a decision and then living it out. Can a church truly do one and not do the other?

3. Is evangelism without discipleship truly evangelism or is it salesmanship?

4. Is discipleship without evangelism truly discipleship or is it a secret society?

Are we really speechless? Has discipleship been thoroughly flogged in multiple threads on the Master Plan for Discipleship?

I offer four questions (see above) for discussion. I am especially interested in question #1.

[Mark Metcalfe]

The main questions I am mulling over:

1. In 1st century Judaism, 'making disciples' was the work of a Rabbi, not a synagogue. (correct me if I'm wrong) In either case, what is the contemporary analogy to the rabbi-disciple relationship?

2. I have become increasingly uncomfortable with the idea that evangelism and discipleship are polar opposites between which we must find a via media, the perfect balance between making a decision and then living it out. Can a church truly do one and not do the other?

3. Is evangelism without discipleship truly evangelism or is it salesmanship?

4. Is discipleship without evangelism truly discipleship or is it a secret society?

Interesting, Billy. I'll try to opine a little, but don't claim an answer in any of it. Maybe it will be grist for the mill.

I think the "go" part is the evangelism and the "make" part is the discipleship.

The admonition to "Go into all the world and make disciples" is interesting to me also because it sounds similar to the Breck commercial to "tell two friends, and they will tell two friends, and so on." Thus we will spread the good news.

So, what I think you're asking is whether making disciples is for the masses, or for developing new leaders (Rabbis). I think it is for the masses, and it may be linked to our "two works of grace." By this, I mean that we have dissected the new birth experience from the new life in Christ ("saved and sanctified", faith and works, evangelism and discipleship). In telling people that being saved is enough, it is like being born is enough to live. That begs the question "enough for what?" For most of us, I think the answer is that being saved is enough to begin our walk with the Lord.

I think some discipleship can be self-taught - reading the Scriptures, for example - but it is better with the cooperation of other people who have had experience, study, reason, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

First century discipleship, as I have been told, seemed akin to modern day mentorship, or directed study. But I think the church becomes involved in discipleship through community and corporate studies of theology. In community, evangelism can be part of the division of labor in the body, not needing to be simple salemanship. (See 2 Corinthians 2:14-17.)

Whether we, as individuals or as a body, do well to help babies become adults in Christ, I think, is something for us to consider in the Great Commission.

Mark

See also The Greatest Job in the World (http://russellmetcalfesermons.nazarene.nl/SermonTexts/dad.greatest_job)

[Thomas Oord]

Billy,

Thanks for this thread.

As a high schooler, I was really impressed by the Leadership Multiplication material put together by Hal Perkins and published by NPH. I studied the charts and kept the journal. Hal is still passionate about this form of discipleship making, and some still find it helpful. I, however, lost interest in it after a while.

In college, I was impressed and moved by the Master's Plan for Evangelism. This was followed by the Master's Plan for Discipleship, both books I believe were authored by a Coleman fellow. Do you know his first name? In any case, these books became a blueprint for me, and I formed a group of leaders, and these leaders formed their own groups.

Due to a number of circumstances, however, I grew disillusioned by the discipleship methods and stategies found in both books. I think most of my disillusionment came from the fact that I found myself overly concerned with particular methods and procedures. The extent to which Perkins and Coleman encouraged this overemphasis is not clear to me now, however.

At the risk of sounding like a one trick pony or oversimplifying, I now think first of Jesus words recorded in the Gospel of John whenever I hear someone talk about disciple making: "By this shall all people know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:35).

I realize that this emphasis upon love as evidence of discipleship will seem too loosey-goosey to some. It certainly doesn't suggest an obvious strategy or method. And I'm not against strategies and methods per se. But this verse helps me remember that love ought to remain the heart of any Christian discipleship endeavor.

Thanks again for the thread...

Tom

[Hans Deventer]

In college, I was impressed and moved by the Master's Plan for Evangelism. This was followed by the Master's Plan for Discipleship, both books I believe were authored by a Coleman fellow. Do you know his first name?

His name is Robert E. Coleman.

[Mark Metcalfe]

At the risk of sounding like a one trick pony or oversimplifying, I now think first of Jesus words recorded in the Gospel of John whenever I hear someone talk about disciple making: "By this shall all people know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:35).

Thank you, Thomas. This seems to be one of those "simple" verses that encompasses the essence of the issue, like the Greatest Commandment or Micah 6:8.

Mark

P.S. I often wondered that if every Christian "went" to make disciples, then who would plow the field if everyone converted and left the farm? In other words, "Go" to make disciples should also mean go to your own community.

[Billy Cox]

Thank you, Thomas. This seems to be one of those "simple" verses that encompasses the essence of the issue, like the Greatest Commandment or Micah 6:8.

Mark

P.S. I often wondered that if every Christian "went" to make disciples, then who would plow the field if everyone converted and left the farm? In other words, "Go" to make disciples should also mean go to your own community.

It seems that the 'Go' part is easy. Nobody lives in the church building 24/7 after all and very few people are completely cut off from their local community.

[Steven Martinez]

It seems that the 'Go' part is easy. Nobody lives in the church building 24/7 after all and very few people are completely cut off from their local community.

The point I would make on this is that while nobody lives in the building many people never leave the "church" in regards to having fellowship with those outside the Body. Many believers claim that they do not know an unbeliever. As far as community, there are many who never venture outside their local church community. For some, the "GO" is to cross the street or cubicle and yet many do not. The premise of "Go" is easy but many fail to ever do so.

[Crystal Lutton]

The main questions I am mulling over:

1. In 1st century Judaism, 'making disciples' was the work of a Rabbi, not a synagogue. (correct me if I'm wrong) In either case, what is the contemporary analogy to the rabbi-disciple relationship? Perhaps this is another issue of the Priesthood of Believers. What made someone a Rabbi who had Disciples (as opposed to a Rabbi who didn't travel and have them) is that onlookers wanted to emulate them. The more I've studied this idea from a Hebraic perspective the more I've realized that when we emulate the Lord and live with his character as he makes us new creations others will look and want to know what we have. How can we have peace in the storms? How can we not look at the gas prices today and just panic? At least in the US right now we are in a position to be a serious example of God's peace to those around us who are listening to the news and all the fearmongering going on.

Years ago I had a very good friend who went through a horrible breakup of a dysfunctional relationship at the same time that I did. I began returning to church and the Lord and she, not a Christian, turned more to the world. She thought our relationship would have to end because I was going to be another one of those people who shove Jesus down her throat but I didn't--I would share funny stories the pastor shared, and left the group every Saturday evening for the service time I usually attended, but I was in triage myself--who was I to try and get someone else saved? At the end of a year we were leaving where we were at the end of the night and she was drunk and I wasn't and someone asked where we were going the next morning--it was Sunday morning and I said I was going to church. She announced she was too. I didn't think she'd make it but she showed up at my apt 15 minutes early. Went to service with me and had a truly life altering encounter with the Lord.

We went out to lunch later and she shared that our lives were both devastated by what we went through but a year later she was in even greater devastation and I was in a much healthier and better place. She figured out it had to be something that she could only find at church so she wanted to go and know what it was! She sure found out :D

I think about how many believers came to the Lord by witnessing the peaceful way that the early Christians went to be martyred.

2. I have become increasingly uncomfortable with the idea that evangelism and discipleship are polar opposites between which we must find a via media, the perfect balance between making a decision and then living it out. Can a church truly do one and not do the other?I think that a church can evangelize without making disciples but I do not believe they can make disciples of Jesus without evangelizing (IOW, I believe discipleship comes first and when the opportunity presents you share your faith).

3. Is evangelism without discipleship truly evangelism or is it salesmanship?
I would say salesmanship--and not truly effective. What really concerns me is the number of people who teach "once saved, always saved" with the promise that if you said "the sinner's prayer" with that guy on a street corner then, regardless of the presence of absence of fruit, you are going to heaven. How many people said it and it was meant and evidence of the Lord is abundant? VS those who said it because the person scared them or they were embarrassed not to, etc. And then are told they are for sure saved. Scary.

4. Is discipleship without evangelism truly discipleship or is it a secret society?I would say secret society.

One thing that struck me years ago (because I felt guilty not being able to go up to strangers and share my faith--my husband can do it and he has the gift of evangelism--it's truly amazing) was that we are called to be witnesses. I have a background as a paralegal and studying law and witnesses are able to testify to what they have seen and experienced. They can testify to what they have first hand knowledge.

I really think that when someone has a gift and they get well-known for it they usually write a book and tell everyone, "If you would just do what I do 8 hours a day you would have a fulfilled Christian walk!" Sometimes it's prayer, sometimes it's Bible study, sometimes it's evangelism, etc . . . eventually we have 84 hour days where we are expected to do very large chunks of things which may or may not be our gifting! As I mentioned, my husband has the gift of evangelism. He has overheard two young teachers at the school where he works talking about what they will do that weekend and when one comments that nothing has meaning anymore he can comment from the sidelines, "That's because you don't have Jesus in your life." 15 minutes later the woman is crying on her knees surrendering her life to her Savior. Life for most of us isn't a Chick tract ;)

I think some evangelists wrote some books and preached some messages that somehow convinced all of Christendom (or at least a large part) that we're supposed to be out there saving people--but WE don't save people! Jesus does. We witness--we share our lives and our testimonies. The example in Scripture is that we should not cast pearls before swine--rather, I believe discipleship is the context for sharing our faith.

Rather than telling everyone to "evangelize" I think it's important to tell everyone, as Paul so often did, to start LIVING their faith! When we live our faiths God uses us to make disciples.

[Marsha Lynn]

The point I would make on this is that while nobody lives in the building many people never leave the "church" in regards to having fellowship with those outside the Body. Many believers claim that they do not know an unbeliever. As far as community, there are many who never venture outside their local church community. For some, the "GO" is to cross the street or cubicle and yet many do not. The premise of "Go" is easy but many fail to ever do so.

I know this bothers a lot of people, but, my observation is that someone could spend their entire life ministering to people inside the church doors and never run out of discipling/evangelism opportunities. Do we get more hurting people into the church here in the Bible belt than happens in other areas?

BTW, lest this seems like rationalization for not ministering outside the church doors, I'll note that I work in a public place and am intentional in developing relationships with people at all stages of spiritual development. I just hate to see the churched/unchurched dichotomy define acceptable levels of ministry. Someone doesn't stop needing help along the path to relationship with God when they step into a church, nor when they're elected to the board, as many of us could testify from personal encounters.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

I realize that this emphasis upon love as evidence of discipleship will seem too loosey-goosey to some. It certainly doesn't suggest an obvious strategy or method. And I'm not against strategies and methods per se. But this verse helps me remember that love ought to remain the heart of any Christian discipleship endeavor.

Tom, thank you for sharing this.

As I have been experimenting in this whole idea of "God must be God and love must be enough," I have become awed by the power of love and how it translates into discipleship.

At age 50, I teach a young adult Sunday School class. As most of you know, this is the most "at risk" age group in the Church of the Nazarene. All over the denomination, young adults are walking away and finding other traditions in which to land if they land at all. They are able to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions. And their conclusions sometimes leave them out of step with the corporate viewpoint of the denomination.

I present my own views to them as just that -- my own views, not absolute truth. And I love and embrace them like family.

What is terrifying is the level of influence love gives me with them. I don't have to "teach the truth". They watch my life and listen to my words and figure out what I believe (sometimes discerning more about what I believe than I know myself) and are influenced by it to an unsettling degree. The DC Talk song "What If I Stumble?" rings in my heart. "What if I lose my step and I make fools of us all?"

I really do believe that love is the most powerful force in the world. I have observed with interest as one of my own mentors has decided that we need tough love that disciplines those who don't measure up to our standards. As she effects social correction by lowering the level of friendship and acceptance offered to an offending party, I see her influence drop. What she tells me is that she tried love and it wasn't effective so now she needs to exercise discipline. And it all sounds very correct and biblical.

Yet, I wonder ... Was her friendship conditional on acceptable behavior on the part of its object? If it was unconditional, how can she now withhold it as an act of discipline? If it was indeed conditional and had movement toward spiritual maturity as its condition, could that have been the problem? Would it not be more effective to go back and offer love that sees the warts and loves anyway?

I obviously don't have all the answers here. But what seems to be most effective for discipling others is to love them deeply and unconditionally and to live well in front of them. Both of those goals require much grace.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

I don't actually see the distinction between discipleship and evangelism.

My daughter and I have a young friend who has been raised in a church that has unorthodox beliefs. We have discussed the question, Is he a Christian? After all, he reads the Bible and seeks to follow the teachings of Christ, but he doesn't necessarily have the "correct" view of Christ as divine Savior and Redeemer.

The discussion is strictly academic. Neither of us is overly concerned about the answer. Either way, he is on a spiritual journey. For the summer, he has chosen to be part of our church. Will we disciple him or evangelize him? Or maybe we ourselves will be discipled through our interactions with him. Is it enough to simply love him and welcome him into the fellowship? If what he needs is discipling, won't love and acceptance draw him into the influence of the group. If what he needs is to 'be saved', won't love and acceptance draw him into the influence of the group? Either way, we believe and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. We believe and teach that there are moments in life when we must choose where our loyalties lie, whether or not we will put our faith in Jesus Christ and his teachings. What difference to our ministry to this young man and others does it make to determine which side of a particular gate he is on? Regardless, he has chosen to number himself among us for a couple of months. That's at least some level of commitment. And yet, as for all of us, there is a fork in the road in his future. My hope and prayer is that when he arrives at the next fork in his road, something that he has encountered among us will make a difference in his choice of which path to take.

Marsha

Part of my faith journey at the moment is to gain a more three-dimensional understanding of what Matthew 28:19 means by 'make disciples'.

I did a Google search of the term and found the Greek word mathēteusate, which is commonly translated 'make disciples'. It seems that so much of evangelical praxis, including the Church of the Nazarene's mission statement, hinges on this one verse (!), so maybe it's worth a closer look. :)

In my Google search, almost every mention of that verse is either an apologetic for business-as-usual evangelism or a polemic against lazy Christians who aren't winning their neighborhood, family and friends to christianity.

I find the Great Commission interesting at many levels, not the least of which is that Jesus drops these so-called marching orders on the disciples and then leaves the scene with no further elaboration or instruction. Yes I understand that the Holy Spirit picked up where Jesus left off...


The main questions I am mulling over:

1. In 1st century Judaism, 'making disciples' was the work of a Rabbi, not a synagogue. (correct me if I'm wrong) In either case, what is the contemporary analogy to the rabbi-disciple relationship?

2. I have become increasingly uncomfortable with the idea that evangelism and discipleship are polar opposites between which we must find a via media, the perfect balance between making a decision and then living it out. Can a church truly do one and not do the other?

3. Is evangelism without discipleship truly evangelism or is it salesmanship?

4. Is discipleship without evangelism truly discipleship or is it a secret society?

[Steven Martinez]

I know this bothers a lot of people, but, my observation is that someone could spend their entire life ministering to people inside the church doors and never run out of discipling/evangelism opportunities. Do we get more hurting people into the church here in the Bible belt than happens in other areas?

BTW, lest this seems like rationalization for not ministering outside the church doors, I'll note that I work in a public place and am intentional in developing relationships with people at all stages of spiritual development. I just hate to see the churched/unchurched dichotomy define acceptable levels of ministry. Someone doesn't stop needing help along the path to relationship with God when they step into a church, nor when they're elected to the board, as many of us could testify from personal encounters.

Marsha

Marsha, I think we are on the same level. Notice how i used the word church in quotes. The distinction that must be made is those who believe and those who do not, because they need to hear and see the Good News. Those who believe are challanged in different ways. I do not like the distinction of church and unchurched because there are many unchurched who believe and vice versa.
Our churches are filled with people who lack. Yet, I think we can agree that our churches do very little in discipling their own community because their is an assumption that discipleship naturally happens. Therefore in these churches the "go" is to go to the next seat/pew.

I think Jesus tells us to go... the Spirit tells us our exact location. Some are called to go to China, so are called to go to their brothers and sisters. However, I think we can all agree that for what ever reasons we as a Church lack the desire to go any where except for the comfortable spot that we create in our lives. I truly believe that we could turn around our churches if we went where God wants us to go.

[Billy Cox]

What really concerns me is the number of people who teach "once saved, always saved" with the promise that if you said "the sinner's prayer" with that guy on a street corner then, regardless of the presence of absence of fruit, you are going to heaven. How many people said it and it was meant and evidence of the Lord is abundant? VS those who said it because the person scared them or they were embarrassed not to, etc. And then are told they are for sure saved. Scary.

...

Rather than telling everyone to "evangelize" I think it's important to tell everyone, as Paul so often did, to start LIVING their faith! When we live our faiths God uses us to make disciples.

I have sometimes wondered whether our embrace of certain evangelistic methods was a de facto acceptance of the Calvinistic underpinnings. Get people saved. If it 'takes' and they become a tither, teach Sunday School and do mission trips, then the person is obviously in the elect. If not, then they must not have been in the elect and it's no skin off our noses.

There have been efforts to Wesleyanize some of the popular 'soul-winning' programs (Evangelism Explosion, Roman Road), but I compare it to putting a Mustang emblem on an AMC Gremlin and calling it a sports car. :cool:

[Marsha Lynn]

I truly believe that we could turn around our churches if we went where God wants us to go.

So let's "just do it"! How many people do you need on your bandwagon before you can effect this change?

:fav18

[Billy Cox]

I don't actually see the distinction between discipleship and evangelism.

My daughter and I have a young friend who has been raised in a church that has unorthodox beliefs. We have discussed the question, Is he a Christian? After all, he reads the Bible and seeks to follow the teachings of Christ, but he doesn't necessarily have the "correct" view of Christ as divine Savior and Redeemer.

The discussion is strictly academic. Neither of us is overly concerned about the answer. Either way, he is on a spiritual journey. For the summer, he has chosen to be part of our church. Will we disciple him or evangelize him? Or maybe we ourselves will be discipled through our interactions with him. Is it enough to simply love him and welcome him into the fellowship? If what he needs is discipling, won't love and acceptance draw him into the influence of the group. If what he needs is to 'be saved', won't love and acceptance draw him into the influence of the group? Either way, we believe and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. We believe and teach that there are moments in life when we must choose where our loyalties lie, whether or not we will put our faith in Jesus Christ and his teachings. What difference to our ministry to this young man and others does it make to determine which side of a particular gate he is on? Regardless, he has chosen to number himself among us for a couple of months. That's at least some level of commitment. And yet, as for all of us, there is a fork in the road in his future. My hope and prayer is that when he arrives at the next fork in his road, something that he has encountered among us will make a difference in his choice of which path to take.

Marsha

I resonate with this point of view. Incidentally, if you ever want to find out who in your local church sees the message of salvation as a 'get-out-of-hell-free card' just go around saying this kind of stuff. :basic05

[Marsha Lynn]

I resonate with this point of view. Incidentally, if you ever want to find out who in your local church sees the message of salvation as a 'get-out-of-hell-free card' just go around saying this kind of stuff. :basic05

How about if you come and say it? I'll stand aside and take notes and look seriously concerned as the truth is explained to you more adequately.

:laughing

(D'ya think I'm stupid or something? Why do you think I'm hiding out here on this perfectly public forum counting on my lack of authority to combine with technophobia to save me from the defenders of the faith?)

:eek:

Marsha

[Randy McRoberts]

I saw this today on a blog, and thought it was pretty good. It really goes to the issue of whether we think about our mission as asking people to come to us or going to them.

What is missional (http://markpetersen.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/what-is-missional/)?

Being missional is:


having a focus outward, not inward
serving with no-strings-attached, not driving an agenda
listening to the needs of the community, not imposing one’s own solutions
learning the language and customs of the community, not being incomprehensible or irrelevant
enjoying the journey together, not feeling that the destination is the only thing of value
moving out from our community incarnationally (I am at home everywhere), not bringing people into our community (I am only at home with my own kind)
being all of us together, not ‘us versus them’
learning to dwell in the margins or risky areas, not preferring the comfortable centre
being changed - all of us - not just ‘them’
belonging before believing, not believing before belonging


Add to that the statement of Jesus mentioned by Thomas Oord, and we are on the way to actually doing both disciple-making and evangelism, and thus actually doing our mission.

Now, if I can get this out of the theoretical realm and into the practical, I might be worth something to Jesus. Unfortunately, I've been cloistered in the church building so long I hardly know anyone outside. I've been schooled in the ABCs (attendance, buildings, and cash) so long I hardly know how to break out.