District Consolidation

[Jon Twitchell]

There's no doubt in my mind that the Church of the Nazarene (at least in the US) has far too much money & personnel resources tied up in mid-level management and district structures.

I would like to see a resolution that would require all districts (that do not already meet a set standard of health, membership, finances) to enter into a merger relationship with one or two other districts. The goal would be to reduce the number of USA districts by 1/2. (Other exemptions, based on geography, could be written into the resolution as well).

I realize that such a resolution would have a minimal chance of passing--after all, a good number of the delegates are district superintendents. But it puts the idea on the table.

Anyone think this is worthy of support? Or am I just out to lunch?

[Ryan Scott]

I'm pretty sure people have already done some research into consolidating (or completely redrawing) districts in the US. It's just been considered a futile effort in reality, so it hasn't seen progress.

Your suggestion may be better than any large-scale redrawing of boundaries, simply because there is no other overarching plan that will work better overall than the current system. There might be improvements in some areas, but not all.

I do think it would be wise for the recognition of districts and criteria for a district being "phase three" be determined regionally. I know of one district outside the US where the local congregations are paying 40 and 50% of their money raised to support a district structure just so they can have full representation.

There are districts in impoverished and war-torn areas of the world that could not hope to reach the US-set levels of self-sufficiency even with tens of thousands of members.

Both of these situations seem quite unfair.

[Rick Boyt]

Our District, Louisiana, Share A District Superintendent With Mississippi. In Our Last District Assemblies Both Districts Voted To Continue Sharing The One Superintendent For 4 Additional Years. We Are Not Merged And To Note One Thing, We Are On 2 Different Educational Zones. We Are On Snu And They Are On Tnu. My Wife Is On The District Advisory Council Which Met When This Initially Began. The District Advisory Council Consists Of The District Advisory Board And The Three Department Heads.

Several Years Ago The Houston District And The San Antonio District Did A Complete Merge. Probably The Next Merger Will Involve Two Of The Oklahoma Districts Very Soon. This Will Probably Become A Trend In The Church Of The Nazarene Very Soon.

Rick Boyt

[Kent Campbell]

The districts in Oklahoma that will soon merge will be the Northwest District and the Southwest District. This will leave two other district in that state (the Northeast and the Southeast Districts).

[Dave McClung]

There's no doubt in my mind that the Church of the Nazarene (at least in the US) has far too much money & personnel resources tied up in mid-level management and district structures.

I would like to see a resolution that would require all districts (that do not already meet a set standard of health, membership, finances) to enter into a merger relationship with one or two other districts. The goal would be to reduce the number of USA districts by 1/2. (Other exemptions, based on geography, could be written into the resolution as well).

I realize that such a resolution would have a minimal chance of passing--after all, a good number of the delegates are district superintendents. But it puts the idea on the table.

Anyone think this is worthy of support? Or am I just out to lunch?

If I read the tea leaves directly your goal is likely to be achieved differently. There is a strong movement to pass a resolution that the maximum allocations assigned to any local church will be 10% of total amont raised. If that resoluton passes, districts will be merging all over the U.S. They will have to.

[Jon Twitchell]

If I read the tea leaves directly your goal is likely to be achieved differently. There is a strong movement to pass a resolution that the maximum allocations assigned to any local church will be 10% of total amont raised. If that resoluton passes, districts will be merging all over the U.S. They will have to.






Dave,

Does that resolution include WEF money as part of that 10%?

[Jim Franklin]

As a Geographer I have long felt that merging of districts rather than spliting districts creating new districts would be more prudent and I would be pleased to serve on a commission to research and consult on this issue. While on the BNC faculty the campus was on the Northwest Oklahoma District while I lived on and attended Calvary church on the Southwest Oklahoma District. The greater OKC area is actually split between all four districts.

[Jon Twitchell]

Jim,

I'm sure you would do a great job serving on such a commission.

My fear with a commission is that it would take until 2013 to review/recommend, and then until 2017 until it's completed.

I think that districts should be required to submit their intentions to merge by 2011, with the merges to be completed by 2013. I think that mergers would be more successful if the districts had a large degree of ownership in the "WHO" and the "HOW" of the merger.

However, as Dave points out, mergers may become a practical reality WHEN the resolution to lower the CAP passes. :)

[Ryan Scott]

I've heard discussions about a bunch of different models for re-drawing lines, but mergers resulting from financial implications, as sad as those circumstances are, might be the way to go.

[Roland Hearn]

Jon I am in complete agreement with you. I think that an enormous amount of resources, human and financial, are wasted at district level. It is purely a functional level of management in which the need really does not exist to the same extent that it once did. I think less districts that are larger and better staffed are a much better use of resources.

Here in Australia both the Rugby League and Australian Rules football codes have been forced into merger type situations over the last few years. Clubs that have been around for a century had to join with other clubs to survive. There were two reasons for it. The first was financial but the second was much more pragmatic. With fewer clubs there was less need for playing staff so therefore the level of competition became better as less adequate players were weeded out. I think both of those reasons apply to the church in some way.

[William Hunter]

Jon, I fully agree and hope to see such a move. We have too many layers taking too much money out of the local church.




There's no doubt in my mind that the Church of the Nazarene (at least in the US) has far too much money & personnel resources tied up in mid-level management and district structures.

I would like to see a resolution that would require all districts (that do not already meet a set standard of health, membership, finances) to enter into a merger relationship with one or two other districts. The goal would be to reduce the number of USA districts by 1/2. (Other exemptions, based on geography, could be written into the resolution as well).

I realize that such a resolution would have a minimal chance of passing--after all, a good number of the delegates are district superintendents. But it puts the idea on the table.

Anyone think this is worthy of support? Or am I just out to lunch?

[Hans Deventer]

I think that districts should be required to submit their intentions to merge by 2011, with the merges to be completed by 2013. I think that mergers would be more successful if the districts had a large degree of ownership in the "WHO" and the "HOW" of the merger.

A couple of years ago the San Antonio District and another Texas district merged with Duane Srader becoming the DS of the new district. If anyone would want to submit a resolution regarding mergers, it would be helpful to support that resolution with the findings from that merger.

[Paul Whitaker]

The districts in Oklahoma that will soon merge will be the Northwest District and the Southwest District. This will leave two other district in that state (the Northeast and the Southeast Districts).

The time for this would be now with the resignation of Theron Daniels from NWOklahoma and with Talmadge Johnson an interim of SWOklahoma district.

[Ken Pell]

The time for this would be now with the resignation of Theron Daniels from NWOklahoma and with Talmadge Johnson an interim of SWOklahoma district.

I think it is in the works at least on the drafting table. McKellips is a good DS (NEO). :)

[Jim Franklin]

I was able to access a map of the Canadian and US Districts but can anyone give me guidance as to determining the number of churches in each district without accessing each district separately? If I could have this information I could get started on some research toward proposals.

Area wise the districts smallest in area are in a band from Chicago Central to Metro New York, the Nazarene Belt then stretching southwestward to Oklahoma.

Perhaps some of the districts outside of Anglo-America could be consolidated also.

Jon, should I know what is meant by CAP.

[David Showalter]

The time for this would be now with the resignation of Theron Daniels from NWOklahoma and with Talmadge Johnson an interim of SWOklahoma district.

Paul, is Theron Daniels retiring?

[Jon Twitchell]

I was able to access a map of the Canadian and US Districts but can anyone give me guidance as to determining the number of churches in each district without accessing each district separately? If I could have this information I could get started on some research toward proposals.

Area wise the districts smallest in area are in a band from Chicago Central to Metro New York, the Nazarene Belt then stretching southwestward to Oklahoma.

Perhaps some of the districts outside of Anglo-America could be consolidated also.

Jon, should I know what is meant by CAP.

I don't know how to determine that... perhaps one of our friends at HQ would have that information.

CAP - I shouldn't have capitalized it.... The "cap" is the percentage of RAP (raised for all purposes) over which churches shall not be required to give in allocations. Currently, the cap is 20%. Dave indicated that there may be resolutions seeking to reduce the cap to 10%.

[Hal Paul]

I was able to access a map of the Canadian and US Districts but can anyone give me guidance as to determining the number of churches in each district without accessing each district separately? If I could have this information I could get started on some research toward proposals.

Area wise the districts smallest in area are in a band from Chicago Central to Metro New York, the Nazarene Belt then stretching southwestward to Oklahoma.

Perhaps some of the districts outside of Anglo-America could be consolidated also.

Jon, should I know what is meant by CAP.

Jim, you can find statistics on Nazarene Districts at Nazarene Congregational Data Search (http://app.nazarene.org/FindAChurch/search.jsp?SearchChoice=churchReports). In the advanced search box, type the district name, when the search returns the results, select the summary report, it should give you the number of churches in that district as of 2007.

[Hal Paul]

If we're going to merge districts, I think we need to re-look the role of the DS. They already do way too much traveling. I remember when I lived in Nebraska, Jim Diehl who was our DS, mentioned one time when he was at our church that he had just turned over 100K miles on his then 2 year old car. At the time Nebraska had about 44 churches.

Having just come from the South Texas district, I am aware that Duane Srader is always on the road, and much of the time, his wife drives so he can do his work while he travels. I recall several conversations with pastors who said if you want to reach Dr. Srader, your best bet was to not call the district office, but to call his cell phone, or send an e-mail because you were pretty much guaranteed that he wouldn't be in Houston. South Texas is geographically larger than Nebraska, and Dr. Srader has to serve almost twice as many churches as Dr. Diehl did.

One thing, with all of Dr. Diehl's traveling, since he only had 44 churches to serve, we saw him at our church two or three times a year. In S.Texas, I don't recall seeing the DS or A.DS at our church, even with all their time on the road, outside of visits to the church related to pastoral transition.

I'm just not sure how wise it is to merge districts then demand the same type of traveling and oversight responsibilities for DS's that they currently face. If mergers take place, there's got to be other organizational restructuring to create efficiency of effort.

[David Pettigrew]

How many of our districts own campgrounds or district retreat centers? My experience is they serve as albatrosses to any talk of merger.

For instance, with the merger of Houston and San Antonio districts, neither of which owned a campground, the two districts left in Texas are West Texas and Dallas, both of which own a campground. Any talk of merger would be hampered by deciding which "side" gives up their campground. Since both districts are likely composed of DAB members who were sanctified on their campground, they will defend it to the death!:basic02

North Arkansas is very much opposed to a merger with South Arkansas (total viable churches on both districts combined under 100) because of the South Arkansas campground in Mena, which is in an inconvenient location and not conducive to today's needs.

I'm not saying these are insurmountable obstacles. I am saying that any time I hear talk of merger in these particular instances, the same thing comes up over and over again.

As Dave mentioned, a 10% cap would make supporting a campgrounds a moot point anyway.

[Ryan Scott]

Well, as you merge larger and larger areas, you can have more than one full-time person in administration. You'd save money merging three small districts and keeping two DS as full time people just by having less office overhead.

S Texas is an unusually large land area for the US, so it is an extreme example.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I think #11 in Dave's original "turn around" post describes a "district" setup that is superior to simple mergers.
http://www.naznet.com/community/showpost.php?p=171064&postcount=1

[John Kennedy]

Having spent several years on the old San Antonio District (my folks pastored South Austin and Killeen), I've wondered how the merger is working out. Also wondering if there has been any exploration of merging Dallas and West Texas.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Having spent several years on the old San Antonio District (my folks pastored South Austin and Killeen), I've wondered how the merger is working out. Also wondering if there has been any exploration of merging Dallas and West Texas.

Cool! I pastored Killeen church in the early 1980's.

You'll notice that I've not involved myself too much in discussions concerning the merger of SA and Houston districts. I had my reservations at the beginning and still have them. However, I am impressed by the number of new churches that have been organized and that is a real positive with me.

I'm a team player and, while I am not personally fully convinced, I believe in and support our leadership.

[Hal Paul]

keeping two DS as full time people just by having less office overhead. I guess that would be something of an organizational restructure, although I'm not sure how having two top dogs would be beneficial.

S Texas is an unusually large land area for the US, so it is an extreme example. Many of the western districts are already quite large land wise and if they were to merge with other districts they would comprise areas equal to or greater than S.Texas, in fact some already do (http://www.nazarene.org/files/docs/canusdst.pdf).

[Jim Franklin]

I have always thought that due area to cover that it might be prudent for the DSs of the Alaska, Rocky Mountain, Intermountain and other districts that are very large to obtain the services of a DS who has a private pilots license. I know Carl Summer recently of the SW Oklahoma District had a private pilots license.

[John Kennedy]

Campgrounds can be the 'poison pill' of both merger and partition. Back in the 50's when Northern Cal was being divided, I asked a HQ guy if the campground was an issue. His reply was 'Yes, but not in the way you might think." He went on to say that none of the new districts wanted it - it had become somewhat of a financial albatross.

I wish to congratulate you for the attitude of Christian charity and mastery of the English language in describing something to do with Mena, AR as not being "conducive to today's needs". Such inredibly rich restraint. Having been through there several times I'm not really sure I would be capable of that.

[Mark Bolerjack]

Paul, is Theron Daniels retiring?


Here is the full text of the District Update sent out last week:

For some months our son, Scott, and Pasadena
First Church have been talking with Barbara
and me about joining them on staff. After much
prayer and thought, we have decided that, since
we will have completed ten years of service in NW
Oklahoma, it would be good for us to make a change. We will be
doing this on or about September 1, 2008. I have been in contact
with our General Superintendent, Jesse Middendorf, and he will be
meeting with the District Advisory Council on Saturday, June 28.
As I have announced earlier, it has never been my plan to
stand for a renewal vote at the 2009 District Assembly, so this action
will also help in the further discussion of merger of the districts
in Oklahoma. Be in prayer that God will direct your leadership during
these days.
This has been a difficult decision for us. We love you all and
have enjoyed our ten years -- one fourth of our ministry -- in this
assignment. But we are looking forward to going back to serve in a
local church as we close out our ministry.
It just so happens that Pasadena is where Barbara and I met
in 1961 while attending Pasadena College (now Point Loma), so in
some ways it will be a little like going back to an old familiar place
for us. Also, both of our children live on the west coast and it is always
great to be closer to family. Pray for us as we make this drastic
change in our lives. My job title will be Discipleship Pastor with
the main responsibilities of “overseeing ministries of PazNaz that
equip lay-people for spiritual growth and for spiritual service. I will
also have a responsibility in helping people assimilate into the body
of Christ at PazNaz.” Because of my years of pastoral experience, I
will also be called upon to assist the pastor with funerals and other
services.
We have enjoyed our ten years in Northwest Oklahoma. Both
pastors and lay people have made us feel like we were a part of
your family. Thank you so much. We both will be praying for the
district as it moves through these critical days of decision for the
future.
Blessings, Tharon

[Mark Bolerjack]

How many of our districts own campgrounds or district retreat centers? My experience is they serve as albatrosses to any talk of merger.

This should not be a problem with the Oklahoma mergers, as neither NW and NE have campgrounds, and both SE and SW do have. The only drawback is that Camp Bond (SE) is in the far south part of the state, which would be a long drive from cities in NE Oklahoma. Thinking about this further, the NW district now uses Camp Bond for their camps, so the drive from NE Oklahoma would not be as far as the panhandle of OK now has to travel.

[Gina Stevenson]

'Would think that, in spite of merging districts, campgrounds could remain intact, so that a lot of folks wouldn't simply miss out on camp b/c of so much longer distances ... hopefully that would be financially feasible.

[Gary Swartzlander]

'Would think that, in spite of merging districts, campgrounds could remain intact, so that a lot of folks wouldn't simply miss out on camp b/c of so much longer distances ... hopefully that would be financially feasible.

I may be mistaken here, but I believe that our district campground at Indian Lake is entirely self-sufficient and self-supporting. Can on of you good Michiganders back me up on that?

[Marsha Lynn]

I may be mistaken here, but I believe that our district campground at Indian Lake is entirely self-sufficient and self-supporting. Can on of you good Michiganders back me up on that?

I don't know about Michigan, but I think I've heard that the NE Indiana's campground is at least self-supporting if not a source of revenue. But I don't know that for sure.

SW Indiana already uses the Indianapolis District Campground at Camby for our camps. (For District Ass'y a large, non-Nazarene church in Evansville is rented.) However, for other reasons, the idea of a merger with the Indianapolis District is certainly not an attractive idea to me.

Marsha

[Gary Swartzlander]

The 3 districts in Michigan have been holding annual training days for several years now. It shows great planning and cooperation by all involved. This years training day had nearly 1,000 people in attendance. We appreciate the cooperation of the districts and DS's in the state. Here are highlights from this year. http://www.minaz.org/team_day_2008_report.htm

There has to be more room for cooperation like this.

[Paul Tarrant]

I have always thought that due area to cover that it might be prudent for the DSs of the Alaska, Rocky Mountain, Intermountain and other districts that are very large to obtain the services of a DS who has a private pilots license. I know Carl Summer recently of the SW Oklahoma District had a private pilots license.

I've been chairing the "DS Search and Nomination Committee" commissioned by the last District Assembly, as chair for the last two meetings, and I have to say, in the "Leadership Characteristics Grid" we have been developing, a pilot's licence, and even a driver's licence don't feature... How would you place that trait in order with the regular and specific leadership traits...? I wonder.:laughing But we do expect our DS to use the commercial airlines rather than drive.

The big part of our UK considerations on district merger, is reducing the travelling requirements for the DS by inaugurating Mission Area chair-persons who will head up the missional aspects of the various areas. I'd be interested in anyone's perspective on the roles and success of "under-DSs", whatever they are called:cool:.

[Dennis M. Scott]

The big part of our UK considerations on district merger, is reducing the travelling requirements for the DS by inaugurating Mission Area chair-persons who will head up the missional aspects of the various areas. I'd be interested in anyone's perspective on the roles and success of "under-DSs", whatever they are called:cool:.

Ken Mills, Chuck Zink, and now Jossie Owens have all utilized mission area leaders, and all three have had different philosophies. Also, probably fifty different people have served as mission area leaders during these administrations. Consequently, sometimes it works well, and sometimes it works differently than very well. By and large, mission area leadership serves like the district leadership communicates they want it to. In our case, all three DSes wanted something different, so they have all gotten something different. I think, however, that all three would say that some mission area leaders did better than some others.

In the case of the UK, regardless of what the search committee sets up, whoever ultimately serves as DS will really set the tone for the success or failure of mission area leaders. Then if churches are willing to get behind it, the concept can be powerful.

[Walter Thompson]

There's no doubt in my mind that the Church of the Nazarene (at least in the US) has far too much money & personnel resources tied up in mid-level management and district structures.

I would like to see a resolution that would require all districts (that do not already meet a set standard of health, membership, finances) to enter into a merger relationship with one or two other districts. The goal would be to reduce the number of USA districts by 1/2. (Other exemptions, based on geography, could be written into the resolution as well).

I realize that such a resolution would have a minimal chance of passing--after all, a good number of the delegates are district superintendents. But it puts the idea on the table.

Anyone think this is worthy of support? Or am I just out to lunch?

OK...
I have stayed out of this for a long time. My district is involved with a merger...possible...
Here are the problems as many see it on both district. Hardly anyone, however wants to talk about it and the DS isn't talking to anyone about it accept the advisory boards.
Problems:
1. Two different educations zones are involved and the DS has responsibilities on both regions.
2. We don't know what the other district is contributing to the cost of the support of the DS, Secretary etc...
3. The creation of Missional Leaders, or what ever they are called, is adding to the cost of the bottom line rather than helping it out.
4. Too much secrecy
5. Discussion is met at arms length
6. Whats wrong with having each zone meet and have some input and see what the people actually want. For instance in our circumstances, both districts, might be better served if they were merged with two other districts on the same educational region. Two districts that are right next door to our districts. But that hasn't been discussed as far as I know.
Any how I am sure some will not like what is said; but, I will remain I faithful Nazarene.

[Dennis M. Scott]

OK...
I have stayed out of this for a long time. My district is involved with a merger...possible...
Here are the problems as many see it on both district. Hardly anyone, however wants to talk about it and the DS isn't talking to anyone about it accept the advisory boards.
Problems:
1. Two different educations zones are involved and the DS has responsibilities on both regions.
2. We don't know what the other district is contributing to the cost of the support of the DS, Secretary etc...
3. The creation of Missional Leaders, or what ever they are called, is adding to the cost of the bottom line rather than helping it out.
4. Too much secrecy
5. Discussion is met at arms length
6. Whats wrong with having each zone meet and have some input and see what the people actually want. For instance in our circumstances, both districts, might be better served if they were merged with two other districts on the same educational region. Two districts that are right next door to our districts. But that hasn't been discussed as far as I know.
Any how I am sure some will not like what is said; but, I will remain I faithful Nazarene.

You are certainly facing more issues than we have. A major difference is that to date our deployment of mission area leaders has been in a growth scenario. It sounds like maybe in yours it is to consolidate.

I don't understand the perception of additional costs with mission area leaders. They are not compensated, and not reimbursed for expenses. If they or their church cannot bear the expense, including travel, they are not asked to serve. The only expense I am aware of us that at quarterly meetings there is a meal, but it is usually carried by the church hosting the meeting. Undoubtedly I am overlooking something, but what expenses are you anticipating?

And, Walt, glad to see you again.

[Rick Boyt]

This is in reply to Walt Thompson.........I am a member of the other District. I would like to respond to some of your statements. I am a member of the Board of Trustees of our regional University if we EVER merge, the the districts will choose which region we will be on. Louisiana is contributing at least 1/2 of ALL expenses of the district office, DS, and other expenses related to the districts and we also have a district campground where Mississippi sold theirs a few years ago. There is no cost to adding missional leaders on our district. I do not know where you get that there is a cost. I am not aware of any secrecy about what is/was going on. There is much talk by the DS and the Advisory Council about what is going on with the people on the district. At each of our respective Assemblies, we both voted on the continued relationship. The DS, along with the District Advisory Council, toured the district, which I know that he did with the Mississippi District and held zone meeting with ALL of those interested. What is/was happening was well explained.
I would love to know how you come up with your conclusion as to what is going on. I really don't understand.

Rick Boyt

[Walter Thompson]

Please see my private message.

[Mike Schutz]

I am a member of the Board of Trustees of our regional University if we EVER merge, the the districts will choose which region we will be on.

Of course, I have absolutely no idea of the specifics of this particular situation. However, if the above statement is true, it would set a very interesting precedent.

[Herb Newell]

I have long thought that all three districts in New England should merge. I'm referring of course to New England, Maine and tne North East Kingdom of Vermont*

*Which has such a strong independent streak that they don't really think they're on the New England District most of the time anyway. I was there long enough to know of what I'm speaking.

But don't try to merge us with the Yorkers... Serious bad things would ensue. Well maybe Up-State NY would be ok (I was there too) but never ever NYC

Let's face it don't even think of merging NYC and Upstate. That would ruin one good district:basic03

[Mike Schutz]

Let's face it don't even think of merging NYC and Upstate. That would ruin one good district:basic03

It's really hard to imagine the Metro NY district merging with another district, as it already has twice as any churches as most others.

[Dave McClung]

I have long thought that all three districts in New England should merge. I'm referring of course to New England, Maine and tne North East Kingdom of Vermont*

*Which has such a strong independent streak that they don't really think they're on the New England District most of the time anyway. I was there long enough to know of what I'm speaking.

But don't try to merge us with the Yorkers... Serious bad things would ensue. Well maybe Up-State NY would be ok (I was there too) but never ever NYC

Let's face it don't even think of merging NYC and Upstate. That would ruin one good district:basic03

Herb
I am sitting here trying to figure out which district would be ruined.

Actually, I agree with you that it would be difficult to merge the two NY districts, but it would be practical to divide up the Philly District. The Metro District could cover all of the coastal area from Brooklyn to Philadelphia. The rest of the Philly District could become part of Mid Atlantic. Pittsburg and Upstate could combine. Maine should be part of the New England District.

Perhaps Vermont could be part of Canada.

[John Kennedy]

I have a good friend who is a native of Vermont. He is fond of making the statement that one of the nice things about Burlington is that it's so close to Vermont. Is this some sort of esoteric Vermont or New England inside joke?

come on, Vermont experts, if there be any of you here, Help me out!

[Kevin Rector]

I have a good friend who is a native of Vermont. He is fond of making the statement that one of the nice things about Burlington is that it's so close to Vermont. Is this some sort of esoteric Vermont or New England inside joke?

come on, Vermont experts, if there be any of you here, Help me out!

You'd have to ask my dad, he lived there for 11 years.

[Ryan Scott]

I have a good friend who is a native of Vermont. He is fond of making the statement that one of the nice things about Burlington is that it's so close to Vermont. Is this some sort of esoteric Vermont or New England inside joke?

come on, Vermont experts, if there be any of you here, Help me out!


Burlington is a wonderful small city, but of course, small cities aren't really Vermont (which is typified by open farmland and quaint small towns). Burlington is a great place to be because Vermont is so close by.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Not a Vermont expert. Don't live in Vermont, therefore can't be an expert. Linda's favorite shirt this summer says, "What Happens in Vermont stays in Vermont. But not much actually happens in Vermont." :basic03

[Dennis M. Scott]

Combining those districts would merely give them something else to drain energies from making disciples.

[Mike McVey]

Herb
I am sitting here trying to figure out which district would be ruined.

Actually, I agree with you that it would be difficult to merge the two NY districts, but it would be practical to divide up the Philly District. The Metro District could cover all of the coastal area from Brooklyn to Philadelphia. The rest of the Philly District could become part of Mid Atlantic. Pittsburg and Upstate could combine. Maine should be part of the New England District.

Perhaps Vermont could be part of Canada.



Pittsburgh. :)

[Herb Newell]

Pittsburgh. :)

Would a Pittsburgh / Upstate matchup work? I've lived in both (admittedly long ago) and they seem very similar to me.

[Ryan Scott]

Pittsburgh and East Ohio is the way to go. It's a lot of territory, but not as much as Pittsburgh/Upstate would be.

I don't think ENC would miss the relationship all that much; it's been strained for quite some time.

[Mike McVey]

Would a Pittsburgh / Upstate matchup work? I've lived in both (admittedly long ago) and they seem very similar to me.

I think mentality wise, Upstate would be more similar to Pittsburgh. But as Ryan said East Ohio probably makes more sense - mostly because they used to be the same district. But the mentality is very different with E. Ohio and W. Pennsylvania.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Somebody help me know what it is we're trying to do in Upstate New York and Pittsburgh? Does that have anything to do with any consolidation/merger plans?