The Need for the Church

[Charles W Christian]

Another ecclesiology (doctrine of the Church) post in the theology board....

Can someone really be a Christian without being part of a local church? What I mean is: Can they not only make a decision for Christ, but also grow in Christ and remain a Christian throughout their lives without a local church of some kind?

What biblical foundations do you base your answer upon?

Charles

[Chris Patton]

I'm gonna say no. I'm sure that with people in nursing homes can be Christian, but I don't see anywhere in Scripture where following God or Christ is ever done in an individual fashion. It seems to be always done within a community of faith. I guess one major concern I have is this; how does one know that one is just not hearing their own voice in their head if there is not a community to confirm or deny that personal beliefs, interpretations, lifestyles are indeed from God?

[John Kennedy]

It has been my observation that a casino graphically illustrates the difference between possibility and probability. It is, through the grace of God, entirely possible for one to be a Christian under the terms and conditions you described. It is, however, highly improbable. You'd probably have bette odds in Vegas.

[Laurie Florence]

I think it is possible for someone to be a christian and live a christian life without involvement in a local church. (However, this is not to say that it wouldn't be a lonely and difficult journey.) The biblical foundation that I would base this answer on would be found in Matthew 22:36-40, where Jesus presents the greatest commandment. I believe one can love God and love their neighbour as themself, without going to church.

[Billy Cox]

Another ecclesiology (doctrine of the Church) post in the theology board....

Can someone really be a Christian without being part of a local church? What I mean is: Can they not only make a decision for Christ, but also grow in Christ and remain a Christian throughout their lives without a local church of some kind?

What biblical foundations do you base your answer upon?

Charles

I think a better question is how we came to see 'local church' and 'community of faith' as synonyms. We would do well to listen to ourselves when we recite the truism, "this building is not the church, we are." 1 Cor 3:9-17

Where two or three Christ-followers are gathered IS the local church; buildings, staff and agendas are optional.

[Billy Cox]

I think a better question is how we came to see 'local church' and 'community of faith' as synonyms. We would do well to listen to ourselves when we recite the truism, "this building is not the church, we are." 1 Cor 3:9-17

Where two or three Christ-followers are gathered IS the local church; buildings, staff and agendas are optional.

To be clear, the 1 Corinthians passage leaves me with the impression that as a follower of Christ, the local church goes wherever I go...hence my answer of 'No'.

Does a Christian's salvation hinge on affiliation with an institution? I doubt it.

[Charles W Christian]

To be clear, the 1 Corinthians passage leaves me with the impression that as a follower of Christ, the local church goes wherever I go...hence my answer of 'No'.

Does a Christian's salvation hinge on affiliation with an institution? I doubt it.

The local church goes wherever YOU go, individually? That seems to be reading a lot of singular pronoun into what is plural in the Greek, doesn't it???

What if the institution were created by God to serve the purpose of facilitating a relationship with God? Then, would the institution have a higher value, in your response??

Just exegetical questions....:basic07

Charles

[Scott Hilton]

Galatians 6:2 states that by carrying the burdens of each other (and this is in reference to the Body) you fulfill the law of Christ.

Maybe someone can explain to me how you can do that, without being involved with the local body?

blessings

[Billy Cox]

The local church goes wherever YOU go, individually? That seems to be reading a lot of singular pronoun into what is plural in the Greek, doesn't it???

What if the institution were created by God to serve the purpose of facilitating a relationship with God? Then, would the institution have a higher value, in your response??

Just exegetical questions....:basic07


I believe that a follower of Christ seeks community, whether that happens in a church building or not.

I think that the institution arose to meet missional needs, but institutions tend to take on a life of their own and before long the institution IS the mission.

Was the institution created by God? Yes, in the same indirect sense that God created motorcycles.

[Scott Hilton]

I believe that a follower of Christ seeks community, whether that happens in a church building or not.

I think that the institution arose to meet missional needs, but institutions tend to take on a life of their own and before long the institution IS the mission.

Was the institution created by God? Yes, in the same indirect sense that God created motorcycles.
To be honest here Billy and maybe I missed it. I don't see where Charles specified anywhere in his question that the local church equaled the local church building. I looked at the questiong that the local church could mean any number of things:local house church, local motorcycle group of believers etc and including church buildings.

I could have missed that though?

[Cathy Boulos]

Chris,
Nursing homes have services for Catholics and non Catholics. In the nursing homes they have Bible studies, pastors from the community preach and minister to the patients. As a chaplain I have seen it for myself.
Cathy

[Billy Cox]

To be honest here Billy and maybe I missed it. I don't see where Charles specified anywhere in his question that the local church equaled the local church building. I looked at the questiong that the local church could mean any number of things:local house church, local motorcycle group of believers etc and including church buildings.

I could have missed that though?

I took the most conventional working definition of local church; namely the organization that does things together on a regular basis - things that happen almost exclusively in the church building.

Charles did not limit the definition, but in my experience the question 'can someone drop out of church and still be saved' is referring to the organization, not the incarnational reality. (where two or three are gathered in Jesus' name...)

[Susan Unger]

I think it is possible for someone to be a christian and live a christian life without involvement in a local church. (However, this is not to say that it wouldn't be a lonely and difficult journey.) The biblical foundation that I would base this answer on would be found in Matthew 22:36-40, where Jesus presents the greatest commandment. I believe one can love God and love their neighbour as themself, without going to church.

I heard a missionary speak today that some christians in moslem lands have 'silent witnesses'. They do this to witness to the non-christian families. They have little to no church contact. I don't know how they do it, but they feel that they need to inorder to "Be Jesus" to their families.

[Laurie Florence]

I heard a missionary speak today that some christians in moslem lands have 'silent witnesses'. They do this to witness to the non-christian families. They have little to no church contact. I don't know how they do it, but they feel that they need to inorder to "Be Jesus" to their families.

That is what came to my mind when I saw this thread. There are missionaries in countries where it is dangerous to be a christian. They have to rely on the love of Jesus in their heart to witness to people, since they can't say His name or their affiliation with Him. It must be very difficult.

[Greg Farra]

Jesus gives us a great example in Luke 4:16. He went to synagogue on a regular basis. While we may find some extraordinary circumstances not to be part of a reglar body, we in the USA have very few reasons not to be. :preach

[Billy Cox]

Jesus gives us a great example in Luke 4:16. He went to synagogue on a regular basis. While we may find some extraordinary circumstances not to be part of a reglar body, we in the USA have very few reasons not to be. :preach

Of course it's worth noting that everything that the Gospel writers thought was worth remembering happened in places other than the synagogue.

(except of course for the synagogue riot in Nazareth)

[Greg Farra]

Of course it's worth noting that everything that the Gospel writers thought was worth remembering happened in places other than the synagogue.

(except of course for the synagogue riot in Nazareth)

Actually, Jesus taught in synagogues, even cast a demon out of a man while he was there (Mark 1:21-27). He also healed a man in the synagogue (Matthew12:9-14). It seems the Gospel writers did take note of some things worth remembering. Those may not seem important to you, but I'm sure it was to those that Jesus touched.

[Billy Cox]

Actually, Jesus taught in synagogues, even cast a demon out of a man while he was there (Mark 1:21-27). He also healed a man in the synagogue (Matthew12:9-14). It seems the Gospel writers did take note of some things worth remembering. Those may not seem important to you, but I'm sure it was to those that Jesus touched.

Even so, the synagogue was not the bright spot around which Jesus' ministry revolved.

If the question is whether salvation exists apart from the bricks and mortar entity that has a employer's tax ID and a corporate charter, then the answer is far from being an absolute certainty.

[Greg Farra]

Even so, the synagogue was not the bright spot around which Jesus' ministry revolved.

If the question is whether salvation exists apart from the bricks and mortar entity that has a employer's tax ID and a corporate charter, then the answer is far from being an absolute certainty.

I just wanted to set the record straight. Of course Jesus didn't spend all of his time there, but he made it a regular practice of attending. That would probably mean he was there on a weekly basis. He also went to the temple as well. After the Apostles had received the Holy Spirit, they spent much time ministering to people in the temple. God's people have always gathered together, whether at the tabernacle,temple, synagogue, home, or building. Our church met in a dog kennel at one time. We are all the body together, not little lone rangers.

[Ken Pell]

I think a better question is how we came to see 'local church' and 'community of faith' as synonyms. We would do well to listen to ourselves when we recite the truism, "this building is not the church, we are." 1 Cor 3:9-17

Where two or three Christ-followers are gathered IS the local church; buildings, staff and agendas are optional.

We often talk about the propensity to build doctrines and practices on passages which are taken out of context. The most recent is the July 4 thread where some decided (rightfully so) that it was way to easy to take "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord" out of context.

Billy, you have joined the masses with the verse you quote here which is specifically and exclusively used by Jesus on matters related to Church discipline. I think its context is significant. In fact, I think the individual (s) in the passage are obviously assumed to be part of a congregation. Read Mt 18 for yourself to decide.

The truth is the N.T. was written to local church bodies.

The truth is we are assumed to be invested / engaged / united with a local people. The sad thing to me is that so many believers do not see this. It is an indication of the church's failure both corporately and individually..

[Ramesh Deosarran]

Just a general thought ...

In describing the Church there needs to be a balance because a few essentials are important for consideration. The Church is a human institution. It is divinely ordained and is called the Body of Christ. It is place for fellowship, program, etc. It is a means and end. It exists as a means to accomplish other things like outreach. It is an end as the goal of salvation. It is about proclamation and people. It exists by what it proclaims. It is about the people of God. It is important to not confuse Church with the Kingdom of God. The Church proclaims the Kingdom of God. But it is not the Kingdom of God. It is visible and invisible. The Visible means all the structures that can be seen. This includes membership and worship. The Invisible Church is simply those whose names are written in heaven. The New Testament only knows the Church and it is always visible.

[Billy Cox]

Billy, you have joined the masses with the verse you quote here which is specifically and exclusively used by Jesus on matters related to Church discipline. I think its context is significant. In fact, I think the individual (s) in the passage are obviously assumed to be part of a congregation. Read Mt 18 for yourself to decide.


I think you may be too quickly judging my use of the 'where two or three are gathered' passage. Yes, it is misused all too frequently and sometimes even in jest to justify or even celebrate anemic participation in church activities, but that is far from my thinking on this topic.

All of Matthew 18 is a thesis on how a community of faith functions; with conflict resolution being one facet. Thus it does not do violence to the text to say... "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." (Mat 18:19-20)
...within the broader context of Matthew 18. Is there some textual reason why the verses in question can only be speaking to the topic of church discipline?

[Billy Cox]

I just wanted to set the record straight. Of course Jesus didn't spend all of his time there, but he made it a regular practice of attending. That would probably mean he was there on a weekly basis. He also went to the temple as well. After the Apostles had received the Holy Spirit, they spent much time ministering to people in the temple. God's people have always gathered together, whether at the tabernacle,temple, synagogue, home, or building. Our church met in a dog kennel at one time. We are all the body together, not little lone rangers.

I am mystified by the notion that if one isn't in love with organization charts, meetings and strategies, then one must therefore be a 'lone ranger'; a pejorative term that lowers the tenor of the discussion to name-calling.

I believe in a community of faith. Sometimes the local church even lends a helping hand.

[Greg Farra]

I am mystified by the notion that if one isn't in love with organization charts, meetings and strategies, then one must therefore be a 'lone ranger'; a pejorative term that lowers the tenor of the discussion to name-calling.

I believe in a community of faith. Sometimes the local church even lends a helping hand.

I'm sorry if you took it that way. It was not directed at you, but I have met plenty of people who want to do Christianity on their own. Heck, even the Lone Ranger had Tonto.

And as far as name calling, I've read enough of your tirades against fundamentalists a, conservatives, and evangelicals to know that the pot may be calling the kettle black.

[Ken Pell]

I think you may be too quickly judging my use of the 'where two or three are gathered' passage. Yes, it is misused all too frequently and sometimes even in jest to justify or even celebrate anemic participation in church activities, but that is far from my thinking on this topic.

All of Matthew 18 is a thesis on how a community of faith functions; with conflict resolution being one facet. Thus it does not do violence to the text to say...
...within the broader context of Matthew 18. Is there some textual reason why the verses in question can only be speaking to the topic of church discipline?

Within the broader context of Matthew 18 one would have to conclude a local church is in view. Call it what you will ... community of faith, etc. If it is organized and operating at a level that allows it to exact justice and discipline it is not a mere home Bible study.

[Glenda Harvey]

I feel it is possible but difficult for a person to remain a Christian and live a Christian life without being part of a Church. In a country like ours where there are so many distractions, Christian fellowship is important in helping a person stay focused on Christ. In our country there are a lot of different types of Churches. Formal Churches, Casual Churches, House Churches, Fellowship Groups, Organizations such as Christian Motorcycle Clubs. Most people should be able to find a Church or Christian group that will give them a place to serve, grow, and worship. . However there are people who have legitimate reasons not to attend Church regularly. Elderly people who live alone or with a family who do not attend Church and do not have their own transportation, people with work schedules that make Church attendance difficult, someone who is a full time care giver for a shut in and as someone else mentioned those in countries where Christianity is illegal. I believe that God will give these people the strength to grow spiritually in difficult circumstances.

[Billy Cox]

Within the broader context of Matthew 18 one would have to conclude a local church is in view. Call it what you will ... community of faith, etc. If it is organized and operating at a level that allows it to exact justice and discipline it is not a mere home Bible study.

On the contrary, the average home Bible study bears far more resemblance to a 1st century local church than does today's incorporated local church. Where some form of mutual accountability exists, justice and discipline can come into play.

It is tempting to look at the current ubiquity of highly organized local churches and conclude wrongly that this is what the New Testament is referring to when it says 'church'.

[Ken Pell]

On the contrary, the average home Bible study bears far more resemblance to a 1st century local church than does today's incorporated local church. Where some form of mutual accountability exists, justice and discipline can come into play.

It is tempting to look at the current ubiquity of highly organized local churches and conclude wrongly that this is what the New Testament is referring to when it says 'church'.

I think you are discounting the development of the church during the first century.

[William Hunter]

I would say no. Look at Deut. 12. The family of God is focused on a specific place and obedient living, including active involvement in the place of worsip with the whole local family, opens the door for rejoicing and joy filled Christians.



Another ecclesiology (doctrine of the Church) post in the theology board....

Can someone really be a Christian without being part of a local church? What I mean is: Can they not only make a decision for Christ, but also grow in Christ and remain a Christian throughout their lives without a local church of some kind?

What biblical foundations do you base your answer upon?

Charles

[Eric Vail]

Another ecclesiology (doctrine of the Church) post in the theology board....

Can someone really be a Christian without being part of a local church? What I mean is: Can they not only make a decision for Christ, but also grow in Christ and remain a Christian throughout their lives without a local church of some kind?

What biblical foundations do you base your answer upon?

Charles

It is interesting that the way this question is worded that it assumes a certain soteriology. It assumes that "salvation" is about a certain decision--it is about that crisis moment; salvation is something defined and understood individualistically. Thus, the church is nothing but a collection of people who have experienced/are experiencing their individual salvations. The church can be optional; it adds nothing or takes nothing away from salvation and what it means to be Christian, to experience/live out the fullness of the Good News.

If "salvation" is understood in broader terms of God reconciling all creation to himself, wherein all people are reconciled to each other and to the rest of creation, then there is no way to experience "salvation" than in healed, whole (loving) fellowship with God and others. As Paul exhorts the Philippians after the Christ hymn: you all (plural) work out your (one/singular) salvation with fear and trembling. I understand that to mean that we are to work together to discover the depths of what it means to be so shaped by our relationship to God and his self-revelation that our collective life together is a foretaste of our salvation (that will be fully revealed at the 2nd coming of Christ) from the corruption and chaos of the world. We are one body, one bride, one family, one polis, one church: a people who are living together in the reality of the Gospel. We are not individuals who happen to be in proximity to one another.

[Crystal Lutton]

If "salvation" is understood in broader terms of God reconciling all creation to himself, wherein all people are reconciled to each other and to the rest of creation, then there is no way to experience "salvation" than in healed, whole (loving) fellowship with God and others. As Paul exhorts the Philippians after the Christ hymn: you all (plural) work out your (one/singular) salvation with fear and trembling. I understand that to mean that we are to work together to discover the depths of what it means to be so shaped by our relationship to God and his self-revelation that our collective life together is a foretaste of our salvation (that will be fully revealed at the 2nd coming of Christ) from the corruption and chaos of the world. We are one body, one bride, one family, one polis, one church: a people who are living together in the reality of the Gospel. We are not individuals who happen to be in proximity to one another.that this answer is exactly why I believe you can't really mature and grow in a Christian walk outside of a local body of believers. God exists in plural unity, we cannot expect to mature as his children in isolation.