Plenty of room in heaven??

[Marsha Lynn]

This op-ed piece (http://caglecartoons.com/column.asp?columnID={44146F3E-2FAF-4E68-B174-53DE26866533}) was in our newspaper this week. It alerts readers to the fact that Barack Obama doesn't subscribe to the basic tenets of Christianity. The authors write:

A basic tenet of Christianity is that profession of faith in Jesus Christ is necessary to gain the reward of eternal life in heaven. Christians do not believe the door of heaven is open to every “kind” and “generous person.” Christians do not believe that adherence to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or other religions opens the door to eternal life in heaven with God. That is why Christians send missionaries seeking the conversion of these religions’ practitioners to Christian beliefs.

There's a comment that "Obama has repeatedly said belief in Jesus is only one of many paths to salvation."

One of the underlying proofs of this heresy is that "Obama said that his mother was in heaven despite her atheism and outright rejection of Christ. While speaking at a town hall forum in North Carolina on March 26, 2008 he said his late mother was 'not a believer.' He continued, 'But she was the kindest, most decent, generous person that I have ever known,' Obama said. 'I'm sure she is in heaven, even though she may not have subscribed to everything that I subscribe to.'"

From this we know the truth that no one will make it into heaven unless they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We also know that those who would allow any exceptions to that truth are not real Christians and won't make it into heaven. That leaves the pearly gates open only to those who accept Jesus as Christ and believe that everyone who doesn't do so will burn in hell.

I'm a little distressed by this position. How many Christians have I heard at funeral homes speak the comforting words: "Well, at least you know that your loved one is in a better place" without regard to any Christian witness on the part of the deceased? I presume that all of those people, like Obama, are guilty of heresy and deny the basic tenets of Christianity. I'm thinking that banning all who say such things might substantially thin out the population in that blessed place. How many genuine Christians do I know by those standards?

I hope John McCain's mother was a Christian. Otherwise, he might have to submit to the same test of being required to prove his belief in the "basic tenets of Christianity" by confirming that his mother is now being subjected to the fires of hell. Because that's what true Christians say when their loved ones die without a clear Christian witness.

I'm a little comforted by two verses:

Matthew 21:31 reads: Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." (He was speaking to the Pharisees at the time.) Tax collectors and prostitutes in the kingdom?! Doesn't Jesus know the basic tenets of Christianity? How are people who flaunt the ten commandments entering the kingdom at all, let alone ahead of the religious leaders?

A little later, in Matthew 23:13, Jesus told the Pharisees: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

As one who is fully committed to a local manifestation of Christianity and, thus, in no small danger of slipping into the mindset of the Pharisees, I'm thinking that I probably need to be more intentional about casting my lot in with the "tax collectors and prostitutes" as far as finding the path to heaven and to make sure that I'm opening doors for people rather than closing them.

Sometimes I'm more than a little sympathetic when people look at Christians and opine that if that is who will populate heaven, they might not want to go there.

Marsha

[Gina Stevenson]

"Obama said that his mother was in heaven despite her atheism and outright rejection of Christ. While speaking at a town hall forum in North Carolina on March 26, 2008 he said his late mother was 'not a believer.' He continued, 'But she was the kindest, most decent, generous person that I have ever known,' Obama said. 'I'm sure she is in heaven, even though she may not have subscribed to everything that I subscribe to.'"

Marsha, this quote about what Obama allegedly said ... or did say ... is not so different (as you seemed to mention) from things I've heard from (gasp!) Christians in such a situation, also. It's a delicate subject matter ... haven't heard anyone in a funeral home, in fact, in spite of how the deceased may have lived, suggest that they're now "burning."

Glad we can leave that up to the Lord ... and who knows how many, who've heard the gospel on earth, yet refused to accept it when feeling well, have had the Lord (mercifully) bring it to their mind as they're "on their way out," giving them a chance to repent in different circumstances ... knowing it might be their last chance ... and we never know about it, b/c they're never again conscious enough to inform us of this "last ditch effort" by the Lord??

But, I can understand why Obama might say something like that ... definitely. And who knows but what he might just be telling the truth about his mother?

[Jon Twitchell]

I try, very hard, to never make reference to "where a person is" during a funeral. I don't care if you were "Nancy Nazarene" or "Lucius Malfoy," I really don't know the state of your heart enough to proclaim where you are.

Besides, those claims have little to do with what I believe I'm supposed to do at a funeral. In planning I service, I intend to: a) honor the memory of the person, b) provide comfort for the family through God's Word, c) give thanks to God for the gift of life, d) share the Christian hope of resurrection which comes from Jesus' victory over death and the grave, and e) inspire the living to follow God more closely.

[Scott Hilton]

I try, very hard, to never make reference to "where a person is" during a funeral. I don't care if you were "Nancy Nazarene" or "Lucius Malfoy," I really don't know the state of your heart enough to proclaim where you are.


Jon,

You have achieved something I never thought I would see. You have managed to have Nancy Nazarene and Lucius Malfoy in the same sentence and have it make sense, lol.

[Hans Deventer]

This op-ed piece was in our newspaper this week. It alerts readers to the fact that Barack Obama doesn't subscribe to the basic tenets of Christianity. The authors write:

A basic tenet of Christianity is that profession of faith in Jesus Christ is necessary to gain the reward of eternal life in heaven. Christians do not believe the door of heaven is open to every “kind” and “generous person.” Christians do not believe that adherence to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or other religions opens the door to eternal life in heaven with God. That is why Christians send missionaries seeking the conversion of these religions’ practitioners to Christian beliefs.
There's a comment that

"Obama has repeatedly said belief in Jesus is only one of many paths to salvation."
One of the underlying proofs of this heresy is that

"Obama said that his mother was in heaven despite her atheism and outright rejection of Christ. While speaking at a town hall forum in North Carolina on March 26, 2008 he said his late mother was 'not a believer.' He continued, 'But she was the kindest, most decent, generous person that I have ever known,' Obama said. 'I'm sure she is in heaven, even though she may not have subscribed to everything that I subscribe to.'"

Jesus said:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I don't read a word about confessions at THE place where He speaks about what is the distinguishing issue between heaven and hell at the last judgement. I read a lot about living a certain kind of life. I guess Jesus is a heretic too.

Reminds me of a "funny" story. A Jew, a Muslim and an evangelical protestant get to heaven. Before they can enter, they have to talk to Jesus. The Jew goes first. After a couple of hours, he returns to the others, shaking his head." I can't understand how I could have been so wrong regarding Him", he said.
Then the Muslim went in. He also gets to talk with Jesus for a couple of hours as well and returns in the same way, totally amazed at his own mistakes.
Then the protestant goes in. Hours pass by, a day passes by. Then, at last, after 3 days, Jesus comes out, shaking His head. "I don't understand how I could have been so wrong", he says.

[Barbara Moulton]

As a chaplain, I am often with families when their loved one is at the end of life. I am often asked to do funerals for people who had no connection to a church and no expression of Christian faith.

My feeling is always that I can trust God to get it right. He knows each individual heart far better than I do.

So I don't need to stand and wax eloquent about how the person is singing with the angels nor speculate as to where they are at as some sort of cautionary message. I usually use the service to celebrate the life of that person as someone who was loved and valued by God and to extend God's comfort to the family.

[Marsha Lynn]

I try, very hard, to never make reference to "where a person is" during a funeral. I don't care if you were "Nancy Nazarene" or "Lucius Malfoy," I really don't know the state of your heart enough to proclaim where you are.

Jon (and Barbara), I appreciate your discretion in speaking words of comfort to mourners. I suspect that many professionals follow those same guidelines. Still, I wonder if the people who wrote this column judge the orthodoxy of all Christians by how they speak about their deceased loved ones or if such judgment is reserved for Democratic presidential candidates. To jump from a wishy-washy view of judgment in such a setting to denying "the basic tenets of Christianity" seems a big leap to me.

I also don't speculate about either the immediate or ultimate destination of the deceased, so I'm okay to run for President in that regard. However, I still don't measure up to orthodox Christianity by the standards presented in the column. I'm not nearly confident enough that those who diligently seek God and a life of love and gentleness will be damned to hell if they don't follow the exact narrow path defined by American evangelical Christianity.

I'm not sure you're going to make it in either, Jon. I'm guessing that these writers would suggest that knowing enough about "Lucius Malfoy" to use the name correctly in a sentence shows a lack of commitment to staying clear of the evil in this world. It's obvious that you are a secret admirer of the magic arts and have delved into books and/or movies extolling such arts. This serious problem will be fully exposed when you become the Democratic candidate for the U.S. President.

:p

Marsha

[Jon Twitchell]

I worked long and hard to figure out who I should use as a counterpart to "Nancy Nazarene." I'm glad it has been met with such [dis]approval! :D

[Glenda Harvey]

I don't recall in other elections a candidates religious beliefs being so pulled apart and scrutinized. ( Kennedy's being Catholic was a big deal at the time but while I was around I was too young to remember much about it)

[John Kennedy]

I well remember the '60 election. You heard a lot about the separation of church and state from the same kinds of people who now totally disaow the concept. I know of a Nazarene DS who sent a letter, on district stationery, to all pastors urging them to get out the vote against Kennedy. You had more ex -priests than you could shake a stick at, speaking in Protestant churches about the evils of Catholicism. When Kennedy spoke to the Baptist preachers in Houston the concensus among many Protestants, including most of the Nazarenes I knew, was that he was simply lying - it was seen as a Catholic plot to take over the US.

The upshot was that when Kennedy moved into the White House and the Pope stayed in the Vatican, the issue went away and good 'God-fearing, right thinking Christian Americans' went back to dealing with real vital issues, like keeping flouride out of the drinking water.

The overwhelming majority of those who played the 'religion card' with JFK wouldn't have voted for him if he'd been on the Board of Deacons at the First Baptist Church of Dallas, Texas.

[John Kennedy]

Jon -

Fill me in. Nancy Nazarene I know well. Who the heck is Lucius Malfoy?

[Jon Twitchell]

Jon -

Fill me in. Nancy Nazarene I know well. Who the heck is Lucius Malfoy?

Eh... I don't know... but can you think of a more "evil-sounding" name????

:)


Seriously, he's one of the arch-villians in the Harry Potter series. I chose him in this context, because I was trying to think of an evil sounding name--and realized that the author did a great job creating a name that just dripped with lucifer-ness... :)

[Randy Wise]

This op-ed piece (http://caglecartoons.com/column.asp?columnID={44146F3E-2FAF-4E68-B174-53DE26866533}) was in our newspaper this week. It alerts readers to the fact that Barack Obama doesn't subscribe to the basic tenets of Christianity. The authors write:



There's a comment that

One of the underlying proofs of this heresy is that

From this we know the truth that no one will make it into heaven unless they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We also know that those who would allow any exceptions to that truth are not real Christians and won't make it into heaven. That leaves the pearly gates open only to those who accept Jesus as Christ and believe that everyone who doesn't do so will burn in hell.

I'm a little distressed by this position. How many Christians have I heard at funeral homes speak the comforting words: "Well, at least you know that your loved one is in a better place" without regard to any Christian witness on the part of the deceased? I presume that all of those people, like Obama, are guilty of heresy and deny the basic tenets of Christianity. I'm thinking that banning all who say such things might substantially thin out the population in that blessed place. How many genuine Christians do I know by those standards?

I hope John McCain's mother was a Christian. Otherwise, he might have to submit to the same test of being required to prove his belief in the "basic tenets of Christianity" by confirming that his mother is now being subjected to the fires of hell. Because that's what true Christians say when their loved ones die without a clear Christian witness.

I'm a little comforted by two verses:

Matthew 21:31 reads: Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." (He was speaking to the Pharisees at the time.) Tax collectors and prostitutes in the kingdom?! Doesn't Jesus know the basic tenets of Christianity? How are people who flaunt the ten commandments entering the kingdom at all, let alone ahead of the religious leaders?

A little later, in Matthew 23:13, Jesus told the Pharisees: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

As one who is fully committed to a local manifestation of Christianity and, thus, in no small danger of slipping into the mindset of the Pharisees, I'm thinking that I probably need to be more intentional about casting my lot in with the "tax collectors and prostitutes" as far as finding the path to heaven and to make sure that I'm opening doors for people rather than closing them.

Sometimes I'm more than a little sympathetic when people look at Christians and opine that if that is who will populate heaven, they might not want to go there.

Marsha

What did Jesus state about those that reject Him? Wasn't it that there guilt remains? People are condemned by their own sin. By rejecting Jesus they have rejected how God has chosen to remove sin. John testified that Jesus is the one that baptizes with the Holy Spirit. If people want that cleansing and baptizm they will need to go to Jesus. That is how God has chosen to forgive sin. I may do good works but that isn't atonement for sin.

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.

It wasn't liars who stated "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you [B]were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."


31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[k] gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him

[Paula Karr]

Marsha, you said: "I hope John McCain's mother was a Christian. Otherwise, he might have to submit to the same test of being required to prove his belief in the "basic tenets of Christianity" by confirming that his mother is now being subjected to the fires of hell (emphasis added). Because that's what true Christians say when their loved ones die without a clear Christian witness."

I'm on vacation right now, but popped in to check NazNet while waiting to leave for the airport to go home. Unless something has happened to her in the last 9 days, John McCain's mother is still alive. Old and feisty, and John is pointing to her as proof that he's not too old to be president.

Paula

[Billy Cox]

Matthew 21:31 reads: Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." (He was speaking to the Pharisees at the time.) Tax collectors and prostitutes in the kingdom?! Doesn't Jesus know the basic tenets of Christianity? How are people who flaunt the ten commandments entering the kingdom at all, let alone ahead of the religious leaders?

A little later, in Matthew 23:13, Jesus told the Pharisees: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

As one who is fully committed to a local manifestation of Christianity and, thus, in no small danger of slipping into the mindset of the Pharisees, I'm thinking that I probably need to be more intentional about casting my lot in with the "tax collectors and prostitutes" as far as finding the path to heaven and to make sure that I'm opening doors for people rather than closing them.


I think a great deal of harm and theological misery has arisen from a failure to distinguish 'heaven' and 'the kingdom of heaven'. You know, the whole thing about the way to heaven being narrow and only a few managing to find it has enabled the 'us four and no more' mindset for waaay too long...and like so many proponents of other self-serving doctrines, those preaching 'fewness' are always among the few.

I like to think of the kingdom of heaven as 'heaven in the here and now'.

[Randy Wise]

I think a great deal of harm and theological misery has arisen from a failure to distinguish 'heaven' and 'the kingdom of heaven'. You know, the whole thing about the way to heaven being narrow and only a few managing to find it has enabled the 'us four and no more' mindset for waaay too long...and like so many proponents of other self-serving doctrines, those preaching 'fewness' are always among the few.

That would be Jesus who preached the few vs the many. We just follow Him

I like to think of the kingdom of heaven as 'heaven in the here and now'.
Where is Abraham hiding then as it is written, "I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."?

Randy

[Thomas Oord]

Marsha and others,

I recently read an MSN report on Obama's faith convictions. This report fit well with Obama's statements about his faith in his Audacity of Hope book. I find little to nothing in these materials to think that he is a heretic -- his statement about his mother not withstanding.

When I read Obama's statements about his mother, I recall the distinction made by the man often named the most important theologian of the 20th century: Karl Barth. Barth distinguished between the Christian religion and Jesus Christ.

The distinction is not perfect, obviously, because most of what we know about Jesus comes through the Christian religion. Furthermore, there is no view of Jesus not already colored by our interpretations, biases, and worldviews.

But Barth's distinction between the Christian religion with it institutions, structures, and beliefs and Jesus Christ helps me reconcile the many biblical passages that suggest some people find a measure of salvation in this life and the next despite not accepting explicitly Jesus. (By the way, one passage not mentioned in the emails above is Romans 2:13-16.)

I like to say to my students that some of the greatest atheists in history were right in their refusal to believe in God. That is, the God in whom they could not believe is also a God in whom I cannot believe. The picture or view of God they were presented is so much different from the God in whom I believe. I too reject the picture of God offered them.

My hunch is that Obama's mother also rejected a view of Christianity and God that I would find unappealing. Obama's testimony is the basis for my hunch. But her kindness, compassion, and sense of justice suggest that she implicitly affirmed something like what I want to affirm explicitly.

I wish she would have been introduced to the image of God I find believable. Perhaps she would have counted herself among the faith-full. But I have no reason to object to Obama's hope that she enjoys a heavenly life of joy subsequent to her bodily death.

Tom

[BobHunt]

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." It would seem to me that this means any other way that men seek to gain Heaven would be a false one. We know that unless a person "is born again" there is no hopes of making it to the city.
As much as Id like to say something else, just being a good person, doing good works to look pious wont guarantee our entrance through the pearly gates.
Another place it says "The kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force." To me that means we have to do all we can, as hard as we can, to make sure we are ready for the last trumpet. We cant waltz into Heaven, we have to work at it, and combine this work with a personal relationship with Jesus.
I think the post by Hans, comes in right here, after we have this relationship...

[Marsha Lynn]

I wish she would have been introduced to the image of God I find believable. Perhaps she would have counted herself among the faith-full. But I have no reason to object to Obama's hope that she enjoys a heavenly life of joy subsequent to her bodily death.

Thanks, Tom. The Romans passage means a lot to me. I find that a lot of people are afraid to believe that anyone could somehow find their way to God in spite of a flawed picture of Jesus Christ that makes them reject the Christian religion. They say that if embracing Jesus is not necessary, why do we send missionaries? My response is that people lost in the woods may eventually find their way out, but how uncaring and selfish we would be to not share the map and compass we have been given with those trying to find their way.

I appreciate your insights.

Marsha

[Thomas Oord]

Thanks, Marsha.

I like what you say about missions. I say something like that too.

I add that we Wesleyans emphasize the biblical notion that Jesus gives abundant life here on earth. While those who may never have heard the good news of Jesus may nonetheless find a measure of salvation if they respond appropriately to the law written on their hearts, I'm convinced that explicit preaching and teaching of Jesus' love and good news will make possible an experience of abundant life here and now that they would not otherwise have known had no missionaries preached and lived the Christian good news. (Whew! That was a long sentence!) So missions remains vitally important.

Tom

[Thomas Oord]

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." It would seem to me that this means any other way that men seek to gain Heaven would be a false one. We know that unless a person "is born again" there is no hopes of making it to the city.
As much as Id like to say something else, just being a good person, doing good works to look pious wont guarantee our entrance through the pearly gates.
Another place it says "The kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force." To me that means we have to do all we can, as hard as we can, to make sure we are ready for the last trumpet. We cant waltz into Heaven, we have to work at it, and combine this work with a personal relationship with Jesus.
I think the post by Hans, comes in right here, after we have this relationship...

Bob,

Thanks for your post. The John passage about Jesus being the Way, Truth and Life is so meaningful to me. I appreciate your bringing it up.

My own understanding of this passage, combined with other passages that have been noted on this thread, is that any salvation that we creatures experience is based squarely upon God's acting to save us. No matter what the exact means, methods, words, or experiences we have, salvation comes from God.

I interpret the Jesus is the Way passage in terms of the Church's proclamation and the apparent biblical inference that Jesus is fully human and fully divine. In terms of Jesus' humanness, the way of salvation that Jesus showed was first and foremost the way of love. To the extent that any human loves -- no matter that person's belief system -- that person finds salvation. That seems to be the point of many parables and many "morals of the story" to Jesus encounters with religious teachers of his day. Beliefs are important, but love trumps all.

In terms of Jesus' divinity, the way of salvation found in Jesus is possible because only God saves. As divine, Jesus is the source of salvation wherever it occurs (see my comments in the second paragraph above.) Jesus is the way, because God alone saves.

Being born again, as I understand it, involves first a divine act on our behalf and then our positive response. Our response and many, many following are positive insofar as they are ultimately based in love.

I know that all of this can sound condescending and superior to the ears of Buddhists, Muslims, and other religious and nonreligious friends. I don't want to come across as a know-it-all.

But I still believe the salvation that any of these nonChristians might enjoy is possible only through Jesus, the God-Man, who is the way, the truth and the life. And I believe this about my nonChristian friends this even if they think the salvation they enjoy actually comes from other people or ideas. Any love, truth, or beauty found in them or their religion is, in my opinion, grounded ultimately in the God best revealed in Jesus.

I try to combine boldness with humility on this question. On the one hand, I want to be humble about my claims. I haven't got it all figured out. I see through a glass darkly. And I may just be dead wrong. I must live by faith.

But on the other hand, I want to be bold about my belief that salvation comes through Christ. It fits with my experience and what I've observed in others. It makes sense to me rationally. It seems to be a dominant theme in the Bible.

Finding the right balance between boldness and humility is one of my evangelistic goals in this religiously plural age. In such an age, I see Jesus at work even in people and places that do not affirm the name of Jesus.

Well, I've gone to preaching again. Sorry...

Tom

[Marsha Lynn]

Thanks, Marsha.

I like what you say about missions. I say something like that too.

I add that we Wesleyans emphasize the biblical notion that Jesus gives abundant life here on earth. While those who may never have heard the good news of Jesus may nonetheless find a measure of salvation if the respond appropriately to the law written on their hearts, I'm convinced that explicit preaching and teaching of Jesus' love and good news will make possible an experience of abundant life here and now that they would not otherwise have known had no missionaries preached and lived the Christian good news. (Whew! That was a long sentence!) So missions remains vitally important.

Tom

Absolutely! Amen.

(So do people actually listen when you say such things? I find myself saying them over and over again to the same people without seeming to make much of a dent.)

[Thomas Oord]

Absolutely! Amen.

(So do people actually listen when you say such things? I find myself saying them over and over again to the same people without seeming to make much of a dent.)

Great parenthetical question, Marsha!

If I had a nickel for every time someone has misunderstood me when I've said something like this or explained the implications of the Wesleyan notion of prevenient grace, I'd have a nice collection of nickels!

Because this message is so liberating for some of those who hear it, however, I continue to proclaim it even knowing some others will misunderstand.

In a religously plural age, so many of my students think they must choose between...

1. Christianity is the only correct belief system and all those not on the Christian team have no salvation

or

2. Christianity is one religion among others, no better, no worse, but one path to salvation.

Or my students think they have to choose between affirming one of these two options...

1. Only those who say the Jesus prayer to accept him into their hearts can find salvation

or

2. It doesn't really matter if you commit yourself entirely to following Jesus and becoming identified with the Church.

I proclaim that there exist number 3 options to the two sets above. Our message of salvation in Jesus -- which I've tried to explain my lengthy post to Bob -- is a message that sounds hopeful and promising to students in this age. It is truly good news. And I like to think the third option captures the heart of scripture -- but I'll let each person be the judge of that.

So...I keep proclaiming this. It encourages me to hear that you are proclaiming this too!

Tom

[Hans Deventer]

I think the post by Hans, comes in right here, after we have this relationship...

Bob, how can one honestly say to have a relationship with Jesus when one doesn't act like Him?
Or are you saying one can have a relationship with Jesus and still go to hell? Your interpretation creates a lot problems for me.

As I read Matthew 25:31-46, it seems to me that this is how faith in Jesus is defined. I don't think Jesus is impressed by confessions, sinner's prayers and statements of belief too much. Or at all. He seeks the real thing.

[Marsha Lynn]

Thanks again, Tom. The way you lay out the choices is greatly beneficial to me. The two-choice issue is what lay behind this post (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?p=202501#poststop). Those concerned that not enough Christians gave the "correct" answer assumed that the only other choice was the answer that was obviously wrong. I'm not sure they will hear my words any more clearly if I point out that there is a third choice, but it will give me more words to pick from when I'm doing the careful picking of them.

;)

Marsha

Great parenthetical question, Marsha!

If I had a nickel for every time someone has misunderstood me when I've said something like this or explained the implications of the Wesleyan notion of prevenient grace, I'd have a nice collection of nickels!

Because this message is so liberating for some of those who hear it, however, I continue to proclaim it even knowing some others will misunderstand.

In a religously plural age, so many of my students think they must choose between...

1. Christianity is the only correct belief system and all those not on the Christian team have no salvation

or

2. Christianity is one religion among others, no better, no worse, but one path to salvation.

Or my students think they have to choose between affirming one of these two options...

1. Only those who say the Jesus prayer to accept him into their hearts can find salvation

or

2. It doesn't really matter if you commit yourself entirely to following Jesus and becoming identified with the Church.

I proclaim that there exist number 3 options to the two sets above. Our message of salvation in Jesus -- which I've tried to explain my lengthy post to Bob -- is a message that sounds hopeful and promising to students in this age. It is truly good news. And I like to think the third option captures the heart of scripture -- but I'll let each person be the judge of that.

So...I keep proclaiming this. It encourages me to hear that you are proclaiming this too!

Tom

[Billy Cox]

In a religously plural age, so many of my students think they must choose between...

1. Christianity is the only correct belief system and all those not on the Christian team have no salvation

or

2. Christianity is one religion among others, no better, no worse, but one path to salvation.

...

I proclaim that there exist number 3 options to the two sets above. Our message of salvation in Jesus -- which I've tried to explain my lengthy post to Bob -- is a message that sounds hopeful and promising to students in this age. It is truly good news. And I like to think the third option captures the heart of scripture -- but I'll let each person be the judge of that.



Yes, there has to be a via media to those extremes.

I believe that there is one way to the Father through the Son, but that there are many ways to the Son. Christianity is closely correlated to the kingdom of God, but it is not one and the same.

I completely understand the blank look that follows whenever I suggest that salvation is by faith (as in Romans 4) and not based on learning the proper set of factoids about Jesus.

[Billy Cox]

Yes, there has to be a via media to those extremes.

I believe that there is one way to the Father through the Son, but that there are many ways to the Son. Christianity is closely correlated to the kingdom of God, but it is not one and the same.

I completely understand the blank look that follows whenever I suggest that salvation is by faith (as in Romans 4) and not based on learning the proper set of factoids about Jesus.

I also wonder at times whether we practice a de facto 'salvation by catechism'.

[BobHunt]

Hans, Im not sure that I follow you, I do know we are to confess our sins to the Lord, and I do know that not every one who calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven...there are not only a lot of false prophets but a lot of false followers, (really not followers) who say they are. Maybe thats why they really dont act like Jesus. Sorry, I was a little confusing there.

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, Im not sure that I follow you, I do know we are to confess our sins to the Lord, and I do know that not every one who calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven...there are not only a lot of false prophets but a lot of false followers, (really not followers) who say they are. Maybe thats why they really dont act like Jesus.

Agreed, Bob. But the question is of course, does it also work the other way around? What about those that do act like Jesus, yet do not call Him Lord (if only for the simple reason that they never heard about Him, or had Him badly represented to them)?

There is no doubt that no one will be saved but by the grace of God, as shown to us in Jesus Christ. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The question however remains, is that grace limited to only those who have heard the gospel properly and believed it? And will the rest of this world's population automaticly because they didn't believe in what they never heard or heard badly, be thrown into everlasting torment?

I have some problems with that view.

So I think Jesus' about the judgement He will give, do not presuppose a relationship with Him, at least not in the way we would usually define it (with formal belief statements and all).

[Ramesh Deosarran]

There is no doubt that no one will be saved but by the grace of God, as shown to us in Jesus Christ. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The question however remains, is that grace limited to only those who have heard the gospel properly and believed it? And will the rest of this world's population automaticly because they didn't believe in what they never heard or heard badly, be thrown into everlasting torment?

I have some problems with that view.


My question then: Does God justify a person without regeneration?

[Hans Deventer]

My question then: Does God justify a person without regeneration?

After you, Ramesh. My question was first ;)

[Ramesh Deosarran]

After you, Ramesh. My question was first ;)


Nice try Hans! ;) However, the answer to my question will clarify the theological position of your question.

[Marsha Lynn]

My question then: Does God justify a person without regeneration?

Were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regenerated? Job? Enoch? Noah? Cornelius? Mary? Joseph? Simeon? Anna? John the Baptist?

I'm not sure I understand what is behind your question, but any answer has to take into account those who have served/worshiped/revered God and been accepted by Him apart from acquaintance with Jesus Christ through all of history.

In Abraham's case, Paul reminds us over and over that it was his faith and trust in God that justified him. How does regeneration mesh with developing faith?

Marsha

[Randy Wise]

But the question is of course, does it also work the other way around? What about those that do act like Jesus, yet do not call Him Lord (if only for the simple reason that they never heard about Him, or had Him badly represented to them)?


I don't know what all the people of the earth think about Jesus, but who He is taught to be is generally well understood in the US. If there is surprise it is that what Jesus taught applies to all people. If there is some offense then I would point out the need to look at the whole gospel message, which does provide for the forgiveness of sin and a place in Gods family and eternal life. I present Jesus and what he taught and recommend people seek Him, (not religion), and a relationship with God on His terms. God also set those terms in the covenant He made with Abraham, which also was introduced with blood. ( Abraham believed God)

As far as those who claim to know God Jesus stated those that listen to the Father come to Him and He would raise them up on the last day as that is Gods will.

If there is such a person who has never heard about Jesus I believe they will come before Jesus and He will make a judgment concerning them and nothing is hidden from Jesus.

I do believe there is plenty of room in heaven and also a great multitude of believers despite the ratio given by Jesus -narrow vs wide road.

Randy

[Hans Deventer]

Nice try Hans! ;) However, the answer to my question will clarify the theological position of your question.

Sure. But since I think it leads us on the wrong track, I'm not going there unless we agree on what will happen to the millions throughout history that never heard of Christ. (I'm not talking about the USA, Randy. With the exception of the Native Americans that lived there before the white people came). Once we got that cleared, we'll also be a lot clearer on the meaning of regeneration.

So I still believe it should be approached the other way around. If my theology throws people into hell for not having believed the message they never heard, I'm not a Wesleyan but a Calvinist and a fanatical one at that.

[Hans Deventer]

If there is such a person who has never heard about Jesus I believe they will come before Jesus and He will make a judgment concerning them and nothing is hidden from Jesus.

I agree, but one thing about the "if": throughout history, there have been millions who have never heard of Him.

[Jon Twitchell]

For a moment, I thought I was witnessing an online rabbi convention... what with all the use of questions to respond to questions...

:D

[Randy Wise]

I agree, but one thing about the "if": throughout history, there have been millions who have never heard of Him.

Then the Lord made a judgment concerning those people, but I deal with the living here and now.

Randy

[Jamie Wayne]

Justification, regeneration, and adoption are ways of viewing the same thing, I believe, but if we get caught up in the legal, juridical view of justification at the expense of regeneration and/or adoption, which has often been the case, then we wind up pitting justification against regeneration and adoption, which I think is quite misguided.

For too long, I think, salvation has been viewed only (only mostly) through the lens of justification, whether imputed or imparted, at the expense of regeneration and adoption, which are both equally Biblically Pauline views.

[BobHunt]

I dont have any scriptures for you, but I do see over and over the great faith of the people in the Old Testament. I think this faith was taken into account by God and could we say these people were made righteous because of it? Look at each person and their heart attitude towards God..and God sees more of the heart than we do.
As for those who have never heard the Name of Jesus, I feel that He is going to judge them and I think we will see some of these people in Heaven. I think there are a lot of people who have never heard the Name of Jesus, but they still hunger and dont even know what for. They have to realize there is a higher being who created them. The Scripture says Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.....does this ONLY include Christian people?

[Randy Wise]

Were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regenerated? Job? Enoch? Noah? Cornelius? Mary? Joseph? Simeon? Anna? John the Baptist?

I'm not sure I understand what is behind your question, but any answer has to take into account those who have served/worshiped/revered God and been accepted by Him apart from acquaintance with Jesus Christ through all of history.

In Abraham's case, Paul reminds us over and over that it was his faith and trust in God that justified him. How does regeneration mesh with developing faith?

Marsha

The thief on the cross had faith. Its lucky he acted on his faith and asked Jesus with reverence to remember him. He was forgiven because of the words Jesus spoke to him. The other fellow on the cross who mocked Jesus out of unbelief wasn't answered by Jesus.

The Holy Spirit wasn't given out until after Jesus had risen. That is how God writes the new covenant on our hearts. Paul wrote unless one had that Spirit they didn't belong to Jesus. Romans 8:9 Also 2 cor 13:5 strongly implies the same understanding. I am not to concerned with the past, but it would be my understanding that anyone not under the law of moses, which would be most of the ancient world though they did sin won't be judged according to the spirit only the flesh. 1 Peter 4:6 The new covenant message brings justice to all people curse and blessing. Matt 12:18

Randy

[Gina Stevenson]

Thanks, Tom. The Romans passage means a lot to me. I find that a lot of people are afraid to believe that anyone could somehow find their way to God in spite of a flawed picture of Jesus Christ that makes them reject the Christian religion. They say that if embracing Jesus is not necessary, why do we send missionaries? My response is that people lost in the woods may eventually find their way out, but how uncaring and selfish we would be to not share the map and compass we have been given with those trying to find their way.

Marsha

Good way to get the point across, Marsha. Thanks.

[Ramesh Deosarran]

Were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regenerated? Job? Enoch? Noah? Cornelius? Mary? Joseph? Simeon? Anna? John the Baptist?

I'm not sure I understand what is behind your question, but any answer has to take into account those who have served/worshiped/revered God and been accepted by Him apart from acquaintance with Jesus Christ through all of history.

In Abraham's case, Paul reminds us over and over that it was his faith and trust in God that justified him. How does regeneration mesh with developing faith?

There is a relation between regeneration and faith. In NT theology we are saved by grace but through faith. A person who is saved is born again which is regeneration. The people you named believed in God. Faith has three important elements – trust, belief and loyalty. Again, the people you named demonstrated these elements in their walk with God.

The Incarnation points us to regeneration. The elements of faith are still in tack. In John 3:3 Jesus said, “unless a man is born again, (regeneration) he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

It is reasonable to say that those people affirmed their faith in God. I do not have an issue with those who “served/worshipped/revered God and been accepted by Him apart from acquaintance with Jesus Christ through all of history.”

I am saying NT theology teaches that God justifies and regenerates in the same experience.

[Ramesh Deosarran]

Sure. But since I think it leads us on the wrong track, I'm not going there unless we agree on what will happen to the millions throughout history that never heard of Christ.

There is nothing to agree on. You want to know what will happen to the millions who never heard of Christ. It seems to me that this brings God’s justice into the picture. So we have three questions:
1. What about people who have never heard the gospel?
2. What about people who did not get an adequate account of the gospel?
3. What about people who are mentally unable to grasp the gospel?

I think you have to trust God to be just because justice is imbedded in His nature. You just have to trust Him to be consistent with His nature of holy love.

[Hans Deventer]

There is nothing to agree on. You want to know what will happen to the millions who never heard of Christ. It seems to me that this brings God’s justice into the picture. So we have three questions:
1. What about people who have never heard the gospel?
2. What about people who did not get an adequate account of the gospel?
3. What about people who are mentally unable to grasp the gospel?

I think you have to trust God to be just because justice is imbedded in His nature. You just have to trust Him to be consistent with His nature of holy love.

Then I have no clue what you mean with the question about regeneration. You may want to explain it a little further.

[Barbara Moulton]

I think you have to trust God to be just because justice is imbedded in His nature. You just have to trust Him to be consistent with His nature of holy love.

I absolutely agree with this statement. This is one of those areas that I simply say,

"I trust God to get it right."

I have my own ideas about how God will ultimately respond to those who have never called on Jesus. To me salvation is not necessarily dependent on whether we accept Jesus as to whether or not we have rejected Him.

Rejection can only be deemed to have happened IMHO, when we clearly understand the gospel and then choose to reject it.

Only God knows who has done this.

But ultimately...God is God. When I know in fullness, if I find that I had it completely wrong, then I'll also understand why I have it completely wrong.

[Jamie Wayne]

There is a relation between regeneration and faith. In NT theology we are saved by grace but through faith. A person who is saved is born again which is regeneration. The people you named believed in God. Faith has three important elements – trust, belief and loyalty. Again, the people you named demonstrated these elements in their walk with God.

I think that I would side with Wesley and C.S. Lewis on this issue, and even Jesus spoke of "other sheep not of this flock." Aslan credited what was done unto Tash unto himself.

In other words, if Jesus said that whatever you've done unto the least of these, you've done unto me, then plenty of people love Jesus without even knowing it - and they love Jesus everyday without a clue that Jesus is crediting their love unto Him.

The Incarnation points us to regeneration. The elements of faith are still in tack. In John 3:3 Jesus said, “unless a man is born again, (regeneration) he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

It is reasonable to say that those people affirmed their faith in God. I do not have an issue with those who “served/worshipped/revered God and been accepted by Him apart from acquaintance with Jesus Christ through all of history.”

I'm not entirely sure that I understand your last paragraph, but it seems that you're saying something similar to what I just wrote, that many affirm faith in God apart from a realization of any acquaintance with Jesus Christ.

I am saying NT theology teaches that God justifies and regenerates in the same experience.

I would add that NT theology teaches that God adopts those who are justified and regenerated in the one and the same experience. If one is justified, then the Holy Spirit has regenerated one as a new creation, and that new creation is an heir through adoption to the glory of God.

Can a non-Christian be indwelled with the Holy Spirit, that is the question, and I think that the answer is YES. Pope John Paul II, blessed be he, said that the Jews had a saving covenant with God in the Old Covenant, and that by that covenant, they may be saved apart from the New Covenant. I would tend to agree with JPII on that, but I would probably go even further.

The mindful compassion of many Buddhists seems like the epitome of "Christian" relational holiness...is that evidence of the Holy Spirit? I would say so. Can we, therefore, deduce that they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and, therefore, both adopted and justified? I would err on the side of grace and say YES.

[Jamie Wayne]

By the way, in reference to my last post, I am NOT advocating religious pluralism, rather I am maintaining that Jesus is the WAY, regardless of all else.

If anyone gets "into" heaven, it is only by Jesus Christ - whether that someone knows it or not is the issue.

In other words, if I find myself among my Buddhist brothers "in" heaven, it is not because they were "saved" by Buddha, but because of the grace of God in Christ.

[Jamie Wayne]

I got myself into some trouble a while back by suggesting that if Jesus is the Way, then Christianity is not...in fact, if Jesus is the Way, then Christianity cannot be.

Christianity - at its best - is merely a signpost pointing to the Way, but cannot ever be the Way itself; it would be blasphemous, I'd say, to suggest otherwise. It's the sort of alleged "blasphemy" that got Jesus killed, actually, the suggestion that He was (and is, and will be) the Way rather than the Law or "religion."

[Ramesh Deosarran]

Then I have no clue what you mean with the question about regeneration. You may want to explain it a little further.


Here is you initial post:

Originally Posted by Hans Deventer
There is no doubt that no one will be saved but by the grace of God, as shown to us in Jesus Christ. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The question however remains, is that grace limited to only those who have heard the gospel properly and believed it? And will the rest of this world's population automaticly because they didn't believe in what they never heard or heard badly, be thrown into everlasting torment?

My question was: Does God justify a person without regeneration?

Then you asked me to answer first and I suggested you answer first.

My answer to your question is: I think you have to trust God to be just because justice is imbedded in His nature. You just have to trust Him to be consistent with His nature of holy love.

The answer to my question is: I am saying NT theology teaches that God justifies and regenerates in the same experience.

Now you are saying: Then I have no clue what you mean with the question about regeneration. You may want to explain it a little further.

I am simply saying that God’s grace is not limited. Those who are born again (regeneration) are also justified. This happens in the same experience. The answer to your question on the rest of the population is simple – you just have to trust the justice of God.

The gospel message is simple – born again. God does this for all who confess His name. Believing in Jesus Christ is not about doctrine. It is about an inward change. It is about converting from sin to salvation.

Is it possible to hear it badly and die hearing it badly? Sure! This does not make me the judge. I still have to trust God’s judgment. If I do not trust His judgment then maybe I also heard it badly. Fundamentally, God is in the saving business. I am not! I am His instrument in planting seeds and being Christ to others.

[Billy Cox]

I got myself into some trouble a while back by suggesting that if Jesus is the Way, then Christianity is not...in fact, if Jesus is the Way, then Christianity cannot be.


I find that many theological issues arise from failing to distinguish two related but distinct ideas. Some more common ones:


Jesus is not the Church
The Church is not the Kingdom
The pastor is not the church
The Church is not Christianity

[Hans Deventer]

The gospel message is simple – born again. God does this for all who confess His name. Believing in Jesus Christ is not about doctrine. It is about an inward change. It is about converting from sin to salvation.

Is it possible to hear it badly and die hearing it badly? Sure! This does not make me the judge. I still have to trust God’s judgment. If I do not trust His judgment then maybe I also heard it badly. Fundamentally, God is in the saving business. I am not! I am His instrument in planting seeds and being Christ to others.

Ramesh, thanks for explaining. I really misunderstood your initial question. We're totally on the same page.

[BobHunt]

I was just quoting the scripture.....Im sorry for confusing everyone..i still cant understand why Jesus is not the Way....but thats up to you all.

[Hans Deventer]

I was just quoting the scripture....

I'm sorry Bob, I don't think you were just quoting. I think you actually meant to say something with it

.Im sorry for confusing everyone..i still cant understand why Jesus is not the Way....

It's actually the one thing everyone agrees with.

[Randy Wise]

I was just quoting the scripture.....Im sorry for confusing everyone..i still cant understand why Jesus is not the Way....but thats up to you all.

You didn't confuse me. Jesus did state in different ways that He was the gatekeeper or only way to the Father. Paul and Apollo and others did debate that issue with others. I assume if someone can debate that issue all parties involved have heard of Jesus.

Randy

[Susan Unger]

Thanks again, Tom. The way you lay out the choices is greatly beneficial to me. The two-choice issue is what lay behind this post (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?p=202501#poststop). Those concerned that not enough Christians gave the "correct" answer assumed that the only other choice was the answer that was obviously wrong. I'm not sure they will hear my words any more clearly if I point out that there is a third choice, but it will give me more words to pick from when I'm doing the careful picking of them.

;)

Marsha

The phrase I use is "God will judge us based on the light in our hearts". I don't know where I heard that originally but it works for me when people around me wonder if so and so is in heaven now that s/he has died. This way I don't have to worry if so and so said the sinner's prayer or not, too.

In Al Truesdale's book With Cords of Love, he discusses the several ways christians view salvation. There are definitely more than two choices given!

[Susan Unger]

A professor at Asbury Seminary gave me a good quote along this topic. I can't remember it all but here is part -
If God knew we needed fire insurance, he would have sent us an insurance salesman. If God knew we needed knowledge of Him, he would have sent us a great teacher. If God knew we needed ____, he would have sent us a ______ [and so on]. But instead he knew what we needed the most was a relationship with Him, so he sent us his Son. By sending us his son, we have a relationship with Him and all the rest mentioned as well.

The parts I can remember the best [God didn't send us an insurance salesman but his Son] are what I remind myself when thinking about religious pluralism and how God saves esp for those who've never heard of Jesus.

So and so in my life may be in heaven now even though she didn't say the sinner's prayer...but what Jesus really wanted all along was to have a relationship with that person, not just to get her saved.

[Jamie Wayne]

Very good, Susan; thank you.