More thoughts on prayer

[Marsha Lynn]

In the renewal forum, there is a thread on the role of prayer in renewal. The consensus seems to be that everything must be bathed with prayer, but prayer without action accomplishes nothing. We can't just pray and then fold our hands and wait for God to take care of everything.

There's obvious truth in that view. God gives us work to do and we need to do it. The Bible is full of instructions on how to live and we don't need personal confirmation from God before we start living that way.

And yet ...

Maybe there's some similarity between what happens when we pray and what happens when we tithe. When we take 10% of our income, lay it in an offering plate and take our hands off of it, I think it affects how we spend the other 90% in a way that isn't easily analyzed and tied to a cause-and-effect string of events.

In the same way, when I pray, it affects how I act.

1. I have to stop acting in order to pray. I may be wrong, but I think that's where the "put feet to your prayers" advocates often stumble. As soon as I start to pray, the urge to get started on doing something other than praying shows up and threatens to derail my prayer time. Prayer involves deliberately giving up all action for a while, sacrificing time, letting the moments flow past with no tangible results, even if it means more items left on the old to-do list at the end of the day.

2. When I resume my activities after stopping to invest significant time in prayer, I often discover that my priorities have been tweaked. The ranking on my to-do list changes. Some items fall off of it because they suddenly seem less important; others are added.

Applying these personal observations to a corporate setting, I think the timetable expands. Sometimes we need to take an extended period of time -- weeks, maybe months -- and put change on hold while we stand still and focus on prayer. It's a deliberate act of faith, an acknowledgment that the world is capable of going on temporarily without us while we devote ourselves to spending time with our God, that nothing we might otherwise accomplish during that period of time is as important as touching the heart of God and allowing Him to change us. (The concept of the Sabbath -- a time to stop all work and take time to rest -- is a similar act of faith.)

Maybe I'm wrong to wonder if those who urge us toward immediate action have made the necessary prayer investment first. Maybe I have simply been in some unusual situations that have shaken my faith in those who refuse to put actions on hold while taking time to do nothing but pray.

One such situation was towards the end of my final term as a member of the Sunday School board. (And a strong factor in that finality.) We were informed that a teacher from the children's department was being moved to a new setting and needed to be replaced immediately. Only a couple of those present were aware of this impending shuffle. It was a complete surprise to the rest of us. When I asked if we could invest time in prayer before choosing a replacement, I was told that the move was happening immediately and that there would be no time.

What?! No time to pray before choosing someone to teach our precious children? Did it give those church leaders any pause at all when they heard such words coming out of their mouths? There was none that I could detect. I fell into stunned silence while the rest of the group sorted through the possibilities and came up with a list of candidates for the position. The appointment was made and the meeting adjourned. Case closed. Sometimes you simply have to take action.

What do you think? Am I simply scarred from exceptionally bad experiences, or is it rare for "action" people to set all action aside and let the world go on without them long enough to truly touch the heart of God and allow Him to revamp their to-do list?

Marsha

[Susan Unger]

One such situation was towards the end of my final term as a member of the Sunday School board. (And a strong factor in that finality.) We were informed that a teacher from the children's department was being moved to a new setting and needed to be replaced immediately. Only a couple of those present were aware of this impending shuffle. It was a complete surprise to the rest of us. When I asked if we could invest time in prayer before choosing a replacement, I was told that the move was happening immediately and that there would be no time.

What?! No time to pray before choosing someone to teach our precious children? Did it give those church leaders any pause at all when they heard such words coming out of their mouths? There was none that I could detect. I fell into stunned silence while the rest of the group sorted through the possibilities and came up with a list of candidates for the position. The appointment was made and the meeting adjourned. Case closed. Sometimes you simply have to take action.

What do you think? Am I simply scarred from exceptionally bad experiences, or is it rare for "action" people to set all action aside and let the world go on without them long enough to truly touch the heart of God and allow Him to revamp their to-do list?

Marsha

Since I know from personal experience how easily scarred children are ~ and how much more difficult it is to undo scaring in children vs adults, I wouldn't dream for a second of not praying for wisdom about whom to pick next to teach children. In fact, I just got done with an intercessory prayer group for our church this morning. The bulk of the prayer time was praying for issues like this in our children's department.

I think action without prayer is wasting valuable time.

[Gene Tatsch]

... everything must be bathed with prayer, but prayer without action accomplishes nothing. We can't just pray and then fold our hands and wait for God to take care of everything.

There's obvious truth in that view. God gives us work to do and we need to do it. ... I was told that the move was happening immediately and that there would be no time.

What?! No time to pray before choosing someone to teach our precious children?
...What do you think? ....
Marsha

I think this is a key symptom of the "asleep" nature of the church: leadership very clearly communicates that its not God's church, but their church.

Scripture (OT & NT) seem full of examples of the Biblical rhythm of "praying until ..." and only when we have our instructions from Him do we "do". For example, disciple are NOT commanded to harvest, but to pray the Lord of the harvest to send workers (which may well be us :) under His authority and enabling) - Matt 9:36-38

What deeply alarms me is that such common attitudes in the organized Church seem to be symptoms of a spirit that is not of the Father, definitely not a listening servant ... hence is sin. This impatience is the core of God's rejection of Saul as king of Israel - so such behavior may well drive the Spirit of God from the organization.

[Marsha Lynn]

In all fairness, the story I related is from quite a few years ago. Not having time to pray about choosing a Sunday School teacher was just one symptom of a serious problem in the church. Things have changed since then. However, I still react negatively when someone says that prayer is fine so long as you don't let it interfere with pushing ahead with plans and programs. To me, that's like saying that tithing is fine as long as you can afford it and taking a Sabbath rest is good for those who aren't too busy for it. Sometimes faith means ceasing from activity in order to devote ourselves to prayer and fasting, and trusting God to keep the world turning without us for a while.

I think this is a key symptom of the "asleep" nature of the church: leadership very clearly communicates that its not God's church, but their church.

Scripture (OT & NT) seem full of examples of the Biblical rhythm of "praying until ..." and only when we have our instructions from Him do we "do". For example, disciple are NOT commanded to harvest, but to pray the Lord of the harvest to send workers (which may well be us :) under His authority and enabling) - Matt 9:36-38

What deeply alarms me is that such common attitudes in the organized Church seem to be symptoms of a spirit that is not of the Father, definitely not a listening servant ... hence is sin. This impatience is the core of God's rejection of Saul as king of Israel - so such behavior may well drive the Spirit of God from the organization.

[Susan Unger]

I think this is a key symptom of the "asleep" nature of the church: leadership very clearly communicates that its not God's church, but their church.

Scripture (OT & NT) seem full of examples of the Biblical rhythm of "praying until ..." and only when we have our instructions from Him do we "do". For example, disciple are NOT commanded to harvest, but to pray the Lord of the harvest to send workers (which may well be us :) under His authority and enabling) - Matt 9:36-38

What deeply alarms me is that such common attitudes in the organized Church seem to be symptoms of a spirit that is not of the Father, definitely not a listening servant ... hence is sin. This impatience is the core of God's rejection of Saul as king of Israel - so such behavior may well drive the Spirit of God from the organization.

So well put!:preach

[Susan Unger]

In all fairness, the story I related is from quite a few years ago. Not having time to pray about choosing a Sunday School teacher was just one symptom of a serious problem in the church. Things have changed since then. However, I still react negatively when someone says that prayer is fine so long as you don't let it interfere with pushing ahead with plans and programs. To me, that's like saying that tithing is fine as long as you can afford it and taking a Sabbath rest is good for those who aren't too busy for it. Sometimes faith means ceasing from activity in order to devote ourselves to prayer and fasting, and trusting God to keep the world turning without us for a while.

My thoughts exactly. In fact, how is it that you've gotten into my head to state my thoughts so perfectly? ;) I experienced this attitude at my former church which deeply discouraged me. My motto is you get what you pray for... :amen

[Billy Cox]

What do you think? Am I simply scarred from exceptionally bad experiences, or is it rare for "action" people to set all action aside and let the world go on without them long enough to truly touch the heart of God and allow Him to revamp their to-do list?


When I think of biblical examples, asking the question "did they err on the side of action or inaction?", the error is almost always on the side of premature action. Abraham tried to bring about the promised son through Hagar. Moses struck a rock with his staff to provide water for the complaining Israelites, but it was in anger, and not within the counsel of the Lord.

I see the issue as being FAR more complex than deciding between acting and praying.

1. We could pray, but ask for the wrong thing - such as asking God to sanctify the plans that we already intend on implementing.

2. We could pray, and then not listen for a response - leading to the wrong action or none at all.

3. We could pray, receive a clear response, and then do something else anyway.

One thing that makes me uneasy about corporate prayer is that the language we use to describe prayer is sometimes indistinguishable from a magic spell in which the right combination of words, earnestness and collective participation (or monetary gifts) spurs the deity to cast his capricious will to give us some good mojo.

Another thing is that old saw, "God does nothing, but in answer to prayer." Yeah...says who? Whose prayer was God answering when he created the world? ...when he gave clothes to Adam and Eve? ...when he saved Noah and family from the flood? ...I really detest the magical connotations that accompany that piece of fluff. God doesn't reside in boxes, and thank the Lord, he is not confined to the boundaries set by our prayers.

[Susan Unger]

Just to be clear, when I say you get what you pray for, I was being a bit sarcastic. It was my way of saying that the people at my old church didn't pray for God to move in the church...and then they wondered why God didn't move and so on.

[Gene Tatsch]

When I think of biblical examples, asking the question "did they err on the side of action or inaction?", the error is almost always on the side of premature action. Abraham ...
Yea, verily!!
It makes sense to "pray without ceasing" - i.e., maintain a running dialog with the Counselor!

[Susan Unger]

Yea, verily!!
It makes sense to "pray without ceasing" - i.e., maintain a running dialog with the Counselor!

:amen Preach it brotha! :preach

[Marsha Lynn]

One thing that makes me uneasy about corporate prayer is that the language we use to describe prayer is sometimes indistinguishable from a magic spell in which the right combination of words, earnestness and collective participation (or monetary gifts) spurs the deity to cast his capricious will to give us some good mojo.

I agree. Often I hear about how so many people praying for so long is surely a guarantee that God will hear and respond to our prayer. It's as though given enough people to pray often enough we can get him into a corner where he'll have no option but to do what we want.

On the other hand, although I see some of the traps in corporate prayer and can easily tell you things that strike me as exhibiting weak thinking, I'm sorely lacking in positive personal experience with effective corporate prayer. I'm still trying to figure out how to apply what I've learned in private prayer to corporate settings. I've shared several examples of running into brick walls when I hoped to slow the feverish action down enough to pray, however, now that there's an open door before me, I'm struggling to find the next step. I guess I'm in danger of falling in the ditch on the other side of the road where we do nothing while seeking for direction that will enable us to all agree on the next step.

Still exploring this matter.

Marsha

[Susan Unger]

I agree. Often I hear about how so many people praying for so long is surely a guarantee that God will hear and respond to our prayer. It's as though given enough people to pray often enough we can get him into a corner where he'll have no option but to do what we want.

On the other hand, although I see some of the traps in corporate prayer and can easily tell you things that strike me as exhibiting weak thinking, I'm sorely lacking in positive personal experience with effective corporate prayer. I'm still trying to figure out how to apply what I've learned in private prayer to corporate settings. I've shared several examples of running into brick walls when I hoped to slow the feverish action down enough to pray, however, now that there's an open door before me, I'm struggling to find the next step. I guess I'm in danger of falling in the ditch on the other side of the road where we do nothing while seeking for direction that will enable us to all agree on the next step.

Still exploring this matter.

Marsha

I've been to my friends' non-nazarene churches. They love to pray individually and coporately. There is nothing like the whole body coming together in prayer. My own naz church that I was attending at the time couldn't be bothered to pray corporately [want to say individually as well but that would assume I knew each person's life enough to say so and that wouldn't be so]. There was a huge difference in the outcomes in the churches. The praying, non-naz churches were on fire for God, the naz church was dying [and is practically dead right now].

The greatest example I have of the power of corporate prayer from visiting with them was when I had chemo. I felt so much spiritual oppression during chemo. I went to my friend's church and 30 some of them on a sunday night gathered around me. As they all laid hands on me praying all at once [& for 30 min], the oppression lifted and I felt such peace and God's power come on me. After that, chemo was [relatively speaking] a breeze. While I am sure that the folks at my naz church at the time prayed for me in their homes, it didn't have the same effect on me as my friend's praying church did.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Years ago, at a district committee meeting, leadership presented a budget for an component of a district program. When the chair called for a vote, a member requested that we take time to collectively pray about the issue. The chair ruled that "We have prayed enough about this stuff, and we need to take action." Then he took the vote, and the budget was approved.

Some of those present had put a lot of prayerful work into what was being presented, but some there hadn't had opportunity to participate. Consequently, what the chair said may have been true for some, but not for all. It now seems that collective prayer might have been in order. Certainly there had not been established any kind of unified support for the budget, which in reality was much more than merely a budget. By approving the budget, the annual agenda was established. That agenda likely would have been more widely embraced had we taken time to "pray" in some unified manner, prior to budget approval. In the end, the agenda was adopted, but not supported. The agenda was funded, but ultimately the project didn't accomplish much.

However, the underlying issue isn't whether or not prayer gets our agenda fulfilled: it is rather to determine the mind and leading of the Lord - in this case. In this model of leadership, leadership was saying, "I have prayed and determined/discovered what the Lord wants, and now I this committee/board is going to go along with what God has told me." That's a model of leadership that fortunately is being used less and less. It has not, however, died off completely. When leadership allows for prayer, that leadership needs also to allow for variant understanding of what the Lord wants. Sometimes there is uninimity: sometimes not. Some leaders can work that way, and others cannot. In renewal discussions there is sometimes a call to offer rather autonomous authority. That kind of leadership is often cited as most effective: it gets things done. Sometimes that is true: sometimes it is not. Sometimes that kind of leadership makes poor decisions. Granted, it is not the only kind of leadership that makes poor decisions. Sometimes a group can pray together, make a decision, and discover later that the decision seems to have been a poor one.

I would prefer to have prayed and made a mistake than to make a mistake without praying.

[Gene Tatsch]

...In this model of leadership, leadership was saying, "I have prayed and determined/discovered what the Lord wants, and now I this committee/board is going to go along with what God has told me." That's a model of leadership that fortunately is being used less and less.

I would prefer to have prayed and made a mistake than to make a mistake without praying.

a) I'll say it: the "leadership" was actually ham-handed "management".:basic04
So what about this sort of behavior makes it "Christian"? (none that I can think). Hence, I'm driven to believe it displeases and misrepresents the Father ... and am horrified that it happens so often in a 501(c)3 organization that claims to be a "church".

b) Years ago and far away, I grew up under eastern evangelical Friends where the presiding clerk took whatever time he sensed was needed to listen to people & God (i.e., pray) during the monthly meetings. Loss of efficiency (issues were sometimes tabled for lack of a clear sense of God's direction), gain of sensitivity to Father's agenda, gain of "buy-in" from members.

Perhaps what we're dancing about is more another dimension in which we (to whomever that should refer) desperately need to be awakened from stupor.
And yes, my wife & I are realizing how much we need to learn how to pray - privately and corporately. Something unimaginable in the early church :basic04.

[Barbara Moulton]

I absolutely agree with the direction of this thread, in the sense that we need prayer. We need prayer in our lives and prayer in our churches and prayer in our world.

I do grow concerned at what could appear to be a negative attitude towards those who have been deemed as not praying "enough".

Simply dismissing prayer as unneccessary to the decisions is wrong. And if a leader really said, "We've prayed about this, you don't have to.." well, that's appalling. But I have to say that I've never heard anything close to that said. I've never heard someone say, "We don't need to pray about this." I've never heard anyone say, "Let's get moving without bothering to pray."

I have seen genuine differences between what people think is praying "enough". And let's face it, it is a highly subjective term.

I shared about a year ago about an incredible answer to prayer that happened in this church. The prayer was not even two minutes long. Yet it was a prayer of total surrender about a concern. And the answer came within days. In that case, in that circumstances, two minutes was enough. Yet two minutes of prayer would not be enough on a continuing basis.

I have met all sorts of people in my 25+ years of ministry. People who had energy and drive to make things happen and people who had a heart for deep times of prayer.

Both parts of the body. And we all need each other. We need to learn from each other and draw from the strengths that everyone brings to the church. People who draw the body together and say, "We need to pray..." and people who say, "Now is the time to claim in faith what we have prayed about and move forward."

[Gene Tatsch]

...
... The prayer was not even two minutes long. Yet it was a prayer of total surrender about a concern. ...

So, once again, we've been trying to "measure" a spiritual matter with a human metric!
Yes, the issue really is "having the mind of Christ" - to Whom "a day is as a thousand years ..."
We need to learn to pray until He says we're "done".

I need this sort of probing, sharpening. Its bringing me to hunger & repent, enroute to His good plans. :basic05

[Marsha Lynn]

I absolutely agree with the direction of this thread, in the sense that we need prayer. We need prayer in our lives and prayer in our churches and prayer in our world.

I do grow concerned at what could appear to be a negative attitude towards those who have been deemed as not praying "enough".

Barbara, I looked back over this thread and could find no one saying that we don't pray enough. In my example and in Dennis', leadership ruled that taking immediate action was necessary and that there would be NO time given to prayer.

Simply dismissing prayer as unnecessary to the decisions is wrong. And if a leader really said, "We've prayed about this, you don't have to.." well, that's appalling. But I have to say that I've never heard anything close to that said. I've never heard someone say, "We don't need to pray about this." I've never heard anyone say, "Let's get moving without bothering to pray."

I'm glad for you that you have never seen this happen. I have. I shared one example in this thread. Dennis shared another. In another thread, I related the time when, as director of children's ministries, I called the children's council to focused prayer and someone else stepped in and took several decisions out of my hands because I wasn't taking enough action to please them. (By the way, both of those examples were from the same era of time and involved the same leaders.)

Yes, I have been told many times through the years that I (being one among a corporate "you") don't pray enough, which is interesting since I don't remember that it was ever a follow-up to a survey concerning our prayer habits. That's simply to be expected in a church where the one enduring truth is no matter what you are currently doing, it's not enough.

In this thread, I have tried to put the emphasis on retaining permission to pray without opening one's eyes after even two minutes to discover that Saul has gone ahead and made the sacrifice because the Philistines were coming and he couldn't wait around for Samuel any longer (I Samuel 13).

I'll agree that there is no minimum length of prayer. In fact, I spent considerable effort trying to express that in this thread (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?p=3425#poststop) from a couple of years ago. The question here is: Is it ever appropriate to tell people who have requested a time of prayer before taking further action that it's time to stop praying and get moving? And maybe a related question concerns how we determine for ourselves when that time comes.

[Barbara Moulton]

Barbara, I looked back over this thread and could find no one saying that we don't pray enough.

I guess we all read things differently. A couple of things jumped out at me.

"Am I simply scarred from exceptionally bad experiences, or is it rare for "action" people to set all action aside and let the world go on without them long enough to truly touch the heart of God and allow Him to revamp their to-do list?" Marsha

Scripture (OT & NT) seem full of examples of the Biblical rhythm of "praying until ..." and only when we have our instructions from Him do we "do"...What deeply alarms me is that such common attitudes in the organized Church seem to be symptoms of a spirit that is not of the Father, definitely not a listening servant ... hence is sin." Gene

When grouped with the other posts in this thread, I did get an impression that what was being communicated was that some within the church don't pray enough before making decision. I wanted to make the observation that what constitutes "enough" could differ from person to person.

If I was wrong in the impression that led to that observation then I apologize.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Marsha Lynn]

I guess we all read things differently. A couple of things jumped out at me.

[B]"Am I simply scarred from exceptionally bad experiences, or is it rare for "action" people to set all action aside and let the world go on without them long enough to truly touch the heart of God and allow Him to revamp their to-do list?" Marsha

Ahh... I can't speak for Gene, but it's poor writing skills on my part. I wasn't really making a judgment call on how much prayer other people were putting into decisions. I was simply recalling times when I have been part of a decision-making entity and have been pushed to take action without enough opportunity for prayer. When it's a group action, until everyone involved in the decision has had an opportunity to think and pray about it, "we" (or at least the "me" part of "we") have not prayed enough.

I apologize for inadvertently letting it slip that I sometimes wonder how much spiritual insight is actually involved in some church decisions. It would be out of line for me to speculate aloud about such things.

Marsha

[Gene Tatsch]

I guess we all read things differently. A couple of things jumped out at me.
...
Scripture (OT & NT) seem full of examples of the Biblical rhythm of "praying until ..." and only when we have our instructions from Him do we "do"...What deeply alarms me is that such common attitudes in the organized Church seem to be symptoms of a spirit that is not of the Father, definitely not a listening servant ... hence is sin."

When grouped with the other posts in this thread, I did get an impression that what was being communicated was that some within the church don't pray enough before making decision. I wanted to make the observation that what constitutes "enough" could differ from person to person.
...
Blessings,
Barbara

Well, what I "heard" is you're asking for a clarification - which I perceive as the very nature of good discussion, and I value NazNet for enabling good discussion.

next: I'm pretty certain that God won't let Himself get put in a box - "enough", or any other. I'm continually challenged to operationally understand the phrase "... effectual and fervent prayer of a righteous man ..." so that I can DO it. All our measures (time, intensity, volume, etc.) are likely irrelevant to our Father. I think Scripture is consistent with simply walking in fellowship with Him, taking on His Heart, ... i.e., a growing, deepening relationship with Him is at issue.

So any sense of rushing into a decision, of hurry, may be a signal that we need to wait - hmmm, that reminds me of Tyrany of the Urgent - http://www.navpress.com/EPubs/PrinterFriendly/1/1.60.2.html

Thanks for the question/conversation.

[Marsha Lynn]

b) Years ago and far away, I grew up under eastern evangelical Friends where the presiding clerk took whatever time he sensed was needed to listen to people & God (i.e., pray) during the monthly meetings. Loss of efficiency (issues were sometimes tabled for lack of a clear sense of God's direction), gain of sensitivity to Father's agenda, gain of "buy-in" from members.

Thanks for another reminder of the depths in my Quaker heritage, Gene. I am of the conviction that denominations have as much to do with personality as theology and, even though I've never been part of a Quaker church myself, I often notice the impact the Quaker aspect of my personality has on my life choices.

As I have considered this whole matter, I realize that we are discussing prayer leading to decisions here. However, most corporate prayer of which I am a part has no such goal. Rather, we gather with our list of requests, make the requests, and then leave them in God's hands. We pray earnestly enough and ask that He change us, but there's no decision sitting on the table waiting for direction from God. We don't depend on getting a response to our prayers. Either people are healed or they aren't. Either the grieving are comforted or they are not. Either the church grows or it doesn't. Either revival comes or it doesn't. Either we or our leaders (at any level) make good decisions or not. It seems that anyone who has been in the faith long enough has learned to trudge on in the face of any outcome to such requests. If we have no evidence that God has heard and answered our prayers this week, will it make any difference to how we pray next week?

That's not at all how my personal prayer life works. I pray as an individual in need of guidance and direction. How can I respond to this person? What shall I do about this situation? How does corporate prayer work? What do I need to do differently when leading corporate prayer? Where do I need to reorder my priorities? How much responsibility should I accept in what areas? If I take this course of action, will it please God? Is there something I need to know about the possible results of my choices? Why do other people do what they do? Is there some insight that will help me understand them? How can I best be a blessing to them? Can I be a blessing to them? Is my hurting big toe something I need to do something about? Is there a lesson to be learned from that painful toe?

I'm curious. How much corporate prayer in which you are involved requires and expects an answer? Not necessarily an immediate answer. I've been asking God how corporate prayer works for a long time. This thread is part of that dialog. My prayer agenda is not lacking for "old business." However, I also have a steady flow of new questions that send me back to my prayer closet looking for answers. And having my thinking adjusted at least a little by the time I'm done praying is something I've come to see as a "norm". I don't demand it, but if it's not happening I'm going to be trying to figure out if something is amiss.

Is there a similar path for groups where prayer involves dialog with our Creator and consistently adjusts the thinking of the group as a whole?

Still studying the mystery,
Marsha

[Billy Cox]

Still studying the mystery


All I can say is that as long as you don't replace mystery with formula, you're on the right path.

[Gene Tatsch]

... prayer leading to decisions here. However, most corporate prayer of which I am a part has no such goal. Rather, we gather with our list of requests, make the requests, and then leave them in God's hands. ... If we have no evidence that God has heard and answered our prayers this week, will it make any difference to how we pray next week?

That's not at all how my personal prayer life works. I pray as an individual in need of guidance and direction. ... How does corporate prayer work? What do I need to do differently when leading corporate prayer? ...

I've never before known that I differentiated between "corporate" and "personal" prayer (and I'm notably clueless on lots of important stuff :basic04 And now you've got me pondering. :basic05

As to the vagueness (my summarization) of corporate prayer (now that you make me think) I'll submit that we're (corporately) non-believers: we want to pray so that we can claim that He "answered" (i.e., got what we asked for when we asked for it) - and praying personally has entirely too much specific stuff that appears "unanswered" (i.e., we don't get what we think we asked for when we asked for it). So its basically wanting to appear corporately "spiritual" without risk. I don't mean this as provocative - it just seems that way to me, now that I'm beginning to ponder.

1. Is our functional distinction "corporate" and "personal" consistent with New Testament teaching? Yes, or no.

2. Either way, what is our "next step"??

[Susan Unger]

I've never before known that I differentiated between "corporate" and "personal" prayer (and I'm notably clueless on lots of important stuff :basic04 And now you've got me pondering. :basic05

As to the vagueness (my summarization) of corporate prayer (now that you make me think) I'll submit that we're (corporately) non-believers: we want to pray so that we can claim that He "answered" (i.e., got what we asked for when we asked for it) - and praying personally has entirely too much specific stuff that appears "unanswered" (i.e., we don't get what we think we asked for when we asked for it). So its basically wanting to appear corporately "spiritual" without risk. I don't mean this as provocative - it just seems that way to me, now that I'm beginning to ponder.

1. Is our functional distinction "corporate" and "personal" consistent with New Testament teaching? Yes, or no.

2. Either way, what is our "next step"??

I would also add that we are not comfortable with group prayer, as a general rule. I say this based on visiting my pentecostal friends' churches - they are group pray-ers. I had a group of them hover all around me one time praying for me for 30 min or so and it was just wonderful. I have tried that in my current nazarene church [ex. my ss class] and they looked like they were being tortured.

[Gene Tatsch]

I would also add that we are not comfortable with group prayer, as a general rule. I say this based on visiting my pentecostal friends' churches - they are group pray-ers. ...

Now that you mention it, my wife & I had a striking experience some years ago ... "pentecostal presbyterians" (my assessment :)) who are praying for renewal of the Presbyterian church, no less! http://prmi.org/

I wonder: Does this mean the group-praying facet of the spiritual development of "evangelicals" (including CotN) may the somehow be stunted?

If so, why?
If not, why is our praying weak (apparently) that we're uncomfortable and vague coming to the Throne as a group???

Personally, I feel that "fervent and effectual prayer" is a major weakness of mine, yet key to revival/renewal in His church ... even as I grow in this area.

[Susan Unger]

Now that you mention it, my wife & I had a striking experience some years ago ... "pentecostal presbyterians" (my assessment :)) who are praying for renewal of the Presbyterian church, no less! http://prmi.org/

I wonder: Does this mean the group-praying facet of the spiritual development of "evangelicals" (including CotN) may the somehow be stunted?

If so, why?
If not, why is our praying weak (apparently) that we're uncomfortable and vague coming to the Throne as a group???

Personally, I feel that "fervent and effectual prayer" is a major weakness of mine, yet key to revival/renewal in His church ... even as I grow in this area.

"why is our praying weak (apparently) that we're uncomfortable and vague coming to the Throne as a group???"

You know, I've wracked my brains for years trying to figure this out and come up clueless.

I know why my former church is like this - they had a pastor there for 28 years who couldn't stand such things in church [preached against praying more than 5 minutes, didn't encourage people to come to the altar and pray ~ actually prohibited it at times, only allowed X number of people to prayer at prayer meetings ~ no more even if they needed it], but I think [and hope] that he was just a freak of nature and not typical of all pastors.

But as for others - I just don't know. When I read threads like Do we pray too much [group answer is yes] and do we read the Bible too much [group answer is yes] it boggles my mind. I want to tell them no, we don't do enough - as I have seen what how glorious it is to be in service with both [and it always was in a P/C environment]. I hold back though cuz I know I am not going to change anyone's mind [tried for years at my old church and got burned].

[Barbara Moulton]

"why is our praying weak (apparently) that we're uncomfortable and vague coming to the Throne as a group???"

You know, I've wracked my brains for years trying to figure this out and come up clueless.

I know why my former church is like this - they had a pastor there for 28 years who couldn't stand such things in church [preached against praying more than 5 minutes, didn't encourage people to come to the altar and pray ~ actually prohibited it at times, only allowed X number of people to prayer at prayer meetings ~ no more even if they needed it], but I think [and hope] that he was just a freak of nature and not typical of all pastors.

But as for others - I just don't know. When I read threads like Do we pray too much [group answer is yes] and do we read the Bible too much [group answer is yes] it boggles my mind. I want to tell them no, we don't do enough - as I have seen what how glorious it is to be in service with both [and it always was in a P/C environment]. I hold back though cuz I know I am not going to change anyone's mind [tried for years at my old church and got burned].

I don't think the point of the thread was us all agreeing that "yes we pray too much".

I think the idea of the prayer thread (and the bible study thread) was to make us think about the place of both in the life of the Christian. We can't escape the fact that us humans love to measure things. It's difficult for us to simply exhort each other to pray and read the Bible. We like to define what good prayer looks like and what a meaningful Bible study time is. While I absolutely need to define this for myself and while I should be willing to help my fellow Christian explore what it means for them, we have to allow for the fact that we are all individuals.

In the referenced blog, the writer talked about the demands of his pastor that they all commit to coming in to the church at 5 am for one hour of prayer.

"For 13 weeks straight I would get up at 3:45am, take a shower, get dressed, and then make the 55 minute commute to the church building just in time to hit my knees and join the faithful."

IMHO, this is as misguided as a pastor carelessly telling his people that they really don't need more than five minutes a day.

The point of drawing alongside of each other is to encourage each other, to seek God's best for us and surrender to His leading. For some that might mean a leading to pray for an hour a day. For others, that might mean never praying for more than ten to fifteen minutes at a time. For all it should mean purposefully seeking out the sacred in everything they do...to make their lives a living sacrament and prayer.

When it comes to corporate prayer..some of the most Christlike individuals I have met come from a faith tradition that would probably be very uncomfortable with an hour long prayer meeting.

That doesn't make their walk with Christ any less than mine. Just different. I don't think that their personal prayer life is weak...in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it is very, very strong, because I see how they live the rest of their lives.

[Marsha Lynn]

As I have considered this whole matter, I realize that we are discussing prayer leading to decisions here. However, most corporate prayer of which I am a part has no such goal. Rather, we gather with our list of requests, make the requests, and then leave them in God's hands. We pray earnestly enough and ask that He change us, but there's no decision sitting on the table waiting for direction from God. We don't depend on getting a response to our prayers. Either people are healed or they aren't. Either the grieving are comforted or they are not. Either the church grows or it doesn't. Either revival comes or it doesn't. Either we or our leaders (at any level) make good decisions or not. It seems that anyone who has been in the faith long enough has learned to trudge on in the face of any outcome to such requests. If we have no evidence that God has heard and answered our prayers this week, will it make any difference to how we pray next week?

It has been a couple of weeks since I posted this. I've been in corporate prayer school during that time.

We're having VBS this week. Two weeks ahead, I asked my SS group to pray during the next week for ideas of how we can connect with the young families coming into contact with our church through VBS. As a starter idea, I produced some "business cards" with the VBS details on them -- something easier to have on our persons and share than fliers when running across parents and children at the grocery store or ball park who might be interested. I then prayed that God would lead us to ways to connect with young families.

The next Sunday we tossed some ideas around as a group and came up with a plan to make a "parent lounge" where parents could hang out while waiting for their children. We took the most comfortable room in the church, which happens to be conveniently located and not being used for VBS. As the idea evolved, we set up a refreshment table and laid out magazines. The "lounge" nomenclature morphed into a "Custom Garage Waiting Area". I've been hanging out there every evening while taking care of attendance, along with several other 'regulars'. There's a steady flow of people in and out to enjoy the refreshments. Many stop to talk. It's not the "outside" parents who are coming in (most of those are part of other churches, anyway) so much as "helpers" who have a bit of down time. Several of those people show up when there's work to be done more than for ordinary church services. It has been great catching up with their lives.

Last night I was chatting in the "Waiting Area" with one of our young adult regulars who mentioned that he had run across a couple of former classmates in town who are currently not tied into a church. I also ran across a couple of young adults this week who have just moved (back) to town and don't have a church yet. Plus, we have the young adults who consider themselves part of our church enough to join the VBS staff as "helpers" but don't actually show up on Sunday mornings. And the toddler daughter of a young man whose name has been moldering away on the "Responsibility List" for years without contact has appeared at VBS and brought us fresh connection with her father. And the neighbor across the road who has been on our Wednesday night prayer list for months brought her young daughter last night and then came back with little sister and stayed.

Suddenly our "prospect" list is blossoming with new hope. I think the question of how we can connect with these people in meaningful ways apart from the 9:30 SS hour will be our next subject for corporate prayer that begs for a specific (group) answer and guidance.

There's much to learn here.

Marsha