Spiritual Renewal

[David Pettigrew]

This keeps coming up on this board -

"Why all this talk of structure? It doesn't matter what organizational changes we make when what we really need is revival." Perhaps that's an oversimplification or an unfair summary of the concern, and feel free to call me on that, but it seems be a summary of the concern as I'm understanding it.

First of all, let me share where I see the situation differently.

1.) With the renewed emphasis on disciple-making, there's more spiritual development taking place in our denomination today than at any point in the last fifty years.

2.) If anything, I would say our movement has been marked with emphasis on the spiritual to the neglect of the organizational.

3.) The Church of the Nazarene is no different than the rest of the Church right now, at least in the western world. We love material possessions too much. This is a matter of the heart, not a matter of denomination.

4. I'm reading a book right now that contends that all church problems are a) theological in nature, and b) rooted in leadership. It is beginning to make sense to me.

My questions are:

If we need a spiritual renewal in the Church of the Nazarene, what does that look like? How do we facilitate it? What can the denomination change to bring it about?

[Kent Campbell]

David you bring up a great and vaild point. This is something that I myself, along with some other friends, have been talking about for sometime now. Not sure if I am ready to comment on this now, but hopefully I can peice together some of my thoughts and some of the conversations I've had and bring them to the table. Can't say when that will happen. So stay tuned on this same bat channel.

[Billy Cox]

"Why all this talk of structure? It doesn't matter what organizational changes we make when what we really need is revival." Perhaps that's an oversimplification or an unfair summary of the concern, and feel free to call me on that, but it seems be a summary of the concern as I'm understanding it.

I believe that there is a science to organizational development and management. This science when properly applied will benefit an organization, whether it prays to God or to a jar of applesauce.

The value of spiritual renewal is not an effort to do things right, but is an effort to do the right things to start with. What good is it if we perfect the existing system only to more successfully chase away people in the 18-25 age group?

I see renewal as a combination of organizational science and spiritual discipline. One should not precede the other, but should go hand in hand.


1.) With the renewed emphasis on disciple-making, there's more spiritual development taking place in our denomination today than at any point in the last fifty years.

While I agree, I smile inwardly as I imagine you trying to prove it. :basic01



2.) If anything, I would say our movement has been marked with emphasis on the spiritual to the neglect of the organizational.

There is the saying that to a child with a hammer, all the world is a nail...and its corollary...to a person with theological training, all the world is a theological conundrum.

In situations like this, I just look at where the money is going. Maybe there is a lot of God-talk at the local level, but I daresay that the best-selling books and conferences are organizational in content and/or motivation.



3.) The Church of the Nazarene is no different than the rest of the Church right now, at least in the western world. We love material possessions too much. This is a matter of the heart, not a matter of denomination.

We have improved on Wesley. We make all we can, we spend all we can, we borrow all we can, and with what's left, we talk about giving all we can. :basic03

Can you imagine what the Church of the Nazarene would be like if its people lived more frugally and gave the difference to ministry?



4. I'm reading a book right now that contends that all church problems are a) theological in nature, and b) rooted in leadership. It is beginning to make sense to me.

'All' is a pretty inclusive word. So the clogged toilet would respond to prayer moreso than a plunger?



If we need a spiritual renewal in the Church of the Nazarene, what does that look like? How do we facilitate it? What can the denomination change to bring it about?

I am in one of those hopeful frames of minds. I believe that the fact we are having substantive discussion means that renewal is already in motion - and it starts with desiring in our heart what God desires.

What can the denomination do? It can avoid the temptation to squash those who are saying scary things.

[Ryan Scott]

I do agree that our practice is a better judge of our beliefs than our words. Practice and belief influence each other towards a stronger faith; it is not one or the other. Frankly, I don't think there is anything to be done at a general level that will alter or change belief in local contexts. I do think there are things to be done on a general level that can bring our practice more in line with our stated and historic beliefs.

I think all of these things are a matter of "renewal."

[Susan Unger]

This keeps coming up on this board -

"Why all this talk of structure? It doesn't matter what organizational changes we make when what we really need is revival." Perhaps that's an oversimplification or an unfair summary of the concern, and feel free to call me on that, but it seems be a summary of the concern as I'm understanding it.

First of all, let me share where I see the situation differently.

1.) With the renewed emphasis on disciple-making, there's more spiritual development taking place in our denomination today than at any point in the last fifty years.

2.) If anything, I would say our movement has been marked with emphasis on the spiritual to the neglect of the organizational.

3.) The Church of the Nazarene is no different than the rest of the Church right now, at least in the western world. We love material possessions too much. This is a matter of the heart, not a matter of denomination.

4. I'm reading a book right now that contends that all church problems are a) theological in nature, and b) rooted in leadership. It is beginning to make sense to me.

My questions are:

If we need a spiritual renewal in the Church of the Nazarene, what does that look like? How do we facilitate it? What can the denomination change to bring it about?

I automatically think spiritual first when it comes to renewal cuz my former church really was so lacking in this regard. But then when I stop thinking of them and change it to "Dave is asking how a healthy church could do things better" then I think I can begin to understand where you are coming from.

A structural issue would be improved communication. I heard an expert on leadership speak on the 5 Cs of Leadership. Point #3 stressed the importance of communication. Communication is like Oil - it is what makes the church move smoothly. In order to have a happy, healthy church, each one must be able to trust each other. One can’t have trust w/o good communication. W/O it, the group guesses what the leadership is doing and this leads to gossip. If the congregation doesn't communicate well with the leadership, the leadership has to guess and won't always guess well. And with good trust and good communication comes good teamwork. If my memory is correct, one of the larger churches on my district started to really grow once they improved communication within the church.

My current church is using newchurchspecialites.org to help us "refocus" the church. This is supposed to address issues like this. We're just getting started so don't know what all has to be done to refocus us structurely.

[David Pettigrew]

'All' is a pretty inclusive word. So the clogged toilet would respond to prayer moreso than a plunger?

Please read the relevant section again, but swap out the word "problems" with the word "conflicts". Sorry.

[Billy Cox]

Please read the relevant section again, but swap out the word "problems" with the word "conflicts". Sorry.

Yeah...just messin' with you. :basic05

[Gina Stevenson]

'All' is a pretty inclusive word. So the clogged toilet would respond to prayer moreso than a plunger?

I am in one of those hopeful frames of minds ...............

Typical Billy. "Hopeful frame of mind?" Are you sure? Seems more like your farcical one, Billy. :basic05

Anyway, it's late, and I just couldn't help imagine, while reading about the possibility of a spiritual approach to a plumbing problem, someone standing over the commode commanding whatever to "Come out!" [tho' you'd not want it out but to move further on down the pipes! :rolleyes: :laughing]

[Gene Tatsch]

This keeps coming up on this board -
.....
My questions are:

If we need a spiritual renewal in the Church of the Nazarene, what does that look like? How do we facilitate it? What can the denomination change to bring it about?

It seems to me that an organization is a useful tool in implementing a specified mission/purpose if, and only if, the mission impels every function of the organization. When this is reversed, the organization has left its proper function.

I think you've hit the key issues:
- How do we facilitate renewal of people in an operational sense?
- What role does the denomination/organization have in this renewal and what changes must be made to fit that purpose?

Of course, no simple procedure will work - God won't get into our box :) ... but what New Testament principles apply??
Something as simple as praying "effectually and fervently" for each other, praying for His Leadership in these discussions, may be a reasonable start???

At least we have the clear, concise, Biblical denominational Mission ("To Make Christlike Disciples in the Nations") as a standard.