Abuse in the Church of the Nazarene - how common?

[David Pettigrew]

A thread on the theology board is addressing the failures of the American Holiness Movement, and it brought this question to mind.

I really hope this thread does not cause unnecessary emotional pain for anyone, but I haven't really ever seen this topic addressed on this board.

How common was clergy sexual abuse in the Church of the Nazarene in the 20th Century?

I'm asking this because, in my ministry, I've encountered way too many little old ladies who were victims of sexual abuse at the hands of a pastor in their childhood. I'm not indicating it was rampant, but I've encountered it enough to begin to believe it was a problem.

Perhaps the CotN is no different than any other church from sixty years ago. I have come to believe, however, that the more a church treats sex as taboo or perverted, the more sexual abuse takes place in that movement.

[Hans Deventer]

I have come to believe, however, that the more a church treats sex as taboo or perverted, the more sexual abuse takes place in that movement.

You may be right in that. In our district's 30 years of existence, we had one pastor who was forced to resign his credentials because of abuse. That's the only statistic I know of.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I hate topics like this. They dredge up stuff that can't be safely discussed on a public forum, invite unfounded "someone told me" accusations, and invite criticism of the denomination without any hope of resolution.

[Bill Evans]

I don't know much about the problem of clergy sexual abuse in the CotN, but I am curious about the issue of online pornography addiction by clergy. Any thoughts from anyone?

[Mark Metcalfe]

I don't know much about the problem of clergy sexual abuse in the CotN, but I am curious about the issue of online pornography addiction by clergy. Any thoughts from anyone?

Posted in early February 2006: 1 out of 6 pastors are into pornography; 1 out of every 2 laymen are into pornography (Quoted by my pastor at a meeting for men at the church that February.)

Here is the note thread.Finding Victory over Pornography (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=2687)

Here is another thread on the link between porn and molestation. (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=15167)

Mark

[Billy Cox]

How common was clergy sexual abuse in the Church of the Nazarene in the 20th Century?

I'm asking this because, in my ministry, I've encountered way too many little old ladies who were victims of sexual abuse at the hands of a pastor in their childhood. I'm not indicating it was rampant, but I've encountered it enough to begin to believe it was a problem.


There seems to be no way to know for sure. I do know that the definition of sexual abuse has shifted and there is far less tolerance for it within a church community. My best friend in high school had an inappropriate relationship with a Nazaerene worship pastor. Maybe the worship pastor eventually got caught with his hand in a teen boy's cookie jar, but probably not. I suspect that such a person would not get away with it in today's environment.

I know that some of the heavy petting (between teens) that happened at camp or at youth lock-ins or road-trips when I was a teen in my local church would get a youth pastor fired if not sued and/or tried for negligence. As for me...I was a geeky kid, so I didn't get any action. :o


Perhaps the CotN is no different than any other church from sixty years ago. I have come to believe, however, that the more a church treats sex as taboo or perverted, the more sexual abuse takes place in that movement.

I have a theory that some pastors preach to their own temptations and failings. I don't fault them for that, but it looks pretty hyprocritical when the gay-bashing preacher turns out to be gay.

[David Pettigrew]

I hate topics like this. They dredge up stuff that can't be safely discussed on a public forum, invite unfounded "someone told me" accusations, and invite criticism of the denomination without any hope of resolution.

As moderator, you are certainly within your rights to delete the thread if you feel it is inappropriate. I don't feel any of your concerns have surfaced in this thread. In fact, it has generated very little response at all, publicly.

We're only as sick as our secrets. I do not believe acknowledging that abuse happened, and perhaps was more common than we'd like to admit, is slandering the denomination.

I have many horrifying stories I could post, and originally included a couple when I was composing the opening post, then didn't include them exactly for the reasons you cited.

The point is not to air dirty laundry, or even give victims a place to tell their story. The question is - in the Church of the Nazarene of the 20th Century, did the overemphasis on "things" (practical holiness), coupled with the denial that sanctified people could struggle with sin (especially sexual sin) contribute to an environment conducive to sexual abuse?

If someone wants to come on here and throw unsubstantiated bombs at the church, I'll be the first to publicly call them on it.

The fact we are so uncomfortable talking about this speaks to the problem and confirms my fears.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

As moderator, you are certainly within your rights to delete the thread if you feel it is inappropriate.

Had I thought you were breaking NazNet rules I would have said so and acted accordingly.

I don't feel any of your concerns have surfaced in this thread. In fact, it has generated very little response at all, publicly.

I'm glad for that. As I said there is no way victims can discuss this topic in a safe way on a public forum. One reason for my responding to you was to try to blunt the possible outcomes of your post.


We're only as sick as our secrets. I do not believe acknowledging that abuse happened, and perhaps was more common than we'd like to admit, is slandering the denomination.

I don't agree that declining to discuss a personal violation on a public forum is sick, in fact, I think it may be the very opposite of that. And I don't think cringing from seeing it dredged up in this way is the same thing as refusing to acknowledge that it has happened.

I have many horrifying stories I could post, and originally included a couple when I was composing the opening post, then didn't include them exactly for the reasons you cited.

Good. I can only hope that others will follow your lead. However, I've been around NazNet long enough to fear that you are doing more harm than good in some cases.

The point is not to air dirty laundry, or even give victims a place to tell their story. The question is - in the Church of the Nazarene of the 20th Century, did the overemphasis on "things" (practical holiness), coupled with the denial that sanctified people could struggle with sin (especially sexual sin) contribute to an environment conducive to sexual abuse?

Yes, I understand that you want to have a theoretical discussion, which I think would be fine in a closed situation. However, I don't think it is worth the negatives that I listed.

If someone wants to come on here and throw unsubstantiated bombs at the church, I'll be the first to publicly call them on it.
The fact we are so uncomfortable talking about this speaks to the problem and confirms my fears.

It crossed my mind that objecting to this topic might just set me up as one participating in some massive cover up conspiracy or even that I have something to hide. Well, neither is true and I carefully listed my objections to make that clear. I just think some discussions don't work on a public forum. I think they bring up things that can't be resolved in this type of communications, I think they encourage gossip and innuendo, and give outsiders an unreal opinion of the Church.

[Ryan Scott]

I think it's far more common than we realize. I'm guessing there's no one taking statistics on it, though. Not long ago I would have claimed it a rare occurrence, but over the last year, I've known of so many incidents (some criminal, some not, all inappropriate) that I think it's something to be concerned about, especially in the area of prevention.

For small congregations, rules like "two adults must be physically present with any minors at all times" seems silly or too restrictive, but I think that is the price to be paid for the safety of all involved. I know of one pastor who will not be alone with any person outside his family (male or female) under any circumstances where they are not in plain view of someone.

People do need to decide what measures are important to ensure they are living up to their responsibility.

[David Pettigrew]

I don't know much about the problem of clergy sexual abuse in the CotN, but I am curious about the issue of online pornography addiction by clergy. Any thoughts from anyone?

Sex addiction is sex addiction, whether it plays out in the form of the pastor who abuses, the pastor who engages in numerous adulterous affairs, or the pastor who spends all his time in the office on pornographic web sites. Somehow in the church, we may have inadvertently fostered an environment that lends itself to sex addiction in clergy, rather than combats it. I do see this changing with the advent of accountability software, church based recovery programs (Celebrate Recovery, for example), a change in emphasis on what ministry is and the type of people it attracts, and more and better restoration processes for those caught in the sexual addiction trap.

I believe it was a bigger problem in our history than we may have imagined, simply because none of the above tools were available, it's a much easier addiction to hide than alcoholism, for instance, and it wasn't safe to talk about until recently.

[David Pettigrew]

I know that some of the heavy petting (between teens) that happened at camp or at youth lock-ins or road-trips when I was a teen in my local church would get a youth pastor fired if not sued and/or tried for negligence. As for me...I was a geeky kid, so I didn't get any action. :o

That's a relief, since I seem to recall sharing a bus seat with you on Houston First's old "Happy Bus" on the way to camp one year. I remember it so vividly because the bus broke down, and the youth pastor/driver walked to get help, stopping and eating lunch at McDonald's while 50 teens and sponsors sweltered in the bus on the side of the highway.

[David Pettigrew]

I don't agree that declining to discuss a personal violation on a public forum is sick, in fact, I think it may be the very opposite of that. And I don't think cringing from seeing it dredged up in this way is the same thing as refusing to acknowledge that it has happened.

It crossed my mind that objecting to this topic might just set me up as one participating in some massive cover up conspiracy or even that I have something to hide. Well, neither is true and I carefully listed my objections to make that clear. I just think some discussions don't work on a public forum. I think they bring up things that can't be resolved in this type of communications, I think they encourage gossip and innuendo, and give outsiders an unreal opinion of the Church.

By "sick as our secrets", I'm not implying those who have suffered abuse at the hands of a church leader should choose this format to confess it, although I would encourage them to seek help. I mean that if there is a higher occurrence of clergy abuse in the CotN than in the church at large, and we don't talk about it out of fear, we are exacerbating the problem rather than resolving it.

I certainly was not implying any involvement in anything on your part, Scott, or anyone's. I was commenting on the fact that there is no shortage of topics on Naznet on how the Church of the Nazarene messed up. This thread has generated relatively little feedback so far (although I have received some private communication), and received an almost immediate negative reaction. Somehow, this topic is different than abuse of money or a discussion of bad district leadership. Again, this confirms my fears that this may be too painful for too many people to address.

I do not believe there is some conspiracy at the top to cover up clergy abuse.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

By "sick as our secrets", I'm not implying those who have suffered abuse at the hands of a church leader should choose this format to confess it, although I would encourage them to seek help. I mean that if there is a higher occurrence of clergy abuse in the CotN than in the church at large, and we don't talk about it out of fear, we are exacerbating the problem rather than resolving it.

I understood that to be your meaning and realize my wording probably left the impression that I thought otherwise.

I certainly was not implying any involvement in anything on your part, Scott, or anyone's.

I do not believe there is some conspiracy at the top to cover up clergy abuse.

I didn't think you were implying any of that - just that I realized that my objections could be interrupted as I mentioned.

[Mike Schutz]

I have several friends who were sexually abused by youth pastors.

When I was teaching I was often approached by senior pastors wanting a reference for a staff position. On more than one occasion I gave a negative recommendation based upon character issues and the student was hired anyway. One of these situations resulted in sexual abuse.

Very few times have I been shocked when a former student of mine participates in behavior which hurts others and brings pain into the life of innocent victims. The clues were there.

However, it is difficult to give a negative recommendation based upon character issues. One one occasion, following such a recommendation, I was contacted by a lawyer for the family of a former student, threatening legal action against me if I ever gave a negative recommendation. I had reported to a pastor that the student had cheated on a test and handed in someone else's work. In the future my response was, "I would not hire the student."

[Karen Mercer]

Probably at least 30 to 50 percent of the women I know have been sexually abused. (It amazes me how girls who have been abused find other girls who have been abused to talk to.) A friend of mine in BNC who was undergoing counselling for that said that she was aware of a large number of girls who had been molested by their pastors or their pastor fathers. She didn't give me a concrete number but it was a scary thing to hear.

[Diane Likens]

Probably at least 30 to 50 percent of the women I know have been sexually abused. (It amazes me how girls who have been abused find other girls who have been abused to talk to.)

Sadly, Karen, I don't think it's just that abused girls find each other. I think the statistic of 30 - 50% of women have been abused. Period.

Maybe the statistics will improve with coming generations -- we don't tend to sweep this stuff under the rug anymore.

[Hans Deventer]

I have to admit I am totally shocked by these statistics, and as a man, ashamed as well. There never ever is any justification for this terrible kind of abuse, and I cringe at what the effects it must have had on the victims.
It does help me to understand where a some feminist theology comes from, and why the limiting to male concepts when speaking of God is so unacceptable for the women whose image of a heavenly Father has been so draconically distorted by men. I truly wonder why this isn't as much (or more) of an issue than abortion or homosexuality or euthanasia.

[Ken Pell]

I have a hard time believing those statistics are correct. what are they based on? I am flabbergasted by them.

[Ken Pell]

By "sick as our secrets", I'm not implying those who have suffered abuse at the hands of a church leader should choose this format to confess it, although I would encourage them to seek help. I mean that if there is a higher occurrence of clergy abuse in the CotN than in the church at large, and we don't talk about it out of fear, we are exacerbating the problem rather than resolving it.

What would lead you to think we would have a "higher occurrence of clergy abuse in the CotN than in the church at large"?

I certainly was not implying any involvement in anything on your part, Scott, or anyone's. I was commenting on the fact that there is no shortage of topics on Naznet on how the Church of the Nazarene messed up. This thread has generated relatively little feedback so far (although I have received some private communication), and received an almost immediate negative reaction. Somehow, this topic is different than abuse of money or a discussion of bad district leadership. Again, this confirms my fears that this may be too painful for too many people to address.

I do not believe there is some conspiracy at the top to cover up clergy abuse.

It could also be suggesting things are not as bad as you assume they are and some of us have no frame of reference or experiences that afford discussion of the topic.

It does not mean you are right at all.

In fact, I pray to the living God that you are completely wrong.

[Ryan Scott]

In a quick search around the internet, I keep seeing the figure "1 in 6 women in the US will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime," with the vast majority of those being rape. From a little further reading, it seems like these statistics just cover rape or attempted rape; I imagine a more inclusive definition of sexual abuse added to the number of women who never admit it publicly - we could get to 30% pretty easily.

[Paula Karr]

I have a hard time believing those statistics are correct. what are they based on? I am flabbergasted by them.

If you do any type of search on Google, you'll find those numbers to be confirmed by any number of studies. These are NOT the clergy figures, but the overall figures.

I believe them to be correct. I was one of them.

I really appreciated Hans' comment about how reading this has opened his mind to a better understanding of why some women become more feminist in their leanings and have trouble understanding God as a loving Father. I praise God for His healing of my emotions, and for giving me a husband who helped me to learn to trust men -- earthly and Heavenly.

Paula

[Ken Pell]

In a quick search around the internet, I keep seeing the figure "1 in 6 women in the US will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime," with the vast majority of those being rape. From a little further reading, it seems like these statistics just cover rape or attempted rape; I imagine a more inclusive definition of sexual abuse added to the number of women who never admit it publicly - we could get to 30% pretty easily.

That is overwhelming to me. The thought of every third woman in my parish being victimized is almost more than I can take in. I am literally setting here stunned by the possibility.

[David Pettigrew]

What would lead you to think we would have a "higher occurrence of clergy abuse in the CotN than in the church at large"?



It could also be suggesting things are not as bad as you assume they are and some of us have no frame of reference or experiences that afford discussion of the topic.

It does not mean you are right at all.

In fact, I pray to the living God that you are completely wrong.

How could asking a question be right or wrong? That's why I used the all important IF. I didn't come on here with guns blazing saying there is an epidemic of clergy sexual abuse in the CotN. I said I have encountered enough stories to believe it is possibly more common than we may believe. I also said we may be no different than any other church from the days when such things were covered up.

The question was, IF there is a higher occurrence in the CotN than in other denominations - say, Methodists, for example - then are there factors in our history, polity, and doctrine that contribute?

For instance, I think the argument could be made that the prohibition in the Roman Catholic church of priests marrying, combined with a repressive view of human sexuality and a highly authoritative ecclesiastical administrative system, may have contributed to the priest sex abuse crisis they have faced in the last decade, which has basically bankrupt some diocese, not to mention countless ruined lives.

Were there similar factors in the Holiness Movement of the 20th Century, specifically in the period from the 1930s to the 1980s, when legalism was much more of an issue?

It's a legitimate question, and I am frustrated by the attack it has received.

[David Pettigrew]

Let's say the numbers of women abused in the Church of the Nazarene are no different than the population at large. In other words, there has been no higher (or lower) occurrence of childhood sexual abuse for women growing up in the holiness movement than for women who did not. Is this something to be relieved about, or cause for concern because our message of holiness really made no difference?

[Ken Pell]

Let's say the numbers of women abused in the Church of the Nazarene are no different than the population at large. In other words, there has been no higher (or lower) occurrence of childhood sexual abuse for women growing up in the holiness movement than for women who did not. Is this something to be relieved about, or cause for concern because our message of holiness really made no difference?

No attack was intended.

And rather than respond anymore I will let you have your thread, frame your questions, and let others respond in a way that does not make you feel "attacked."

Adios.

[David Pettigrew]

No attack was intended.

And rather than respond anymore I will let you have your thread, frame your questions, and let others respond in a way that does not make you feel "attacked."

Adios.

I don't feel attacked. I feel my question was attacked, as in it should never have been asked in the first place.

I apologize for my defensiveness. Your yankee forthrightness often comes across as rude to my southern eyes.

I wasn't singling you out, Ken. I was talking about Scott's original concern as well.

Sianara.

[Paula Karr]

Let's say the numbers of women abused in the Church of the Nazarene are no different than the population at large. In other words, there has been no higher (or lower) occurrence of childhood sexual abuse for women growing up in the holiness movement than for women who did not. Is this something to be relieved about, or cause for concern because our message of holiness really made no difference?


Bear this in mind, David. Some of us "grew up in the holiness movement" (I became a Nazarene by choice when I was 12), but my abuser (my step-father) was not a Christian. The message of holiness made no difference to him, but being involved with the church probably saved my life -- I know it saved my sanity and helped me to see that life had more to offer than what I knew at home.

Having said that, I do believe that there are way too many "Christian" men who prey upon the vulnerability of others. (More than "zero" equals way too many.) My finite mind can not begin to understand what the Lord will say to them when they face their final judgment. But I don't think He's going to be very pleased.

And, David, I want to applaud you for bringing this topic up. Seeing that it has opened the eyes of a few who have posted here is good. Knowledge is power. We can't fight an enemy we don't know. We can't support people who are recovering from abuse that we don't recognize as happening to the degree it is.

(Can we get a "High 5" button?)

Thank you,
Paula

[Susan Unger]

Bear this in mind, David. Some of us "grew up in the holiness movement" (I became a Nazarene by choice when I was 12), but my abuser (my step-father) was not a Christian. The message of holiness made no difference to him, but being involved with the church probably saved my life -- I know it saved my sanity and helped me to see that life had more to offer than what I knew at home.

Where I used to live, I knew of some women like yourself that grew up sexually abused along with other forms of abuse. They found church [even my nazarene church with its plethora of troubles and legalism] to be a lifesaver. But for each of them, their abuse happened in their non-christian home not in a church setting.

Having said that, I do believe that there are way too many "Christian" men who prey upon the vulnerability of others. (More than "zero" equals way too many.) My finite mind can not begin to understand what the Lord will say to them when they face their final judgment. But I don't think He's going to be very pleased.

There's a book I have copyrighted 1990 called Christian Men who Hate Women. I bought in 91 cuz such a title seemed to have mutually exclusive ideas in it. At the time, I hadn't seen too much of the world outside of Olivet and my little church to really understand what the author was saying. Now, after learning of 4 christian friends marriages that went south, I fully see the insights of the book. 2 were non-nazarene [and not necessarily born again at the time of marriage] and 2 were nazarene. The nazarene ones had other forms of abuse so I am speaking generally about my experiences. One friend's ex has had christian misogynism so throughly entrenched in his family and non-nazarene church that he honestly believes that she has sinned for not submitting to him and the abuse. That is so scary to me - cuz it shows that his heart is hard to the conviction of the HS.

In a nutshell, misogynism can exist in a person regardless of whether one is 'saved' or 'unsaved' because the influences on a person before salvation often have a stronger pull than salvation or God. In fact, religious misogynism is worse because the abuser will add in such things as "God says in this verse that you have to obey me. So if you fight this, then you are going to Hell." If the abusee doesn't have proper bible teaching or a good role model to follow, the abusee will submit thinking she is doing God's will ~ though she feels miserable.

I took notes [which I can email as attachments] on this if anyone wants more details from the book on how misogynism takes root in christians.

[Susan Unger]

I have encountered enough stories to believe it is possibly more common than we may believe. I also said we may be no different than any other church from the days when such things were covered up.

Thinking of your question if there was something in particular about our doctrine that could contribute to a pastor abusing, I know of one nazarene pastor in particular who was very misogynistic. I never heard of anyone accusing of of sexual abuse [though could be possible], but he was abusive in so many other ways. I wouldn't say that he was abusive due to a twisted version of our doctrine [ie. I'm saved and sanctified so what I am doing now is just a mistake not a sin]. The impression I got was he was misogynistic etc for the same reason that my friend's ex from the non-nazarene backround was misogynistic. His family background and lack of proper theological training produced a misogynist. And when someone is closed minded to things of the Spirit, it is hard for God to convict that person of his hatred and prejudice.

But this is one nazarene pastor that I know. I can't really speak about all the other naz pastors who have issues like this.

[Hans Deventer]

I don't feel attacked. I feel my question was attacked, as in it should never have been asked in the first place.

David, I understand Scott's fear but so far, I think this has been a very good thread and I am grateful for you having had the guts to start it.

[Gina Stevenson]

Probably at least 30 to 50 percent of the women I know have been sexually abused. (It amazes me how girls who have been abused find other girls who have been abused to talk to.) A friend of mine in BNC who was undergoing counselling for that said that she was aware of a large number of girls who had been molested by their pastors or their pastor fathers. She didn't give me a concrete number but it was a scary thing to hear.

Sadly, Karen, I don't think it's just that abused girls find each other. I think the statistic of 30 - 50% of women have been abused. Period.

Maybe the statistics will improve with coming generations -- we don't tend to sweep this stuff under the rug anymore.

Yes, with such high statistics, it's hard not to run into someone like this. If I were to write a list of those who've told me they've been, or of whom I knew due to other circumstances (such as divorces caused by this) ... what a (sadly) long list!

I have to admit I am totally shocked by these statistics, and as a man, ashamed as well. There never ever is any justification for this terrible kind of abuse, and I cringe at what the effects it must have had on the victims.
It does help me to understand where a some feminist theology comes from, and why the limiting to male concepts when speaking of God is so unacceptable for the women whose image of a heavenly Father has been so draconically distorted by men. I truly wonder why this isn't as much (or more) of an issue than abortion or homosexuality or euthanasia.

Yes, it seems that with these numbers, there are possibly more women who have been abused sexually than who have had an abortion, even.

In a quick search around the internet, I keep seeing the figure "1 in 6 women in the US will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime," with the vast majority of those being rape. From a little further reading, it seems like these statistics just cover rape or attempted rape; I imagine a more inclusive definition of sexual abuse added to the number of women who never admit it publicly - we could get to 30% pretty easily.

Yes, I do know of a couple of people who've told me they've been raped in years past (once they've gotten to where they could talk about it, I guess), and definitely had not reported it back when it happened. Yet another sad statistic ... those who've not reported due to fear, embarrassment, "victim's blame" (in some cases), etc.

[Robert McLemore]

A thread on the theology board is addressing the failures of the American Holiness Movement, and it brought this question to mind.

I really hope this thread does not cause unnecessary emotional pain for anyone, but I haven't really ever seen this topic addressed on this board.

How common was clergy sexual abuse in the Church of the Nazarene in the 20th Century?

I'm asking this because, in my ministry, I've encountered way too many little old ladies who were victims of sexual abuse at the hands of a pastor in their childhood. I'm not indicating it was rampant, but I've encountered it enough to begin to believe it was a problem.

Perhaps the CotN is no different than any other church from sixty years ago. I have come to believe, however, that the more a church treats sex as taboo or perverted, the more sexual abuse takes place in that movement.

David, the last part about the taboo, that may be true. In my family there are a few cases of this, and definitely not proud to say so, one inside the church and one out, not CotN, but a Holiness one and a clergyman, sad to say. In both cases, the victim had a hard time accepting God as father figure, and still do have some trust issues also. Both are women and over 40, and still sufering from this.

[Anita F. Henck]

While never the victim of sexual abuse myself, I can speak from two perspectives -- my role in working with students at a Nazarene college and as a layperson in a church that handled abuse badly.

In the first situation, I'll simply report that moving onto a Christian college campus was sometimes a lifesaver for young women. Late at night in the residence hall, as conversations unfolded, it was sometimes enlightening for them to realize that their past treatment at the hands of family members and/or church staff was unusual or inappropriate. The availability of Christian counselors and the support of fellow students, faculty, and staff made the difference in many lives.

Years ago, Bill and I were pulled into a difficult situation that was handled badly. In short, a teenage PK reported to a public school counselor that she was the victim of inappropriate sexual contact by her Nazarene pastor father. There was a hearing and she was removed from the home and put in foster care. The church was unaware of the situation. The teenager shared this with lay youth staff who asked us for advice. We helped contact a DS who talked with the pastor. In the process, our identity was revealed (despite being promised anonymity). The pastor began to rail against Bill and me for being "out to destroy his ministry". We were threatened with a lawsuit and lived through a very difficult period of attacks from the pulpit, phone calls, and public pressure.

Behind the scenes, the pastor was encouraged to resign which he did. He claimed that his ministry was destroyed and promised to move into secular employment. Consequently, his credentials weren't pulled. Within two years, he was back in ministry ... in the Church of the Nazarene.

It took us quite awhile to regain the confidence of many. We never told anyone what we knew -- except the DS and the church board secretary. While it was a frightening time, I'd do the same thing again; the young woman deserved better support. A system that attacks victims and their supporters isn't a good system. Hopefully, there has been progress since those days.

[David Pettigrew]

Several of you have touched upon the secondary concern - how abusers have been dealt with by the church. It's obviously a whole different ballgame today than it was in generations past, as evidenced by a couple of high profile cases in the last couple of years, both of which resulted in incarceration.

I certainly hope we are past the days when a predator was simply bought a train ticket out of town, or, in one horrifying instance I know of, simply "prayed out" of the church!

Here's a wonderful, straight forward statement from the board of general supt's. on Clergy Sexual Abuse in the Church of the Nazarene. (http://www.nazarene.org/ministries/superintendents/statements/clergyabuse/display.aspx)

[Ryan Scott]

Google news recently alerted me to yet another such case pending. I think it's as big of a deal for the Church of the Nazarene as any other denomination.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Fortunately, the Church has also been a source of comfort and healing for many abuse victims. I suspect the field of people in the COTN may not be representative of society in general: they may be a population that comes to the church open for healing and dealing with their tragic experiences. Additionally, the church provides avenues for such to be handled, as some in this thread have mentioned.

A single transgression is too many, and unfortunately there doesn't appear to be significant statistic differences within from without. Sexual abuse is but one in a cluster of sexual issues we don't handle well. Prevention obviously is better than treatment, but we who are informed can at least be aware that around us are countless persons who need the love of God in Christ. May even more make their way to Him for healing.

To any who might be reading this and privately hurting, please know that God offers you hope and healing. Some of us do care. I am praying for you.

[Dan Woods]

There is always that need to remember that Actions speak louder then words.

The devils two strongest footholds in the church are secrecy and silence. You cant forget either that money makes the world go around and it definately keeps this discussion from going beyond certain points. John 8:32 says that "those that believe in Him will know the truth and the truth will set them free". Can we honestly speak of this cancer in our church, I would say not. Because that exposes our issues and no one wants to discuss that. That may cause us pain. But we only turn back to God when the pain finally gets so bad that we can't ignore it any longer, or it personally affects a person in leadership that it brings the issue front and center.

It is great that the "Generals" have masterd a well written statement on Clergy Abuse. But does it go further then that, again I would have to say "No". Actions speak louder then words, regardless if they are spoken or written out on fancy papers, and signed by well educated people.

Speaking from experience, I just recently was served divorce papers from my wife and mother of our teenage children. We hit a bump in the road and her childhood pastor that has always been against our marriage, ran her straight to the divorce attorney and has paid for her divorce and is housing her right now. But what can one do when that same man is on the District Advisory Board. He has a well developed reputation on the the outside. Inside he has been against my marriage to my wife since day one.

What other reason do you have that explains what causes a man of God to hold onto anger, to a man for over ten years, never once trying to bond with him, or reconcile a marriage, if he is in fact out for the best interest of my wife or his position. His position and M-Div from NTS teaches that divorce isn't God's will.

When they met he was supposedly acting in a proffessional position as what he calls himself "her spiritual advisor". She was a very beautiful young girl when he took her in under his wing like she was his pet project. She was from a very broken home and very vulnerable with no father figure in front of her. He claims her as his daughter now and calls the kids his grandkids. But has never once called me his son or acknowledged that I exhist. He has sat me down though and told me that I have never been his choice to be the husband to my wife.

Now we know the Bible says that God hates divorce. Our marriage ceremonies end with "what God has brought together, let no man seperate". Our manual says reconcilliation before anything else, if at all possible. He is reinforcing to my wife and kids though that this is "God's Will".

There is of course more to this, but I dont want to be censored for that.

But you can say all that you want that we are a "Holiness" people. But when it comes down to it, I have made one person who helped author that great statement of this subject aware of my situation and have only been told that I best just seek counseling for the divorce and I guess move on with life? Makes you wonder if it was even looked at, at all. "Hey Bob, I got this e-mail....what do you know? Oh he is a great man of God and a right hand man to me! Oh I'm sorry to have only taken this allegation of abuse lightly and bothered you with this! That's all right"

Do we just talk the talk, or walk the walk? There is serious abuse from our clergy as they abuse their power in horrible situations. Why is it that you have to go outside our church to get assistance to save the lives being damaged by our damaged people? Hurt people, hurt people, and changed people, change people.

Never Ever Forget: ALL THAT IS NEEDED FOR EVIL TO PREVAIL IS FOR GOOD MEN AND WOMEN TO DO NOTHING!!!!!!! If we dont talk about the sin, we can't talk about the Grace of God's love to get beyond this issue.......

You can't change what you won't acknowledge!!!!!!!

[Barb Bouldrey]

Why limit the incident of abuse to women? Boys are also abused by men and women in churches.

Since the Fall of Man there has been sexual abuse in all levels of society. In the church I am sure it has happened since the beginning of the church.

I have heard of pastors who get involved with other women in the church because of problems in their own marriages.

I have heard of pastors get involved with girls or women because they are flattered by the attention and respect they get when counseling these gals who come to them for help.

I have heard of pastors who get involved with women on the internet and meet them in person, destroying their ministries and marriages.

Abuse? I think abuse would be a low percentage of our pastors. Sexual immorality is a much higher percentage.

I do believe that when a pastor or other worker in the church gets sexually involved with a teenager it IS abuse, even if consensual.

Why should we be surprised that Satan uses sexual temptations to defeat our clery? They are just as human as laymen.

And what about pastors that are abused by women that go after them until they yeild? Or the pastors who are falsely accused because some gal wanted attention and did not get it? I have known of that, also.

As in any place in life, if a person is abused by anyone, it should be reported. It is not just a church matter, it is a legal matter. Every child should be taught about wrong touches and to report them immediately....no matter where it happens.

Pastors are warned about sexual misconduct and temptation and how to counsel people of the opposite sex but often get lazy in their caution. Also, they are fooled that the internet porn is safe and not harmful.

Every one of us need to be on guard against the tricks of Satan. He uses the good things of life and twists them to try to destroy the elect.

Barb

[Dan Woods]

Look at all these stories that people have opened up about, and you see statistics prove that it is out there. The problem is that we dont acknowledge it.

Our denomination needs to realize that woundedness happens to our pastors as well. Not addressing that issue leads to abuse of others. Pastoral burnout leads to a loss of their first love with God and then the door is opened for satans evil sceams. Then they are so scared to come forward and ask for help because we do a great job of shooting our wounded. But that doesnt excuse the abuse they cause.

What it does mean is that those at the Top need to step up to their responsibility to turn this ship around. We will have growth beyond our wildest dreams when we quit hiding our issues. The world will see that we arent just well dressed suits playing church. We no longer can live by the world view of "I'm ok, your ok" because that is just a lie. Truth and statistics say what really needs said is "Your'e messed up, I'm messed up, let me help you get over it". We all have baggage, there are just too many at the top that have got focused on outward appearance. The day we start addressing the issues is the day that God brings revival back to our churches.

There are laws against pastoral abuse, our manual says that pastors are held to a higher standard as they should. But hiding from the issue only makes it worse for all those that know it is happening and do nothing when they hear about it. As I said previously I made a "General" aware of the issue and I did not get a response of we are going to look into this, and we need this. There was no request for more information. It was politely swept under the carpet.

Yes there are plenty of false accusations and a need to be careful. But when it is as blatant as a pastor paying for a divorce without even attempting reconcilliation, that is just as blatant as you can be in violation of our manual. To do nothing when you have knowledge is just you becoming another one of the abusers.

Since there is no reliable avenue to seek help: if you are a victim, family, or friend of someone being abused there are those out there that want to help. Please go to thehopeofsurvivors.com. They are there to lend a hand knowing that it is something that does happen.

Until the head turns back to God, the sheep will continue to be abused and the issue (sin) continues. Yes I am very upset as it is my wife who is being taken away by a "Man of God" and further victimized. This story is much like that of David, a "Man of God" taking away the forbidden things he knows he cant have and then destroys the one man in his way. Under the cloak of authority as a Senior pastor he abuses his responsibility and yet I sit here as he has moved my wife into his lair. Predatory pastors who have been doing their craft for a long time have a lot of victims. Is that what scares people from doing their job to correct the issue. Money makes the world go around and that is what scares people, law suits. If you dont want the problem, address the issue before it gets out of control. Do the job, or get out of the way so that someone with a spine and passion for the lost can turn this world upside down.

[Mike Smiley]

I don't think sex abuse is any greater in the church than it is in the general population. The press just loves to blow it sky high so they can make secular points against anything reglious. The Catholics were the first targets, but you notice they were careful not to identify any of the priests as homosexual as they had to be PC in their attacks. Not to worry, read the last chaper of the Book. We still win. God weeds out the tares!

[Dan Woods]

Mike,

The church reflects way too much of the world. That is exactly our problem. As the church, we are called by God to be set apart from the standards of this world. To be above what the world tolerates.

But evangelicals are either known to be too legalistic or just nothing at all. We are called to hate the sin but love the sinner. We just like the pharisees have gone back to legalism and expect sinners to come to church after they have met our qualifications. God sent His Son because of our sin. He paid the price for admission.

We cant turn our eyes from sin that is in the church because we just reflect what is happening in society. We need to live above that. Divorce is rampant in the church and outside. Because in the church we are called to look good at all times. Look at the mission field, we go to places where clothes are optional and dress the pastor up in a suit as we have taken a tradition that man created, then tell them that when you come to Christ you must ft in this box to preach the word of God. That is what builds lazy Chrsitians, Paul said "the priesthood of all believers". Too many people in church think the pastor is supposed to do it all and they sit back and demand to be entertained.

We need to stop entertaining pew potaoes and start changing our world. It starts here, with us in the CotN. Or change the name to Country Club of the Nazarene. We are called to be lifesaving stations. How many churches are growing, how many are dying? Are we doing it right. Not when we have sin living in it. But who am I too say as I was told to be shut up about my situation, even threatened.

[Mike Smiley]

The Church will always reflect what the world looks like. As people of the world continue to come into it, it will appear to look just like the world on the surface. What has to change is the people after they have met Christ. What I meant in my post was that the Church is no different than the general population in it's share of charlatans and perverts, crooks, liars and cheats. They are there. Along with the legalists, the PC crowd, the holier than thou's, the this is our church crowds, don't sit on our pew people etc. Every church has them. I could go on and on naming a lot of other categories but then I would probably get gagged and bound. But we have to be careful in how we approach some subjects. I for one sometimes just like to use common sense. I don't think it takes a theological degree to understand what Jesus means when he asks simple questions. When he asked Peter if he loved Him, the answer was not rocket science. But it will get you into heaven.That is what the Church has to focus on. That is what we as individuals have to focus on. I have been a Nazarene since 1972 and I have seen this denomination do some great things. I have a copy of the original manual. It is only 79 pages. Now we have a millstone around our knecks. I am a retired Army Master Sergeant, soon to be a retired High School teacher in June 2009, and on Social Security in January 2009. I fear for our Church because our leaders are not leading by example. Jesus did. And believe it or not, the Army emulates the example of Jesus in it's leadership classes. They taught us to lead our men as He did, in small groups, focused on a mission, and never quitting until you had achieved success.

[Dan Woods]

Amen Mike,

I have been told by our associate that I am following Satan now as I have brought allegations against a "Man of God". How dare I try to bring light into darkness. He has told me that I dont follow God as I have yelled in my house. What man wouldnt get upset that their wife is leaving him at the direction of her pastor, she's moving in with him?

But as I said before. even the Generals are now going to be making changes to their position on Divorce. As pastors (at least in Ohio) are now paying for Divorces. Does that mean that we need to start tracking that along with attendance?

God needs to lead our church, not all these prideful people that have put their title before all else. I was told to silence my accusations or face liability issues if I didnt stop. It is much easier to make threats and allow abuse then it is to re-attach the spine and stand for what you say you believe!

[David Pettigrew]

Amen Mike,

I have been told by our associate that I am following Satan now as I have brought allegations against a "Man of God". How dare I try to bring light into darkness. He has told me that I dont follow God as I have yelled in my house. What man wouldnt get upset that their wife is leaving him at the direction of her pastor, she's moving in with him?

But as I said before. even the Generals are now going to be making changes to their position on Divorce. As pastors (at least in Ohio) are now paying for Divorces. Does that mean that we need to start tracking that along with attendance?

God needs to lead our church, not all these prideful people that have put their title before all else. I was told to silence my accusations or face liability issues if I didnt stop. It is much easier to make threats and allow abuse then it is to re-attach the spine and stand for what you say you believe!

Hi Dan,

It sounds like you are going through an increadibly painful divorce. I hope you find naznet to be a good place of fellowship and healing through that process.

Please take what I'm about to say in the spirit of loving concern. I would just caution you that in these litigous days, anything said in a public forum is just that - public. If there's any pending litigation between you, your wife, or any other party, I wouldn't get too detailed here. Just a friendly bit of free advice, which is worth every penny you paid for it!

May God draw you close during what I'm sure is a difficult season for you this year.

[Susan Unger]

Amen Mike,

I have been told by our associate that I am following Satan now as I have brought allegations against a "Man of God". How dare I try to bring light into darkness. He has told me that I dont follow God as I have yelled in my house. What man wouldnt get upset that their wife is leaving him at the direction of her pastor, she's moving in with him?


I feel for you Dan with your marriage situation.

[Dan Woods]

Dave,

I appreciate the concern. But, what more can I lose. I have lost my wife of 14 years, a 13 year old daughter, and 11 year old son. All under the advice of a Senior Pastor who is also on the District Advisory Board. I have no avenue to address it through the proper channels as the road begins at the source.

The only thing they can't take away from is the "Truth" and that is what the devil is trying to keep hidden so he can control this situation. Why is it that one church pays for Divorce when the denomination says divorce is wrong?

If we dont talk about the issue it gets swept back under. Am I now going to be barred from speaking the truth here?

[Mike Smiley]

My heart goes out to you Dan. Truth is a very hard thing to fight against or for. I have had some very pointed discussions with my pastor concerning issues in the church about things that were obvious against what the church was supposed to stand for, according to the manual, and what members were openly doing and advocating. I was shut down in the interest of harmony and peace. I really think it was in the interest if tithes and offerings first though. In my previous post I said our leaders were not leading by example. I meant it. In my Army experience I know what leading by example is. Our present leaders come out of higher education and seem to be looking for higher rewards here on earth. Jesus counseled people to just go and sin no more. Now we have pastors performing all sorts of counseling and some of them ending up with someone elses wife?
I prefer the counsel of Jesus. Look at all the pain and suffering we see around us and all the high powered educational programs and people we have to help them. And Jesus says, "Go and sin no more". Pretty simple. That applies to all of us, including the leaders. That is why Jesus implies during his ministry that very few will make it into heaven. Straight is the path and narrow is the gate and few that will enter into it. Take heart Dan. You will be fine. Just trust in Him.

[Dan Woods]

Mike,

Thank You again. Being in the Air Force for 11 years myself I am one who believes in leadership from the front. I have one pastor telling me that I am following satan and he seems to be an expert in how my house operates with only being there maybe 4 hours in the last two years. So now he is even guiding my wife that divorce is ok. He knows that this other pastor is doing innapropriate things but wont bring that up to anyone else. The Good Ole Boy Networkis alive and well in this situation.

Why is it that a man comes before God in finding justice. It is God's name that needs protected. Especially when abuse is basically being sponsored by the church, if the church knows of bad pastors and does nothing, they are basically codoning it. They pay his paycheck and allow the action. That is what they call liability.

But i have only been threatened and warned that I could face a lawsuit if I tarnish an abusing pastor's name as that brings a bad appearance to the CothN.

Where is the concern there, for the victims or the abuser? It is very obvious since he is still asisting my wife on this road and searching out ways to keep me silenced now.

[Mike Smiley]

Dan, You are really hurting. It must be especially hard on you today. Take time to focus on your relationship with God. We forget in our hour of need that God has us in the palm of His hand. Instead, like the children of Israel, we are afraid we are going to be destroyed by the enemy. And our enemy Satan comes at us even through the church Dan. How difficult it must be for our loving Father to understand why we won't trust Him when we are down and in need. God must think to Himself, "Don't they know I have graven them upon the palms of My hands. I could no more forget them in their hour of need than a mother could forget her suckling child, and even though a mother could forget her child, I cannot forget a single child of mine" (Isaiah:4915-16). You are not forgotten by God Dan. Keep you personal relationship with Him strong no matter what. He will see you through. As far as the pastors and the church are concerned. He will deal with that also. Leave it in his hands. Do not allow this to destroy you. No pastor, church, denomination or wife is worth your soul. Do not let satan rule you. Give it all to Him. If He can restore Job, He can and will restore you. Let Him do it in His time.

[Mark Metcalfe]

Mike,

Thank You again. Being in the Air Force for 11 years myself I am one who believes in leadership from the front. I have one pastor telling me that I am following satan and he seems to be an expert in how my house operates with only being there maybe 4 hours in the last two years. So now he is even guiding my wife that divorce is ok. He knows that this other pastor is doing innapropriate things but wont bring that up to anyone else. The Good Ole Boy Networkis alive and well in this situation.

Why is it that a man comes before God in finding justice. It is God's name that needs protected. Especially when abuse is basically being sponsored by the church, if the church knows of bad pastors and does nothing, they are basically codoning it. They pay his paycheck and allow the action. That is what they call liability.

But i have only been threatened and warned that I could face a lawsuit if I tarnish an abusing pastor's name as that brings a bad appearance to the CothN.

Where is the concern there, for the victims or the abuser? It is very obvious since he is still asisting my wife on this road and searching out ways to keep me silenced now.

Dan,

The viewers and participants of NazNet are not judges of your situation. We cannot verify all sides of the story, nor resolve your dispute if we knew every scintilla of the details. That is why it is particularly ill-advised to bring any names in here - not for the sake of hiding anything, but because NazNet is NOT the proper venue to pursue justice.

You can recieve compassion from people on NazNet; others may have gone through or will go through your trauma. But what purpose will you serve by trying to make this discussion board your adjudicator, especially when none of us can adjudicate this matter?

I am sorry for your hurt. I hate divorce and pray that the path of reconcilliation is found, and that God rules (and overrules) in this matter.

Mark

[Dan Woods]

They say that the devils two greatest footholds in the church is secrecy and silence. God's word says that if the people dont glorify God, the rocks will cry out. Nazarenes pride themselves on Holiness. It takes more then understanding the definition and writing it on the wall in big letters. God is the perfect definition of love, but the love He talks about is a verb. You can't just say love, you have to live it.

There was an old Indian Chief in British Cloumbia I believe that once said:

If you talk to the animals, you will know the animals

If you do not talk to the animals, you will not know the animals

What one does not know, one fears

What one fears, one destroys

If we cant talk about the problems, they get stuffed under the rug. That is the elephant in the closet. If you keep secret about the sin and silence the knowledge of the sin, you are hiding it, and hoping it goes away. it doesnt go away and it rotts and festers and becomes so big that you cant stop it. People need to stop being afraid of talking about the sin. If you cant talk about the sin, you sure cant talk about the grace. Think about that, before you fire off a response back.

People need to know that we arent going to judge them at all. That sin actually happens in the church and we can maturely and openly deal with it. That married couples do have arguements. Why is it that conflict has to be put out before it gets worked out. That is why we have people moving back and forth in churches all the time. We are not seeing sinners beating down the doors to get in. Because we have stuffed our sin and are trying to smell Holy and look Holy and have standards they have to meet before being accepted. The "Do as I say, not as I do' Club.

Why is it that we are so afraid of truth now? Jesus said in John 8:31-32 "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Stop being afraid of the truth.

The experts say that the world wants nothing to do with Christianity any longer as we have gone from being the extremists (shooting sinners, gay bashing), to now not standing for much of anything for God. We are so busy bickering about the little things and not addressing the bigger ones. What percentage of the average churches are now basically funding their building and a few men and women? We have gone from outreach, to inreach. World Evangelism would explode if we quit putting up million dollar palaces and gave that money out to the God followers who are out in the trenches and not back harming each other and the Kingdom.

Yes, I am very passionate in my words. God wants His people to take back from the devil which he has stolen. The vicotry is ours, but first we must clean house. it takes being able to be open and honest. You must take the log out of your own eye before you go out condemning the world.

[Gene Tatsch]

They say that the devils two greatest footholds in the church is secrecy and silence....
Yes.
I see this far too often, which means its far too prevalent in the church in this country. And whether the District Advisory Board supervises your pastor, you & I are followers of Jesus - and struggle to keep our eyes on Him in the mess of our lives (I know your story too well - both with spouse, and with secrecy & silence resulting in financial and spiritual disasters).
So keep your eyes on Jesus - even when the wind & waves threaten you.
As for the counsel to take care as to what you say, that's simply a by-product of the nature of today's communications: I try to remember to write here what I'm prepared to see on the front page of the NY Times tomorrow. (Long ago, I actually did have a FAX delivered to the desk of the one person I did not want to see it!) So be judicious - I doubt we're barred from speaking truth here - but, in self-defense, we need to be aware of the potential readership (note: NazNet is live-linked to several other sites - the moderators know better of this than I).

Bottom Line: you are in a valley of death. And He is with you. And we (and millions who don't even know you) are with you - in counsel, in prayer. As the Body.
gene --