Bible Study question:

[Steven Stone]

I think I already know the answer, but I thought I would throw this out and see what the thoughts are out in the Naznet world. A question was raised last night...


Are the Jewish people still God's chosen people or are the Christian's now God's chosen?"

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Christians!

Wilson

[Judy Engel]

If it is Christians, then did God break His covenant with Israel?

[Garth Lahana]

The way I understand it that when Jesus died on the cross, when the curtain seperating the holiest of holies from the rest of the temple, was torn in two, that signified the end of the first covenant. The sacrifice of Jesus thereby opened the way to God, and was the start of the new covenant, bought with our Lord's blood, death on the cross, and His victorious resurection from the dead. I would think that the covenant would exclude the Jews as they do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. They are still waiting for Christ to come...

I've often wondered it the modern day jews have ever wondered why they do not have any prophets anymore. In the thousands of years preceeding Christ's life on earth, God gave His people, the Israelites many prophets. Surely this must make them at least curious about why they don't have any prophets anymore? Anyone have any ideas on this?

Garth

[Judy Engel]

My understanding of a covenant is that it can't be broken....except through death. Unless you consider Christ's death the breaking of that covenant. But even at that, why would God completely do away with the old covenant just to usher in teh new one? That is like saying that we don't need to know anything about the Old Testament because we have the New Testament. I am not trying to be adversarial, I am just expressing some questions I would also like to have answered. Anyway, anyone have any thoughts?

[Wilson L. Deaton]

If it is Christians, then did God break His covenant with Israel?

It's the other way around... Israel broke the covenant with God.

Wilson

[Wilson L. Deaton]

My understanding of a covenant is that it can't be broken....... Anyway, anyone have any thoughts?

God did not break his covenant. The covenant was to the "descendents" of Abraham. But the Scripture teaches that God is not limited to physical genetics.

Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

The following passages indicates that God's covenant is with Abraham's "descendents" but descendents are those who have the faith and obedience of Abraham, not the "genes" of Abraham:

Romans 2:25-27
Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. [26] If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? [27] The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. [28] A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. [29] No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 4:9-12
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. [10] Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! [11] And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. [12] And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Col. 2:11
In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,

(Remember, circumcision was the "sign" or "seal" of being God's people.)

Hope this helps.

Wilson

[Brad Mercer]

I think God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. I think his chosen people are the "whosoever" of John 3:16. I think that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. I think God so loved "the world". I think he first loved us. I think he reaches out redemptively to Jew and Gentile, Greek and Barbarian, male and female. He created us for relationship and woos us into relationship and all the promises are promises of the benefits of relationship. Outside of relationship there is nothing. For anyone. Within relationship there is everything. For anyone.

Brad

[Hans Deventer]

The Jews are and will always be God's chosen people.

Paul explains in Ephesians 3:6


This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

And of course Romans 11 is very clear:

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!

and

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

And Paul has a warning for us here too:

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

[Stephen Kerr]

Deventer is absolutely on to something. Romans 11 is pretty clear- you certainly get a sense that God is not finished with Israel. Also, there are prophecies from the OT that have not yet been fulfilled in regards to the Jewish people and that indicate their response to Christ when He returns (Zach 12) Paul, who was a Jew, stated that salvation comes first for the Jew and then the Gentile. Even Jesus taught His disciples to start in Judea and then Samaria and then throughout the world. Also, when He sent the 12 out in Matthew ith power and authority He made it clear they needed to go to the Jews and not any Gentiles. At one point a need arises concerning a gentile and Jesus remarks that He came to the children of the house first and the person responds "Don't even the dogs get to eat up the crumbs that fall." To which Jesus responds with granting the request. Remember that Paul continued to satisfy Jewish law to the point of his death-- remember, when he was arrested in Jerusalem he had been at the temple fulfilling a vow? -- completely Jewish language here. As gentiles, let's be grateful but never proud that we have been adopted into the family and that the dividing wall has been broken down so that there is no distinction between the Jew and the Gentile (Ephesians 2).
Regarding Covenants: Though the people of Israel were often rebellious (much like the church is today) God did not thoroughly reject them-- (aren't you glad He continues to let us return as well). Over and over he speaks about a restoration that has not yet taken place. Over and over He speak about His forgiveness and mercy if they repent and return to Him. Furtherrmore, each covenant in the Old Testament builds upon itself until we have the greatest and complete convenant in Christ. The NT does not abandon the OT (Paul says "the commandment is holy, righteous, and good." Rather, the New Testament simply takes first place-- it supercedes the Old but does not abolish the Old.
Look at the progression of Covenants: Noahaic Covenant, Abrahamic Covenant, Mosaic Covenant, Davidic Covenant, -> New Covenant). It is interesting that in Acts 15 at the first council the Christians (who were Jews) were discussing how they should let in the Gentiles and if they needed to become full fledged converts of the Old Covenant. Through, what must be God's grace and guidance, they go back to the Noahaic covenant which was the first covenant to all of humanity. Those laws of the Noahic Covenant are specifically enjoined to be fulfilled by the Gentile Christians. Hebrews does mention the reality that the sacrifices for sin are fulfilled in Christ-- but that doesn't mean that the Old Testament ones were wrong-- rather they were absolutes correct and Jesus is the ultimate- and final- expression of the sacrifice.
One last point, the Old Testament's dealing and teaching concerning Israel has often been directly correlated with His dealing with the church. This is appropriate and there is nothing wrong with this so long as we don't forget the orginaly people group to whom the Lord revealed Himself in order to prepare a people to receive Christ.

[Bruce Carriker]

It's the other way around... Israel broke the covenant with God.

Wilson

AMEN! Thank you, thank you!

So...if we believe that Christians are God's chosen people, and that Israel broke covenant with God, why must we so frequently blather on about current national Israel?

They're a Jewish state, established primarily to ensure the Holacaust never happens again. They are our ally, and the only really functional democracy in their part of the world. For those reasons, we should support them.

[Mark Metcalfe]

Does God invalidate a covenant He makes even if the other party does?

[Judy Engel]

Does God invalidate a covenant He makes even if the other party does?

Good question. I was thinking along the same lines. Jesus death DID usher in teh New Covenant but is the old one invalid now?

[Hans Deventer]

Does God invalidate a covenant He makes even if the other party does?

I don't think so. Even the New Covenant is not so much a replacement as an improvement upon the Old.

A Covenant says something about how God will deal with us. Depending on waht we do, His reaction can be different. Jeremiah 18:7-10 is always a good illustration. But whatever we do, we cannot undo the covenant itself.

[Mark Metcalfe]

... Jeremiah 18:7-10 is always a good illustration. But whatever we do, we cannot undo the covenant itself.

Jeremiah 18:7-10 (New International Version)


7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

[Hans Deventer]

Jeremiah 18:7-10 (New International Version)


7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.



Yes, that's the one. God will remain faithful to himself, will remain the faithfull covenant partner.

[Larry Parsons]

God told Abraham that his descendants will conquer their enemies.Paul tell us If you belong to Christ,then you are descendants of Ahraham and will reeived what God has promiesed.So it is my understanding that God has one set of people who are call Christains.
Jesus at one point tell the Jews. that the Kingdom of would be taken away from them and given to new nation according to Peter that would be the
church. The Christains are God covenant people.

[Larry Parsons]

God did'nt break his covenant with Isreal. Remember the Covenants with Isreal was base upon certain conditions that must be kept. Jesus came started a new Covenant which include anyone Jews or Gentile

[Rick Teed]

The Jews have always been and still remain to be God's chosen people. Why, because God's Word states it and who are we to question that. If God said it then that should for every believer settle it. However, when they broke the Covenant with God, they became disobedient and thus have had to walk a historical path that was not meant for them to walk. God still watches over them, though they are under the judgement of disobedience and are having to face struggles through which God still calls out for them to turn to Him and accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour and King. The Bible states that Jesus came unto His own, and His own received Him Not. At an appointed time , the Bible says, In Revelation, that he will receive 144000. It could be more or less in reality but the Bible says 144,000 and that should be enough for us. Remember, what Jesus said to the Samaritan Women, that " A time is coming when the true worshippers of God will worship Him in Spirit and In Truth". Let's make sure that when that time comes and the Lord calls us by name, that He will say to us, as to how we have lived our lives for Him here on earth, "Well Done, My Good And Faithful Servant". God only asks 3 things of each of us.."To Do Justle, To Love Mercy and To Walk Humbly With Our God" and remember also, that before we can know the peace of the Lord Jesus, We have to experience His Grace. And when you know His Grace then you can live each day and worship in the fullness of His Love.

[BobHunt]

I guess maybe I am alone in this, but I still think the Jewish people are chosen ones and are special to God.
I still feel that is America or any other nation rises up against Israel, then they will have God to deal with.
When some went against Israel in the 7 day war, the Israelites almost chased them right out onto the lily pads of the Mediteranean. And, it may happen again.

[Larry Parsons]

Where is it in the Bible that says the Jews (who are a not race of people) will always remain God's chosen people no matter what?


Who is Abraham seed in Gen.22:17? Gal,3:16
Who are the children of Abraham? Rom.4:16,Gal.3:7,4:28-31.
What does Paul call the Christians? Rom.2:29,
Who is the new Israel? Gal.6:16, Eph.2:12,19
If we belong to Christ then we are what? Gal.3:16

Turn to Matthew 21:43. Who are the people that will lose the
Kingdom (they will no longer be cal God’s covenant people or
chosen people)

What else did Jesus say would happen to that generation of Jews?
Matt, 22; 6, 23: 37-38 and 24; 2
When did all this happen? Matt, 24; 34
Everything Jesus told his disciples between verse 4 and 36 of Matt.
24 took place in that generation that was living then. So in practice
the old covenant came to an end in A.D 70 when the city of Jerusalem
was destroy alone with the Temple Just like Jesus said would happen.
In the eyes and mind of God the old covenant and old covenant Jews
came to a end when Jesus cry out on the tree it is finish. Read Eph.2;
11-16

[Hans Deventer]

Where is it in the Bible that says the Jews (who are a not race of people) will always remain God's chosen people no matter what?


Check Romans 11 again to see what Paul wrote about a race of people called the Jews.

[Hans Deventer]

I guess maybe I am alone in this, but I still think the Jewish people are chosen ones and are special to God.

Bob, you are most certainly not alone. God feels that way, Paul does, and I do too. (not that the latter has much importance, but still ;-) )

[Edith K. Thurmond]

Where is it in the Bible that says the Jews (who are a not race of people) will always remain God's chosen people no matter what?


Who is Abraham seed in Gen.22:17? Gal,3:16
Who are the children of Abraham? Rom.4:16,Gal.3:7,4:28-31.
What does Paul call the Christians? Rom.2:29,
Who is the new Israel? Gal.6:16, Eph.2:12,19
If we belong to Christ then we are what? Gal.3:16

Turn to Matthew 21:43. Who are the people that will lose the
Kingdom (they will no longer be cal God’s covenant people or
chosen people)

What else did Jesus say would happen to that generation of Jews?
Matt, 22; 6, 23: 37-38 and 24; 2
When did all this happen? Matt, 24; 34
Everything Jesus told his disciples between verse 4 and 36 of Matt.
24 took place in that generation that was living then. So in practice
the old covenant came to an end in A.D 70 when the city of Jerusalem
was destroy alone with the Temple Just like Jesus said would happen.
In the eyes and mind of God the old covenant and old covenant Jews
came to a end when Jesus cry out on the tree it is finish. Read Eph.2;
11-16

Have you ever read this book?
http://www.giveshare.org/israel/judah/

Blessings,

[Larry Parsons]

what Paul is saying here in Ro.11 God has not and wil not deny Jews the right to be saved. Will all Israel be saved? Yes! But will it Abaham natural descendants or his spiritual descendant?
Read 1.Sam.2;30,Jer18:1-11,Rom11;22 and Jude 5-6
God has never made a unconditional promise to anyone or to any nation.

Rom.11 is not talking about a race of people but a group or a nation of people.

[Jon Twitchell]

The Old Covenant would include the Law of Moses, right?

I would think that Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17 ought to have some bearing on our discussion. I don't believe that we should see the New Covenant as a replacement for the Old Covenant, but a fulfillment of it. The New Covenant completes the Old Covenant. Similarly, the Church does not replace Israel, but has been grafted on to it.

Israel may not be living as the Chosen People of God, but that won't be the first time in history that they've abandoned their calling or position. I don't believe that means that God is finished with them.

Having said that, I don't believe that anyone is granted a position in the Kingdom of God simply because they have been chosen by God. I don't think that is true today any more than it was true during Old Testament times. But I do believe that the Jews are God's chosen people, and that I am God's chosen people because I have been grafted into His family through the sacrifice of Jesus.

Grace and Peace,

Jon

[Hans Deventer]

Rom.11 is not talking about a race of people but a group or a nation of people.

I disagree completely.

[Larry Parsons]

Abraham produced a PHYSICAL SEED which was the total of ALL his descendents...Ismael,Isaac,Esau,all the Arabs, all the Israelites,,etc

Abraham Produced a Nation (not A New Race) of Israel.
That nation came about through seed-line of Isaac then Jacob and 12
son This PART of the physical seed of Abraham,plus others who by the
rite of circumcision would become part of that nation that would be
governed by a covenant that was given at Mt Sinia through Moses. The
Nation of Israel was not chosen by RACE or by blood.

It is true that God said, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" but this didn't
establish the SEED on the basis of race nor blood, if that was so Ishmael
would have been included for he was just as much of Abraham seed line
as Isaac.
Hans, this my supprise you but here in the states the Jews didn't become a Race
until 1965 and just because our supreme Court Judges declare it was so doesn't make it so.
Larry

[Larry Parsons]

Verese 17, Jesus is saying I have not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets of the old covenants Verse 18 He tell the religion leaders of Isreal "I tell you the truth untill heaven and earth disappear the old covenant system will remain. If we think that verse 18 is refering to the planet earth then we must be still under the Law of the Old Covenant.Yet we know that not true so the heaven and earth must be referring to something else like the old covenants system must coming to a end before everything is fullfilled in Christ. In the 24th chapter of Luke Jesus says Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Lawof Moses, the the Prophets and the Psalms. This would include isaiah's promise of a passing of heavn and earth (51:6-16 and the creation of a new heaven and earth .
In the New Testament the destruction of heaven and earth is not refering to the phyical universe but to the passing away of disobedient nation of Isreal
Thanks
Larry

[Rick Teed]

Whe Jesus came to earth, He was thr written representation of the written Word. He came to His own people to take them beyond the Black and White Law.. He wanted them to realize that if you had thouhts that were inappropiate, say with how you looked upon a woman of the opposite Sex, then you were as guity as committing the act itself. etc. etc./The religious leaders of the day didn't understand the full picture and were teaching the people to follow a rigid set of laws instead of actually building a heart relationship with the True God of Isreal. When Jesus Rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, Jesus acknowleded the ignorance of Israel, Stating as He wept, That if Isreal only realized who it was who was coming to them. They were Blind to the King, nailing Him to the Cross... Jesus said " It Is Finished". Meaning that all the Father sent Him to do and accomlished was finished and that what the Law couldn't do (Saving the soul) Jesus did through being the perfect sacrifice (Blood shed and Body broken (Though no bones were ever broken). Israel remained His people But now because they denied Christ as Savior and Lord, The Gift of Grace and Salvation that was to be of the Jew soley would now incompase all those from every nation and every tribe within te world who would accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, Repenting of their sins and following the Lord through Baptism. This was to be and Is the New Israel ofobedient people. This though, does not remove the original standing for the old Israel as God's own... It has now just been reborn to involve the believing world.

[Larry Parsons]

Hello,
Jesus is the new Israel. In first few chapter of Mathew you get the picture of this,for example Jesus birth parallel of Moses birth Matt.216 EX1:15-22
His flight into Egypt andHis return from Egypt remind us of the same event in Israel history. During His time of temptation in the wilderness he was relives Israel time of test in the wildrness.
Those of us who are in Christ are now the the true Jews in the new Israel.
In mind of God the old Israel has pass way.
Thanks
Larry

[Hans Deventer]

In mind of God the old Israel has pass way. Thanks
Larry

I should remember you. It's great to have someone on board who apparently knows the mind of God so well. That should save us a lot of dicussions? :confused:

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, this my supprise you but here in the states the Jews didn't become a Race until 1965 and just because our supreme Court Judges declare it was so doesn't make it so. Larry

Larry, what de Surpreme Court thinks about this is totally irrelevant.

[Larry Parsons]

Thanks for remember me.Ha
Hans, when Jesus was on the cross not only did he became our substitate but he was also became our repersentive (2nd Adam) So in the mind and eyes of God when He look upon his son on the cross he saw the sinful human race. Remember Jesus swap identities with us on the cross (2cor 5:21 Phil.2:7-8)
I believe also in the eyes or the mind of God old Israel came to the end and Jesus and the Church has become the New Israel. The old earth and heaven has pass away if it hasn't then we are still under the old covenant Laws which has not be in practice for 2000 years.
Thanks
Larry
P.S
My mistake The Jews didn't become a race in 1965 it was not until 1985.
It is my understanding that the Jews themselves do not want to be consider
a race.Why should we?

[Stephen Kerr]

OK- so we are saved by faith, the Hebrews (I won't go into the Jews debate) often went astray but God has a conditional promise that when they repent He will restore them- God has been faithful to restore them in the past and God's past actions are a pretty good indication of His future actions (thus St./Ap.Peter reminds us that judment is coming- his idea of judgment by flood and future judgment of the wicked follow this hermeneutic)- Romans 11 says that arrogant gentiles ought to be humbled by the fact that God did choose them as His people and that they are more natural than grafted in gentiles.

I think, so far, most of who have posted agree with what I have stated above. So, now, here's my addition to the dicussion-

If the Hebrews -en masse- repent of their sins and turn to Christ Jesus as their savior Larry wouldn't have a problem then with calling them part of the New Israel. Well, that's exactly what's going to happen. Remember that great prophecy in Zachariah 12.10-- ahh- but read closely- God Himself pours out His Spirit so that they will repent and cry out for Jesus. I believe that this prophecy may have had an initial fulfillment with the birth of the church and the Hebrews accepting Christ at Pentecost- however, most prophecy seems to have a greater and fuller fulfillment and we can wait in anticipation at how God will pour out His Spirit on the Hebrew race to accept Christ as Messiah- what a grand day that will be- and Romans 11 will be fulfilled. ;)

[Jan McClellan]

So for those stating the the 'old covenant' falls away, why do we then teach our children the ten commandments... wouldn't that be a part of the old covenant?

[Andrea Larabee]

So for those stating the the 'old covenant' falls away, why do we then teach our children the ten commandments... wouldn't that be a part of the old covenant?

No they don't fall away. First, they are a great for helping us understand the mind of God. Second, all the Commandments are written out in the N.T. in various places, not a list like in the O.T. And then Jesus adds, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." John 13:34.

There is a more comprehensive answer to this but this is the basis of it. :)

[Larry Parsons]

So for those stating the the 'old covenant' falls away, why do we then teach our children the ten commandments... wouldn't that be a part of the old covenant?
I would like think we teach our children the Ten Commandments
so they could grow up to be civilize people. This was God purpose for
them all a long. We are not save because we keep the commandments
If we keep the greatest commandment that's found in the new covenant.We would have to worry about keep the 10.
Loving God with all your heart, soul and mind and love you neighbor
as your self.
Larry

[Larry Parsons]

OK- so we are saved by faith, the Hebrews (I won't go into the Jews debate) often went astray but God has a conditional promise that when they repent He will restore them- God has been faithful to restore them in the past and God's past actions are a pretty good indication of His future actions (thus St./Ap.Peter reminds us that judment is coming- his idea of judgment by flood and future judgment of the wicked follow this hermeneutic)- Romans 11 says that arrogant gentiles ought to be humbled by the fact that God did choose them as His people and that they are more natural than grafted in gentiles.

I think, so far, most of who have posted agree with what I have stated above. So, now, here's my addition to the dicussion-

If the Hebrews -en masse- repent of their sins and turn to Christ Jesus as their savior Larry wouldn't have a problem then with calling them part of the New Israel. Well, that's exactly what's going to happen. Remember that great prophecy in Zachariah 12.10-- ahh- but read closely- God Himself pours out His Spirit so that they will repent and cry out for Jesus. I believe that this prophecy may have had an initial fulfillment with the birth of the church and the Hebrews accepting Christ at Pentecost- however, most prophecy seems to have a greater and fuller fulfillment and we can wait in anticipation at how God will pour out His Spirit on the Hebrew race to accept Christ as Messiah- what a grand day that will be- and Romans 11 will be fulfilled. ;)
In the 8th chapter of the book of Matthew Verses 10-12 Jesus, begin to let us know
What would happen to the old covenant Jews who refuse to accept the new covenant?
The Sons of the Kingdom (the old covenants Jews who refuse to accept Jesus) would no longer be God covenant people they were cast into outer darkness (Out of the Kingdom) were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because of theirs lost and hatred of
Jesus. Also in the 21 chapter of Matthew 33-43 is another place Jesus is telling the apostate Jews they will no longer be part of God’s covenant people.(vs43)

The old covenant world came to a end in A.D.70.Way before all that took place Zechariah 12:10-11 told about that very event. How do we know that Zechariah is referring to a first century fulfillment? Turn to Zech.9:9 and Matt, 21:5, John,12:15 Zechariah’s prophecy of 9:9 come before the prophecy of 12:10 The price of Jesus betrayal as well as the potter’s field where Judas was buried is mention in Zech.11:13
Zech, 13:7 and Matt.26:31. All the prophecy of Zechariah including 12:10 were fulfilled during the first century.
Here the ?Who are the “ALL Israel” of Rom.11:26 ? The "all Israel" of Rom. 11:26 is the whole body of God's redeemed people. It is composed of "the election" The main purpose of (Rom. 9-11) and chapter 4, and Galatians (chapters 3-4) is to make known that the real "Israel," the true "children of Abraham," who inherit the promises of God, are not the natural seed of Abraham but his spiritual seed. Paul proves his doctrine, and at the same time exhibits the great difference between Abraham's natural seed and his spiritual, by citing the historical fact that "Abraham had TWO sons" (Gal. 4:22) there is big difference between the unbelieving mass of the Jewish people (answering to the son of the bondwoman) and the believing "remnant" (answering to the son of the free-woman). For those things, the apostle tells us, "are an allegory," (Gal. 4:21-31). Abraham's elder son, Ishmael, represents the natural Israel, those "born after the flesh." Ishmael had the first-born's place in Abraham's house for a number of years before Isaac, who was to be the true and sole heir, was born. And during all that time, which answers to the period from Sinai to Pentecost--that is the era of the old covenant--Ishmael was the heir apparent of all that Abraham had. Until Isaac appeared upon the scene, Ishmael (the old covenant Jews) continued to live in the house for awhile persecuting Isaac (the Christians who are the true heir of the new covenant (Gal. 4:29; 1 Thess. 2:15).
enough for now
Larry

[Scott Daniels]

I'm not sure that the discussion understands what it means to be "chosen." Abraham was chosen to be blessed so that all the nations would be blessed. I believe that being God's chosen people meant that they were selected not for exclusive salvation but to be the primary source of God's special revelation in the world.

Israel bears the name of Yahweh as their God, and thus they cannot profane his name or misuse his name among the nations because they are Yahweh's ambassadors and revelation in the world.

I think this is part of the problem in the Calvinism/Wesleyanism debate. We constantly read election in the light of salvation. The people who are "elected" in both the OT and NT (including Jesus) are not chosen for salvation - they are chosen as God's revelators or ambassadors.

[Larry Parsons]

I'm not sure that the discussion understands what it means to be "chosen." Abraham was chosen to be blessed so that all the nations would be blessed. I believe that being God's chosen people meant that they were selected not for exclusive salvation but to be the primary source of God's special revelation in the world.

Israel bears the name of Yahweh as their God, and thus they cannot profane his name or misuse his name among the nations because they are Yahweh's ambassadors and revelation in the world.

I think this is part of the problem in the Calvinism/Wesleyanism debate. We constantly read election in the light of salvation. The people who are "elected" in both the OT and NT (including Jesus) are not chosen for salvation - they are chosen as God's revelators or ambassadors.
In the 8th chapter of Matthew Verses 10-12 Matthew is letting his readers know.
What would happen to those who refuse to accept the new covenant?
The Sons of the Kingdom would no longer be God covenant people they were to be cast out into outer darkness (Out of the Kingdom) were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because of theirs lost and theirs hatred of Jesus. In the 21 chapter of Matthew 33-43 is another place Matthew is quoting Jesus saying that the apostate Jews they will no longer be part of God’s covenant people.(vs43) In the 22nd chapter he tell the Jews that their city would be burn. In the 23rd chapter He tell them that their house (temple) would be destroy and 40 years later everything that Jesus said took place. God gave the Jewish nation 40 years to repent for killing His son and yet they continue to refuse. In fact they went after the followers of Christ to wipe them off the face of the earth. And they would have succeed in destroying the Church if God didn’t put a lying spirit in the religion leader of Israel in believing that God would help them defeat the Roman empire.

Jesus warns the Christian Jews to flee from Judea when they saw the abomination of desolation of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. We also need to keep in mind the Olivet Discourse was not a massage to the world of our day it was a warning to the tribe’s of Israel of that day when their temple and city was still standing. The temple and the city was destroyed. The old covenant world of Judaism came to a end in A.D.70.Way before all that took place Zechariah 12:10-11 told about that very event. How do we know that Zechariah is referring to a first century fulfillment? Turn to Zech.9:9 and Matt, 21:5, John,12:15 Zechariah’s prophecy of 9:9 come before the prophecy of 12:10 The price of Jesus betrayal as well as the potter’s field where Judas was buried is mention in Zech.11:13
Zech, 13:7 and Matt.26:31. All the prophecy of Zechariah here including 12:10 were
fulfilled during the first century.
Who are the “ALL Israel” of Rom.11:26 ? The "all Israel" of Rom. 11:26 is the whole body of God's redeemed people. It is composed of "the elect" The main purpose of (Rom. 9-11) and chapter 4, and Galatians (chapters 3-4) is to make known that the real "Israel," the true "children of Abraham," who inherit the promises of God, are not the natural physical seed of Abraham but his spiritual seed. Paul proves this doctrine, and at the same time exhibits the great difference between Abraham's natural seed and his spiritual, by citing the historical fact that "Abraham had TWO sons" (Gal. 4:22) there is big difference between the unbelieving mass of the Jewish people (answering to the son of the bondwoman) and the believing "remnant" (answering to the son of the free-woman). For those things, the apostle tells us, "are an allegory,” (Gal. 4:21-31). Abraham's elder son, Ishmael, represents the natural Israel, those "born after the flesh." Ishmael had the first-born's place in Abraham's house for a number of years before Isaac, who was to be the true and sole heir, was born. And during all that time, which answers to the period from Sinai to Pentecost--that is the era of the old covenant--Ishmael was the heir apparent of all that Abraham had. Until Isaac appeared upon the scene, Ishmael (the old covenant Jews) continued to live in the house for awhile persecuting Isaac (the Christians who are the true heir of the new covenant (Gal. 4:29; 1 Thess. 2:15).
Enough for now
Larry