Carnality

[Carolyn Franklin]

It's been a long time since I have heard anything said about carnality. Does carnality involve more than being self-centered? What is carnality?

gc

[David Showalter]

Carolyn, I'm looking forward to some great answers to your question, I guess my reply would be "I'm not for sure I can articulate or properly define carnality, but I know it when I see it."

[Bill Morrison]

Carolyn, I'm looking forward to some great answers to your question, I guess my reply would be "I'm not for sure I can articulate or properly define carnality, but I know it when I see it."

I agree with you David. I wonder though if by that we mean we know it when we see it in "others". How do we recognize it in ourselves? Probably an even harder question to answer!

BILL

[John Kennedy]

Carnality is very easy to recognize - especially in others. I'm reminded of one of the most bigoted, closed-minded people I ever had the misfortune of knowing. He once rose in a meeting to dispute the speaker who had said that humility was a trait that would probably be recognized by others far earlier than by oneself.

He went on to vociferously assert that he knew himself to be humble, whether or not anyone else recognized or acknowledged it. It goes without saying that he missed a fabulous career in comedy as a 'straight man'.

[Carolyn Franklin]

Carnality is very easy to recognize - especially in others. I'm reminded of one of the most bigoted, closed-minded people I ever had the misfortune of knowing. He once rose in a meeting to dispute the speaker who had said that humility was a trait that would probably be recognized by others far earlier than by oneself.

He went on to vociferously assert that he knew himself to be humble, whether or not anyone else recognized or acknowledged it. It goes without saying that he missed a fabulous career in comedy as a 'straight man'.

Hi John, do you think the teaching of "carnality" is biblical? If so, the last time I heard, that the Church of the Nazarene taught a second work of grace known as entire sanctification or do you think the walk of people who profess to live a Spirit filled life do not live up to their verbal profession?

I'm thinking about the ability to live a life practicing the Sermon on the Mount and actually possessing the Fruits of the Spirit. I do not believe it is possible to live up to these actions without the help of God. If God asks me to do these things and be this kind of person can not He put within my spirit a desire to live that style of life. I have this desire in my heart and spirit. I am not saying that I have reached the place where I do not have constant reminders to hold my tongue or actions when I rub shoulders in relationship with others.

I will admit that there are times in my life where I have been tempted to "tell the truth in love", but, I think "love" really compelled me to keep silent.

So, many more thoughts, but I am searching to hear the thoughts of others. Has everyone experienced so much mean spiritedness and legalism in their lives that we are a cynical generation who no longer believe God can make us filled with His Spirit enough to be able to be imitators of Christ.

I, like so many, who were brought up in the Church of the Nazarene experienced mean spiritedness and legalistic attitudes in others, does this mean that I am being hypocritical when I say I want to be as much like Jesus as I can be in this world and with Jesus help not live my life the way, as I interpreted, in others who claimed to be saved and sanctified?

Is a supernatural action on the personality possible that will change meanness towards others to where their is agape love? Where there is no mistake that it is from God. I desire to live such a life. No one may be able to recognize it in me, but if I ask the Holy Spirit to enable me to love others as I love myself won't the Holy Spirit be faithful to enable me to do so?

gc

[John Kennedy]

Hi John, do you think the teaching of "carnality" is biblical? If so, the last time I heard, that the Church of the Nazarene taught a second work of grace known as entire sanctification or do you think the walk of people who profess to live a Spirit filled life do not live up to their verbal profession?

I'm thinking about the ability to live a life practicing the Sermon on the Mount and actually possessing the Fruits of the Spirit. I do not believe it is possible to live up to these actions without the help of God. If God asks me to do these things and be this kind of person can not He put within my spirit a desire to live that style of life. I have this desire in my heart and spirit. I am not saying that I have reached the place where I do not have constant reminders to hold my tongue or actions when I rub shoulders in relationship with others.

I will admit that there are times in my life where I have been tempted to "tell the truth in love", but, I think "love" really compelled me to keep silent.

So, many more thoughts, but I am searching to hear the thoughts of others. Has everyone experienced so much mean spiritedness and legalism in their lives that we are a cynical generation who no longer believe God can make us filled with His Spirit enough to be able to be imitators of Christ.

I, like so many, who were brought up in the Church of the Nazarene experienced mean spiritedness and legalistic attitudes in others, does this mean that I am being hypocritical when I say I want to be as much like Jesus as I can be in this world and with Jesus help not live my life the way, as I interpreted, in others who claimed to be saved and sanctified?

Is a supernatural action on the personality possible that will change meanness towards others to where their is agape love? Where there is no mistake that it is from God. I desire to live such a life. No one may be able to recognize it in me, but if I ask the Holy Spirit to enable me to love others as I love myself won't the Holy Spirit be faithful to enable me to do so?

gc

Carolyn -
Good to see you back on NN. I was raised Nazarene (spent first 20+ years in a Nazarene parsonage), but haven't been a Nazarene for 35+ years. Spent some of those 35 years in a Free Methodist church. Because of the above, even though I am reasonably familiar with Nazarene doctrine I have chosen not to comment on matters specific to Naz doctrine on NN. So if I get into trouble for this, I'll tell 'em you started it (a smiley icon would come in handy here).

I'm tempted to say that most people don't need any teaching on carnality - they're pretty adept at it already.

The Nazarene denomination of my day was predominantly American Holiness Movement in emphasis. In fact, it was not until I spent some time in the Free Methodist church that I came to realize that there were significant points of variance between classic Wesleyan doctrine and that emphasized by the AHM.

During the last 16+ years (add up all those numbers and it's no wonder I live in a 'geezer ghetto, er, I mean an 'age qualified community') I have been a part of Congregational churches.

I've stayed fairly conversant with Nazarene doctrinal issues via NazNet. One poster the other day noted a number of different positions on holiness - it would be my observation that in today's Nazarene scene there are some who are AHM, some classic Wesleyan, and the 'large' segment who wonder what THAT conversation's all about.

If I were to state a preference in the matter I would probably come down on the classic Wesleyan position as being somewhat closer to what I, and I suspect many others, have experienced in their journey.

The attitude reflected in the post to which you responded ("I'm humble and I know it!") would indicate that I, along just about everybody else on this forum, have had the experience of dealing with some people whose possession was probably somewhere south of their profession (saved, sanctified and meaner 'n a snake). Fortunately they are very much in the minority.

Since it involves supernatural action, obviously anything is within the realm of possibility. However, given God's reluctance to force resistant human will, the 'mean-spirited' and 'legalistic' would have to seek it. Growing up I heard a lot of preaching about avoiding a 'sinning religion', the, IMO, unfortunate teaching that even acknowledging an unChristlike tendency was a denial of holiness.

You've probably read some of the posts about the disputed 3rd stanza of the hymn "Come, thou fount of every blessing", the "prone to wander....." stanza not found in the Nazarene hymnal. My own journey has convinced me that I'm emphatically in agreement with both versions.

I think it is possible to be an imitator of Christ, but I also think that such a possibility carries with it the necessity of acknowledging need and confessing fault
(I'd probably use the 'sin' word, but I didn't want to offend anyone's sensibilities).

I'd have to say that I was unfortunate enough to run into some people that were so bent on avoiding a 'sinning religion' that they probably missed out on the rich grace that God pours out on those who acknowledge their need.

[Gene Tatsch]

... I, like so many, who were brought up in the Church of the Nazarene experienced mean spiritedness and legalistic attitudes in others, does this mean that I am being hypocritical when I say I want to be as much like Jesus as I can be in this world and with Jesus help not live my life the way, as I interpreted, in others who claimed to be saved and sanctified?

Is a supernatural action on the personality possible that will change meanness towards others to where their is agape love? Where there is no mistake that it is from God. I desire to live such a life. No one may be able to recognize it in me, but if I ask the Holy Spirit to enable me to love others as I love myself won't the Holy Spirit be faithful to enable me to do so?...a) I'll argue that you're not hypocritical when you want what is promised in scripture ... regardless of how grotesquely the Good News has been twisted by those who should know better!
b) Yes, the Holy Spirit will be faithful to do what He has promised (Philippians 2:13). Regardless of who recognizes it ... as a process through all of life.

Perhaps we (at 70 years) are a "lost generation" ... wounded by the institutional church (my early years were in other than Nazarene, so its not limited to Naz ;-)). AND I think I'm seeing that God is putting a passion for being His disciple (as RVL defines it) in the hearts of a growing number of folks.

The fact that you care is evidence that He IS ALREADY working His good work in you, that He is bringing you to that place you (and HE) desire :>>

gene --

[Carolyn Franklin]

Carolyn -
Good to see you back on NN. I was raised Nazarene (spent first 20+ years in a Nazarene parsonage), but haven't been a Nazarene for 35+ years. Spent some of those 35 years in a Free Methodist church. Because of the above, even though I am reasonably familiar with Nazarene doctrine I have chosen not to comment on matters specific to Naz doctrine on NN. So if I get into trouble for this, I'll tell 'em you started it (a smiley icon would come in handy here).

I'm tempted to say that most people don't need any teaching on carnality - they're pretty adept at it already.


The Nazarene denomination of my day was predominantly American Holiness Movement in emphasis. In fact, it was not until I spent some time in the Free Methodist church that I came to realize that there were significant points of variance between classic Wesleyan doctrine and that emphasized by the AHM.

During the last 16+ years (add up all those numbers and it's no wonder I live in a 'geezer ghetto, er, I mean an 'age qualified community') I have been a part of Congregational churches.

I've stayed fairly conversant with Nazarene doctrinal issues via NazNet. One poster the other day noted a number of different positions on holiness - it would be my observation that in today's Nazarene scene there are some who are AHM, some classic Wesleyan, and the 'large' segment who wonder what THAT conversation's all about.

If I were to state a preference in the matter I would probably come down on the classic Wesleyan position as being somewhat closer to what I, and I suspect many others, have experienced in their journey.

The attitude reflected in the post to which you responded ("I'm humble and I know it!") would indicate that I, along just about everybody else on this forum, have had the experience of dealing with some people whose possession was probably somewhere south of their profession (saved, sanctified and meaner 'n a snake). Fortunately they are very much in the minority.

Since it involves supernatural action, obviously anything is within the realm of possibility. However, given God's reluctance to force resistant human will, the 'mean-spirited' and 'legalistic' would have to seek it. Growing up I heard a lot of preaching about avoiding a 'sinning religion', the, IMO, unfortunate teaching that even acknowledging an unChristlike tendency was a denial of holiness.

You've probably read some of the posts about the disputed 3rd stanza of the hymn "Come, thou fount of every blessing", the "prone to wander....." stanza not found in the Nazarene hymnal. My own journey has convinced me that I'm emphatically in agreement with both versions.

I think it is possible to be an imitator of Christ, but I also think that such a possibility carries with it the necessity of acknowledging need and confessing fault
(I'd probably use the 'sin' word, but I didn't want to offend anyone's sensibilities).

I'd have to say that I was unfortunate enough to run into some people that were so bent on avoiding a 'sinning religion' that they probably missed out on the rich grace that God pours out on those who acknowledge their need.

John I really appreciate your thoughts. They mean a lot to mean. I can relate to everything that you have said. Thanks so much.

gc

[Larry Parsons]

Carnality is not the Old Man of Roman chapter 6 The Old man is what we were before we are saved. At out salvation the old man come to a end. Right?
Thanks
Larry

[John Kennedy]

Carnality is not the Old Man of Roman chapter 6 The Old man is what we were before we are saved. At out salvation the old man come to a end. Right?
Thanks
Larry

So the Holy Spirit is received when we are 'saved'?

[Carolyn Franklin]

So the Holy Spirit is received when we are 'saved'?

Yes, but.....................

[Dale Cozby]

Carnal comes from the the Latin for the Greek word , σάρξ meaning flesh.
The flesh is most often used in scripture to deal with the sin nature or the animal instinct as it were that comes from being part of the human species.

The "carnal" nature is to deal or act instinctively to our environment. Thus we we lust, we fight, we hoard, we do things that animals do in the wild.
But if we are in the Spirit, we are set free from the instinct and can move on to higher thinking and set aside the lower thinking.

"He saith to them, `And ye--who do ye say me to be?' and Simon Peter answering said, `Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus answering said to him, `Happy art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens."

[Glenn Messer]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only person who had the privilege of watching people whom I considered to be holy saints as I grew up in the church. Yes, I encountered some who were 'meaner than snakes' but, for the most part, I decided a long time ago to forget about them. But some of the holy saints I will be indebted to for as long as I live. Over the years I have had the privilege of being pastor to some of those folks who loved God more than life itself. I often think they taught me far more than I ever taught them. I remember one family in my church in Louisiana; my only regret about them was that I did not have a hundred families just like them. In a conversation with one of their adult children one day he made this observation about his parents: "Pastor, in all the years I sat at my parents table for Sunday dinner, not once do I recall ever having 'roast preacher' for dinner." I can tell you with complete confidence, they never had 'roast neighbor' for dinner either.

My pastor for much of my life as a teen and a young man was a man named Granville Rogers. I watched and listened as sometimes he was the brunt of other folks humor because of his 'old fashioned' ways. They were 'old fashioned' ways, but I learned that they were fashioned by the grace of God to enable him to be the best that God had called HIM to be; he never sought to impose them strictly upon my life. He taught me not to settle for other folks grace, but encouraged me to know the heart and will of God for my own life. I can't relate to you a single message he ever preached, but I will never forget the love in the life that he lived. When I heard that he had died I traveled miles just to sit in silent honor of the man that God had made him. He would have been embarrassed if you asked him about the life he lived, but he would tell you that, IF he had any pride in his life, it was because one day he asked God to cleanse his heart and take away the carnal nature that threatened his spiritual integrity with God and man ... and God wonderfully answered his prayer. I really think he knew what Paul meant when he wrote, "For me, to live IS CHRIST..."

I could name lots of others, among them one Dr. Mel Thomas Rothwell, and ____________________ ... You can fill in the rest of the blanks, because I'm sure you also have known some spiritual giants in your life. These were men and women who testified that God, in Jesus Christ, had changed their lives by delivering them from the carnal nature of sin and every day they lived their lives as holy saints in a challenging world.

It shouldn't surprise us that there have always been hypocrites; men have always tried to imitate what they have admired in others.

[Carolyn Franklin]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only person who had the privilege of watching people whom I considered to be holy saints as I grew up in the church. Yes, I encountered some who were 'meaner than snakes' but, for the most part, I decided a long time ago to forget about them. But some of the holy saints I will be indebted to for as long as I live. Over the years I have had the privilege of being pastor to some of those folks who loved God more than life itself. I often think they taught me far more than I ever taught them. I remember one family in my church in Louisiana; my only regret about them was that I did not have a hundred families just like them. In a conversation with one of their adult children one day he made this observation about his parents: "Pastor, in all the years I sat at my parents table for Sunday dinner, not once do I recall ever having 'roast preacher' for dinner." I can tell you with complete confidence, they never had 'roast neighbor' for dinner either.

My pastor for much of my life as a teen and a young man was a man named Granville Rogers. I watched and listened as sometimes he was the brunt of other folks humor because of his 'old fashioned' ways. They were 'old fashioned' ways, but I learned that they were fashioned by the grace of God to enable him to be the best that God had called HIM to be; he never sought to impose them strictly upon my life. He taught me not to settle for other folks grace, but encouraged me to know the heart and will of God for my own life. I can't relate to you a single message he ever preached, but I will never forget the love in the life that he lived. When I heard that he had died I traveled miles just to sit in silent honor of the man that God had made him. He would have been embarrassed if you asked him about the life he lived, but he would tell you that, IF he had any pride in his life, it was because one day he asked God to cleanse his heart and take away the carnal nature that threatened his spiritual integrity with God and man ... and God wonderfully answered his prayer. I really think he knew what Paul meant when he wrote, "For me, to live IS CHRIST..."

I could name lots of others, among them one Dr. Mel Thomas Rothwell, and ____________________ ... You can fill in the rest of the blanks, because I'm sure you also have known some spiritual giants in your life. These were men and women who testified that God, in Jesus Christ, had changed their lives by delivering them from the carnal nature of sin and every day they lived their lives as holy saints in a challenging world.

It shouldn't surprise us that there have always been hypocrites; men have always tried to imitate what they have admired in others.

Yes, Glenn, there are many Saints in my book, too! They were Saints because God used them to love me for Jesus. Yes, I've seen Jesus in many, many!
You mentioned Dr. Rothwell, I will immediately tell you that I didn't know Dr. Rothwell, except to mimeograph thousands of legal size paper tests for him. I did have Dr. Metz and as a teacher, I'll never forget that first summer school New Testament class that I had with him in the basement of Bresee Hall. That is one of the times that I can fall back on in my memory of the Holy Spirit's witness to my heart that my being at BNC was definitely the right choice and road for me to be on at that time in my life.

I think when I sensed what I thought was mean spiritedness towards me or anyone else that I was not as angry as I was disappointed and very hurt. Hurt in my spirit that someone that I had so much trust in could exhibit an unloving spirit. I think it was the beginnings of disappointments and the beginnings of me getting my eyes off of people and my realizing that people could disappoint me, but in my heart I knew that I could always depend upon Jesus for my life. That His promises were true and that I could count on Him and His love.

I don't mean to sound critical or to have a critical spirit. I honestly have to stop and think in order to remember any or many mean spirited people. Maybe legalistic and I was made to believe that I wasn't spiritual if I didn't agree with those teachings. I think that I accepted them, before I went away to BNC, but that was the beginning of my getting a broader viewpoint from exposure to other Nazarene young people and as I have grown up in more wisdom and knowledge of spiritual things, I can see how they were so mistaken. I do think that they thought they were being obedient to God in their beliefs. I am thankful for the freedom from the opinion of others. I now can live my life as I understand Jesus and seek to please Him. It is very important to me to be obedient to Christ and all the spiritual understanding and light that I have. That truly is the desire of my heart. It is the desire of my heart to be able to live in the spiritual love of Jesus in my relationships with all that I can. It would hurt me very deeply if anyone would doubt my love for Christ. Maybe that is the way all the people that we or I interpret as being mean spirited would feel if they thought that I doubted their love for Christ because I wasn't interpreting their actions as loving and kind. But, then, again, I doubt very seriously that they would even care about my interpretations of their actions as not being loving and kind as I think Jesus is. So, what is wrong with that picture?
Something is wrong deep down in the relationship between us, right?

Glenn, I think I know a lot more about the Lord and how He works in peoples lives now that I am getting to this age, and you know what my age is, :) , but, I know that I still have so much to learn about spiritual work, and working with God, and people in my relationships. I have many more questions than I have answers at this stage in my life. Maybe, that's because I am comprehending how big God is and how small and insufficient that I am.

I Hope that I haven't rambled on to much and lost you. But, I have to tell you, I'll work til Jesus comes no matter what others do. My heart is set on Jesus and I am in love with Him. It is deep down in my heart. That is the intent of my heart tonight and it is the same as I can remember all of my life. It hasn't changed at all. I still have great hope in God's people and I know how much I need them in my life.

gc

[Leon McCaffrey]

What is carnality? Here's what the Bible says:

We cannot please God - Rom 7:18; 8:5-8
We cannot understand the things of God - 1 Cor. 2:14
We cannot seek God - Rom 3:11
We cannot believe God - John 6:44,65; 10:26; 12:37-41
We cannot do anything good - Job 15:14-16, Prov. 20:9, Jer. 13:23, Rom. 3:10-18, Rom 11:32
We are captive to sin - John 8:34, Rom 6:20, Tit. 3:3
We are prisoners of the devil and constrained to do his will - John 8:43-45, 2 Tim. 2:25-26, 1 John 5:19
Every impulse of our heart is only evil - Gen. 6:5, Isa. 64:6

[Todd Erickson]

Carnality is an interesting thing. It's sort of sin, but it's sort of not.

A lot of it is attitude, I think.

Strangely, those who rail against Carnality tend to be just as guilty of it as anybody else...while it's easy to point to the folks who don't show up to services regularly, or tithe, or watch the wrong sort of movies, or don't dress the way we'd appreciate...

Carnality is also very active in those who show scorn and judgement to those that they don't agree with. (Discernment notes the ability to tell what's going on and act on it, judgement denotes the ability to judge and condemn. You cannot judge unless you can condemn. Only God has the power to condemn, and he gave that power to Jesus, not us...therefore, we need to stop at discernment, and the loving rebuke. You cannot rebuke lovingly through scorn.)

Carnality, at it's heart, seeks an earthly balance for things we see around us, for the wants of our heart, whether those wants are for comfort, satisfaction, love, justice, mercy, etc. Those things are good things, you will note, but there are always sinful ways to pursue them.

If I truly seek justice, then I must seek it through God, and serve others humbly, no matter what comes my way.
If I truly seek love, then I must love others actively and unconditionally, as God has loved me.
If I truly seek satisfaction, I must find it in God, and by forsaking the temporal things around me that seem to promise, but which fail.
If I truly seek comfort, I must seek it with Christ and his followers. Which means I mostly have little comfort, but I stand on His promises.
If I truly seek mercy, then I must give it as it has been given to me already.