Our conception of God

[BobHunt]

There has been something on my mind for a long time, and it is this...whatever conception we have of God is going to shape our lives and it might not be in the right mold.
If I have a pastor who always preaches hell fire and brimstone, I will see God as a righteous judge or policeman, and I will constantly be afraid, and "walk on egg shells" the rest of my life. If I see God as someone who is far off, and I have a vey blurred vision of Him, I might lose all interest and come to the realization that maybe God doesnt listen to my prayers, or is too busy with the millions of other pray-ers.
I think this is one reason why ministers and leaders have to be so careful, because through their ministry they are shaping so many other people's lives and could maim them spiritually if they are too far to the left or right, not in the center.
How many pastors present an accurate photo of God through their preaching? Do they only present Him as a judge? Do they only picture Him as a policeman with a billy club, ready to pounce if someone does 1 thing out of line? Do they present God as Grace-giving, or only Law-giving?
If I put on my wife's glasses, things blur...if I take off my glasses i can still see but not far away. Church members are in fact, looking at God through their pastor's glasses, however he presents God....I wonder how accurate and true that picture is.

[Susan Unger]

If I put on my wife's glasses, things blur...if I take off my glasses i can still see but not far away. Church members are in fact, looking at God through their pastor's glasses, however he presents God....I wonder how accurate and true that picture is.

So true! This is why several years ago I told God that from that point on I didn't ever want to believe something because a pastor told me I had to believe. I want to only believe stuff because HE has told me to believe it. It has really help shield me from some traps and battlegrounds of the enemy.

[Barbara Moulton]

So true! This is why several years ago I told God that from that point on I didn't ever want to believe something because a pastor told me I had to believe. I want to only believe stuff because HE has told me to believe it. It has really help shield me from some traps and battlegrounds of the enemy.

I agree that you shouldn't believe something simply because a pastor says that you HAVE to believe it.

But I was blessed to have pastors (before I became one and then married one) who challenged me and made me think. They answered my questions when I was a teenager with clarity and engaged in discussions with my youth group. I don't believe anything simply because a pastor told me to believe...but I salute all the pastors who helped me in my spiritual journey through the years.

[BobHunt]

I left out one thought....and that is, I think we have to have the right conception of God, especially when it involves our faith....can we believe Him for great things when our vision of Him is blurred? Do we believe in miracles?

[Gene Tatsch]

... How many pastors present an accurate photo of God through their preaching? ...
My observation is that an organizational leader tends to lose humility of wrestling with questions ... and hear only their own lone song.

And I'm finding it seems to be a life-long quest to know the Father.
"God As He Longs for You to See Him" by Chip Ingram might be useful ?

[Gene Tatsch]

... we have to have the right conception of God, especially when it involves our faith....can we believe Him for great things when our vision of Him is blurred? Do we believe in miracles?

Bob, I think you've hit on a key issue.
My wife & I have concluded that as a congregation (as a denomination) we really don't believe His Word, let alone Him. Look at our actions. Look at our stupor. What else can one conclude?

Hence, our intercession needs to be that He'll awaken us to our desperate need.

Thanks for confessing - you've spoken for many of us.

gene --

[Hans Deventer]

There has been something on my mind for a long time, and it is this...whatever conception we have of God is going to shape our lives and it might not be in the right mold.

Bob, our concept of God is the main subject I preach about for that very reason. I agree completely, it is crucial.

[Ramesh Deosarran]

...whatever conception we have of God is going to shape our lives and it might not be in the right mold.

Specifically the right conception of God includes the following but not limited to:

1. God is real. He is not a projection of something or someone else. He is Being itself and not the highest or greatest among the lesser. He is the Creater of the world and is relevant to the world.

2. God thinks and has personality. He speaks and listens. He is all powerful. He is more than awareness because He has perfect knowledge.

3. God wills and purposes. His action is no small debate. However, what He wills and purposes are good because goodness is one of the foundations of His character.

[BobHunt]

I will give you another example, we often hear ministers or even lay people explain God as a loving Heavenly Father, and I have often thought about those poor kids whose earthly father has walked out of their lives never to return or those fathers who have molested them as kids and beat the mothers....how can we expect them to know what a loving Heavenly Father is??

[Gerald Spear]

Is my concept of God wrong because I base all of my hope on Romans 8:28??

gerald

[Gene Tatsch]

Is my concept of God wrong because I base all of my hope on Romans 8:28??

gerald

Hi Gerald --
I guess I'm not understanding what you're getting at ... could you elaborate a bit? I certainly don't see any problem ... but I don't see lots of things :laughing

[Mark Metcalfe]

Church members are in fact, looking at God through their pastor's glasses, however he presents God....I wonder how accurate and true that picture is.


God is who He is. (Exodus 3:14)
He reveals Himself to those who seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)
A pastor of mine once said that I should never believe what any preacher or anyone else says, if it doesn't square (and not conflict) with Scripture. (Acts 17:11)
Test what you hear, even from preachers. (1 John 4:1)
Be transformed... (Romans 12:2)
Those that teach [preach?] have a greater responsibility. (James 3:1)
However, I believe each person is responsible for their witness to reflect God [as He has been revealed to us through diligent seeking] so that others can see Him in us.


Mark

[Billy Cox]

I will give you another example, we often hear ministers or even lay people explain God as a loving Heavenly Father, and I have often thought about those poor kids whose earthly father has walked out of their lives never to return or those fathers who have molested them as kids and beat the mothers....how can we expect them to know what a loving Heavenly Father is??

...and then we have the oft-preached 'Sugar Daddy' God. You know the one... Big Daddy gives us good things and does nice stuff for us as long as we 'put out' for him on a semi-regular basis.

[Marsha Lynn]

I think this is one reason why ministers and leaders have to be so careful, because through their ministry they are shaping so many other people's lives and could maim them spiritually if they are too far to the left or right, not in the center.
How many pastors present an accurate photo of God through their preaching?

It seems that one's concept of God is first developed as a child. In that case, parents who claim to know God and interact with a child/adolescent on a daily basis in the home have much more impact on that child's concept of God than church leaders who see the child/adolescent no more than a few hours a week. I think fathers are particularly influential in that regard. Personally, I remember no more than one teacher at church who presented a view of God that was clear and convincing enough to modify the image I picked up at home. Pastors came and went over the years with little impact since they relied almost entirely on their time in the pulpit to convey an image of God to me without ever checking to see if they were answering the questions I was asking.

Do church leaders become more influential for those whose parents offer little or no insight into the character of God?

[Barbara Moulton]

Thanks Marsha. I was getting uncomfortable with what seemed to be the tendancy to place responsiblity for faulty perceptions of God entirely at the feet of pastors.

There were a myriad of influences in my life. Family teaching, SS teachers, authors, my own study of Scriptures, dialogue with my peers, prayerful reflection...etc. As a result, from a very young age, I can remember hearing preachers and saying to myself, "That doesn't seem right." I can also remember when something resonated with my spirit.

I would be very discouraged to find that members of my congregation were looking to us alone to determine correct belief in their lives.


It seems that one's concept of God is first developed as a child. In that case, parents who claim to know God and interacts with a child/adolescent on a daily basis in the home have much more impact on that child's concept of God than church leaders who see the child/adolescent no more than a few hours a week. I think fathers are particularly influential in that regard. Personally, I remember no more than one teacher at church who presented a view of God that was clear and convincing enough to modify the image I picked up at home. Pastors came and went over the years with little impact since they relied almost entirely on their time in the pulpit to convey an image of God to me without ever checking to see if they were answering the questions I was asking.

Do church leaders become more influential for those whose parents offer little or no insight into the character of God?

[BobHunt]

I dint mean it was all pastors responsibility, but in some cases in broken homes, in times when kids are on their own....who then gives them any help in knowing who God is? tv...relatives...and whatever they have grasped when young.

[Mike McVey]

I think it is the church's job to struggle together the conception of God. Most of the dialog that takes place on this forum is exactly about this. The internet is a great invention where so many of us mixed of laity and clergy from all over the world can wrestle as the church universal what God looks like. We don't always agree and usually don't need to. We emphasize different parts of God because we are different parts of the body. And I think Barbara correctly stated that one person isn't the only source someone gets of God. And the Church of the Nazarene's history, that was never a problem. The average tenure of a pastor was so small, that if the church survived, it had to have others to inform the communal individuals.

[Eric Vail]

There has been something on my mind for a long time, and it is this...whatever conception we have of God is going to shape our lives and it might not be in the right mold.
If I have a pastor who always preaches hell fire and brimstone, I will see God as a righteous judge or policeman, and I will constantly be afraid, and "walk on egg shells" the rest of my life. If I see God as someone who is far off, and I have a vey blurred vision of Him, I might lose all interest and come to the realization that maybe God doesnt listen to my prayers, or is too busy with the millions of other pray-ers.
I think this is one reason why ministers and leaders have to be so careful, because through their ministry they are shaping so many other people's lives and could maim them spiritually if they are too far to the left or right, not in the center.
How many pastors present an accurate photo of God through their preaching? Do they only present Him as a judge? Do they only picture Him as a policeman with a billy club, ready to pounce if someone does 1 thing out of line? Do they present God as Grace-giving, or only Law-giving?
If I put on my wife's glasses, things blur...if I take off my glasses i can still see but not far away. Church members are in fact, looking at God through their pastor's glasses, however he presents God....I wonder how accurate and true that picture is.

This is largely why I am so passionate about systematic theology and my calling to teach our young Nazarene men and women (both clergy and laity) in one of our Nazarene colleges/universities. I was reading an Eastern Orthodox theologian one day who said that we in the west have often lost sight of the place of theology; we use it to try to figure out and explain everything. In the east theology is done for the purpose of keeping us on the right path; it is a matter of working out our salvation with fear and trembling. We don't change our theological perspectives lightly. They have endless implications in our worship, thinking, living, etc. Ignorance and/or carelessness in theology can have dire (even if unintentional) consequences on a people.

For many of these reasons, high church traditions are very careful with their liturgy (how it forms the people and their thinking). I was just informed yesterday that the RC Church has made some changes. I've not looked at them in any detail, but at a brief glance I was not pleased.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93419478


Thanks for raising this issue!

[Susan Unger]

This is largely why I am so passionate about systematic theology and my calling to teach our young Nazarene men and women (both clergy and laity) in one of our Nazarene colleges/universities. I was reading an Eastern Orthodox theologian one day who said that we in the west have often lost sight of the place of theology; we use it to try to figure out and explain everything. In the east theology is done for the purpose of keeping us on the right path; it is a matter of working out our salvation with fear and trembling. We don't change our theological perspectives lightly. They have endless implications in our worship, thinking, living, etc. Ignorance and/or carelessness in theology can have dire (even if unintentional) consequences on a people.

For many of these reasons, high church traditions are very careful with their liturgy (how it forms the people and their thinking). I was just informed yesterday that the RC Church has made some changes. I've not looked at them in any detail, but at a brief glance I was not pleased.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93419478


Thanks for raising this issue!

They even changed the wording of the creeds. At first this bothered me but then I read further and realized that they didn't change the latin, but rather the english translation.

[Randy Wise]

Is my concept of God wrong because I base all of my hope on Romans 8:28??

gerald

When something unfortunate happens to a believer in Christ and I hear people state in regard to such a event, "I believe everything has a purpose", I usually reply with Romans 8:28. I believe God loves me and will get me through any event and works for my well being not that He causes such events.

Randy

[Mark Metcalfe]

This is the beginning of a sermon that went out this morning.

Excerpt:

When I consider the heavens, the product of mere chance and
the collision of atoms, the moon and the stars, which simply came into
being without any force beyond mere chance, WHAT IS MAN?

IF 'GOD IS NOTHING', THEN: MAN IS NOTHING!

It may seem like a careless statement but: This is the reason why
our society is so deeply in trouble! The 'springs of education' have
been polluted, and the 'ocean' is being defiled!

Our children, our youth may not be sophisticated
philosophers. But they are not fools-- and when we have persisted in
teaching in our public schools for the past 50 years or so that the
Bible is a myth, and that God did not create the heavens and the earth
they begin to get the message: "We have come from nothing . . . and we
are going TO nothing! THIS is all there is! WHAT IS MAN? MAN IS
NOTHING!"

You can read the whole sermon here (in about 5 minutes or so).

Sermon: Jesus is the Measure of Man (http://russellmetcalfesermons.nazarene.nl/SermonTexts/dad.jesus_is_measure_of_man)

Mark (posting material from his father's sermon web site - this sermon was preached in 1987)