Building the church

[Gene Tatsch]

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus states “… I will build My church …”.
Considering the opposition (“… the gates of Hades …”), it would seem that only He is qualified & able to build His church.

Yet in recent years, I’ve been noticing a regular undercurrent of preaching that includes inducement to “build the kingdom” and “build the church” as the focus of our salvation, and an attempt to motivate audiences to act in specified ways. It seems to me that such teaching/preaching is non-Biblical (and non-Wesleyan?) and doomed to bring frustration on all.

Nowhere do I read that we (His disciples) are to build His church.
However we are given
1. the Great Command (love God with our whole being, and our neighbor as ourself), and
2. the Great Commission (make disciples).
... which seems to get infrequent sermon time, let alone serious discipleship attention in the overall "programs" of the Church.

What am I missing?

[Ryan Scott]

I agree. Christ builds the Church, we're just supposed to be the Church - although when you think about what that means "just" probably isn't the correct word to use.

[BobHunt]

the question I have is "do we just want results or do we want fruit?"
Id rather have a handful of people that love God than a church full of people that are shallow.

[Kent Campbell]

Rather than building the church, or building the kingdom, we are called to be faithful witnesses to that kingdom.

[Mark Metcalfe]

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus states “… I will build My church …”.
Considering the opposition (“… the gates of Hades …”), it would seem that only He is qualified & able to build His church.

Yet in recent years, I’ve been noticing a regular undercurrent of preaching that includes inducement to “build the kingdom” and “build the church” as the focus of our salvation, and an attempt to motivate audiences to act in specified ways. It seems to me that such teaching/preaching is non-Biblical (and non-Wesleyan?) and doomed to bring frustration on all.

Nowhere do I read that we (His disciples) are to build His church.
However we are given
1. the Great Command (love God with our whole being, and our neighbor as ourself), and
2. the Great Commission (make disciples).
... which seems to get infrequent sermon time, let alone serious discipleship attention in the overall "programs" of the Church.

What am I missing?


I have a couple of observations.

First, when the Scripture talks about the church prevailing against the gates of hell, (the gates of hell shall not prevail against it), I was taught to think of the church as active in opposing the gates of hell and not cloistwered in a defensive posture. The church assails the gates.

Second, I think that the church is in the process of being torn down in preparation for rebuilding.

To many, church is synonymous with "organized religion" and that is getting a bad rap from many quarters, in large measure because of the abuses in organized religion. A colleague of mine at breakfast just the other day said that "people realize that they don't need religion anymore" in talking about their own reasons for not going to church.

In our own religious circles, we also tend to make a distinction between church and kingdom, and seem to mean "organization with a hierarchy" versus one's "individual responsibility to Christ." This has had the effect among identified Christians of giving reasons for not going to church, because [the organization] has lost value. A shift has been made from inward to outward, redefining "community" to include the scriptural "neighbor" and even the faithless, instead of a collective of people of "like precious faith" that ministers to these "others."

The organized churches are in trouble. (I take solace in the Scripture that "I will build my Church," because whatever happens, Jesus never fails.) The trend is towards a redefinition of what it means to be a church, as an organized body. This means that people assocated with the organization are also in trouble - pastors are prominent among these - because their support structures are going to change as the church changes. (What is the percentage of bi-vocational pastors these days? Is the trend rising or falling?)

Mark

[Randy McRoberts]

I think the church and the kingdom are two different entities. NT Wright, in Surprised by Hope, talks about the church (that's us) building toward his kingdom. I like that terminology.

I also have difficulty in associating the church very closely with the entity we call the church. We have more of a club. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.) I don't see that in the Bible.

[Billy Cox]

The organized churches are in trouble. (I take solace in the Scripture that "I will build my Church," because whatever happens, Jesus never fails.) The trend is towards a redefinition of what it means to be a church, as an organized body. This means that people assocated with the organization are also in trouble - pastors are prominent among these - because their support structures are going to change as the church changes. (What is the percentage of bi-vocational pastors these days? Is the trend rising or falling?)


Because of my position in life, it's easy for me to declare that the organized local church is expendable. If the organized church was my career path, I might take a more self-serving point of view.

check out Acts 17:24-25
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

While in Germany, it became abundantly clear to me that God's work and presence are not limited to the scope of our church programs and activities. Even in a place like Germany with very little religious participation, the hunger of the Creation for the Creator along with the work of the Holy Spirit are more than enough to bring honor to God.

Yes, a local church can provide Christ followers with opportunities for growth, service and fellowship, but a local congregation is sorely deceived if it sees itself as the sole hope for the community.

[Mark Metcalfe]

Because of my position in life, it's easy for me to declare that the organized local church is expendable. If the organized church was my career path, I might take a more self-serving point of view.


I have some self-serving interests because I have two young pastors as sons-in-law. I believe in each of them to be kingdom-builders in each of their churches, so it is not easy for me to make my observations and opinions on the matter.

I think the move towards returning to more liturgy is one response to a growing crisis for the churches, because it emphasizes a collective faith and collective experience, as opposed to individualized faith. It seeks to place meaning back into ritual and symbols that have been cast aside as mere rote, but it may prove too late because individualized faith is set deep and well into several generations.

It is interesting for you to cite Germany (and I may expand that to Europe) in a positive light because Europe often has been cited as a place where the Church has "lost its first love." The revivals are long over and gone, and the churches are largely empty. The warning for America over the last few decades is that we are following the same pathway to anesthetizing Christianity; that Africa "will be sending missionaries to the USA."

I wonder what the "career path" will morph into, and what the Church will look like in the next two decades.

Mark

[Dennis M. Scott]

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus states “… I will build My church …”.
Considering the opposition (“… the gates of Hades …”), it would seem that only He is qualified & able to build His church.

Yet in recent years, I’ve been noticing a regular undercurrent of preaching that includes inducement to “build the kingdom” and “build the church” as the focus of our salvation, and an attempt to motivate audiences to act in specified ways. It seems to me that such teaching/preaching is non-Biblical (and non-Wesleyan?) and doomed to bring frustration on all.

Nowhere do I read that we (His disciples) are to build His church.
However we are given
1. the Great Command (love God with our whole being, and our neighbor as ourself), and
2. the Great Commission (make disciples).
... which seems to get infrequent sermon time, let alone serious discipleship attention in the overall "programs" of the Church.

What am I missing?

You apparently are missing the very clear message that Christ has said He will build His Church and we are to make disciples. Some of us have for some time said that when resource energies of "the Church" are collected to pay salaries, mortgages and sundry things other than to make disciples, we are missing what we are to be about. When so-called professionals become concerned more with fund raising to meet even legitimate needs more than the making of disicples, our reason to exist is being neglected. It is unfortunate if you have not been privy to emphasis on making disciples. Fortunately, what you have apparently experienced isn't the universal message. I have spent the last decade modeling the concept that clergy should not depend on the church solely for financial support. While that is not the only model pointed to in scripture, it is the model the apostle Paul chose.

The other side of the matter also needs to be recognized. To date, the most effective means of making disciples seems to have been within the broad context of the Church - which Christ is and has been building. If the casual observation is that man has been doing it, the truth has been hidden. I don't know many even in the local scene who are seeing the Church being built who think it is because of what they have done.

Even in the COTN, what used to be called Sunday School is now referred to as Sunday School and Discipleship. Reality is that the Sunday School has always been one of the most effective instruments for making disciples. Again, if that's not been the case where some have been, it is unfortunate. My personal feeling is that if either Sunday School or even church isn't contributing to the making of disciples, it's not worth doing. Even the Church Growth movement of a couple decades back was never intended to build the chuch, but to observe and identify what apparently was the most effective means of making disciples. In those situations where it was promoted otherwise, it was misrepresented.

Those who happen to know me know that I have been an avid proponent of starting new churches: those also know that I have vehemently insisted that new churches are for new believers, and not merely to redistribute believers who have already been in existing churches. Myriad studies have suggested that the most effective means of making new disciples is by starting new churches. Until the Lord reveals a more effective way to make disciples, we will do well to continue to do those things in which He seems pleased to enable us to make disciples.

It might be helpful to recognize a difference between making disciples and accumulating disciples. Additionally, some pastors see their responsibility to be makers of disciplers, rather than only making disciples. There will be some who see that as church building rather than making disciples.

So, I really don't know which parts you've been missing. At least you're now seeing things more clearly than you used to.

I have this notion that the Lord is beginning to show us there may be ways of making disciples more effectively than our traditional understanding of church. Stay tuned. In the meantime, now that we've been enlighted, we who have been so enlighted are responsible to act. In this case we now have no escuse for not being about making disciples. When each of us begins to effectively make disciples, we then will have earned the right to criticize and influence the church to do better.

[Gene Tatsch]

You apparently are missing the very clear message that Christ has said He will build His Church and we are to make disciples.

Some of us have for some time said that when resource energies of "the Church" are collected to pay salaries, mortgages and sundry things other than to make disciples, we are missing what we are to be about. ...

The other side of the matter also needs to be recognized. To date, the most effective means of making disciples seems to have been within the broad context of the Church - which Christ is and has been building. ...

Even in the COTN, what used to be called Sunday School is now referred to as Sunday School and Discipleship. ...

My personal feeling is that if either Sunday School or even church isn't contributing to the making of disciples, it's not worth doing. ...

I have this notion that the Lord is beginning to show us there may be ways of making disciples more effectively than our traditional understanding of church. ...

In the meantime, now that we've been enlighted, we who have been so enlighted are responsible to act. In this case we now have no escuse for not being about making disciples.

When each of us begins to effectively make disciples, we then will have earned the right to criticize and influence the church to do better.

THANKS Dennis - lots of good things to chew on here :basic05

I've been getting the "build the church/kingdom" from Nazarene preachers/pastors :basic04 And get "the glare" if I dare mention scripture to the contrary.
I strongly agree that if the church structure (local, district, general) is not clearly & intentionally assisting disciples make disciples, then its off-mission.
"... most effective means of making disciples ..." - I'll agree if its qualified somehow that the "church" is clearly & intentionally assisting disciples make disciples ... rather than salaries, mortages, etc.
From where I sit, the Sunday School & Discipleship name change looks a whole lot like the name change to (and then back) "Sunday School Ministries" of a few years ago. Again, from where I sit, its purely a word game without any visible corresponding action.
"... if either Sunday School or even church isn't contributing to the making of disciples, it's not worth doing...". I agree, and I see Scripture backing us up.
"... the Lord is beginning to show us there may be ways of making disciples more effectively than our traditional understanding of church. ..." Yes! We have His Word, His Spirit in us, others desperate for His manifest Presence ... so I, too, believe He is waking us up.

And, as individual disciples, not only are we required to make disciples now, but He is enabling us :basic05
And criticism? It better be constructive, its of His Bride!

gene --