Mentally Disabled and Entire Sanctification

[David van Beveren]

One of our (almost) licensed ministers is working as a chaplain in an institute for mentally disabled persons.
One man in particular, she told me, is in tears when reading the bible and singing hymns. He is a believer as far as she can see, but he lives in a closed setting, because you cannot trust him with the little girls at the playground around the corner.
She has problems with the doctrine of entire sanctification confronted with these facts of life. How can she care for a person like this, what will be the result of the gospel of entire sanctification applied in this case?
And I can provide her with several theological answers, but they sound so theoretical to her.

[Brad Mercer]

I'm guessing that her problem is this: The pedophile is as surrendered to, and filled by, God as he can be, as evidenced by the fact that he is brought to tears by reading the Bible and singing hymns. And yet, he continues to be sexually attracted to little girls. Therefore, entire sanctification cannot deliver us from besetting sin. His perverted sexual attraction is beyond the reach of entire sanctification. Therefore entire sanctification is a false doctrine. Freedom from continuing sinfulness is available only at the point of death when we receive our glorified bodies, as the Calvinists suggest, or will only be available in this life with the advance of medical science to address the physiological bases for our behaviors.

Is that her basic thought process?

Brad

[David van Beveren]

Is that her basic thought process?

BradThank you, Brad, for your response.
Possibly, that is part of it, but not as rigid as you describe it.
I think the wording 'christian perfection' doen't always help us, because first we have to stipulate what we mean with perfection, even with the predicate 'christian' it is hard to explain.
(translations of 'entire' and 'perfect' sounds in Dutch almost synonimous)
Her idea is that entire sanctification implies that you can overcome the imperfection that you carry with you in your inner being. And she seeks how this truth relates to people with serious psychicological or psychiatric problems. People with whom she works. So it is not theoretical for her.

Another part of her reasoning is, that she finds holiness far to individual in its emphasis on character development. Her statement is you can never live holy, because, because life in itself is unjust and unethical. Our clothing can be made by children, because they are cheap, and our furniture can come from countries where wages are paid that are far to low. Lots of our trade and economy is unfair for large numbers of people in the world.
So we have a collective guilt to the poor parts of the world, and how can we speak of personal holiness when bearing our part this collective guilt.

Personally, I think, she is seeing the 'perfection clause' in our theology to be to absolute. And I am trying to explain holiness within the boundaries of a broken world, but somehow I cannot find the right words to explain.

[Brad Mercer]

Oh, wow. That would be a wonderful conversation in which to participate! NewStart was built with people like her. I'd start by conceding her point. Holiness cannot exist in an individual in isolation from other individuals. If it's not about relationships it's not about anything. On the other hand, it's not simply about ethical behavior, either. I think the task of wrestling with ethical issues is precisely the task of discovering what is the most genuinely loving thing to do in this or that situation.

She has two separate issues, it seems to me. One is the issue of how holiness addresses the global, as opposed to local, implications of my behavior: If I recognize the worth of all humans everywhere, how does that impact my buying (or voting) decisions?

The second issue is about how the idea of holiness intersects with psychological disorders, and perhaps more precisely, physiologically-based psychiatric disorders. They are both good questions, and that fact deserves to be acknowledged.

The answers are longer than I have time for right now, but I'll try to get back to it in the next few days if no one else says exactly what I'd like to say before I get to it.

You're a good man, David, and you (and your friend) are living right where the rubber meets the road. If it doesn't work where she is, it isn't true. I think it does work, and it is true, but it requires more than just our usual cliches and slogans to satisfy someone like her. It's really worth working through it with her to an honest and transforming conclusion, though.

Brad

P.S. I'd probably start by talking more about holiness and less about entire sanctification initially, though. You want to see first how "it" would work in the life of someone who had "it", before moving to a discussion of how, then, one could get "it."

[Hans Deventer]

Her idea is that entire sanctification implies that you can overcome the imperfection that you carry with you in your inner being. And she seeks how this truth relates to people with serious psychicological or psychiatric problems.

I'm hardly an expert here, but it does remind me of an image John Wesley once used.

He wrote about the Holy Spirit playing perfectly on a piano that is out of key, which of course is us.

I can't find the correct quote, I thought it was in his Letters, but this part of Sermon LVII comes close, describing human nature:

II. 2. Such was man, with regard to his corporeal part, as he came out of the hands of his Maker. But since he sinned, he is not only dust, but mortal, corruptible dust. And by sad experience we find, that this "corruptible body presses down the soul." It very frequently hinders the soul in its operations; and, at best, serves it very imperfectly. Yet the soul cannot dispense with its service, imperfect as it is: For an embodied spirit cannot form one thought but by the mediation of its bodily organs. For thinking is not, as many suppose, the act of a pure spirit; but the act of a spirit connected with a body, and playing upon a set of material keys. It cannot possibly, therefore, make any better music than the nature and state of its instruments allow it. Hence every disorder of the body, especially of the parts more immediately subservient to thinking, lay an almost insuperable bar in the way of its thinking justly. Hence the maxim received in all ages, Humanum est errare et nescire, -- "Not ignorance alone,' (that belongs, more or less, to every creature in heaven and earth; seeing none is omniscient, none knoweth all things, save the Creator,) "but error, is entailed on every child of man." Mistake, as well as ignorance, is, in our present state, inseparable from humanity. Every child of man is in a thousand mistakes, and is liable to fresh mistakes every moment. And a mistake in judgment may occasion a mistake in practice; yea, naturally leads thereto. I mistake, and possibly cannot avoid mistaking the character of this or that man. I suppose him to be what he is not; to be better or worse than he really is. Upon this wrong supposition I behave wrong to him; that is, more or less affectionately than he deserves. And by the mistake which is occasioned by the defect of my bodily organs I am naturally led so to do. Such is the present condition of human nature; of a mind dependent on a mortal body. Such is the state entailed on all human spirits, while connected with flesh and blood!

So entire sanctification may allow a perfect player (the Holy Spirit) to play on the piano of our life, but that piano is still out of tune, and sometimes very much out of tune.

[Hans Deventer]

I can't find the correct quote, I thought it was in his Letters

I think it is this one:

As thinking is the act of an embodied spirit, playing upon a set of material keys, it is not strange that the soul can make but ill music when her instrument is out of tune.

From a letter to Mrs. Bennis, RYE, 28 October 1771.

[Barb Bouldrey]

It sounds as if this person does not believe holiness is possible for anyone, including herself.

It sounds as if this person is forgetting that there is evil and sin in this world that fights holiness and Christianity.

Also mental illness used to be compared to the demoniac that was delivered by Christ. Mental illness is not demon possession. I do believe God can deliver a mentally ill person from their illness, but most mentally ill people are not accountable for what their illness causes them to do.

I worked in a mental hospital my summers between college years. There were patients that seemed very normal who would always be smiling, talking about God, singing hymns. I would wonder why they were there. THEN, one of their "spells" would hit them and they would become violent and "swear like a sailor." I was so shocked.

But I had to learn that those patients were not "in their right mind" and not accountable for their illness.

Some child molesters can just be addicted and then cured. Others need long term professional help and may never be cured. Thus, they are in an institution.

Just the fact that this man is in a mental institution ought to clue her in to the fact that he has an illness that needs a lot of help.

She should not judge Christianity and holiness by someone in a mental institution. And just because he sings hymns and cries does not mean he is a Christian who has confessed their sins.

Now, it is possible for him to have gotten saved and still need professional help...that is why he is here.

Sounds like she had some spiritual, doctrinal issues to settle within herself.

[David van Beveren]

Brad, I am looking forward to your elaborations in this thread.

Hans, I do understand this, and I can apply it to a lot of people.
But talking about this person, and let's make him hypothetical. So I put in several statements that are not known about him, so
He testifies of his conversion; even in his own words and on his own level he testifies of his total submission (is this dependant on our level of intelligence?)
And he is mentally disabled. That's why he is in a closed invironment.
My question in this case is, how far can we talk about sin properly so called, and sin not properly so called.

Barb, about this lady. She is known with the evangelical movement in Holland and she has her experiences because of an assignment for three years with the Mennonite Church (which is very liberal in the Netherlands). And 5 years ago she met the CotN and became very positive about the it because it's positive image of man and expectations for what a human being can become because of the grace of God. Her statements are not to be read as accusations against our theology, but as a (my speculation) 'help me to unite my experiences in the harsh reality of my work, with a theology that I do not fully understand, and of which I hope has an answer for this reality'
(I hope this makes sense, sometimes I think I cannot find the right words in English)

[Hans Deventer]

My question in this case is, how far can we talk about sin properly so called, and sin not properly so called.

That would be up to a psychiatrist to answer, David. To what extent is someone responsible for his/her deeds? Where does sin end and mental illness start? I can't tell.

[David van Beveren]

That would be up to a psychiatrist to answer, David. To what extent is someone responsible for his/her deeds? Where does sin end and mental illness start? I can't tell.My speculation
The psychatrist says: he is not responsible
And the pastor says: help me how I can apply my theology in ministering to this person.

[Hans Deventer]

My speculation
The psychatrist says: he is not responsible
And the pastor says: help me how I can apply my theology in ministering to this person.

Well, entire sanctification neither heals a broken leg nor a mental disease. But God loves both people with broken legs and with a mental disease, as much as that disease may lead to awful behaviour.

That's all I have, David. I have some idea of what to do with a broken leg, I have none if it comes to mental diseases.

[David van Beveren]

Well, entire sanctification neither heals a broken leg nor a mental disease. ...I think this is the crux. But it is to poor for helping this chaplain with working this through and let it land in her own consciousness.

[Wanda Van Winkle]

I guess I don't have the theological answers, either.

Some practical things come to mind, however.

We find it easy to define this sinner and his sin. So we have more problem dealing with the ability of a divine touch on the problem.

He has been defined and identified by our system, or society.

But as you can witness, various degrees of mental illness run rampant in our midst--neighborhood, work, church, NazNet, families.

Some system may not have identified them and their problems, yet they live among us as part of who we are. We do not doubt the ability of God to work in their lives.

Where does God's ability stop? Or where does it start? At what level of humanity can sanctification work? And if there is a certain point where we say, "God cannot do that," then is God really "doing that" in the other cases? Or are those people simply less challenging and able to conform to our standards?

What about the psycho-internet-persona who is mentally challenged? It doesn't hurt anyone else, so it doesn't bother us. We just overlook it and say, "Oh well, let them look foolish."

But when it comes to someone who physically hurts others, we not only become more interested in the outcome, but we also lack the faith that anything can be done.

In the end, perhaps the spiritual grace that will take us beyond this life and to an eternal one, if you still believe in a life after this one, can extend to people who go beyond our acceptable physical requirements on this earth.

In the meantime, we must continue to protect young children from pedophiles, to protect the elderly from opportunists, to protect everyone from murderers, etc. A practical approach to daily living helps us conform to life on earth; a spiritual approach helps us minister to these people who do not conform because their "spirit" doesn't harm others, except when it causes them to act out physically toward them. On the other hand, perhaps that brings the question back to your original one, and I have said nothing, but ended up like a puppy chasing its tail. ;)

[Barb Bouldrey]

The bottom line in this situation is that this man is in a mental institution. That says he is not normal, mentally.

You cannot define or explain sanctification by observing how God works in the life of a mentally ill person.

I knew a Nazarene pastor who was a recovered alcholic. He said that he would always be an alcoholic. After 30 years of being alcohol-free he would still fight a desire to drink if he saw a picture of a bottle of alcohol on the back of "Sports Illustrated." He could still "taste" it.

The difference is that the Holy Spirit had cleansed him of all unrighteousness and was & is the source of his strength to remain righteous and alcohol free.

Mental illness can be controlled by drugs and helped by therapy and counseling, but most of the time it cannot be cured. A mentally ill person cannot "quit" their mental illness and stay mentally-ill-free by choice and hard work, as an alcoholic can.

I believe it is possible to be entirely sanctified and mentally ill at the same time. The sanctified believer who develops alzheimers is still sanctified even after the memory is gone.

I believe a person in a mental institution can be saved and sanctified during times of lucid thinking....if those times exist.

No one should use people in a mental institution to help them understand any doctrine.

Barb

[Roland Hearn]

Hi David, how are you doing?
The questions posted here are difficult to answer effectively because you really have to be involved in the discussion to adequately understand the real struggles that are often behind the question. However here are a couple of things that have come to my mind in reading the post.
Firstly the struggle to adequately address the idea of performance in imperfect people, whether they have some mental struggle or just normal human dysfunction, is one that humanity has struggled with from the beginning. It is the issue at work behind the book of Job and it was one that John Wesley really worked at trying to find an adequate way of working through it so it would satisfy people’s questions. Ultimately one of his well known statements probably goes best towards addressing the issue, “let every man be a liar and God be true.” That may not be exactly what he said but it is close enough from memory. What he is saying is that even if all of humanity has fallen short of the goal of holiness you can’t escape that God calls us to that place.
The second thing that came to my mind was the idea that whenever we make the assessment of the idea of holiness about performance we have put the “cart before the horse.” Everything anybody does reflects what they believe to be true in any given set of circumstances. What a person believes to be true is often, if not always, distorted or impacted by their perceptions, their experience, their education, their fears and their understanding. When you put all of those things together what we do very often says more about our limitations then it does about our experience with God. By saying that people are imperfect and therefore not able to live holy is to make the situation about more than what God requires of us. His call to us amounts to our living in a complete (perfect) relationship with Him. That means I have surrendered the very essence of my being to Him and to His love. What holiness is and what entire sanctification does is give me the relationship with God that allows me to work through my limitations, failings and even sins and come to a place of confidence in His love for me and give expression to that in the way I relate to people. When I fail in those relationships love will cause me to want to find a way of healing that relationship, that is the very best that being holy can do it cannot promise me the capacity to not ever negatively impact another.
Because we cannot know what is going on inside the brain of another we cannot ever effectively judge the experience of another, we cannot know how love will work through that person given all of the emotional and psychological baggage they may carry. However, my responsibility is not to weigh up another’s experience but to weigh my own and make sure I relate to that other out of love. This women’s question actually has more do with her own fears about not being good enough, I expect, and she is looking to this difficult case to work through how God, His justice and His love work in his life so she can better understand how He, God, may work in her own. I would avoid the question all together by simply saying something along these lines, “I believe that God can work effectively in this person’s life whether that individual is able to let Him I don’t know and what God’s work will look like in one so distorted I cannot be sure. I can be sure of this, however, I can utterly surrender all that I am to His love and be confident He will work accordingly in my life. I cannot convince you of the truth of a theological perspective and to try to do so will only create more problems for you because it presumes I can somehow by-pass your own working thing through with God. I can say that I love you and will do all in my power to love you with the love of Christ and as you see Him working in me perhaps you will feel drawn more deeply into a similar confidence yourself. If you cannot see Him working in me nothing I say will make a difference to you. I ask you simply one thing that you leave your heart open to God and His love and let Him shape you in His image.” If you leave it at that and she is content to let Him do so then you have probably answered the question effectively

[David van Beveren]

Thank you all for stretching you out to meet my question. Actually it was not only a theological question, you can meet with a theological answer. I was looking for a deeper answer, but I don't no why, and I could not make it clearer. So sorry for that.
Roland you did a good job in looking for reasons behind the theological questions...
This women’s question actually has more do with her own fears about not being good enough, I expect, and she is looking to this difficult case to work through how God, His justice and His love work in his life so she can better understand how He, God, may work in her own. Is this not what looking for theological answers in fact is?
You writing this made me reflect on my first message. What you said to expect being the own fears of this lady, could be the undercurrent of my question as well. Because if I cannot really come to the heart of the matter, i.e. touching her heart with my answer, actually I don't have an answer for myself. And asking you on NazNet to answer this question is asking you to help me to challenge my own convictions, and to count them as dung, when they are not helping me, but instead only are barriers for digging deeper in my own soul.
Wow, Roland you did really a good work in opening me up.
NazNet is a rich place to be. It has even become more richer now you have joined in, Thank you.

[Thomas Weyandt]

Tough question here. I was once told I wasn't responsible to my porn addiction. I believe I am responsible but it is a constant pressure on my mind and heart and while I have not been buying porn I have vivid memories of it that overcome me every five days or so. I need a way of escaape from those memory based temptations. So far I have had limited success in redirecting the fantasies while pressure to get porn agaain is strong. Although not a pedophile I am uncomfortable in the pressence of teenage girls and I avoid them as a result and pray for help. Counselor believes I'm no threat. If she did she would call authourities and I would turn myself in if I believed I was a threat. Now I've REALLY bared my soul. Now what?

[Joel Merrill]

Tough question here. I was once told I wasn't responsible to my porn addiction. I believe I am responsible but it is a constant pressure on my mind and heart and while I have not been buying porn I have vivid memories of it that overcome me every five days or so. I need a way of escape from those memory based temptations. So far I have had limited success in redirecting the fantasies while pressure to get porn again is strong. Although not a pedophile I am uncomfortable in the presence of teenage girls and I avoid them as a result and pray for help. Counselor believes I'm no threat. If she did she would call authorities and I would turn myself in if I believed I was a threat. Now I've REALLY bared my soul. Now what?

Tom,

That is a very common addiction. You do not have to be mentally ill to be addicted to porn. It is also a very difficult addiction to get over because it involves a natural drive. I think all men battle this to some extent. You are doing well to avoid temptation. A solid prayer life and regular daily time of Bible study helps too. I wish I had a sure fire formula to cure this awful addiction but I don't. I will say that if you fail, don't give up. Get rid of it, ask the Lord for forgiveness and move on. Satan loves to keep bring back old sins that are under the blood to try to discourage us. I pray for you every day. I will pray about this as well.

Your brother in Christ, Joel

[Marg Webb]

Babara My Pastor Explained Sanctification As "to Be Set Apart". That Has Always Helped Me As We Hear So Many With Such Different Interpretation's.
Also With My Training And Guidance From Medical People, We Believe Positively That A Pedophile Is Never Corrected Of This. I Won't Say Healed, Because Our Father Can Do All Things, But They Must Want To Be Healed And One Will Find That Is Not The Case With A Pedophile. It Is Best This Women Look At This Man Clinically And Accept The Fact That He Must Be Kept Away From Children. Did I Understand He Is A Pedophile?
Do You Feel A Person Is Held Accountable If They Are Mentally Ill? Interesting Subject Isn't It.

[David van Beveren]

Did I Understand He Is A Pedophile?Yes, but because of his mental disabilities, not because of a psychological problem.
Do You Feel A Person Is Held Accountable If They Are Mentally Ill? Interesting Subject Isn't It. Yes, difficult question too. I think I have to answer this by repeating Hans' answer, where he said
That would be up to a psychiatrist to answer, ...

[Joel Merrill]

The bottom line in this situation is that this man is in a mental institution. That says he is not normal, mentally.

You cannot define or explain sanctification by observing how God works in the life of a mentally ill person.

I knew a Nazarene pastor who was a recovered alcholic. He said that he would always be an alcoholic. After 30 years of being alcohol-free he would still fight a desire to drink if he saw a picture of a bottle of alcohol on the back of "Sports Illustrated." He could still "taste" it.

The difference is that the Holy Spirit had cleansed him of all unrighteousness and was & is the source of his strength to remain righteous and alcohol free.

Mental illness can be controlled by drugs and helped by therapy and counseling, but most of the time it cannot be cured. A mentally ill person cannot "quit" their mental illness and stay mentally-ill-free by choice and hard work, as an alcoholic can.

I believe it is possible to be entirely sanctified and mentally ill at the same time. The sanctified believer who develops alzheimers is still sanctified even after the memory is gone.

I believe a person in a mental institution can be saved and sanctified during times of lucid thinking....if those times exist.

No one should use people in a mental institution to help them understand any doctrine.

Barb

Of the replies I have read, I agree the most with this one.

For one thing, mental illness is a very complicated subject. There are many kinds and many degrees of mental illness. We have been told very little about this man's mental illness so it is impossible to answer the question regarding this individual. It could be that he is schizophrenic and has no control of his second personality. I could understand his grief then when he was in his right mind.

I suffer from depression. I have begged God to deliver me of it. So far his answer has been medication. I am sanctified. I can tell you when and how it happened. I can tell you how it changed my life. My depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. Sanctification is spiritual, not physical. If sanctification cured mental illness, it should also cure cancer, diabetes and the common cold. To expect sanctification to cure a disease is illogical.

Glorification will cure us of this mortal body.

Joel

[Thomas Weyandt]

We need Christian books on mental illness and sexuality that are frank, informative and present correct info. I looked for years and found little so it is time to change that. How many people with sexual problems/mental health issues need help. Do Something now!

[David Crane]

I highly recomment the book titled, Every Man's Battle : Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time
by Stephen Arterburn, Fred Stoeker, Mike Yorkey (Editor)

Every christian man or teen-age boy should read this book. Every christian wife should read this book.

[Stephen Kerr]

I think this is a fascinating discussion. It is clear that Wesley believed that the body would still be subject to sin even after entire sanctification due to its weakness and imperfection caused by sin. He seems to indicate that this is why glorification is so powerful because we are given a body that doesn't grow tired, doesn't forget to call someone back when you said you would, and is always ready to worship and praise God without being drained or tired.

I find it fascinating, as well, that John Wesley seems to have invented some kind of shock therapy treatment for himself out of a chair... at least I have been told and have heard that this was the case.

Let's take another ailment that many struggle with- depression. Some say that a Christina who struggles with depression clearly can't be entirely sanctified- especially if that individual is struggling with thoughts of suicide and inadequacies since the person is a child of God and should have a new perspective on life. However, in our recent medical discoveries we seem to be linking depression with a chemical imbalance in the body- so that it is a bodily problem not a spiritual problem- and a bodily problem- if Wesley is right- can only be solved at glorification.

When I finally admitted that I was struggling with depression a few years back I realized that when I monitored it and sought medical attention my attitude changed radically. I used to joke with one of my proffesor's at Nazarene Theological Seminary that I had been entirely sanctified by Zoloft.;)

I think we might need further discussions on the connection between our doctrine of entire sanctification- which seems to mostly deal with the soul and spirit- and start looking more at the bodily implications as well. After all, we are spiritsoulbody altogether and really can't separate the three from each other without somehow loosing our humanity- or can we?

Clearly Paul recognizes that our bodies haven't quite got the picture of perfection yet. But Paul also says that our bodies do receive life from the indwelling of the Spirit (Rom 8.11).

I know of a mentally handicapped person who is one of my parishoners. He is genuinely moved by some of my sermons although I am not sure that he understands intellectually what has been said. The same applies with music in worship. Sometimes he begins singing away with real joy and rapture. I am thinking that, while his mind -that is - his intellectual capabilities might be limited his spirit is already soaring on the heights of heaven. Personally, this individual gives me much joy just being around him. His spiritual gift must be encouragement/exhoratation since this is so evident in his demeanor.

I don't know if I have added anything significant to this thread- but one thing I do know- God is gracious and merciful and His Spirit uses what the world thinks is weak for His glory and honor and praise. May this be so forever.

[Stephen Kerr]

I

[Joel Merrill]

I think this is a fascinating discussion. It is clear that Wesley believed that the body would still be subject to sin even after entire sanctification due to its weakness and imperfection caused by sin. He seems to indicate that this is why glorification is so powerful because we are given a body that doesn't grow tired, doesn't forget to call someone back when you said you would, and is always ready to worship and praise God without being drained or tired.

I find it fascinating, as well, that John Wesley seems to have invented some kind of shock therapy treatment for himself out of a chair... at least I have been told and have heard that this was the case.

Let's take another ailment that many struggle with- depression. Some say that a Christina who struggles with depression clearly can't be entirely sanctified- especially if that individual is struggling with thoughts of suicide and inadequacies since the person is a child of God and should have a new perspective on life. However, in our recent medical discoveries we seem to be linking depression with a chemical imbalance in the body- so that it is a bodily problem not a spiritual problem- and a bodily problem- if Wesley is right- can only be solved at glorification.

When I finally admitted that I was struggling with depression a few years back I realized that when I monitored it and sought medical attention my attitude changed radically. I used to joke with one of my proffesor's at Nazarene Theological Seminary that I had been entirely sanctified by Zoloft.;)

I think we might need further discussions on the connection between our doctrine of entire sanctification- which seems to mostly deal with the soul and spirit- and start looking more at the bodily implications as well. After all, we are spiritsoulbody altogether and really can't separate the three from each other without somehow loosing our humanity- or can we?

Clearly Paul recognizes that our bodies haven't quite got the picture of perfection yet. But Paul also says that our bodies do receive life from the indwelling of the Spirit (Rom 8.11).

I know of a mentally handicapped person who is one of my parishoners. He is genuinely moved by some of my sermons although I am not sure that he understands intellectually what has been said. The same applies with music in worship. Sometimes he begins singing away with real joy and rapture. I am thinking that, while his mind -that is - his intellectual capabilities might be limited his spirit is already soaring on the heights of heaven. Personally, this individual gives me much joy just being around him. His spiritual gift must be encouragement/exhoratation since this is so evident in his demeanor.

I don't know if I have added anything significant to this thread- but one thing I do know- God is gracious and merciful and His Spirit uses what the world thinks is weak for His glory and honor and praise. May this be so forever.

VERY VERY GOOD, Stephen :fav18 I have nothing to add except to say that was brilliant! I agree completely.

Joel :basic01

[Jan McClellan]

This is something I struggle with because I have a mentally retarded uncle who sins as every person does. He is of the mentality of a seven year old but in the body of a fifty year old man. When he was twenty his body and maturity of his body was that of a twenty year old but he still had the mentality of a seven year old. Basically after seven he stopped developing. I have heard about the 'age of accountability' and wondered where the nazarenes stand on this. (i am a nazarene, i don't mean to sound as if i'm not) I just don't know this answer, but I have often thought that Steve's sin (my uncle) is forgiven by God b/c Steve doesnt understand it is wrong... just as I keep my child from sticking her finger in the light socket b/c she could get electrified my father keeps steve from certain things because he knows that steve doesn't know they are wrong but needs to not do them...

[Joel Merrill]

This is something I struggle with because I have a mentally retarded uncle who sins as every person does. He is of the mentality of a seven year old but in the body of a fifty year old man. When he was twenty his body and maturity of his body was that of a twenty year old but he still had the mentality of a seven year old. Basically after seven he stopped developing. I have heard about the 'age of accountability' and wondered where the Nazarenes stand on this. (i am a nazarene, i don't mean to sound as if i'm not) I just don't know this answer, but I have often thought that Steve's sin (my uncle) is forgiven by God b/c Steve doesnt understand it is wrong... just as I keep my child from sticking her finger in the light socket b/c she could get electrified my father keeps steve from certain things because he knows that steve doesn't know they are wrong but needs to not do them...
Nazarenes do believe in the 'age of accountability', the debate is when that age is. I've heard people say it was as old as 12 before. I very distinctly remembering when I was 4 years old. I was in my bedroom after church one Sunday and I understood that I was a sinner and I asked Jesus into my heart. I never followed through with that and didn't make a lasting commitment until I was 17, but I understood that there was right and wrong and I understood the basics of salvation. So for me, I would say the 'age of accountability' was four. But I don't think it has to be the same for everyone. I don't know about your uncle. I do know that God knows everyone's abilities to comprehend and everyone's mind. He will not make any mistakes and that is what matters.

Joel

[Thomas Weyandt]

Thankyou for the book, These Earthen Vessels.v

[Joel Merrill]

Thankyou for the book, These Earthen Vessels.v

Glad I could send it. I hope it helped. Someone else mentioned a book specifically about porn up the thread a way. Did you see that one?

Joel

[Thomas Weyandt]

I'll check into it. Thanks again.

[Thomas Weyandt]

I have been away from this forum too long. I would like to say that most mental illnes are brain disorders and/or chemical imbalances. Schizophrenia is not split personality, it is a physical disease and is treatable. People with this disorder hallucinate and have delusions but it is treataable and so is bipolar and panic disorder and OCD which I have panic, bipolar and OCD.
When I come to and from this library I have to deal with thoughts of hurting myself and that isn't pleasant but to keep the ability to come and go places and expand it further I have to keep it up. The self harm thoughts involve hurting my eyes and I never have but the thoughts are pretty scary. It is tied to an extant to guilt. I also had thoughts years ago about suicide and killing others, again this was a variation of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. We as a group never act these thoughts out but are tormented by them. The thoughts of hurting someone over 30 years ago scared me into a strict, tied down form of religious fanatiscism. Am still haunted by the fanacticism though not of harming others. that experience made me suspicious of Christianity and God and still can't let Him take control of my life....and I am so very tired...depersonalization happens too and that is bad experience when your body and mind become unreal; combined with self harm OCD it is a beauty to go through...my private hell is not as bad as others but my relationship with God is...based upon suspicion of His motives. Wesley wrote of people with a "scrupulous conscience" who imagined sin and duty where the Bible enjoined a 'sin' or commanded a 'duty'. I envy you normal people who are at peace with God and can live and go where you wish and have had marriages (51 and single) and children. What can I leave behind??...when can I have peace??

[Joel Merrill]

I have been away from this forum too long. I would like to say that most mental illnes are brain disorders and/or chemical imbalances. Schizophrenia is not split personality, it is a physical disease and is treatable. People with this disorder hallucinate and have delusions but it is treataable and so is bipolar and panic disorder and OCD which I have panic, bipolar and OCD.
When I come to and from this library I have to deal with thoughts of hurting myself and that isn't pleasant but to keep the ability to come and go places and expand it further I have to keep it up. The self harm thoughts involve hurting my eyes and I never have but the thoughts are pretty scary. It is tied to an extant to guilt. I also had thoughts years ago about suicide and killing others, again this was a variation of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. We as a group never act these thoughts out but are tormented by them. The thoughts of hurting someone over 30 years ago scared me into a strict, tied down form of religious fanatiscism. Am still haunted by the fanacticism though not of harming others. that experience made me suspicious of Christianity and God and still can't let Him take control of my life....and I am so very tired...depersonalization happens too and that is bad experience when your body and mind become unreal; combined with self harm OCD it is a beauty to go through...my private hell is not as bad as others but my relationship with God is...based upon suspicion of His motives. Wesley wrote of people with a "scrupulous conscience" who imagined sin and duty where the Bible enjoined a 'sin' or commanded a 'duty'. I envy you normal people who are at peace with God and can live and go where you wish and have had marriages (51 and single) and children. What can I leave behind??...when can I have peace??

I don't know all the answers, my friend, but I still pray for you. You and I are the same age, by the way. I am almost 52 (May 7)

Joel :)

[Thomas Weyandt]

Thankyou for your prayers. I apologize for sounding off too much. I have hope for the antistigma video project may change some people's minds on mental illness. It is after all, a disease like any other but I long for the freedom most people enjoy without realizing how precious it is.

[Thomas Weyandt]

This is funny posting a reply to myself. Well, I spent almost a week in the psych or behavioral health ward locally. I was stressed out so much from things happening in my life that I needed a time out. Gone six months since last hospitalization and 27 months before that. Much was happening at the DropIn, should I go to Options partial program again, Clubhouse isssue, personal finanaces, should I attend conference for DropIn Center improvement, ect. all piled up and the conflict with pornography made a big imppact on me. I found my will to resist sliping...haven't bought any yet.
But I appreciate your prayers. DropIn is getting content protection software even though a new used computer has to be bought. Last mtg. went well over 2 hours! but we will be setting up area outside for half basketball court, volleyball, horshoes and picnic tables. That important mtg. I went to on pass from hospital. I am so tired....lost my W-2 and cannot secure extension form for PA tax. I owe very little if at all, maybye none, I'll see.
As for forum topic-mental illness can hijack your mind and that isn't pleasant.

[Marg Webb]

Thomas I thought your references were very well taken and I know I appreciated your writing.
I copied all off.
Keep up with those great meds.!! and your believing in yourself.
Jesus knows you better than you know yourself. I know you know that.
Many a time when there has been a problem to solve I just say to Him. "you know about this, I cannot humanly handle this, you take it and I release this to you".
It really works my friend. Really.
What is it they say, "try it, you will like it".:)
That is what I tell my questioning friends when they question me about my strong belief in the Holy Spirit.

[Thomas Weyandt]

Thankyou Marge for your comments and I'll try and follow your advice about problems too big to handle. Please keep DropIN Center in prayer everyone. It is a fragile organization run by mental health consumers but funded entirely by Tri County MH/MR and United Way. We do our best to be wise in our decisions but being human, we need prayer for getting along and spending wisely. Social rehab services we provide, with pool, shuffleboard, soon to be basketball court/volleyball court, internet, satellite TV and trips to Curve baseball game, annual camping trip and East Broad Top narrow gauge steam railway and Trolley coming up. Thanyou all and feel free to email me.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Many a time when there has been a problem to solve I just say to Him. "you know about this, I cannot humanly handle this, you take it and I release this to you".That is right.
I see it on my own.
I could say, "I can not because ADD or Narcissism or another reason".
But
Paul wrote, "I can do all things, powered by the one, makes me strong ...".
andJesus said, "You will get what you do believe",

so I never should give up my hope for becoming free totally.
Totally free.
For sure, today I am not free, but it is thinkable, in the next minute will touch me the holy spirit, the spirit of the lamb from Golgotha, arisen as the Eternal Living Almighty - and all my burdens are blown off. I have experienced this. From earliest children times I had anciesties. No reason, but always indifferent anciesties. They have been "prayed away" long years ago.
This could happen every day again.
It were wrong to await a miracle as a wonder - visible changings in a twinkling of an eye (this is mosttimes our wish, this is what we do await, this is how we do understand to be touched).

Maybe changings will happen in another way - I do not think to.

Beeing present during years day by day in the circle of spiritual sisters - could result in the miracle - "I am totally free".
Because by the time I learned to lay down my prior "old Adam" and took on the white cloth of forgiveness again and again. I learned to see and to identify the love of the Lord day by day - during years.

Healing must not be an act of special moments (as we do mosttimes await a miracle, "Right now I need help.")
Healing begins by forfeit - that means, it could happen also over a long time distance - according to my spiritual growth.
It is a learning process.

[Carsten Schermuly]

I forgot to say,

naturally I see my burdens in center of my interests.

It is what me hurts most.
It has a priority for me - naturally.
So I have as a center of my interests my own burdens,
nothing else -
just my burdens -
only my burdens.
No wonder, I am not happy.

So I must miss a happy life - always confronted with my burdens.

I am sentenced to live with what I have chosen by myself as my personally center of interests.

Let me change that.
Let me make Jesus Christ the center of my interests - and my burdens are out of my eyes, out of my view - at least they are forgotten, as good as no more existing.

Living this way for a longer time - Jesus Christ as center of my interests - and looking back later - I shake head about my self, what a senseless and unhappy life I have had, following my nature - chosen by my own while having burdens as center of interests
and not the Good News.

Good News
as center of interests,
what could be better?


(We must differ.
This means not physical sickness, OK? Please, it needs good will to understand right. But - Jesus Christ is also master of physical sickness.)

[Brenda Jackson]

Hello to all who have taken part in this fascinating discussion.

God promises in 11 Timothy 1:7

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and of a sound mind

SOUND

Strongs E4995

discipline ie self control - sound mind.

From what I know of mental illness, there is no self control at times or in severe cases, a lot of the time. Coming from a very strong background of mental illness ie schizophrenia I have had a lot of experience of relations who have not got a sound mind, and who do not belong to Christ.

However, when entirely sanctified, any tendencies within myself of being unstable were totally eradicated.

I think we have a problem of what exactly we mean when we talk about entire sanctification when it comes to the experience of it rather then the doctrine. I will attempt to make my own understanding clear on a new thread so as not to detrail this one.

in Christ
Brenda


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[Carsten Schermuly]

However, when entirely sanctified, any tendencies within myself of being unstable were totally eradicated.This I have watched on two former homosexual men at Berlin, Germany long years ago. Not sure in psychology and missing enaugh experiences, I am not able to make any other statement. On my own I have seen how hardest anciesties were blown away in seconds during a prayer in living room of Pastor Dr. Tim Kauffman, son of Dr. Alvin Kauffman. It meets your experiences. I must confess, I had doubts - but now - after your word, I believe again - all things are lain under his feet.

Thank you so much!
You did come in the very right moment for me!

Thank you!

Now I feel much better - what AD(H)S or ADD and Narcissism means! For several years I was unsure what to think about.

Have a bearhug (logic - just in phantasy). Thank you thousand times!

[Brenda Jackson]

Dear Carsten

Thanks for the bearhug :) I am pleased that I made you happy! Yes it happened in an instant. I was also healed in my soul of all the damage ever done to my emotions. No psychotherapy! I had also felt for a long time that there must be something more in the Christian life than I had experienced of failure and heavy burden. I thought that my chains had fallen off but they kept coming back onto me. This time it really was so. It occured once I could see that God wanted me sanctified and it was already done, 2,000 years ago. I did not have to wait for it to happen in the future. All I had to do was to believe it and submit to His workings in me so that He could quickly make it real to me in the criucifixion of self.

Brenda

[Joel Merrill]

Dear Brenda

I afraid I must strongly disagree with you. Mental illness is NOT a spiritual problem! It is physical and chemical. That is not to say that God does not sometimes heal mental illness but often that is through medication and treatment. We will not receive perfect bodies until we receive our glorified bodies in Heaven. It was through my suffering with depression that I became sanctified but I still have to take my medication. The NIV doesn't even use the words, "Sound Mind". This verse is talking about power to witness through the Holy Spirit. It is not talking about mental illness. Read it in context.

Joel

Hello to all who have taken part in this fascinating discussion.

God promises in 11 Timothy 1:7

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and of a sound mind

SOUND

Strongs E4995

discipline ie self control - sound mind.

From what I know of mental illness, there is no self control at times or in severe cases, a lot of the time. Coming from a very strong background of mental illness ie schizophrenia I have had a lot of experience of relations who have not got a sound mind, and who do not belong to Christ.

However, when entirely sanctified, any tendencies within myself of being unstable were totally eradicated.

I think we have a problem of what exactly we mean when we talk about entire sanctification when it comes to the experience of it rather then the doctrine. I will attempt to make my own understanding clear on a new thread so as not to detrail this one.

in Christ
Brenda


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This is my first post. My Welcome thread is here. Please post all my welcome messages there.

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[Thomas Weyandt]

Thankyou Joe. Mental illness is usually brain disorder/chemical imbalance and can last the rest of your life as it has me. I struggle with viewpoint of God towards me because my illness turned me into a religious fanatic and I hhave alarms go off mentally when santification is discussed because of traumatic memories that need time, understanding,

[Brenda Jackson]

Hi Joel

Paul is talking about the gift of God which includes power to witness but also to have a sound mind or a strong mind which means a mind which is free from disease which is absolutely vital in service to God as we must be able to withstand the enemy. Physical illness does not interfere with this. We can have an internet ministry and not leave our beds but it is impossible if we have a sick mind.

I know that mental illness causes physical effects in the brain, but I believe that the cause is from the spirit and from the negative emotions which are corrected when one has a new heart within. I speak from experience as I did suffer from depressions, mood swings and other mental health problems which went in an instant once I was ES'ed. Many people think that they have been ES'ed but it is not the real thing as it is so little understood today.

Even non Christian psychiatrists have seen miracle cures of mental ill health when the thought patterns have changed. I believe that the source is the spirit apart from degenerative problems.

[Joel Merrill]

I'm sorry Brenda but I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Joel

Hi Joel

Paul is talking about the gift of God which includes power to witness but also to have a sound mind or a strong mind which means a mind which is free from disease which is absolutely vital in service to God as we must be able to withstand the enemy. Physical illness does not interfere with this. We can have an internet ministry and not leave our beds but it is impossible if we have a sick mind.

I know that mental illness causes physical effects in the brain, but I believe that the cause is from the spirit and from the negative emotions which are corrected when one has a new heart within. I speak from experience as I did suffer from depressions, mood swings and other mental health problems which went in an instant once I was ES'ed. Many people think that they have been ES'ed but it is not the real thing as it is so little understood today.

Even non Christian psychiatrists have seen miracle cures of mental ill health when the thought patterns have changed. I believe that the source is the spirit apart from degenerative problems.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

*slipping in to listen and participate*

Interesting discussion.

i share from experience as a pastor's wife and as a nursing student. i want to state a disclaimer upfront that i by no means feel that my thoughts at this time are to be considered to be the absolutes. But, i do have a few thoughts.

i see tons of stuff in the NICU, neonatal intensive care. One of the things i see is mental illness due to untreated STD and hydocephalus babies. i see children who have various mental issue do to oxygen deparvation during the birth process, or medical issues/treatment following a tramatic birth or defect corrections. There is no way these babies are having a spiritual issues. Babies are innocent.

The brain is an organ - like any other part of the body. Our bodies are the Temple of God but very human. Humanity means that we aren't perfect, we won't get our perfect bodies until we arrive in Heaven.

Now, the part that i agree with is that emotions does play a *role* in our health. But, emotions doesn't play any greater role than lifestyle choices or physical defects due to accidents or birth.

What role does Christ play in all of this? Scripture does tell us that by His stripes we are healed, but nowhere does scripture say that ALL people around Jesus were healed - or ALL people who believed were healed. IF this were true, Lazarus wouldn't have died.

Just some of my immediate thoughts.

[Carsten Schermuly]

I like to put a bit oil on the waves.
In case I tell, "My cars tires lost air" - does that not mean "all cars tires on this globe will loose air".
As I understand this story, Brenda told just what has happened to her - she erected not a law by this "all mental sickness are an expression of a spiritually problem" - OK?
Or am I wrong?

By the way,
I for me - I think the very same way. It is for me as Jesus said "You will get what you did believe". My lightning examples are people like Lazarus, called back to life or Bartimäus, got back his eye light - against all science knowledge and against all logic. I have seen such miracles already by my own eyes.

On the other side - I see and hear daily the great dramatic stories around me - and the many prayers - and I am not able to do any statement about. Every case is a personally case and differs to all other cases. Thinking to cancer victims I lived with, my tears will run down - it is so bad! And we are so helpless weak.
All we can do is never to give up hope and try to help another in the best way ever found - and pray for another.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Carsten - i have seen miracles and amazing things. Some of the most amazing, i never post because of the rhetoric that i would receive. One lady, of whom i have seen miracles occur, asked that i contact her later this week for another time of prayer.

i agree with you - 50%. i can't go 100%.

The more i see/experience and learn - the less i can put anything in a box; most importantly God. His ways aren't our ways. We want desparately to find a magic something that will enable us to live an utopia life here on earth.

God isn't some magic potion.

i wish He was.

Making good choices emotionally, mentally, spiritually and in lifestyle go a long way in helping to have an element of utopia - but a train wreck could be around the corner and our little box smashed.

God is still God - even with smashed boxes.
We are still His beloved children - even with smashed boxes.

i love the picture that He gave us in Scripture as our Shepherd. Sometimes we dance and prance along beside Him. Sometimes we wander off with our friends to chat and play, with Him in our eyes gaze. Sometimes we fall into a hole and must be carried.

During the times of being carried - we are in pain. Pain is a very complexed part of our being. Something i am extremely interested in, yet -the more i know the less i know. Pain of the heart - -

[Carsten Schermuly]

... but nowhere does scripture say that ALL people around Jesus were healed - or ALL people who believed were healed. I agree to.

But - the innocent Babies.
Parents and grandparents are not innocent. The Lord had promised, "Once you will forget my commandments, I will forget your children". We see that proofed daily around us. Not after a quick view on surface as a fasten spoken judgement - by looking neaerer in families histories - one, two, three generations back - and we can often already see, who is responsible.

[Carsten Schermuly]

IF this were true, Lazarus wouldn't have died.An old rhethoric question,
What is better - to stay in this world or to see the other world - saved on Abrahams lap?

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

I agree to.

But - the innocent Babies.
Parents and grandparents are not innocent. The Lord had promised, "Once you will forget my commandments, I will forget your children". We see that proofed daily around us. Not after a quick view on surface as a fasten spoken judgement - by looking neaerer in families histories - one, two, three generations back - and we can often already see, who is responsible.


From generation to generation - i agree, Carsten, that decisions of the parents many times render results to the children - - but i can not stand and declare that ALL things belong to the parents.

i have yet to meet ONE human being - or ONE human family that is blessed beyond measure with absolute perfect health, riches, intelligience, understandings, emotions perfectly alighted - both inwardly and outwardly...


Yet, i know that Christ didn't die in vain. There will be people in Heaven; therefore, i conclude that we won't be perfect until we arrive in Heaven.

measures of perfection -perhaps - but not perfect


You?

[Carsten Schermuly]

Carsten - i have seen miracles and amazing things. Some of the most amazing, i never post because of the rhetoric that i would receive.

and so onI guess you like to help not to make the mistake to judge.
Is that correct?

Please be sure - I do not. There are a few things in the world I got an opinion about, made from concrete armed by high quality steel - like "the KGB was a murder gang". Sounds hard - but the hardness is not mine, the hardness comes from the fact, "the KGB was a murder gang". I am not zynic - the world is zynic.


I know already today - next times I went to altar, I am healed from ADD and Narcissism. I write Brendas name on a paper not to forget. And then I ask the Lord to do the same on me he has done on her. I know already, I am healed then.
We can know such things.

For nearby two years I was pushed by sisters from Frankfurt / Main to go to a well known counselor named Arthur Richter, lived in Anderten near Hannover - to invite in my heart Jesus Christ as my saviour. But I had not the desire to do so. Following common christian usings, I still read the bible, joined meetings, had my daily silence and so on.
Then on a day in November I have "seen"
"Now you must go!"
There have been some "Guest days" over New Year - with Arthur Richter. Very beloved and quickly outbooked. I stood in flames to get a place in the right time!

The train was too slow.
Later the bus was too slow.
I could not await to become a child of the Lord.
I did know already before "Then I am healed".

This I know also right now.
We will talk later about when I am back from Altar - OK?

I know it.
For me Brenda came in the very right moment with her small phrases.

[Carsten Schermuly]

From generation to generation - i agree, Carsten, that decisions of the parents many times render results to the children - - but i can not stand and declare that ALL things belong to the parents.Sorry, I did not say only "parents, I said "parents and grandparents" and I must add to be precise, "and greatgrandparents - and their parents" because - three or four generations could be responsible.

That means,
once I came to the idea to went to spiritism - I played with the future of my children!

I am happy, very happy, the Lord has broken the chain of unhappiness! Ruth and I are from families with no good histories - married, divorced, married, divorced -. Following the rules, we both had to be also children of the world. But we are called. I am very happy about!
We see the attacks on our marriage!

That means not
once my son needs a kidney transplantate, I am responsible because my sin.
That means not
to make the same mistakes, the "wise" friends of Job did.
Are we in unity?

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

*nods* Yes, Carsten - you did say generations and i meant to say the same. The problem with this medium is that we don't always say it correctly. If we were in person and i had said *parents* your response back and mine would have been quicker that this one would have floated away.

i don't want it to sound that i am not acknowledging the miracle of healing that occurred for you and Brenda. i have been healed of Epstein Barr Syndrome. i understand healing.

Where i can not get on the same page of agreement is that with the concept of absolutes - that ALLL Christians will be healed of ALLL things that ails them. i don't believe that. i can't accept the declaration that ALLL defects of children are due to something someone before them did.

i do believe that many Christians are in bondage to things that our Lord desires to deliver from them - but because of personal choices - , He can't.

i know others who are like Paul - have an ailment - and give God glory through it.


i think it is okay to agree to disagree on some things, Carsten. *smiles to you*

[Carsten Schermuly]

Once the journey through our earthly days were simple and easy, for what were died the Lord on Golgotha?

Yes, we do understand another.
And we know from what we do talk.
We can sing about the good things we have seen,
what a grace!

[Carsten Schermuly]

On the knees ...
you wrote in your profile. To be on the knees and to say "Thank you!" and "Please!" is the only right way. To make a decision is not our place, the Lord is souvereign to meet any decision. Once we do not know what dark days under burdens are, how we could know what light, forgiveness, healing and joy means? It is as it is. We can turn the things like we want - the bottom line is all the times to love another.

[Thomas Weyandt]

God can miracouly cure mental illness. Psychotherapy in OCD causes measurable changes in the brain when it works just like medications used for OCD treatment which also treat panic disorder, depression,ect. I had a conversation last night that pointed out that I should not define myself by my illness and though not in total agreement with that person I promise to never whine about myself. Yet mental illness remains a legitimate disease subject to treatments by meds/therapy or healing by God who created meds/therapy in the first place. You must seperate spiritual from physical/emotional and yet treat them all to get it right.

[Carsten Schermuly]

You must seperate spiritual from physical/emotional and yet treat them all to get it right.Dear Thomas, please, do you mean me by this "You"?

[John Kennedy]

I find it inconceiveable that anyone can be talking about mental disability and entire sanctification in the same breath. Mental disability results from a myriad of factors, none of which are remotely related in any way to our relationship to God or the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
I thought those who believed in the necessity of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer (regardless of the method or sequence of arrival) had gotten past that long ago. Kind of reminds me of some of the incredibly twisted and unbiblical preaching I heard years ago.

[Joel Merrill]

I find it inconceiveable that anyone can be talking about mental disability and entire sanctification in the same breath. Mental disability results from a myriad of factors, none of which are remotely related in any way to our relationship to God or the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
I thought those who believed in the necessity of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer (regardless of the method or sequence of arrival) had gotten past that long ago. Kind of reminds me of some of the incredibly twisted and unbiblical preaching I heard years ago.

Amen Brother :fav18

Joel

[Carsten Schermuly]

Mental disability results from a myriad of factors, none of which are remotely related in any way to our relationship to God or the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives.This is not true. We have to see that flexible - it can be so - but it can be also in another way.
Example
In Germany Narcissism will be counted as a sickness. I am not interested to make it a culture, I am interested to overcome it - and I am not a hard case, what a luck! But people get money from social cashes in case they are not able to hold a workplace - because they can not live in peace with others. It sounds like a joke - but is bloody truth. The most of them are proud of - "I got it!" - once their papers are accepted and the warm rain begins. That means to live (with low standards) and must not miss anything - without to work - only because this people are not able to learn discipline.

As we know, Narcissism is a result from bad parenting.

This has not clearly a spiritual background?
For sure it has.

Parents failed to watch their responsibilities - that is clearly a spiritual problem - or not?
The child becomes a Narcissist - and will not be corrected. What the child - grown up to an adult does as a narcissist is sin because an adult is able to steer his doings by will.

As before -
nobody can speak in statements in this themes. We must differ in every single case.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Is this question important?
I think, No.
It does not matter from what a desease comes, where its roots are - that is secondary.
Priority has the question what to do with.
Jesus can do all things ever. To hope for his grace is much more important as to know, a desease has a spiritual background or not - right?

[Carsten Schermuly]

The entire discuss is a dangerous game.
What is the motive to talk about?
To look for a solution or mindst for betterness?
To be a comrade?
To point to hope?

[Carsten Schermuly]

What does help best?
To know,
"there is someone praying for me."
That makes brave.
That gives hope.

[John Kennedy]

I stand by my statement. Mental disability is a 'head' matter. Entire sanctification, in whatever form you choose to define it, is a matter of the heart.

I have known people who suffered from mental illness. Their disabilitywould sometimes lead them to do things they otherwise wouldn't have even thought of doing. But they would tell you, and mean it, that they loved God with their whole heart, mind, and strength.

[Joel Merrill]

I stand by my statement. Mental disability is a 'head' matter. Entire sanctification, in whatever form you choose to define it, is a matter of the heart.

I have known people who suffered from mental illness. Their disability would sometimes lead them to do things they otherwise wouldn't have even thought of doing. But they would tell you, and mean it, that they loved God with their whole heart, mind, and strength.
Absolutely, John!!! I can tell you as a person who has suffered greatly from depression that people are doing great harm telling a depressed person that their illness in spiritual! You may just push them over the edge!!! No one ever prayed harder than I did when I was going through my depression. I laid on my bed and cried like a baby for hours and hours day after day. All I could do was pray. I begged God to deliver me. I gave him everything over and over and over. Like I said in an above post, it was through that time that I became sanctified but sanctification didn't heal my depression. I had to go to a doctor and get medication. I have to take that medication every day. I have tried several times to get off of it and my depression comes right back. Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. It is no more a spiritual matter than diabetes or high cholesterol. It's like saying every part of your body can get sick except your brain? Oh duh!!! Sure God heals some people. He heals some people of many diseases. Some people just get over depression on their own. Some of us have to take medication for it for the rest of our life. Having a medication that works is my answer to prayer. Those of you who think mental illness is spiritual might as well say the world is flat. It is a stupid statement.

Joel

[Gina Stevenson]

... that doesn't seem to give a hint of the details re what he's been talking about this week as a guest [yes, if there's an interesting guest, I'll turn on the Bakker show in the afternoon once in awhile ... if I remember to check to see if anyone interesting might be on, since it's early ... 3pm].

http://lifeskillsintl.org/index.htm

[edit: here's another link that lists more pages than first one: http://lifeskillsintl.org/index_files/Page456.htm ,
and finally the "healthy family wheel" -- whose parts must be healthy to adequately contribute their part: http://lifeskillsintl.org/index_files/Page1633.htm ; seems the brain's a complicated thing ... "fearfully & wonderfully made."]

Anyway, he had some detailed x-ray-type pics shown today re a brain over several weeks/months, indicating how new pathways are actually developed over time [taking something like a total of three years to revamp these pathways/ruts]. Interesting how it was this length of time re the mind being able to be "fully renewed" if one worked at it ... since that was about the length of time Jesus spent with his group of disciples .................

Always interesting, hearing about which part of the brain does this or that ... and seeing the pics of the same actual brain portion that changed over time ............

There's one last day of this on Friday, if you happen to get the program in your area, and are interested in these cranial matters [Romans 12:1-2, Philippians 4:8]. ;)

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Gina - yes, things do change the brain over time. What is cool is that oils can go passed the blood brain barrier to work at reversing the change of the brain - back to its created state. Grant it - it takes time, because it didn't start over night. It can reverse it; whereas, taking medications alone just treat the symptoms of the change.

[Thomas Weyandt]

My opinion on mental illness comes from personal expierence and observed scientific facts. If I have diabetes I take my medicine which I do. For my multiple brain disorders I take meds but prayer from you folks has caused my panic attacks to decrease recently. I consult with other Christians and my counselor is one although working for a secular company and my non-Christian psychiatrist has never attacked my faith but he believes I've gone as far as meds can take me. God watches over me and yes I have had problems with people who don't believe in mental illness.

[Brenda Jackson]

Oh dear

I really have stirred things up here.

First of all let me say that I do not believe the WoF doctrine that physical healing is part of the atonement and all we need to do is have faith. I think that this is damaging. It is obvious that the disciples suffered from physical problems and they were not told to just believe and it will go away. We will not have perfect bodies in this life.

Also I do believe that some mental illness problems are due to physical defects and the same applies. However, I hope that we all agree that God CAN heal physical conditions instantly whenever He wants to but for whatever reason, the fact remains that many believers continue with crippling disabilities.

I do not believe in the current physical explanation for certain mental illness. The mind is not the brain, and I believe that the mind or the soul is very much connected to the spirit. In Entire Sanctification, there is a division of the soul from the spirit so that the spirit can function along with the Holy Spirit unhindered and what 'comes out' will be purely spiritual and not a mixture of ourselves.It is spoken of in Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper then any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit

I am speaking of my own experience when I say that God performed this operation on me and in an instant, I became whole mentally and spiritually and I walked without any sin either in mind or body. All of the pain from my life was instantly healed and there were no scars left, it was as though my life had happened to someone else not me. I was able to walk in love towards those who had damaged me.

If someone is saying that they do not believe it, it is because it has not happened to them, and I do not doubt that some have prayed and prayed for this and it did not happen. It cannot happen until the right time. We have to go through things first as it is a process of laying ourselves down on the altar according to what issue God is dealing with us over at the time. It happens instantly but it takes time to get to that point. This is from my own life.

If we are weak in our minds then Satan can defeat us. Our mind is his battleground. God intends for us to be victorious here and to have peace and joy. He never says physical health but he says peace and joy and in order to have thses two things we must have mental health.

It is not a matter of saying you would be well if you had enough faith. We all think that He can heal don't we? Scripture tells us that He will heal the soul and the spirit. He gives us a new heart and renews our mind so that we have the mind of Christ. Either we believe what the scripture says or we stay where we are. It is worth taking the chance in believing it and then letting Christ tach us how.

[Carsten Schermuly]

I agree totally.
You are blessed to say it so clear - this way you did!
Thank you thousand times.

Reading elder voices, I see, it needs to meet better common definitions. It seems, there could be rected walls - without any real needing - just because common definitions are missed.
I guess, all do mean the same - no matter, what personally experiences.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Entire sanctification, in whatever form you choose to define it, is a matter of the heart.Once you form such a thought out - please,

did you think to men power - to be busy to look for holiness (e. g. like Paul teaches),

OR

did you see that chapter from the view of Jesus Christ, the Almighty?



Please
do not think, I am judging. We are challenged to help another - OK?

[Carsten Schermuly]

The Lord had a plan with the paradise. (I think so.)
He could not reach the goal because sin of men.
What, they had not done a sin - followed their own mind?

Later,
the Lord had a plan with his choosen folk Israel.
He could not reach the goal of that plan - again because sin of men.
What, they had not done a sin - followed their own mind?

Can it be - we, creatures of the Lord, living in the (fallen) creature "World" of the Lord, are now again part of a greater plan - including sickness?
What, we ask the Lord for it - instead to be too fasten to look for an understandable answer?

For sure - we do not like our sickness, so we are unpatient to become free from it. That is our nature.

The Lord does see us - in our needings.
He is watching us - unpatiently working for a men made solution (Physicians, surgeries, medications, etc).
What, we ask him for his will, what he was planning with us - in our sickness - instead to be unpatient and in fears, we could miss a better earthly life by what we do understand under a healthy body or healthy mind?


I have read years ago only the beginning of Joni Earicksons book. I closed it and did no more touch it. What I have read seems me to contradict to the Lords love. Then came the movie. Everybody of my community has seen. Our people bought cinema entry bills bundeled to have rebates. (Yes, we did - this is also possible to see a movie in a cinema.) Then I could not say No - I had to listen to Jonies story.
I was ashamed.
We think, we must be healed.
We do not feel comfortable as sick people.
We must not.

What we must - we must die.

This theory is not in unity to my life. I would be enjoyed much, I never ever had learned what AD(H)S, ADD will be. I am also unpatient to overcome that "must think in other ways, can not think in normal ways". I look also up to others, having a more happier life as "healthy" people. (Do they really have?)


Do we follow our own understandings, our own mind - or have we set on top of our life,
"Thy will be done"?
A very uncomfortable question in relation to all sickness.

[Gina Stevenson]

Originally Posted by Brenda Jackson
I am speaking of my own experience when I say that God performed this operation on me and in an instant, I became whole mentally and spiritually and I walked without any sin either in mind or body. All of the pain from my life was instantly healed and there were no scars left, it was as though my life had happened to someone else not me. I was able to walk in love towards those who had damaged me.

··········································

While not refuting that God touches a person in such a way that much can change "in an instant," we still have Romans 12:2 which, aligning with II Corinthians 3:18, appears to be a "from [one level of] glory to [another level of] glory" thing ... rather progressive, than instantaneous, considering there´s also II Corinthians 5:17, which speaks of all things as ¨becoming¨ new, progressively.

#####################

from Strong's concordance (re II Cor 3:18)
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting
in praise, honour, and glory.

which seems to indicate, according to above, that as people around us see continuing change in us, their opinions are affected accordingly, little by little ..........

blessings in your journey to wholeness .........

[Brenda Jackson]

Hi Gina

In 2 Corinthians 5:17, the Greek is ginomai, or come into being, and is used in the Middle Voice, where the general meaning is a spontanious state or change of state so I believe thatt he version you are using has not stated the meaning correctly whereas in the KJV it says all things are become new. Interestingly, when I showed a Greek friend the doctrine of entire sanctification from scripture, he said that his version (NIV) was nowhere as clear as my KJV and was much nearer to the Greek although he is not a Koine student.

The view of gradual sanctification is not supported by scripture Gina, nor does it accord with our experience. Are you more filled with love for Christ now, and more obedient than the day you first met with Him? Many mistake theological knowledge for sanctification.

Hi Carsten

It seems, there could be rected walls - without any real needing - just because common definitions are missed.

Yes so true. We do need to specify clearly what we mean by the terms we use. It is especially important concerning holiness because as scripture says, without it we do not 'see' God.

The answer to suffering sickness or whatever condition we find ourselves in, is to die to self and to accept and be at peace with whatever circumstances we find ourselves in and be like Paul, content. This is not to say that we should be content with our spiritual condition. No, we should not be if the Lord is pushing us on because one day we will stagnate and settle like the lees in the wine and miss the glorious blessings He has for us, in this life.

Joni found peace though I do not know whether she was entirely sanctified, but I have not heard it said. Sometimes we can just submit but that is only the first step. When we learn to praise God for the things that have caused us the most pain or to 'kiss the hand that strikes us' then we are truly servants.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Fact is
sickness does not come from the Lord.
Sickness is a logic consequence of sin.

(Now the old and unbeloved (and stupid) discuss, "are sick people sinners?". They must not carry responsibility for their own sickness, but in some cases it is so. We have already seen before, responsible are also earlier generations.)

The desire of the Lord is holiness, is healing, is to love, to do well.

We make often a capital mistake
and see our burdens in foreground.

First
we shall try to get the Lords righteousness,
second
he puts on us what is needed.

Our interest should be holiness - not our sickness.

--- "I believe" (must not be read as law, OK?)
I believe, sanctification meets spirit, body and soul. We might see that or not.
We can not split. "mind sickness is a thing, happening in head, sanctification is a thing, happening in heart".
Readiung the bible, we see, all kind of sicknesses have been healed by the Lord, also mind sickness.
Once someone knees in front of Altar (or praying at home or in bed of hospital, in common with others or lonely), also his sick body is blessed, not only his spirit and soul because forgiveness - no matter, his body is seen as healed or as not healed. To come nearer the face of the Lord, makes us not only stronger in mind, it helps also our weak body up. Maybe we do not note that. I believe it is so.
--- end "I believe"


another thing
Once you know greek and you like to write single greek words in greek letters, take this small page, it will help a bit - with the restriction, a reader must have the scripture installed "(Microsoft) symbol.ttf" - or this scripture with the same name of another system.
http://haufenzeug.de/cs/pics_for_NazNet/tools/greek.htm

It needs to use the HTML command
"font face=symbol"
See source code of
http://haufenzeug.de/cs/pics_for_NazNet/tools/greek.htm
(Right mouse click on a free area of that page and choose "show source" - or what your browser will offer.) Unfortunately it does not work with the forums BB - Code.

[Carsten Schermuly]

First
we shall try to get the Lords righteousness,
second
he puts on us what is needed.


The german Dr. Ursula Wisemann is now retired. She worked as a Wycliff Bible Translator and has been for 17 years in the Amazonas djungles with a folk named Auca. The following story I have read in one of her books, named "Emanuele" - and I have listened to her while a "Guest - Weekend", held on the seat of the german branch of Wycliff Bible Translators in Burbach - Holzhausen near Siegen, Germany.

The first man from the Aucas, talked to her and a second Lady (correct "stepped in communication" - to talk was not possible in beginning) from the Wycliff Bible Translators, found out the desire of the both Ladies. They liked to hear the names of things. Once they did point on a thing, he named it. So the Ladies could find a written language - by common rules of Phonetics.

This man was also the first, that was baptised.
He got the name Emanuele.

His interest was to help to spread the word - and he did what he was able to do.

He never has learned to read and write - simply because a written language was not known. The Aucas had only a spoken language.



First
we shall try to get the Lords righteousness,
second
he puts on us what is needed.

Emanuele gave his testimony - and asked for a bible. He has read out of it some verses!
He - a man never has learned to read or to write!
He read the bible!

Later he became the first pastor of the Aucas.



First
we shall try to get the Lords righteousness,
second
he puts on us what is needed.

We shall trust in the Lord.
His desire is to love, to do well, to heal.
Our place is not to look on our sickness, our place is to be busy for holiness.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Many mistake theological knowledge for sanctification.For this I use often different languages while reading the bible - not only the german Luther 1912. I have not learned Latin, but I can use in single cases the Vulgata (and the KJV and the french Darby) - to make things more transparent. Many words of modern languages have their stem in latin words.

All things are new.
We could ask people how they feel, once they are returning from Altar, they feel as to be new.

In my case - over the years as a child of the Lord I have seen more and more how much I am beloved by the Lord. This gave me another worth, a new selfidentification, it made me new.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Originally Posted by Brenda Jackson
I became whole mentally and spiritually and I walked without any sin either in mind or body.In german not known "I became whole". I do understand, what is meant, but for german ears not a daily thought, it makes to chew on for a while - like on a good tasting and juicy fruit.

[Gina Stevenson]

The view of gradual sanctification is not supported by scripture Gina, nor does it accord with our experience. Are you more filled with love for Christ now, and more obedient than the day you first met with Him? Many mistake theological knowledge for sanctification.
First, welcome to NazNet; don't know if I did that before.

Now, as to our subject of sanctification, while there can be an instantaneous entry into this life, there's also growth once in it ... we read growth throughout Scripture ... perhaps it's a matter of differing semantics that you don't call this second stage "gradual sanctification."

Secondly, if you were instantaneously complete ... never sinning again ... completely whole in an instant [while it seems it is our intent/will that can turn, it's not our entire person, which still needs to learn this submission little by little] ... then you've got the apostle Paul beat ... look at what he tells us in Romans 7 ... took him a good while to get to Romans 8, it appears, in the latter part of chapter 7! {LATER: hope this didn't sound sarcastic; got to thinking that without facial expression/tone as IRL, it might not sound so nice. didn't mean to be sarcastic, if it did sound like that. ;)}

BTW, when I heard someone this last week for a few days who made a lot of sense ... had supporting x-rays indicating brain pathway changes over time (of the same brain) ... indicating that it takes about a full three years for some pathways to be completely revamped (Phil 4:8, II Cor 10:3-5), through "tearing down" of old ways, practicing/learning new ways, that seems to align with the time Jesus took ministering to/with His disciples ... long enough for them to be "revamped" through and through from their old way(s) of thinking to His way. Very interesting "stuff," since our spirit does have to live in/contend with this flesh and blood body until we're "outa here!" ;)


blessings as you keep seeking more of Him and His ways ... thoughts,

[Brenda Jackson]

Hi Carsten

Thanks for the links with Greek alphabet, but I use Linux and am still finding my way around it, but I will ask someone how I can type in Greek.

First
we shall try to get the Lords righteousness,
second
he puts on us what is needed.

Our interest should be holiness - not our sickness.

--- "I believe" (must not be read as law, OK?)
I believe, sanctification meets spirit, body and soul. We might see that or not.
We can not split. "mind sickness is a thing, happening in head, sanctification is a thing, happening in heart".
Readiung the bible, we see, all kind of sicknesses have been healed by the Lord, also mind sickness.
Once someone knees in front of Altar (or praying at home or in bed of hospital, in common with others or lonely), also his sick body is blessed, not only his spirit and soul because forgiveness - no matter, his body is seen as healed or as not healed. To come nearer the face of the Lord, makes us not only stronger in mind, it helps also our weak body up. Maybe we do not note that. I believe it is so.
--- end "I believe"

You speak the truth, 'Seek ye first the kingdom of God and the rest shall be added unto you'. Once we do have the righteousness of God, the effects of our sinfulness on our mind brain and body will start to be reversed. On the physical level, it will act according to the laws of nature, and the neural pathways and cells of the body will start to repair as the stress to the system caused through worrying and not forgiving, and all negative thought is removed, and the natural healing mechanism of the body is triggered.Maybe the Lord will grant a miracle too, but that is up to Him as we have placed ourselves entirely in His hands and acceptance-with-joy will be our state, whether we live or die, are sick or well, rich or poor, the only thing that matters is to be united in resurrection life with Him. The mind does not need to act in accordance with physical laws, although its action will be hampered by brain malfunction, yet even so, it is proven that new pathways are created when there is damage. The mind is part of the soul and when the new heart is given, it is restored to its full health. I experienced this and believe that all people who have been entirely sanctified will witness to the same. However, somtimes we think that we have been entirely sanctified, and it is not yet although there has been a dramatic change to us. It is advisable to read of the experience of others in the past to see whether our day to day walk after it is the same and that we are living the same life as the apostles and therefore in the same spirit as they. Unfortunately there is much deception these days of apostacy (and of course there always has been) and over this doctrine there is the most deception and wrong thinking. We can also ask God, is there something more? Am I pleasing to you? Am I living in victory over the world, sin and self like the apostles? Is my conscience clear of offense? Is there an issue between you and me and that has not been dealt with? When I know your command do I do it immediately without a moments pause, in every single thing?

Today, the Pentecostal and charismatic understanding of Baptism in the Spirit has confused the real thing. It leads many astray. True holiness means that everthing that comes out of the heart is pure.

[Brenda Jackson]

Hello Gina

Yes there is always growth, we never reach the point where there is nothing more to learn. But the righteousness of God is not given to us in dribs and drabs. It is given to us in an instant, and as the scripture says, there cannot be polluted water and clean coming out of the same pipe or foul words and holy words out of the same mouth. We are to walk as He walked in this life, putting on the mind of Christ and holy as He is holy. If there is sin, say for example, if we have any unforgiveness towards anyone at all, so that we cannot love them as Christ loves us, and pray for their blessing, then we are not forgiven or in the kingdom, and as it says on the sermon on the mount, lust of have an angry thought, then as Wesley shows, that is the person we are. A person who tells a lie is a liar. A person who is angry is a murderer.

Little children, let no man decieve you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous. He that commiteth sin is of the devil 1John 3:7-8.

There is no need to 'wait' when it comes to obedience. The power of God is there for us so we do not need 'training' to be obedient.

Paul is describing his experience in Romans 7 of entire sanctification (at the end of the chapter)and the process that leads up to it, very much shortened if we are not obstructing God's dealings with us (the disciples took up to three years, but they had to wait for the Spirit to come at Pentecost, the time could not be shortened) However, now that the Spirit is come, there is no need to wait. We enter in by faith as Paul told the Galatians. They were believing that it was gradual so therefore through their own efforts but Paul said no, it is by faith. Faith in the finished work of Christ. It is not Christ who delays us, and the time is short, we do not know when our lives will be required of us. It is we who delay the work through unbelief and through loving our sin more then we love the Saviour who hates it .

Paul does not say how long the time was from conviction by the Holy Spirit and deliverence. We would be very foolish to look for ways to continue to sin. Christ says today is the day of your salvation and if we delay we harden our hearts and quench the Holy Spirit. What is causing that resistance? It will bring us death if we listen to it. Be ye holy as I am holy is the command, not try to be holy as I try to be holy. Or leave it to another day to be holy. The devils mantra is wait. There is no sense of waiting in the scriptures, it is very urgent.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Hi Carsten

Thanks for the links with Greek alphabet, but I use Linux and am still finding my way around it, but I will ask someone how I can type in Greek.As a worldly theme we will no more think to - it does disturb, seen on the main theme Sanctification, just a small note - I think, for all systems is the best to use UTF - signs. I do not own a bible in greek because in the past I have not known how to handle the problem - modern / ancient greek letters. In Hewbrew I got it and decided to take the easier to read modern letters without vowels (and I have found a free computer scripture "hebrew.ttf"). For the greek bible are the ancient letters a must - I have read. On a pretty day I get for greek a better solution. On WikiPedia is written alot about UTF - signs, it is a very good guide. My solution I pointed to, is just a quick, cheap solution, for serious bible studies not to use.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Today, the Pentecostal and charismatic understanding of Baptism in the Spirit has confused the real thing. It leads many astray.I know. In this town is a large "bible seminary", its correct name sounds, "Christ For The Nations, Canada, German Branch". It is associated with the Church of God and its office seat is a town named Wolfenbüttel (there is a library, owns a Luther bible, printed by Gutenberg) near Braunschweig, Lower Saxony. What they do teach about, "How to get the Holy Spirit and how to work with" is a blasphemia. (They do not know it in another way, so I do not say, they do lie - a lie must be done by will to be a lie, in all other cases it is a mistake or an error and makes the difference between guilty and innocent. Rome does lie by will - since centuries - so I say, Rome does lie.)
Fact is,
they do pray to get the Holy Spirit - and indeed, there is a spirit answering. But this spirit is not the Holy Spirit, it is the spirit of darkness. It overcomes the praying people and will strike them down on floor. Then it is laughing in face of the king of kings, "See - in front of your Altar I got them! See my victims down here!"
They do ignore,
the Holy Spirit was shed out over the joung and the first community on Pentecoste, a few weeks after Golgotha. For me this is a riddle - why they do ignore - worldwide, this holy charismatic society, owner of the better moral. It is clear enaugh and simple, understandable told.

But this is not our theme.
Our theme is sanctification, not the wrong ways of the charismatic movement.

[Carsten Schermuly]

There is a hidden mystery. The natural sciences found out, what effects spoken and / or written words will have - on anything inside a circle, they could have been heard or been read.

To say over someone (or over a glass of water or any other thing) a positive word, "be blessed" or "I love you" or "you are looking wonderful" etc, will have good influence on the molecular structure of living things or on the structure of growing minerals (e. g. drying salt solutions). It is proofed by alot of tests.

Bad words will have destructive effects.

This will be in unity to the word to love enemies.
My sickness is my enemy. I shall not hate like I shall not hate a person. I shall take it like it is - and I will find peace about. If not - I am allowed to pray for.

Holiness - in relation to sickness is a similar thing.
As long I look up to Jesus Christ I become more and more healed.
On doubts I can find out that - like fasten, to meditate about the love of the Lord, how much I have to thank for and praying for one, two, three weeks or longer - once I am able to do that - and ask then again my doctors for a precise opinion - we can bet, it will be better then as before this intensive spiritual time.

We do not see so many things - this will make us often helpless. But the love of the lord is around us day and night. He has only thoughts of peace and love - about us - and look above, please - this has good effects on our bodies physically health - not only on our soal, spirit and mind - on our mentally health.

[Thomas Weyandt]

People with OCD have been found to have different looking brain sections and different looking brain cells as results of brain autopsy as of 1997. Recommend Tormenting Thoughts and Secret Rituals as book to read on OCD and physical pnenomina.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Dear Thomas, I will read about. I do not like that - but you told me to do that so I will do it. Maybe I learn to understand a bit more.


Why we have no sight for our help? Why we can not look over the hill? The hill is our burden - my hill is ADD and Narcissism.

What I think, could be the reason - we own too much. We are bound too tighten to our own imagination what a happy life could mean - consuming as consuments consume articles and entertainment.
We live in a time, all thinkable and unthinkable things are possible. Klick just two, three times and look in your own chimney via satellite (Google Earth). Make a journey through galaxies via Hubble telescope. All knowledge is public - see WikiPedia and other public databases. It seems, we can take part on all things, found ever under the sun. There are giant libraries open to read - like the National Library or the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Our local environment and our modern democracies make more possible. We do not need to ask, "Give us our daily bread" because in case we are hungry and can not satisfy our belly, we fill a form of a public social organisation - and done.
We are driven away from the Lord because our modern (and for many people in the western hemisphere easy) times. To turn off from our car -, supermarket - and restaurant culture is nearby impossible.

The romans must see a circus to have fun - we must just switch on TV and we have some hundreds channels around the clock.

I have read some small stories about the early missionaries, came from Scotland to continental Europe. I could be wrong, it could have been in fifth century, around hundred years after Emperor Konstantin with the vision of the cross, made christianity to an official religion.

This early missionaries followed in all details the example of the Lord as long he walked on this earth. They did own nothing and every day they must look where to sleep - regularily under sky, not under a roof.
This holy men had nothing - only the power of prayers. They have awaked dead people to life. In southeast of France near Switzerland is a place where that should have happened several times - documented.

We do own too much.
We have no sight for the Lords power he will give in our hands because our eyes do see always the many things around us - and the hills of personally difficulties.

Once Brenda wrote,
quote:
God promises in 11 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and of a sound mind
end quote

and

quote:
From what I know of mental illness, there is no self control at times or in severe cases, a lot of the time. Coming from a very strong background of mental illness ie schizophrenia I have had a lot of experience of relations who have not got a sound mind, and who do not belong to Christ.
However, when entirely sanctified, any tendencies within myself of being unstable were totally eradicated.
end quote

in the same moment I must think to what is written on my life,
Philippians 4, v. 13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


I have read too much about psychology. That drove me away - to trust in the Lord. That does not mean, he will do what I want - but it means, I am allowed to hope for - to await all things, especially what is looking as impossible for me.
I believe he does heal me totally. I believe that. I have seen the miracles, the Lord has done on others. Why he should not do on me?
He is souverreign - not to do what I await. But in all cases he heals, maybe like Paul he has a reason not to take off all things - but like Paul I await things, looking as impossible in my eyes and in eyes of others. Maybe it will not happen fasten - over a longer time - but I await to be healed. I know that, I trust in. It will comfort you and will give you new powers once you will await this also. Do not give up to hope.

[Brenda Jackson]

I readily accept that there are changes in the brain cells, as Thomas says, in those who are mentally ill. I do not find that a difficulty. Any of the organs becomes disfunctional if they are abused by unhealthy food or toxic substances including alcohol and drug abuse. Pesticides cause changes in our DNA (I am a victim of this myself). The immune system shows permanent changes for some retaining things in its 'memory'. Negative thought patterns especially anger, are very toxic for our delicate brains and will cause these changes I believe.

It would be very interesting if someone who is entirely sanctified could have a post -mortem on their brain.

Carsten has brought up an important point I believe. It is our modern Western society that is the cause of the enormity of the mental health problems we see. We do not know why, it could be a mixture of things including the toxins I have mentioned, or it could be due to the undue stress of living so unaturally causing the excessive negative thoughts. This seems to be against what Carsten says about having too much. Yes it is easier to not have to depend on God for everything, but at the same time, by not trusting in God, we encourage a spirit of fear.

The verse that I have quoted, and which has been an encouragment to Carsten, thank God for that, as it has for myself, has been disputed because there is disagreement over the use of the word 'sound'.

But if we look at the begining of the verse, it says For God hath not given us a spirit of fear. A spirit of fear is the opposite of trusting God, and I do believe that fear is a great cause of mental illnes. I have known many problems myself in this area in the past. Because of my childhood, I was not able to grow up trusting any adults. Therefore when it came to trusting God, I found that a problem. I think that fear is very endemic in our societies and increasing so that I would think that mental illness rates will increase.Certainly some conditions are like ADHD and autism are and I think that I have read somewhere that schizophrena is also.

However, if we go to undeveloped societies, although mental illhealth is still to be found, I am sure that the rates, as well as those for all degenerative conditions including cancer, are much lower. If this problem has nothing to do with the environment and is endogenous, then we would see the same rates everywhere we go. This is not the case. Even in societies that have to struggle for existence or rather did so in the past. I am not qualified to speak in this area with authority, but I have read plenty in the past including studies to come to this conclusion. So I am only offering my own opinion without any scientific backup, though it is so interesting a subject that I intent to research it further.

If God expects us to be walking as Christ did, and perfect in love and obedience, then He must also give us the means of doing so if we are willing to give up all for Him, and this means the mind must be put right from its malfunction caused by pathways in the brain being disorderd. What a wonderful God we have! Mental health at last!

[Carsten Schermuly]

Once we will use a perfect language, we first had to study our mothertongue and Philosophy and Jura and Theology and other sciences - before we could form a single phrase.
We read our textes by good will - then we can live with mistaken terms like "sound" in peace. It is not sooo important because your will is not to give theology a new direction or to propagate a wrong theology.

It is not bad to read about sicknesses to know from what is talked. On the other side - it makes us unfree. Once I learned, I have ADD, people around me wondered why I had not tried to become an ADD - specialist. In a ADD - Forum was collected all the newest knowledge about ADD and the discuss was very rich on all levels. I did not like. My desire is to alive ADD - not to make a culture from it. Once I tried to get all that science wisdom - I were much more unfree. Reading a book about ADD takes me the time I could use much, much better.

Reading about ADD - lets circle my phantasy around my problem - I am caught.

Reading about the miracles of the Lord leads me out of that circle I am caught in.

That makes the difference.


However, if we go to undeveloped societies, although mental illhealth is still to be found, I am sure that the rates, as well as those for all degenerative conditions including cancer, are much lower. If this problem has nothing to do with the environment and is endogenous, then we would see the same rates everywhere we go. This is not the case. Even in societies that have to struggle for existence or rather did so in the past. I am not qualified to speak in this area with authority, but I have read plenty in the past including studies to come to this conclusion. So I am only offering my own opinion without any scientific backup, though it is so interesting a subject that I intent to research it further.
We should look more and more over the fence, "How do others live?". "Why people in some asian countries do not have an overweight problem and not heart and circulation problems?" "Why in Africa testine cancer is nearby not known?" Testine cancer is a typical problem of Europe and North America. Also for spiritual reasons I like much the idea of the W&W Team work. It builds a global chain of friendships, brings the idea to be a family nearer, its blessings are so manyfold - in both directions - for the members of the target communities and for the volunteers.
To see poor countries teaches to think