PCUSA Opening Worship Processional - 219th General Assembly

[George Wallace]

PCUSA Opening Worship Processional - 219th General Assembly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4pr_E5Nbuc)

Christian or Pagan?

Thoughts?

Blessings
George

[Benjamin Burch]

There really isn't any context for me to know what they're doing, why, what it means, etc, etc. It's impossible to make a judgment one way or the other.

[Ryan Scott]

It's super creative. I didn't see a cross anywhere, but I'm not sure the lack of one is enough to call it pagan.

[Dennis Bratcher]

PCUSA Opening Worship Processional - 219th General Assembly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4pr_E5Nbuc)

Christian or Pagan?

Thoughts?

Perhaps it is the question that is more problematic than the answer.

Why are so many people so anxious to see something sinister or "pagan" in how other people worship God? Perhaps Romans 14:4 ought to be required reading for every Christian at least once a day!

This PCUSA assembly was held in Minneapolis and was structured to incorporate First Peoples' perspectives and to acknowledge the diversity of cultures included in the Church.

The opening prelude was a traditional African song (Kenya). The opening call to worship was led by a Lakota elder from South Dakota. The prayer was an adaptation of a First Peoples prayer to the four directions. The idea of the four directions as a metaphor for "everywhere" is a common one among tribal cultures, and occurs frequently in both Testaments.


Eze 37:9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, mortal, and say to the breath: Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."

Matt 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The animals in the processional represent God as creator with all creatures and all of nature part of his creation that all join together in praise of the Creator. Recall St. Francis' hymn, All Creatures of our God and King, which was the opening hymn of the Assembly.


All creatures of our God and King
Lift up your voice and with us sing
Oh, praise Him
Alleluia
Thou burning sun with golden beam
Thou silver moon with softer gleam
Oh, praise Him
Oh, praise Him
Alleluia
Alleluia
Alleluia

Thou rushing wind that art so strong
Ye clouds that sail in heav’n along
Oh, praise Him
Alleluia
Thou rising moon in praise rejoice
Ye lights of evening find a voice
Oh, praise Him
Oh, praise Him
Alleluia
Alleluia
Alleluia

Let all things their creator bless
And worship Him in humbleness
Oh, praise Him
Alleluia
Praise, praise the Father praise the Son
And praise the Spirit three in one
Oh, praise Him
Oh, praise Him
Alleluia
Alleluia
Alleluia

Praise, praise the Father praise the Son
And praise the Spirit three in one
Oh, praise Him
Oh, praise Him
Alleluia
Alleluia
Alleluia

If one wanted it to be, that sounds far more pantheistic than anything in the Assembly. Here is part of the introduction from the program (which is easily accessible online HERE (http://www.cola2010.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Opening-Worship-2010-bulletin-final.pdf)).


As God’s creation begins in Genesis with water, so our worship today starts with the sound of water. From the water springs life; “all creatures of our God and King” will enter from the four directions, first the animals and then humankind, in all its created diversity. The processional concludes with the placing of the sacramental elements on the table, together with the written word of God and the Cross of Jesus, the Word made flesh. At that point, the congregation is invited to rise in body or in spirit to join in the Opening Hymn.

From the explanation of the service from the worship committee:


Although written long before the eco-disaster in the Gulf of Mexico, it now feels providential that the Committee chose to open worship with this cry – “Come, Holy Spirit, as we gather in your name” – expressed liturgically in the profound creational reverence of America’s First Peoples, by turning our bodies to face “the four directions” of Earth and to “complete the circle” by looking up “to God who cleanses the earth with snow, wind, and rain; to Jesus Christ who fills us with the wideness of mercy and embraces us all, and to the Holy Spirit who inspires us. ‘Come, Holy Spirit, Come!’”

I think looking over the program/bulletin for the service answers the question quite well.

Our problem is that we are so culture bound and so literal in our thinking that we find it hard to express praise in symbols and metaphor, and find it doubly difficult to allow other people to use their own symbols to express praise. The tribal people of the Old Testament had no such problem.

I recall a few years ago attending a workshop on worship in a Lutheran Church. A Lakota Methodist used a Hopi hoop dance (using three hoops!) to the beat of traditional drums as his personal testimony. It was moving and powerful. Last year on the First Sunday of Lent, a lady in the AF Chapel presented a liturgical dance symbolizing penitence and prayer that was equally moving. And the world, and God, are far bigger than that! How it must sadden Him that we have reduced the expansiveness of St. Francis' understanding of praise to handclapping, or less.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[George Wallace]

Perhaps it is the question that is more problematic than the answer.


It happens to be a question that those within the PCUSA are asking themselves.

From The Layman a PCUSA Lay committee publication.

Did you see animals dancing in the aisles? How does that line up with your understanding of Romans 1 where worship of the Creator was exchanged for worship of the creature? Did you hear testimony where human desire was placed on a level with the Word of God? How does that line up with your understanding of the Christian calling to submit fully to the authority of God as revealed in the Scriptures? Certainly we heard prayers offered in the name of Jesus. We also heard prayers offered to the Goddess Sophia, Mother Earth, and a pantheon of other characters that cannot be equated with the Triune God who is self-revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is not that Jesus was omitted. It is that He is asked to share the throne with so many others. Not ready to call it paganism?
At least let us admit that it is no longer monotheism. And if not monotheistic, then pantheistic. And if pantheistic, then not authentically Christian. And if not Christian, then not possibly Presbyterian. Or is that what Presbyterian now means as practiced by some in the PCUSA? Let us be clear: There is either one true holy God or there is not. If God exists then let us not trifle with Him. If He does not exist then let us stop trifling with all the rest.

And it appears to be quite troubling to some.

The first charge of paganism I heard at the Presbyterian Church (USA) General Assembly came from the lips of an Iowa farmer who serves as a Commissioned Lay Pastor in his small town church. His tearstreaked cheeks quivering, he stood in the exhibit hall following the assembly’s opening worship service and grieved, “Paganism, that’s all I can say. Sheer paganism.”


Why are so many people so anxious to see something sinister or "pagan" in how other people worship God? Perhaps Romans 14:4 ought to be required reading for every Christian at least once a day!

Maybe because of Romans 1:22-25 at least some think so.

22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


I recall a few years ago attending a workshop on worship in a Lutheran Church. A Lakota Methodist used a Hopi hoop dance (using three hoops!) to the beat of traditional drums as his personal testimony. It was moving and powerful. Last year on the First Sunday of Lent, a lady in the AF Chapel presented a liturgical dance symbolizing penitence and prayer that was equally moving. And the world, and God, are far bigger than that! How it must sadden Him that we have reduced the expansiveness of St. Francis' understanding of praise to handclapping, or less.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

If all of this is such a good thing why is the PCUSA absolutely hemorrhaging congregations and individuals? I read the stats awhile back and if memory serves, in a little over a decade it has gone from around 3.3 million to 2.6 million (or something close to that). I know stats like that required a lot of interpretation and it is certainly not ‘just one thing’ but this type of thing in the video is obviously a big part of the whole problem.

Again from the August issue of The Layman

Since 2006, when PCUSA sheep started grazing in EPC pastures, the EPC membership has grown from 185 congregations to 287 currently. That includes a few new church developments and some closures, but Jeremiah [the Stated Clerk of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church EPC] said the EPC has received roughly 100 PCUSA congregations.

And From Septembers Issue

Colonial Presbyterian Church near Kansas City has made it official: The 1,700-member, 2-campus congregation voted 927-27 Sunday to leave the Presbyterian Church (USA).

Members also voted 914-29 to join the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC), a popular destination for congregations departing the PCUSA due to disagreements over theology and moral standards. According to the 2009 comparative statistics, Colonial is the second largest congregation in Heartland Presbtery….

The congregation overwhelmingly (approximately 97 percent) supported the session’s recommendation, with more than half of the membership (56 percent) present.

IMO this is what almost inevitably happens to THE BIG TENT it ends up as a BIG TOP.

:smilies1127:…..and now appearing in the center ring….The Hopi hoop Dance!...

Blessings
George

[Susan Unger]

I agree with many of the thoughts expressed here. My only contribution would be to say that I am at a point in my life and walk where I just prefer something more explicitly God oriented and reverent. Animals dancing in the aisle probably isn't pagan [although if I had been there I might say other wise] but rather I would view it as lost chance to be God focused during that time.

[Dennis Bratcher]

It happens to be a question that those within the PCUSA are asking themselves.

Because some people in a church question what other people are doing does not make it an issue of pagan or Christian. Believe it or not, there are usually more than two options about most things. Evidently you are not familiar with a church that openly discusses and debates the varying views of its members, even when they are hot topics. Presbyterians have a long history of such a dialog within the context of their congregational polity. That does not make one perspective right and the other wrong; it just openly admits that people have different opinions. Unfortunately, more often than it should such dialog tends to degenerate to name calling


If all of this is such a good thing . . ."

I did not say it was a good thing (although it may well be). I provided some context for the video that you failed to provide. I pointed out that it had a much different intent by the planners than the accusation of "paganism," and occurred within a much different context than the video tells us, and the question implied.


. . .why is the PCUSA absolutely hemorrhaging congregations and individuals?

Probably because of an array of factors, including cultural shifts, the ongoing crusade of Southern Baptists and other fundamentalists in sustained attacks on anyone and everyone that does not agree with them, the failure of many mainline churches to listen to constituents, the rise of independent churches that offer a smorgasbord of beliefs and ethics, the influence of Christian media which is dominated by fundamentalists and Pentecostals, etc. And that decline among mainline churches did not suddenly start because of the assembly; it can be tracked across more than 25 years. None of that has much of anything to do with this particular issue.


I know stats like that required a lot of interpretation and it is certainly not ‘just one thing’ but this type of thing in the video is obviously a big part of the whole problem.

But why bother with careful analysis and interpretation when such a ready explanation that fits your own agenda is so easily at hand?


Again from the August issue of The Layman

Since 2006, when PCUSA sheep started grazing in EPC pastures, the EPC membership has grown from 185 congregations to 287 currently. That includes a few new church developments and some closures, but Jeremiah [the Stated Clerk of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church EPC] said the EPC has received roughly 100 PCUSA congregations.

And From Septembers Issue

Colonial Presbyterian Church near Kansas City has made it official: The 1,700-member, 2-campus congregation voted 927-27 Sunday to leave the Presbyterian Church (USA).

Members also voted 914-29 to join the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC), a popular destination for congregations departing the PCUSA due to disagreements over theology and moral standards. According to the 2009 comparative statistics, Colonial is the second largest congregation in Heartland Presbtery….

The congregation overwhelmingly (approximately 97 percent) supported the session’s recommendation, with more than half of the membership (56 percent) present.

You have an easy answer to a very complex situation. I was at a Presbyterian seminary 30 years ago as merger talks were underway between the northern and southern branches (which split over slavery; the Southern Baptist Convention also was formed as a reaction to the American Baptist position against slavery). Divisions run deep among Presbyterians and always have, as they do among Baptists. That is part of the legacy of a purely congregational polity. The same kind of division has happened among Baptists as the SBC has split into three conventions and local churches have withdrawn or been expelled. And most of that goes the other direction from the Presbyterians. So it is unfair and dishonest to broadly paint these circumstances only in terms of personal opinion and agendas.


IMO this is what almost inevitably happens to THE BIG TENT it ends up as a BIG TOP. :smilies1127:[I]…..and now appearing in the center ring….The Hopi hoop Dance!...

After my comments, I find this obnoxiously insulting. But then, you've practiced that a bit.

I'm pretty much done with this.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Ryan Scott]

Perhaps it has to do with perspective. I don't know too much about the PCUSA, but if there were a Nazarene function which gave creedence to the non-human elements of God's creation I would be thankful that we decided to focus on an aspect of faith we've too often neglected in the past.

I can see how this display might be troublesome to some if the PCUSA is ignoring some other aspects of faith they deem important.

[David Lyons]

It happens to be a question that those within the PCUSA are asking themselves.

From The Layman a PCUSA Lay committee publication.

Did you see animals dancing in the aisles? How does that line up with your understanding of Romans 1 where worship of the Creator was exchanged for worship of the creature? Did you hear testimony where human desire was placed on a level with the Word of God? How does that line up with your understanding of the Christian calling to submit fully to the authority of God as revealed in the Scriptures? Certainly we heard prayers offered in the name of Jesus. We also heard prayers offered to the Goddess Sophia, Mother Earth, and a pantheon of other characters that cannot be equated with the Triune God who is self-revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is not that Jesus was omitted. It is that He is asked to share the throne with so many others. Not ready to call it paganism?
At least let us admit that it is no longer monotheism. And if not monotheistic, then pantheistic. And if pantheistic, then not authentically Christian. And if not Christian, then not possibly Presbyterian. Or is that what Presbyterian now means as practiced by some in the PCUSA? Let us be clear: There is either one true holy God or there is not. If God exists then let us not trifle with Him. If He does not exist then let us stop trifling with all the rest.

The sections in bold are the part that concerns me most. I like symbolism when it is done well. I recall being at Grove City for their conference and they had a huge Tabernacle display from the Old Testament. That was amazing, as well as Biblical.

Did the Presbyterians really pray to Sophia, Mother Earth and others? If so, then yes, I would call that pagan.

[George Wallace]

Evidently you are not familiar with a church that openly discusses and debates the varying views of its members, even when they are hot topics. Presbyterians have a long history of such a dialog within the context of their congregational polity.

No, the Nazarene Churches I’ve been in are mostly too, lethargic, apathetic or uninformed to debate anything more that the color of the carpet in the foyer or whether or not drums are appropriate in the worship band or the percentage of chorus’ vs. hymns.

I’m not NAZ bashing either. With the exception of NazNet I have just never seen Nazarenes debate anything theological or moral, the debates I’ve witnessed were always more practical or preferential in nature, carpet music ect.

I am also very happy to be part of a unified body of believers. Right or wrong we have the Confessional Standards which leaves some room for variance in belief, but very little. It is not fundamentalist, it is Confessional.


I did not say it was a good thing (although it may well be). I provided some context for the video that you failed to provide. I pointed out that it had a much different intent by the planners than the accusation of "paganism," and occurred within a much different context than the video tells us, and the question implied.

Well apparently the ‘context that I failed to provide’ also included:


Did you see animals dancing in the aisles? How does that line up with your understanding of Romans 1 where worship of the Creator was exchanged for worship of the creature? Did you hear testimony where human desire was placed on a level with the Word of God? How does that line up with your understanding of the Christian calling to submit fully to the authority of God as revealed in the Scriptures? Certainly we heard prayers offered in the name of Jesus. We also heard prayers offered to the Goddess Sophia, Mother Earth, and a pantheon of other characters that cannot be equated with the Triune God who is self-revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So, why didn’t you engage the with the prayers to Mother Earth ect? Seems to me that the more “context” you give this thing the worse it gets. Are you going to defend the Mother Earth and Sophia prayers too? Make sure you face the “four winds" while you do.


Probably because of an array of factors….

Like I wrote (Do you have trouble with English?) I clearly said it’s NOT “just one thing” sounds awfully similar to “Probably because of an array of factors…”


But why bother with careful analysis and interpretation when such a ready explanation that fits your own agenda is so easily at hand?

What agenda? It’s a simple question; Christian or pagan? Answers are:

IMO Christian

Or

IMO pagan

Possibly, an “I’m not sure would also be acceptable.”

But when you couple that with the Native American angle, and the prayers in the name of, or to those others… Well really, what would they need to do for you to say something is pagan, offer a human sacrifice? There is always next year!


After my comments, I find this obnoxiously insulting. But then, you've practiced that a bit.

I’ve learned so much from you Dennis! I guess I was wrong about you wasting your money.

Frankly, I find it obnoxious, insulting, and disingenuous and down right cowardly that can’t admit that something like this at least appears blatantly Pagan. I also find it obnoxious and insulting for a “Christian Educator” to just flatly disregard the animistic origins of the Native American hoop dance affirming their use in “Christian Worship”

That is truly obnoxious.


I'm pretty much done with this.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

As usual no - Grace, no - Peace just Dennis.
I double dog dare you to just drop it! If I was a bettn’ man I’d bet money you can’t refrain your EGO IS TOO BIG! And we all know you have zero tolerance for forgiveness. You’ve been bitten by dogs before right? Too bad the Biblical model or worldview escapes you so very often.

GW

Beat ya to the initials this time;)

[George Wallace]

David,
Yes they did pray to others. The quote is from the August issue of The Layman found at http://www.layman.org/TheLayman.aspx

Blessings
George

And Welcome!

[Jon Twitchell]

So...

if you already knew the answer...

and if you had already determined the other answers as wrong...



...then why did you ask?

[George Wallace]

So...

if you already knew the answer...

and if you had already determined the other answers as wrong...



...then why did you ask?

Like my first post said...."Thoughts?"

While I was sure that some might not call it pagan, I really never expected anyone (well maybe one person) to actually defend it.
The most honest answer was Ben's - "not enough info" The video itself may not be enough for some to make the call. That's why I then linked and quoted from The Layman. Actually, I read the articles over a month ago and did not immediately remember the Sophia Mother Earth part. I just remembered that it is a legitimate question those in the PCUSA are asking themselves.

Blessings
George

[Benjamin Burch]

No, the Nazarene Churches I’ve been in are mostly too, lethargic, apathetic or uninformed to debate anything more that the color of the carpet in the foyer or whether or not drums are appropriate in the worship band or the percentage of chorus’ vs. hymns.

I’m not NAZ bashing either. With the exception of NazNet I have just never seen Nazarenes debate anything theological or moral, the debates I’ve witnessed were always more practical or preferential in nature, carpet music ect.

I am also very happy to be part of a unified body of believers. Right or wrong we have the Confessional Standards which leaves some room for variance in belief, but very little. It is not fundamentalist, it is Confessional.



Well apparently the ‘context that I failed to provide’ also included:




Did you see animals dancing in the aisles? How does that line up with your understanding of Romans 1 where worship of the Creator was exchanged for worship of the creature?

This is silly. I saw no worship of these animals that were dancing in the aisle. Completely silly to try and play this card.



Did you hear testimony where human desire was placed on a level with the Word of God? How does that line up with your understanding of the Christian calling to submit fully to the authority of God as revealed in the Scriptures?

Well... no. I did not "hear testimony where..." and neither did you, George. We don't know what was in fact said or if this person is interpreting it correctly or if they're just working from a preconceived agenda. Judging from the first part I highlighted, it doesn't look real hopeful.



Certainly we heard prayers offered in the name of Jesus.

You would think they'd be a wee bit happier about this. This, to me, shows an agenda at work. They just breezed by this on their way to attack some more.



We also heard prayers offered to the Goddess Sophia,

Last I checked "Sophia" is equated with YHWH himself in Proverbs. Therefore, this is Scriptural and there is no problem, here.



Mother Earth,

This would certainly be mildly pagan if that's what indeed did happen in such a way but you'll forgive me if I'm losing all faith in the writer of this blurb. They haven't proven themselves very credible or knowledgable so far.



and a pantheon of other characters

Such as who? No substantiantion, just an empty charge.



that cannot be equated with the Triune God who is self-revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Except that, as I've already said, Sophia is praised as YHWH in Proverbs. So this entire premise is false.



So, why didn’t you engage the with the prayers to Mother Earth ect? Seems to me that the more “context” you give this thing the worse it gets. Are you going to defend the Mother Earth and Sophia prayers too? Make sure you face the “four winds" while you do.

Possibly because the "context" was as suspect as one could ask for and as unhelpful as it gets.



But when you couple that with the Native American angle, and the prayers in the name of, or to those others… Well really, what would they need to do for you to say something is pagan, offer a human sacrifice? There is always next year!

George, this post here from you really discourages me. It misses the point completely of what corporate worship is and has always been. Cultural. Contextual. Adaptations of cultural things. Now, I'm all for the acknowledgement that the Liturgy in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican churches are different and that the Orthodox is really a "show" for the layman, but it's a beautiful one that draws them into worship... not the entertainment fest we call Evangelicalism. However, they're all culturally conditioned and contextualized - whether you or I or anyone else wants to admit it or not. The unifying factor is the Sacrament.

So, why can't Native Americans baptize and convert their customs? Use them to praise the one true God instead of how they were used before? What would you rather do? Have them be white? That, to me, is the logical conclusion of what you've put forward here and it's incredibly disheartening.



Frankly, I find it obnoxious, insulting, and disingenuous and down right cowardly that can’t admit that something like this at least appears blatantly Pagan. I also find it obnoxious and insulting for a “Christian Educator” to just flatly disregard the animistic origins of the Native American hoop dance affirming their use in “Christian Worship”

That is truly obnoxious.

I really grow extremely tired of the idea that things that were used to glorify non-Gods somehow cannot ever be converted as a worship tool to worship the True God. Paul seems to think that nothing has any power to be or do anything if it's being offered to a non-God.

Again, it seems like you're more interested in converting a lot more than an individual's particular faith. It seems like for you certain things come along with that. However, I worry what your standards might be. How awfully culturally conditioned they probably are. This is sad, again, George.



As usual no - Grace, no - Peace just Dennis.
I double dog dare you to just drop it! If I was a bettn’ man I’d bet money you can’t refrain your EGO IS TOO BIG! And we all know you have zero tolerance for forgiveness. You’ve been bitten by dogs before right? Too bad the Biblical model or worldview escapes you so very often.

This is unacceptable, George. You and I both know that Dennis usually posts with plenty of Grace and Peace. You two have your thing going on and I won't get into the middle of that, but it seems disingenuous of you to act as though you don't "agg it on."

Also, to attack Dennis in such a way, to claim he has this ego, etc, etc, on a Public Forum is really unnecessary and unacceptable.

Also, to say that it is "cowardice" to not agree with your position on something is just ridiculous.

Please, George. I believe you're much better than that.

[Jon Twitchell]

Like my first post said...."Thoughts?"

While I was sure that some might not call it pagan, I really never expected anyone (well maybe one person) to actually defend it.
The most honest answer was Ben's - "not enough info" The video itself may not be enough for some to make the call. That's why I then linked and quoted from The Layman. Actually, I read the articles over a month ago and did not immediately remember the Sophia Mother Earth part. I just remembered that it is a legitimate question those in the PCUSA are asking themselves.

Blessings
George

Thanks for your response.

What I'm reacting to is a sense... an appearance... a perception...

(perhaps it is just a perception that I have)

....that you aren't really interested in hearing the thoughts that don't agree with yours.

Certainly, you may not have intended to come across that way. But I suspect that most of us have been in a place where a boss or supervisor has asked our opinion... we've shared it... and then simply been dismissed, or told that our opinion is wrong. And my response to that often is, "if you didn't want to know what I thought... then why did you ask!" This thread feels a lot like that.

Just my opinion. And again... you probably didn't intend to come across that way.

[Rich Schmidt]

There's a big difference between:

(A) worshiping creatures/creation rather than the Creator, and

(B) calling / joining with all of creation to worship the Creator.

There's not enough in that video to say which is happening, but if it's a Processional at the beginning of a worship service, then it looks more like B than A to me. And according to the worship program Dennis linked to, it's explicitly B, not A.

That's not to say I'd be comfortable with prayers to Sophia or Mother Earth... but I don't even know that this took place. I have second-hand information from The Layman saying it did... as compared to first-hand information from the worship program, which makes no reference to prayers to Sophia or Mother Earth. (I just read it to be sure.)

So... IMO, it was Christian, not pagan.

[Dale Cozby]

Well...here is my video of the surreal added to this silliness: http://en.gloria.tv/?media=39991

Romans 14:21-22

Anyone approve of or practice clown communion?

[David Graham]

Sadly I can't view the video of the event, I've tried a number of times but I can't view the event.

However, I would like to give the Presbyterians the benefit of the doubt that they offer prayers to God through Jesus Christ, and therefore thy are a bona fide Christian church!

I can however discern language and "tones" of comment that are "less than gracious" and border on the "sub-Christian", and I fear that I have read some of this in some of what has been posted within this thread. My hope and prayer is that we would try and maintain objectivity with regard to the topic at hand and not question the intentions, intelligence or integrity of those who disagree with us. If we can't do than with the future posts, we might have to consider closing this thread down.

God's Peace Ladies and Gentlemen please.
Dave
Naznet Host.

[Todd Erickson]

There is a tendency in Christians to say "how I came to be a Christian is the only way, and the only way to be". It takes a lot of stretching and work to move outside of that.

Much of the NT is Paul talking to churches and groups who are struggling with this, from Helenizers to Judaizers.

In the meantime, over the last 2000 years, the various arms of the church have made it as hard as humanly possible for anybody creative or romantic to remain within the church. They have been driven out in droves as being disrespectful, or pursuant of the devil. They have moved into different groups; Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Bible...but as Fundamentalism moves in behind them, they move on ahead.

Sadly, "sober" seems to have a far more respected place in most congregations than "joyful". Or "In the image of our Creator".

I expect to live my life in frustration and, unfortunately, some degree of fear. I may even get the pleasure of being driven out of a church as a heretic some day by people I love. I certainly wouldn't be the first.

But.

I must diminish, so that He may increase.

[Mike Schutz]

Whatever we do in a public event is open to critique. This event has been analyzed and discussed by PCUSA folks and is open for such critique and analysis.

Lacking the context of the entire event, I would be hesitant to label it "pagan," but I certainly understand those who are concerned about it. One of my PCUSA friends who was present suggested that this was done with a wink and a nod, knowing it would offend the more conservative folks, and thus showing that we are above their literal narrowness.

More disturbing to me than the video was the tone of this thread. I wouldn't put up with such childishness in our junior high Sunday school class. I was waiting for someone to say "So's your mother!"

I'm not sure whether the PCUSA procession was Christian or not. I can make a more confident assertion as to whether or not the tone of this conversation is worthy of the label "Christian."

[David Gerber]

I was waiting for someone to say "So's your mother!"

Always the servant: So's your mother!

[David Lyons]

Benjamin, you wrote: "Last I checked "Sophia" is equated with YHWH himself in Proverbs. Therefore, this is Scriptural and there is no problem, here."

I certainly disagree about praying to Sophia being Scriptural. I do not believe that Sophia = YHWH. That would be a very mistaken interpretation of what Proverbs is trying to say.

[Rich Schmidt]

Benjamin, you wrote: "Last I checked "Sophia" is equated with YHWH himself in Proverbs. Therefore, this is Scriptural and there is no problem, here."

I certainly disagree about praying to Sophia being Scriptural. I do not believe that Sophia = YHWH. That would be a very mistaken interpretation of what Proverbs is trying to say.

AFAIK, David is right on this. Traditionally (in both Jewish and Christian understandings), Sophia is not equated with YHWH in Proverbs.