God creates evil, moral, calamity??

[Scott Hilton]

Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

How does this fit into the view that God does not bring calamity into our lives?

[David Parker]

Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

How does this fit into the view that God does not bring calamity into our lives?

I'm stumped. First time I've read that verse. Hope some of you true theologians can help me understand.

[Steven Martinez]

Two questions:
Why is this verse removed from its context?
Why do we assume God does not bring calimity?

The context is God addressing King Cyrus the Persian King who essentially took over the world. God is addressing that He and He alone is the sole reason why Cyrus' reign of power has happened. If God helps a nation win a war, does that not bring calimity to a nation? Considering that Cyrus conquered Babylon and Assyria (Israel's enemies) Israel would have been pretty happy for their calimity. The passage (Isa 45) even goes so far as calling Cyrus "God's annointed" or Messiah! God is using Cyrus to rebuild Israel (Jerusalem) and God has given him the power to do so. All who oppose Cyrus, and therefore oppose God will be put to shame.

The bigger issue is the view that God does not bring calimity into our lives. Where is this view found? Certainly not in the book of Job. Ask Sodom and Gamorah if God is a bringer of calimity... ask Eygpt... ask Israel. The problem with the question is the perspective. If God acts justly, and destroys sin, is this calimity or righteousness? From sin's perspective: calimity. From holiness' perspective: righteousness. The passage in question speaks of God's salvation. However there is a misconception amungst many that this salvation is free from calimity. Instead God's salvation is the destruction of sin and death. For many, there is a calmity in that the destruction of the sinful nature can be a painful, trialing process. If we resist God, then we face the calimity of His righteous salvation.
Perspective is always the key of theology. Barth and Bruner debated this already. Hebrews 12 gives a great insight about perspective and the way God choses to discipline His children. Verse 11: All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
Overall, this passage deals with God letting Cyrus and the Nations know that it is God who brings salvation and/or destruction. The choice is up to us to chose God's salvation for if we resit God then destruction is near.

[Scott Hilton]

Steven,

Thank you for your thoughts on this. I never know how much of a passage to post, I thought the entire chapter might be a bit much. That is to answer your first question.

My second question was also in application to natural disasters. I have see on this board and read in books by Nazarenes that it is an insult to God to attribute natural disasters etc. to Him. However with this verse in consideration and the fact that God openly states that He brings calamity, is the creator of light, darkness etc. then how is it that we feel comfortable attributing war and the atrocities that can happen in war to Him, but not with natural disasters in which He is also in control of?

[Hans Deventer]

My second question was also in application to natural disasters. I have see on this board and read in books by Nazarenes that it is an insult to God to attribute natural disasters etc. to Him. However with this verse in consideration and the fact that God openly states that He brings calamity, is the creator of light, darkness etc. then how is it that we feel comfortable attributing war and the atrocities that can happen in war to Him, but not with natural disasters in which He is also in control of?

Scott, I can't find how the context of this verse deals with natural disasters. Nor do I attribute the atrocities of war to Him. Seems to me we humans are responsible.

[Scott Hilton]

Hans,

So then you disagree with what Steven said? If God is helping someone win a war, the someone who loses the war will indeed endure calamity. How else do you interpret the scripture saying that God does indeed create calamity?

[Hans Deventer]

So then you disagree with what Steven said?

Yes. Ever since Jesus walked this earth, I haven't seen the hand of God in wars, nor in the holocaust. Can't imagine that the sins of the Jews prior to WW2 were of such an immense horror that the holocaust was needed to punish them and set them straight. not even talking about ages of pogroms and other oppression. They haven't been set straight anyway. I'm not denying the interpretations of the prophets, I am merely saying God's approach must have changed. Which wouldn't be new. After the flood, He concluded that He couldn't keep on doing it this way either.

So I don't see the hand of God in wars or natural disasters anymore.

[Scott Hilton]

Yes. Ever since Jesus walked this earth, I haven't seen the hand of God in wars, nor in the holocaust. Can't imagine that the sins of the Jews prior to WW2 were of such an immense horror that the holocaust was needed to punish them and set them straight. not even talking about ages of pogroms and other oppression. They haven't been set straight anyway. I'm not denying the interpretations of the prophets, I am merely saying God's approach must have changed. Which wouldn't be new. After the flood, He concluded that He couldn't keep on doing it this way either.

So I don't see the hand of God in wars or natural disasters anymore.
I am not sure what the holocaust has to do with what we are talking about. I mean, if we are going to do comparison war atrocities, I believe Old Testament wars can hold their own in human depravity and calamity occuring during them. So why is it acceptable to assign the O.T. wars to God, but not the post N.T. wars?

Just looking for clarification on the natural disasters, do you believe God did at one time create these calamities and no longer does or never did?

blessings

[Hans Deventer]

I am not sure what the holocaust has to do with what we are talking about.

I thought we were discussing calamities related to war? And the holocaust has nothing to do with that? I'm sorry Scott, I don't understand why you think there is no relation.

I mean, if we are going to do comparison war atrocities, I believe Old Testament wars can hold their own in human depravity and calamity occuring during them. So why is it acceptable to assign the O.T. wars to God, but not the post N.T. wars?

I didn't talk about "acceptable". Who am I to say what is acceptable?
Anyway, the Scriptures clearly talk about God's role in the OT wars, including those of the Assyrians, Babylonians and Persians. The Scriptures don't talk about post NT wars. It seems to me these are simply facts. Then the next point of course is a conclusion we have to make on our own. Well, mine is that He doesn't seem to be involved in them anymore because, contrary to what happened in the OT, there is no clear purpose.
Let's be clear about it. The Jews were able to make sense of the Babylonian captivity and wrote that down in the Bible. I haven't heard any of them makings sense out of the diaspora and ages of persecution ever since, culminating (but not ending) in the killing of 6 million of them. BTW, I may have missed something but I never read anything on that scale in the OT, apart from the flood.

And the interesting thing about the flood is that this is exactly a precedent of what I am proposing.

Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

Mind you, this change in approach is NOT because we humans have become so holy. No, exactly because we're not, God will not continue this approach, this way of bringing judgement.
So in the OT, He continued on a more limited scale by using both Israel and its neighbours as judgement. And what I am saying is, I haven't seen that approach in action since the 1st century AD.

Perhaps, later on, someone will be able to explain that the Vandals were to judge the Western Roman empire, the Turks the Eastern part, Djenghis Khan Eastern Europe, Germany the Jews and the people of Europe, Japan the people of Eastern Asia etc etc etc
But until I hear a "thus sayeth the Lord", I'm not buying.

Just looking for clarification on the natural disasters, do you believe God did at one time create these calamities and no longer does or never did?

No longer does. See my discussion on the flood above. You know, any judgement only has a purpose if the one judged understands why. If you put a guy in jail and he doesn't have a clue as to why, he won't change his behaviour. Well, nowadays there is no one telling why. I think if the Lord is acting, He'll make sure there are those who explain why. Otherwise, it seems useless (at least to me).
Even at the last judgement, the Lord is explaining why (Matthew 25:31-46). That is crucial.

[Scott Hilton]

I thought we were discussing calamities related to war? And the holocaust has nothing to do with that? I'm sorry Scott, I don't understand why you think there is no relation.
Hans,

My point on this is that you can't see God in the holocaust war, but you can see God in O.T. wars. Its comparison shopping of wars that from a 10ft view, no one would see God in. The holocaust is an easy target of war to bring up because it envokes emotion by this generation. However, I am betting that same emotion was prevelant in O.T. times and the same horror that comes with war now, came with war then. Until I can be shown why the holocaust is more depraved in its atrocity to the people involved and God is less soverign over this war, than previous ones, I will have a hard time seeing why this is any worse than the others. Hence, I am not seeing why the holocaust needs to be pointed out as if it were any worse on any individual than other wars. Humans have acted depraved in wars since the beginning. As to your point on the "scale" in numbers, I would suggest the the "scale" of the population is largely bigger now as well. Are thousands of lives wiped from the earth any less sorrowful than millions?

The O.T. scriptures do talk about God being active in wars. You are correct that the N.T. does not specify God causing wars, it also does not say anything about Him stopping His involvment. The scriptures of the N.T. are vastly different in their approach of deliverance than the O.T. scriptures as well. They had different purpose and after the gospel, were largely letters of teaching and correction. I am having a hard time making a conclusion that since the N.T. doesn't address the issue, that must mean God is no longer acting as He had previously.

On the Genesis scripture, I do read where God says He will no longer wipe out the entirety of the earth, but does not say anything about localized natural disasters. Do you attribute these disasters to simple, a fallen world?

No longer does. See my discussion on the flood above. You know, any judgement only has a purpose if the one judged understands why.
Not sure how I feel about this, we are judged in our sin before even knowing it. It would seem that Gods holiness is a righteous judgement, no matter if we the sinner gets it or not. On a human level, if someone decides to steal from me and is judged in the court of law to be guilty, he may not understand the judgement. That doesn't mean the judgement has no purpose. Often times, it takes time in jail for the heart to be turned unto repentance. Maybe sometimes as a people, we need to be put into jail (or into calamity) for our hearts to be turned unto repentance as well. I think the purpose is found in the creator, not in the judgement.

blessings

[Hans Deventer]

My point on this is that you can't see God in the holocaust war, but you can see God in O.T. wars.

Great. We agree here. My point exactly.

Its comparison shopping of wars that from a 10ft view, no one would see God in. The holocaust is an easy target of war to bring up because it envokes emotion by this generation. However, I am betting that same emotion was prevelant in O.T. times and the same horror that comes with war now, came with war then.

Sure.

Until I can be shown why the holocaust is more depraved in its atrocity to the people involved and God is less soverign over this war, than previous ones, I will have a hard time seeing why this is any worse than the others.

On the top of my head, can't think of any other moment in time when 6 million Jews got killed in 5 years. And since we're dealing with the comparison to OT wars (which involved the Jews), I thought I'd stick to the subject. But, I gladly admit, the extent of the atrocity is irrelevant in this discussion. The point is, it happened without any explanation and thus, from a human point of view, without any purpose other than a devilish one.

Hence, I am not seeing why the holocaust needs to be pointed out as if it were any worse on any individual than other wars. Humans have acted depraved in wars since the beginning. As to your point on the "scale" in numbers, I would suggest the the "scale" of the population is largely bigger now as well. Are thousands of lives wiped from the earth any less sorrowful than millions?

No.

The O.T. scriptures do talk about God being active in wars.

Yes.

You are correct that the N.T. does not specify God causing wars, it also does not say anything about Him stopping His involvement.

Correct. That is my very own and personal interpretation, based on what I see and have learned from history.

The scriptures of the N.T. are vastly different in their approach of deliverance than the O.T. scriptures as well. They had different purpose and after the gospel, were largely letters of teaching and correction. I am having a hard time making a conclusion that since the N.T. doesn't address the issue, that must mean God is no longer acting as He had previously.

That's interesting. Why is that so? The OT dealt with a nation, a people. The NT deals with a kingdom that goes way beyond the old nation of Israel and in fact, is quite a different reality. I'm sure you'll agree. So why would it be so unlikely that God deals differently with it? Can you explain?

On the Genesis scripture, I do read where God says He will no longer wipe out the entirety of the earth, but does not say anything about localized natural disasters.

Agreed. I quoted this only to clarify that God at least once has been known to change His methods. Hence, it is not so impossible that it would happen again.

Do you attribute these disasters to simple, a fallen world?

Yes. I don't think they existed before the fall.

Not sure how I feel about this, we are judged in our sin before even knowing it. It would seem that Gods holiness is a righteous judgement, no matter if we the sinner gets it or not. On a human level, if someone decides to steal from me and is judged in the court of law to be guilty, he may not understand the judgement. That doesn't mean the judgement has no purpose. Often times, it takes time in jail for the heart to be turned unto repentance.

Repentance of what, Scott? The guy doesn't know, remember?

Maybe sometimes as a people, we need to be put into jail (or into calamity) for our hearts to be turned unto repentance as well. I think the purpose is found in the creator, not in the judgement.

As I read it, this does not make sense. Repentance only comes if you understand what you need to repent of. Otherwise we end up like falsely accused victims of torturers, who'll confess to anything in order to have the torture stop. God isn't a torturer, judging us sheerly because of His holiness and leaving us in the dark as to the why. That is not an image of God I can live with.

I disagree with that image of God.

[Steven Martinez]

So then you disagree with what Steven said? If God is helping someone win a war, the someone who loses the war will indeed endure calamity. How else do you interpret the scripture saying that God does indeed create calamity?

Yes. Ever since Jesus walked this earth, I haven't seen the hand of God in wars, nor in the holocaust. Can't imagine that the sins of the Jews prior to WW2 were of such an immense horror that the holocaust was needed to punish them and set them straight. not even talking about ages of pogroms and other oppression. They haven't been set straight anyway. I'm not denying the interpretations of the prophets, I am merely saying God's approach must have changed. Which wouldn't be new. After the flood, He concluded that He couldn't keep on doing it this way either.

So I don't see the hand of God in wars or natural disasters anymore.


Hey wait a minute. There is an implication that has been made about me that is not true. I never mentioned modern war as God's will nor did I mention natural disasters. However, the passage seems to imply that the wars fought by Cyrus against the Babylonians was a righteous judgement against them. The same could be said about God using Babylon to judge Israel.
I agree with Hans that the reign of God's Messiah, Jesus Christ ushered in a new kingdom where sin is destroyed by the loving sacrifice of Christ and not the sword of nations.
Please do not imply statements that I did not write.

[Chuck Wilkes]

Interesting...how do you factor in James 1:13-15? A pretty clear teaching that evil does [U]not[U] come from God? It seems to me there is a clear difference between the revealed God of the OT and the fully revealed God of the NT, embodied in Jesus Christ.

Chuck

[Scott Hilton]

Interesting...how do you factor in James 1:13-15? A pretty clear teaching that evil does [U]not[U] come from God? It seems to me there is a clear difference between the revealed God of the OT and the fully revealed God of the NT, embodied in Jesus Christ.

Chuck
I am not seeing where that passage says God does not create evil, but that He does not tempt. Temptation and evil or calamity are two different things in my viewl.

[Scott Hilton]

Hey wait a minute. There is an implication that has been made about me that is not true. I never mentioned modern war as God's will nor did I mention natural disasters. However, the passage seems to imply that the wars fought by Cyrus against the Babylonians was a righteous judgement against them. The same could be said about God using Babylon to judge Israel.
I agree with Hans that the reign of God's Messiah, Jesus Christ ushered in a new kingdom where sin is destroyed by the loving sacrifice of Christ and not the sword of nations.
Please do not imply statements that I did not write.
Steven,

I did not mean to imply anything, that is what I thought you meant in your post. You never stated that you believe God withdrew Himself from warring nations after the time of Christ. That was a misunderstanding on my part, I am sure. My comments referring to you were about war only.

So be clear, you don't believe that God has any part in creating calamity now?

blessings and apologies

[Scott Hilton]

Hans

That's interesting. Why is that so? The OT dealt with a nation, a people. The NT deals with a kingdom that goes way beyond the old nation of Israel and in fact, is quite a different reality. I'm sure you'll agree. So why would it be so unlikely that God deals differently with it? Can you explain?
Well, why did God create war in the Old Testament? It displayed His power and glory within His nation, right? So why would He not do the same thing and expect the same thing from His nation now?

Don't get me wrong, not that I believe He wants His nation fighting the wars, but that He wants His nation being Christ during the times of wars as a witness to His power and glory. We are the ones who should be acting in love to any nation in war as an example of His sacrifice and love to us. I think God knows His nation pretty well and unfortuneately, sometimes it takes calamity in others to make our hearts go into action.

As I read it, this does not make sense. Repentance only comes if you understand what you need to repent of. Otherwise we end up like falsely accused victims of torturers, who'll confess to anything in order to have the torture stop. God isn't a torturer, judging us sheerly because of His holiness and leaving us in the dark as to the why. That is not an image of God I can live with.
Did not Job go through this very thing? I am sure you wouldn't say God acted unjustly in this case, right? Do we not all agree that sometimes God has to allow (or cause) calamity in order for us to realize the need for Him? How many people in jail, didn't feel they deserved to be there at first, but then were brought to repentance and life? Does the Holy Spirit only work in good circumstances?

[Hans Deventer]

Hey wait a minute. There is an implication that has been made about me that is not true.

My apologies, Steven. And thanks for the clarification.

[Scott Hilton]

My apologies, Steven. And thanks for the clarification.
The joys of message boarding, eh? :basic04

[Hans Deventer]

Well, why did God create war in the Old Testament? It displayed His power and glory within His nation, right? So why would He not do the same thing and expect the same thing from His nation now?

Because there is no longer a nation He deals with solely.

Did not Job go through this very thing? I am sure you wouldn't say God acted unjustly in this case, right?

Job said He did. And from his point of view, he was right. From God's too, for Job had done nothing that warranted such a treatment by God. This is a bad example, Scott. Job was righteous, there is no hint initially of anything God wanted to teach him. That Job did learn something through the process, was not because he was wrong and needed correction in the first place.
This cannot be compared to sending the Babylonians to Judah in order to execute God's judgement. It's simply not comparable.

Do we not all agree that sometimes God has to allow (or cause) calamity in order for us to realize the need for Him?

I dare not say that, unless God makes that clear to me. I'm not going to comfort people by saying that yes, they got cancer but it is all in order to realise their need for Him.

How many people in jail, didn't feel they deserved to be there at first, but then were brought to repentance and life?

But they still knew what they were in for.

Does the Holy Spirit only work in good circumstances?

No, certainly not. But that says nothing about who causes those circumstances.

[Scott Hilton]

Because there is no longer a nation He deals with solely.
Hmm, not sure if I agree with this. I think He has always dealt with all people in hopes of faith in Him. We see examples of non-jews with faith in the O.T., so that tells me He was not dealing soley with His nation then either. Do we Wesleyans not believe that His offer of grace has always been to all? I think His goal has always been to draw all into His nation.

Job said He did. And from his point of view, he was right. From God's too, for Job had done nothing that warranted such a treatment by God. This is a bad example, Scott. Job was righteous, there is no hint initially of anything God wanted to teach him. That Job did learn something through the process, was not because he was wrong and needed correction in the first place.
This cannot be compared to sending the Babylonians to Judah in order to execute God's judgement. It's simply not comparable.
I think it is comparable on an individual basis. Job was righteous and that is exactly my point. We don't always know or understand the calamity we are going through and that is because the purpose of the calamity is found in the creator and not our understanding of the situation. Job was righteous, God allowed the calamity to befall him. Job's situation has been used to draw others to God's grace.

I dare not say that, unless God makes that clear to me. I'm not going to comfort people by saying that yes, they got cancer but it is all in order to realise their need for Him.
I said sometimes, not all times Hans. I think certain people respond to grace quicker and easier than others. Some (like me) need to go through much to see how much we need Him. I am also not saying He sends cancer to people, you will never see me say that. My uncle has just been, in the past week, given 6-18 months to live due to cancer. I don't believe the disease was given to him from God.

But they still knew what they were in for.
They knew what they have been charged with, that doesn't mean they accepted it. We are told in scripture that our conscience knows the laws of Gods, even without hearing His word. So I am not sure we can say, we just don't know we are guilty of something.

By the way Hans, I wanted to thank you for your grace and conversation on this. It's really not something I have a set belief and/or understanding on at this point. I am really working through it and you have helped me a great deal. Its an honor to have people like you to bounce thoughts and questions off of.

blessings

[Crystal Lutton]

I am uncomfortable with Hebrews 12 playing a role in this discussion. Isaiah making a bold statement to enemies of the Lord is hardly the same as the encouragement found in Hebrews 12 for the children of God suffering through hardship and the admonishment that if they could endure harsh earthly fathers without questioning their love they should not assume God has rejected them because they are suffering--especially when they have not suffered unto death on the cross the way Jesus himself did--the Son in whom God is well pleased. Encouragement of God's faithfulness in the face of suffering and the warning of impending suffering at God's hands is hardly the same thing.

As for the passage from Isaiah--God is the creator of everything. For one thing to exist the opposite must be a reality and while God isn't evil and doesn't do evil and we are told point blank in Scripture that God never tempts us, I do not believe it is difficult to accept that he created all things. Because he is the creator he understands these things, knows to caution us and knows how to keep us from those things that are not good for us, and is able to control all things.

If we try to argue that God didn't create evil we are left in a quandry--who else has the power to create like Him? Do we give Satan equal power to God because he chooses to operate in the evil? Do we take the credit for ourselves because Adam chose to sin--did that create evil? That can't be because the fruit he ate was from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil--showing that it already existed. Perhaps "evil" itself is not the problem--perhaps evil has been given too much power in our modern minds. Perhaps in focusing so much on evil we have gotten more of it. If we put it back into the perspective that Isaiah is presenting and it is simply another thing created by God then we need only to trust him to manage it and follow His guidelines for not walking in it.

[Steven Martinez]

I am uncomfortable with Hebrews 12 playing a role in this discussion. Isaiah making a bold statement to enemies of the Lord is hardly the same as the encouragement found in Hebrews 12 for the children of God suffering through hardship and the admonishment that if they could endure harsh earthly fathers without questioning their love they should not assume God has rejected them because they are suffering--especially when they have not suffered unto death on the cross the way Jesus himself did--the Son in whom God is well pleased. Encouragement of God's faithfulness in the face of suffering and the warning of impending suffering at God's hands is hardly the same thing.

Actually, I think it works well with the arguement in which it was given in: that perspective matters. However, you are right in seeing that they are refering to two different aspects. I never intentioned it to be a proof text to Isa 45. This is why I placed it in a paragraph by itself in an arguement over theological perspective. Which is one of the necesary arguements we must deal with in the issue of theodocy which is what this discusion is about.

At the same time, Hebrews 12 reminds us that God disciplines His children and we are given a Scriptural reference that God scorges every son He has. The question is then how does God do this and what does it look like? Is it physical pain or sufferings? Again, it is a matter of perspective.

[Steven Martinez]

Steven,

I did not mean to imply anything, that is what I thought you meant in your post. You never stated that you believe God withdrew Himself from warring nations after the time of Christ. That was a misunderstanding on my part, I am sure. My comments referring to you were about war only.

So be clear, you don't believe that God has any part in creating calamity now?

blessings and apologies

First, no problem!

Second, this issue as it stands now is that you must define what calimity is. For example, is calimity a moral evil? Does calimity always equal a negative?
The reason for this is because we can spend all week debating this with never settling on a definition of the issue in question.
IMHO the word calimity does not always mean evil in the way that I would say that sin is evil. The NIV uses the word disaster. Again, this word does not necesarrily mean evil to me. For example if I lose my wallet it is a small disaster in my life. But it is not the same as if my mother died. Yet, both of these events would lead me to question what is valuable to me and I might become a better person by going through the process. Now, if God initated the missing wallet then it would be an awesome parrable for my life. However, if God were to strike down my mother in vengence of my sin, then the God revealed in Scripture would be a lie.
I guess to me the best Scriptural reference would be Jonah. One could argue that God caused some calimity in Jonah's life even though Jonah was deserving of it. At the same time God used Jonah to spare the calimity of 120,000 people and some cattle. Jonah would have loved to see the Assyrian capital wiped off the face of the earth and yet God desired to save them. The desire to save Jonah's enemies caused Jonah great calimity yet it was not evil, it was good because it revealed to Jonah a closer relationship with his God and deeper knowledge of the God who Saves.

[Scott Hilton]

Steven,

When I saw the word calamity I took it to mean circumstance and not moral evil. When I say circumstance, I mean instances like war, poverty, heartache, etc. I am not sure whether to put what we consider natural disasters in there or not. It seems very hard to me to remove it, because God is the creator of all including our weather. However, I also find it hard to put in there because from the 6 foot view of things (human view), it seems wrong to attribute that to God.

I hope at least my conflict of thought is on good basis? I mainly want right thinking about God in these things, which is why I was asking in the first place.

blessings

[Steven Martinez]

I hope at least my conflict of thought is on good basis? I mainly want right thinking about God in these things, which is why I was asking in the first place.

I am glad you asked the question. We need to ask these questions. Many believers are convinced that God causes pain in our lives in order to force us to submit to Him while others believe that God will protect the faithful to the point that they will never suffer. It seems that the truth lies on neither of those extremes.
I think it is also important that when we study theodocy that we let our other sources of revelation (Reason, Tradition, and Experience) help shape our understanding of God. When I look at all sides, I see a God who is destroyer of sin. Yet, He destroys sin with love. If we live in the influence of sin then we will view God as a destructive enemy who brings disaster or calimity.
To me, I see God's love and mercy when His people mobilize to comfort those who do face calimity. I think of the billions of dollars that are raised or the thousands of hours volunteered. At the same time it seems that when disaster strikes there is always someone who relates that how much worse the disaster could be or how many more people could die etc. For example God will be blamed for the 130,000 people who have died in the cyclone in Myanmar but very few will thank God for the millions who will be saved by the relief efforts.

[Hans Deventer]

Hmm, not sure if I agree with this. I think He has always dealt with all people in hopes of faith in Him. We see examples of non-jews with faith in the O.T., so that tells me He was not dealing soley with His nation then either. Do we Wesleyans not believe that His offer of grace has always been to all? I think His goal has always been to draw all into His nation.

Well, if you believe He does, let's go ahead. What happened say after AD 100 where God used one nation to punish another and to bring it back to Him? Let's get down to the practical level. I don't see it.

And I don't think God made Naaman sick in order to convert him. I do believe He used the girl (who, I think is the true hero of the story) to speak to him.
Yes, we Wesleyans believe that the offer of grace has been to all. Israel should have been a blessing to all of the earth. We also know, in the OT, they weren't. Which is one reason why He dealt with them the way He did.
But then came Jesus, which changed everything. After AD 70 (or AD 135) there was no Jewish nation to send an army to anymore until 1948. Nor were there Christians to send an army to. Kind of like trying to fight Al Queda. You can't send an army to them, they are everywhere. It takes a different kind of warfare.

I think it is comparable on an individual basis. Job was righteous and that is exactly my point. We don't always know or understand the calamity we are going through and that is because the purpose of the calamity is found in the creator and not our understanding of the situation. Job was righteous, God allowed the calamity to befall him. Job's situation has been used to draw others to God's grace.

That's quite a statement. In the book, God refuses to answer Job's questions and in a way, reveals Himself, which ultimately is enough for Job. That is really the only message I get from the book: knowing God, being in a relation to Him, exceeds the questions we have. I would not dare to say that God is justified in what He did by turning Job into some kind of example where others can learn from. Unless of course the book is a parable. If you subscribe to that line of thinking, we're getting closer.

I said sometimes, not all times Hans. I think certain people respond to grace quicker and easier than others. Some (like me) need to go through much to see how much we need Him. I am also not saying He sends cancer to people, you will never see me say that. My uncle has just been, in the past week, given 6-18 months to live due to cancer. I don't believe the disease was given to him from God.

Thank you. Neither do I. I think we're closer than might it look. We both believe God can act using calamities. I'm merely saying He doesn't seem to do that a lot anymore. I don't see it. I see my life as learning to trust God in a world where stuff happens that I do not understand and where I don't see His hand in. Jesus shared that existential human predicament at the cross: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"
But He could in the end say, "Into your hands I commit my spirit" (As a side note, I just read Psalm 31 where these words are found. Awesome.)

And the story of Jesus, as I read it, is that if we trust in God like He did, we will indeed be saved. If not from calamities, then through calamities, from where ever they come.

By the way Hans, I wanted to thank you for your grace and conversation on this. It's really not something I have a set belief and/or understanding on at this point. I am really working through it and you have helped me a great deal. Its an honor to have people like you to bounce thoughts and questions off of.

You're very welcome! It helps me too!

[Crystal Lutton]

Actually, since we have all of Scripture and Israel was in tact and the people through whom Messiah came (two of the big things they were purposed and chosen to do) I'd have to say they have been a blessing to the entire world. They were fallible as a nation and often fell short of God's standard (as do we all which is why we need Messiah) but God has honored his promises to them and they are still around all these generations later going strong.

At the same time, Hebrews 12 reminds us that God disciplines His children and we are given a Scriptural reference that God scorges every son He has. The question is then how does God do this and what does it look like? Is it physical pain or sufferings? Again, it is a matter of perspective.possibly too far OT for this discussion but there is debate about whether "scourges" is actually in that passage. It's not in the Aramaic verses, it's not in the original passage being quoted . . . I find this a very interesting passage since it's the *only* NT passage people point to for the "angry God" image of God. And I just don't see it. I would hesitate to use this one verse as a foundational argument for any image of God.

And the story of Jesus, as I read it, is that if we trust in God like He did, we will indeed be saved. If not from calamities, then through calamities, from where ever they come.According to Paul it's those who have trusted in Messiah from the beginning to the end of time who are saved--if not from calamities then through them.

I do agree with an idea that was presented earlier that whether something is a calamity is often our perspective--God's perspective is the one that actually defines it.