Disorganized small group fellowship

[Marsha Lynn]

I was told yesterday that the ideal size for a "small group" is between five and fifteen. I don't know the official reasoning behind five as a minimum, although I can imagine. The reason for fifteen as a max is that beyond that a leader emerges and the dynamics of the group changes. Fifteen is as large as a group can function without that level of leadership.

The timing of that news was interesting. I am part of a small group. Actually, I am the "teacher" of this group. However, particularly for social activities, we have a bit of a leadership vacuum. Okay, we have a gaping hole in the leadership area.

After our Wednesday evening Bible study last week, one of the group said, "We're thinking about going to the putt-putt place Saturday night. Do you want to go?" I didn't even ask who "we" were, whether it was "me and my family" or "several of the group members." Either way, I was good with it, particularly if I didn't have to organize it. The word was that we would meet there (25 miles away) at 7:30. "Invite anyone you want."

Friday afternoon, we discovered that the arrangements had shifted to meeting at the church at 5:30 and going out to eat first.

Saturday evening, ten people, ages 17 to 60, showed up at the church in six vehicles. We spent five minutes discussing our carpool arrangements. Should we all pile into the church bus or take two vehicles? Which two? Should the person who lives on the way have to come all the way back to the church later? Yes, he would do that. Two vehicles prevailed.

We spent another five minutes deciding where to eat. Pizza Hut got the nod and we headed out together.

At the restaurant, we spent considerable time deciding how many pizzas to order with what toppings and what type of crust. Then we settled in to enjoy the meal together.

At the miniature golf course, two more people joined us, the parents of one of the young adults, longtime friends and neighbors who blended well with the group. (Yea!)

We walked through the door and stood in a cluster chatting with our new group members du jour. Eventually a few of us headed to the counter to initiate the process of getting onto the course. The high school kid behind the counter asked me, "Is this a church group?" I wasn't expecting the question. I looked behind me at the multi-generational group and hesitated. It wasn't an official church activity from the church calendar. The two who had just joined us have never been inside our church doors. Were we a church group? Was it a church activity? Who chose this activity anyway and what was their intent?

My hesitation was too long. When I turned back and affirmed, "Yes, we're a church group," the young man was reluctant to believe me. We discussed it at length. I told him that ten of us would be in Sunday School together the next morning. (That wasn't quite accurate. Two were from the teen class.) I offered to quote scripture. :rolleyes: However, he made the decision that he wasn't giving us the "church group discount."

One of the group recognized the kid and knows his father, who apparently is the manager of the place, a former pastor, and a master at banter. She announced that she was going to call his father and walked off with her cell phone to do so. By that time, we were all handing over our money. I asked how much the discount was -- 50 cents per player. After a while, he relented and offered to refund the 50 cents. But it seemed simpler to just pay full price and get on with it.

I asked, "So what would we have to do different for you to believe that we're a church group?"

He said, "You should be more organized. And have a spokesman."

:laughing:laughing:laughing:laughing

Arghh!!! We're too disorganized to pass as a church group! And he hadn't even been around to experience the ongoing delights of group decisions!

We managed to organize ourselves into three foursomes with little trouble. I guess we were motivated to be more organized. As we finished up the eighteenth hole, the kid came out and let us know that he was grounded for three months because of our complaint to his father. Or maybe it was a week. He seemed to be a little uncertain of his punishment. :p

I think it took us 15 minutes afterward to decide to stop for ice cream and choose a place for that. We still don't have the organization thing down. But we sure did have a lot of fun. It was well worth the 50 cents each to have that much fun trying to convince a 17-year-old that we were an organized church group. I had begun to regard our leadership vacuum as one of those "strength in weakness" areas, in that, in the absence of leadership, every person's voice is heard. Apparently, it doesn't work out quite that way at the putt-putt course.

:basic05

[Jon Bemis]

It sounds like you have the same kind of organization of a lot of church groups I have seen. :) Seriously though, you ought to send your post to the kid's dad so that he's off the hook.

[Marsha Lynn]

Seriously though, you ought to send your post to the kid's dad so that he's off the hook.

Seriously? There weren't many serious words that evening. I confess that I might have believed the story about being grounded, but the person who actually knew the kid and his father and made the phone call didn't believe it. I didn't hear what she said on the phone, but I doubt there was much serious about that exchange either.

Sunday morning, one of the group was late for Sunday School. He pointed out that the lesson never starts on time anyway. I told him that we're supposed to have fellowship time before we start the lesson. He said that we had fellowship the night before and didn't need any more. I think he was reaching in his logic in order to justify sleeping in, but then again, he does have a point. A group that has that much fun on Saturday night and adds no one new on Sunday morning doesn't exactly need an "icebreaker" activity. From now on, we're diving right into the lesson on the deep end. No more sleeping in!

:laughing

[Susan Unger]

Seriously? There weren't many serious words that evening. I confess that I might have believed the story about being grounded, but the person who actually knew the kid and his father and made the phone call didn't believe it. I didn't hear what she said on the phone, but I doubt there was much serious about that exchange either.

Sunday morning, one of the group was late for Sunday School. He pointed out that the lesson never starts on time anyway. I told him that we're supposed to have fellowship time before we start the lesson. He said that we had fellowship the night before and didn't need any more. I think he was reaching in his logic in order to justify sleeping in, but then again, he does have a point. A group that has that much fun on Saturday night and adds no one new on Sunday morning doesn't exactly need an "icebreaker" activity. From now on, we're diving right into the lesson on the deep end. No more sleeping in!

:laughing

My usual [not the current one that I co-teach] ss class last 90 min long...60 min of that is termed "pre-ramble". That is the official term. One time when I was new, I arrived to class a few min late. I sat there for 30 min staring at the ss book searching in vain for where they were in the book. Finally, I just stuck my hand up and asked "where are we?" The teacher said "Oh, we're in the Pre-Ramble now. " This explained why it took them 3 weeks to go through one lesson :rolleyes: That was several teachers ago...now we only take a week to get through the lesson...but we still love our pre-ramble.

[Marsha Lynn]

My usual [not the current one that I co-teach] ss class last 90 min long...60 min of that is termed "pre-ramble". That is the official term. One time when I was new, I arrived to class a few min late. I sat there for 30 min staring at the ss book searching in vain for where they were in the book. Finally, I just stuck my hand up and asked "where are we?" The teacher said "Oh, we're in the Pre-Ramble now. " This explained why it took them 3 weeks to go through one lesson :rolleyes: That was several teachers ago...now we only take a week to get through the lesson...but we still love our pre-ramble.

Susan, I told my group this morning about your schedule and said that I would ask how your church motivates people to show up an hour before the lesson starts. I'm fighting hard to start SS at the advertised time of 9:30, but it's a little difficult when I'm sitting in the room by myself with my PDA music playing. (It's not that I mind my own company but I don't generally talk out loud to myself in public buildings. :o )

This morning, there was one other person in the room at 9:30 with two more known to be in the building. Another four arrived shortly thereafter. We may have been up to full count in the room by 9:35. That's better than average, but still late.

On the other hand, after greeting various people following the morning service, I looked around for the group and discovered a cluster of young people still in the sanctuary, having yet to vacate the pew where they had spent the past hour. It's not that they don't enjoy informal fellowship. I just don't know how to get them started a few minutes earlier in the morning.

What's your secret?

[Jon Twitchell]

Susan, I told my group this morning about your schedule and said that I would ask how your church motivates people to show up an hour before the lesson starts. I'm fighting hard to start SS at the advertised time of 9:30, but it's a little difficult when I'm sitting in the room by myself with my PDA music playing. (It's not that I mind my own company but I don't generally talk out loud to myself in public buildings. :o )

This morning, there was one other person in the room at 9:30 with two more known to be in the building. Another four arrived shortly thereafter. We may have been up to full count in the room by 9:35. That's better than average, but still late.

On the other hand, after greeting various people following the morning service, I looked around for the group and discovered a cluster of young people still in the sanctuary, having yet to vacate the pew where they had spent the past hour. It's not that they don't enjoy informal fellowship. I just don't know how to get them started a few minutes earlier in the morning.

What's your secret?

The last person arrives gets to be the teacher?

[Susan Unger]

Susan, I told my group this morning about your schedule and said that I would ask how your church motivates people to show up an hour before the lesson starts. I'm fighting hard to start SS at the advertised time of 9:30, but it's a little difficult when I'm sitting in the room by myself with my PDA music playing. (It's not that I mind my own company but I don't generally talk out loud to myself in public buildings. :o )

This morning, there was one other person in the room at 9:30 with two more known to be in the building. Another four arrived shortly thereafter. We may have been up to full count in the room by 9:35. That's better than average, but still late.

On the other hand, after greeting various people following the morning service, I looked around for the group and discovered a cluster of young people still in the sanctuary, having yet to vacate the pew where they had spent the past hour. It's not that they don't enjoy informal fellowship. I just don't know how to get them started a few minutes earlier in the morning.

What's your secret?

Well, there are two answers - schedule and love. We have two services with ss classes meeting during the services [vs two services with one ss time sandwiched between them]. So, my class has church first then goes to the ss room. The class meets for 90 minutes. The teachers tried to have a 90 min class time but there was too much fellowshipping going on...so the unwritten rule became we socialize in the room for 60 min and then be nice for 30 min when the 2 teachers try to teach.

But even without this schedule, we still would do this I believe. Our monthly primetimers dinner is not part of the sunday am schedule to force folks to come...they just come cuz they love each other.

Ex. Even before I moved here, they made sure I knew I was loved and missed. I would visit my parents' once a month and attend their ss class with them. Everyone would be so excited to see me. Then in the three weeks between visits I knew each sunday that I would have an email from one of them letting me know I was missed. Meanwhile, my own church never called, emailed or wrote me unless they needed something. So when I moved here, it was a no brainer which class I would become a part of - my parents' ss class. One sunday when I had a migraine and couldn't make it, my parents told me that they were all very worried about me. I can't begin to tell you how that boosted my morale.

Another example - I may miss church but it kills me to miss ss cuz I enjoy the love there too much.

This is why in the "my preacher's better than yours" thread I said great preaching will get them in but love of the congregation [or SS class] will keep them there.

[Marsha Lynn]

Thanks, Susan. Like I said, people struggle to make it to SS on time but then aren't ready to leave after the service because they're enjoying the fellowship. Love may keep them coming and prompt them to hang around, but it doesn't necessarily translate into timely arrival for 9:30 SS. :basic03

I have been suggesting we experiment with swapping SS and worship for quite a while now (stemming from a previous NazNet thread) without success. That would definitely help. There would be more incentive to make it on time for a service that is going to begin whether they are there or not. With SS, it takes at least a couple of people present before anything significant can happen, and taking attendance is the first order of business, which means the lesson needs to start a little later. There's no obvious incentive to be on time. However, changing the schedule is likely to require extended time slowly chipping away at the resistance. We're still dealing with no small amount of PTSD from the last attempted schedule change. Almost four years later, faces blanch, knees knock, and lips compulsively form the word "no" at the mere hint that we try again.

Meanwhile, Jon's light-hearted proposal of penalizing the last person to arrive has some merit, although I'm having a flashback to The Story of Ping about the little duck who simply didn't get on the boat at all one evening because the last duck on got a swat on the back and he was going to be last. I don't want to discourage people from coming in late on the mornings they don't manage to make it on time.

Until I can sell church leadership on the schedule change idea, I'll just have to keep searching for the incentive that is attractive enough to get young adults on their feet and out the door just a few minutes earlier on sleepy Sunday mornings without discouraging the attendance of those who wake up too late to be early. Food doesn't do it. Music doesn't do it. Games haven't worked. The anticipation of fellowship doesn't do it. (They can always fellowship later, even after the church doors are locked and they have been ushered out onto the sidewalk.)

It seems that the day's schedule needs to begin with a definite start time that is worth crawling out of bed for. But the attendance people want our attendance first and it's difficult for anything significant to happen while the attendance is being tabulated. Maybe we can cut off attendance taking at 9:30 and ask everyone who doesn't make the initial count to mark their own attendance and update the total count before coming in. That way we could actually begin SS at 9:30. Like this morning's parable (the wise and foolish virgins), maybe we can shut the door and those who arrive late will have to beg for entrance. :eek: (But is the wedding banquet worth it in this case?)

Anyway, I appreciate your response and am glad you have found a place of warm fellowship and encouragement. Christian fellowship truly is an amazing thing, isn't it? Even when it's disorganized. :basic03 (A visiting evangelist last week congratulated us on not being like other churches where people don't see each other between Sundays. I think we were supposed to realize that we are indeed like those other churches and repent. However, instead, we came to revival services on Sunday thru Wednesday and then planned another one of our disorganized quasi-church-group outings for Friday evening -- 19 people ages 3 to 59 for dinner and bowling.)

:fav16

Marsha

Well, there are two answers - schedule and love. We have two services with ss classes meeting during the services [vs two services with one ss time sandwiched between them]. So, my class has church first then goes to the ss room. The class meets for 90 minutes. The teachers tried to have a 90 min class time but there was too much fellowshipping going on...so the unwritten rule became we socialize in the room for 60 min and then be nice for 30 min when the 2 teachers try to teach.

But even without this schedule, we still would do this I believe. Our monthly primetimers dinner is not part of the sunday am schedule to force folks to come...they just come cuz they love each other.

Ex. Even before I moved here, they made sure I knew I was loved and missed. I would visit my parents' once a month and attend their ss class with them. Everyone would be so excited to see me. Then in the three weeks between visits I knew each sunday that I would have an email from one of them letting me know I was missed. Meanwhile, my own church never called, emailed or wrote me unless they needed something. So when I moved here, it was a no brainer which class I would become a part of - my parents' ss class. One sunday when I had a migraine and couldn't make it, my parents told me that they were all very worried about me. I can't begin to tell you how that boosted my morale.

Another example - I may miss church but it kills me to miss ss cuz I enjoy the love there too much.

This is why in the "my preacher's better than yours" thread I said great preaching will get them in but love of the congregation [or SS class] will keep them there.

[Billy Cox]

Until I can sell church leadership on the schedule change idea, I'll just have to keep searching for the incentive that is attractive enough to get young adults on their feet and out the door just a few minutes earlier on sleepy Sunday mornings without discouraging the attendance of those who wake up too late to be early. Food doesn't do it. Music doesn't do it. Games haven't worked. The anticipation of fellowship doesn't do it. (They can always fellowship later, even after the church doors are locked and they have been ushered out onto the sidewalk.)


Brainstorm other activities for which adults make a point to be on time. Ask yourself why adults make a point to be there on time. Is there any insight you can gain? You already alluded to what I think is the answer. (maybe we could be draconian or manipulative about punctuality, but would it really be worth it?)

An example... I used to play golf alot and one of the first things you learn is to be early for tee times. Being late is bad form, and if the golf course people are grumpy, busy, or just legalistic, then you lose your tee time, plus you annoy the people (usually friends) you were going to be golfing with. They might even tee off without you, leaving you out in the cold.

[Susan Unger]

It seems that the day's schedule needs to begin with a definite start time that is worth crawling out of bed for. But the attendance people want our attendance first and it's difficult for anything significant to happen while the attendance is being tabulated. Maybe we can cut off attendance taking at 9:30 and ask everyone who doesn't make the initial count to mark their own attendance and update the total count before coming in. That way we could actually begin SS at 9:30. Like this morning's parable (the wise and foolish virgins), maybe we can shut the door and those who arrive late will have to beg for entrance. :eek: (But is the wedding banquet worth it in this case?)



Part of it may be that my class is full of older adults who love waking up early [except for me]. Young adults tend to want to sleep in.

And yes, following the parable is always an option. Although, I wouldn't suggest locking them out ;)

[Jon Twitchell]

Meanwhile, Jon's light-hearted proposal of penalizing the last person to arrive has some merit, although I'm having a flashback to The Story of Ping about the little duck who simply didn't get on the boat at all one evening because the last duck on got a swat on the back and he was going to be last. I don't want to discourage people from coming in late on the mornings they don't manage to make it on time.


Leave it to the librarian...

:D

[Marsha Lynn]

Brainstorm other activities for which adults make a point to be on time. Ask yourself why adults make a point to be there on time. Is there any insight you can gain? You already alluded to what I think is the answer. (maybe we could be draconian or manipulative about punctuality, but would it really be worth it?)

Well, my answer is that people are on time when they'll miss something if they are late. Is that the answer that you have in mind and to which you think I alluded? But what happens at the beginning of the SS hour that no one wants to miss? Offering and attendance?

I have no interest in applying guilt or manipulating people. In fact, those people are part of the conversation. (I talk to them much more than about them. :basic03) My concern is that we advertise a start time and any visitors who come don't know better than to show up at that time. The visitors look at me and all the empty chairs and are impressed by my optimism but concerned that they have stumbled on an extremely small "small group." Ten or fifteen minutes later, all the chairs are full. When the last few stragglers come in, we have to stop what we're doing to scrounge for more chairs because we weren't expecting the entire group to show up along with visitors.

I don't want people to feel guilty about being late. I'm actually thrilled that anyone comes at all, no matter how late. (After all, we're talking about young adults in a traditional Church of the Nazarene.) But I have been the visitor in a church where even the teachers showed up 1/4 to 1/2 hour after the advertised start time for SS and it's an awkward situation. That's why I'm looking for incentive for being on time rather than punitive measures for being late.

An example... I used to play golf alot and one of the first things you learn is to be early for tee times. Being late is bad form, and if the golf course people are grumpy, busy, or just legalistic, then you lose your tee time, plus you annoy the people (usually friends) you were going to be golfing with. They might even tee off without you, leaving you out in the cold.

I may need some help applying that example to SS. That's why I was looking for ideas from people who have found the secret to starting an adult SS class on time.

[Ron Pruitt]

Well, my answer is that people are on time when they'll miss something if they are late. Is that the answer that you have in mind and to which you think I alluded? But what happens at the beginning of the SS hour that no one wants to miss? Offering and attendance?

Well sis, maybe you could become a mime. Entertain until the start time and then start the class, when the people get there and ask about the white face you can just tell them they missed the pre-class. Similar to waiting times for shows to start at theme parks. :p

Or become a great story teller like Garrison Keillor. Pastor Andy Dayton is great at that in Shipshewana. He doesn't do it anymore, but for awhile after he first came there he would start five minutes early on Sunday evenings telling tales of "life at the parsonage" and be done by church time. People came early just to enjoy the humor of him telling the events of his week. You've already got the story-telling humorous way of expressing yourself as seen in your posts here on Naznet. Perhaps you could incorporate that.

Just some (not-so-serious) suggestions from your older brother.:fav04

Ron

[Billy Cox]

I may need some help applying that example to SS. That's why I was looking for ideas from people who have found the secret to starting an adult SS class on time.

What I thought were alluding to is that there are time-proven ways to get people to show up on time, but they are not consistent with the objectives of Sunday School or church in general.

I haven't taught or attended an adult Sunday School class in years, and even when I did it was not the first thing in the morning for the students, there were topical electives (not segregation by age), and he had a mini-worship time all together before splitting off into classes. People could stroll in late and still be right on time for the class of their choice.

I don't think there is any magic bullet, but I suggest that you reconsider the meaning of 'start'. Is the goal of the class to successfully deliver all of the talking points for the lesson, or is it to have a semi-directed spiritual conversation?

Does your class have a time to share prayer requests? Is it done at the beginning or the end? I have observed that this time opens the door to community-building and spiritual conversation. If you do it at the end, there is a good chance it gets time-squeezed, and so people aren't done when the time runs out. If you do it at the beginning, prayer and sharing might crowd out the instructional time, but what have you really lost?

Just some thoughts...

[Marsha Lynn]

Well sis, maybe you could become a mime. Entertain until the start time and then start the class, when the people get there and ask about the white face you can just tell them they missed the pre-class. Similar to waiting times for shows to start at theme parks. :p

Well, they're already missing the part where I dance to the music before anyone shows up, but I'm not sure I want that part to become public knowledge. (Sometimes I just have to get the dancing out before putting on my Nancy Nazarene face on Sunday mornings.) Which would perhaps suggest that I not post it on a public forum, but who really reads this stuff anyway, right?

Or become a great story teller like Garrison Keillor. Pastor Andy Dayton is great at that in Shipshewana. He doesn't do it anymore, but for awhile after he first came there he would start five minutes early on Sunday evenings telling tales of "life at the parsonage" and be done by church time. People came early just to enjoy the humor of him telling the events of his week. You've already got the story-telling humorous way of expressing yourself as seen in your posts here on Naznet. Perhaps you could incorporate that.

Just some (not-so-serious) suggestions from your older brother.:fav04

Ron

Ah, yes. The old suggestion that the way to be successful as a Sunday School teacher is to be dynamic in one's presentation. A workshop leader shared that tip a few years ago. I told a class member who was also at the workshop that I would immediately start being dynamic. However, by the time Sunday morning arrived, I had to admit to her that I had perhaps underestimated the time and effort required to achieve such a goal and there might be a delay in incorporating that element into my teaching style. It's still someplace on my to-do list -- "become dynamic."

I wonder how dynamic one has to be to inspire young adults to not only make the effort to come to 9:30 Sunday School, but to actually arrive on time. That might take more dynamics (is there a noun form of dynamic?) than someone from their mother's peer group can hope to achieve. Not even the dancing is going to make it, I fear.

But thanks for the tips!

:basic05

[Marsha Lynn]

What I thought were alluding to is that there are time-proven ways to get people to show up on time, but they are not consistent with the objectives of Sunday School or church in general.

Aha. Thanks for explaining. I didn't catch that. I guess then you would share my continued amazement that young adults come at all to a Sunday morning event as old-fashioned as traditional Sunday School.

I don't think there is any magic bullet, but I suggest that you reconsider the meaning of 'start'. Is the goal of the class to successfully deliver all of the talking points for the lesson, or is it to have a semi-directed spiritual conversation?

Aw, Billy. Have you been talking to my group? I missed a Sunday evening church discussion around the time I started this thread. I think I detected glee when a couple of people reported to me later that our pastor had made the point that evening that the lesson is not the main point of SS and getting through the lesson should be seen as less important than allowing discussion to happen. This, from people who often respond to my best questions with silence until five minutes before the buzzer when they finally start talking about the last point of the lesson. I tried not finishing the lesson the next week just for the principle of the thing. The only difference I could detect was an uncomfortable sense of unfinished business in my own psyche. I don't know that anyone else even realized that we didn't finish. I went back to my old ways. If "dynamic" means covering only two out of three points in 30 minutes, I think it's a hopeless goal for me. I often divert from my outline, but never get so derailed in the middle that I leave the best part unaddressed simply because it's at the end of my notes and we run out of time. If it weren't for the curriculum police, I would love to use a format where we pick up the most intriguing question from one week and make it the core of the next week's lesson, but I decided long ago to pay the price of being an official Church of the Nazarene Sunday School group, and using approved curriculum is part of that price. So this week's unfinished discussions can only continue in other times and places regardless of whether we finish the lesson or not. I want to at least allow them opportunity to discuss all of the main points of the morning's lesson.

Does your class have a time to share prayer requests? Is it done at the beginning or the end? I have observed that this time opens the door to community-building and spiritual conversation. If you do it at the end, there is a good chance it gets time-squeezed, and so people aren't done when the time runs out. If you do it at the beginning, prayer and sharing might crowd out the instructional time, but what have you really lost?

Hmm... I think my answer is "none of the above." Or maybe "all of the above." I have tried multiple approaches to prayer, but Sunday morning while sitting in our circle of chairs ends up not being where we find out what's going on in each other's lives. I mentioned in an earlier post the latecomer who noted that he was on time for the lesson and that we didn't need fellowship time because everyone there had spent several hours together the night before (being disorganized miniature golfers). We do indeed keep up pretty well on each other, but that level of "community-building" doesn't happen at 9:30 on Sunday morning. It happens better between turns at the bowling alley or across the table or on the golf course or hiking through the woods or swimming at the lake or sitting on bleachers at the high school or sitting around a campfire or riding a ski lift or standing in a huddle at the town fair or riding bicycles around town or standing in the church foyer (or on the sidewalk after the doors are locked). What Sunday School gives us is the structure to focus on Scripture and explore spiritual matters together for a few minutes. And that's primarily what we use it for. And, amazingly enough, people come -- consistently. Just not on time.

Just some thoughts...

Thanks for them. Maybe I'll try not finishing the lesson again and see if people start coming earlier. :p (Just kidding. I do understand the premise behind subjugating the lesson to more important matters.)

So, out of curiosity, what would it take to entice you to become part of an adult Sunday School class?

Marsha

[Ron Pruitt]

(Sometimes I just have to get the dancing out before putting on my Nancy Nazarene face on Sunday mornings.) Which would perhaps suggest that I not post it on a public forum, but who really reads this stuff anyway, right?

Right. I'll be sure not to quote it, so I don't add to the public opportunities for someone to see that I'm not the only one who does rain dances trying to get SS students to church early, in order to beat the rain.

I told a class member who was also at the workshop that I would immediately start being dynamic.

Is that how you got to be such an interesting writer? All you need do is write your opening monologue to Naznet and read it with all the inflections and nuances we're missing when we enjoy the read. Believe me. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks you definitely are dynamic.

It's still someplace on my to-do list -- "become dynamic."

Hmmm. Now, where did I put that to-do list? That looks like a good item to add to mine.

Well, until the next time I can add some constuctive two cents worth, back to the silent mode.

Ron

[Susan Unger]

And, amazingly enough, people come -- consistently. Just not on time.

Maybe just pray for them?

I told my class [which meets first service] I would be one of their teachers as long as they committed to praying for me not to have my usual morning migraine. They have and so far I have not missed a class since August [alternating months I teach].

[Mike Schutz]

Marsha,
I know we've had this conversation before, so I am not sure if you are interested in any further elucidation on my part.

As someone who has written curriculum in the past, and currently writes the Sunday school curriculum (if you can call it that) for several of our church's adult Sunday school classes, I am always concerned that folks using such materials will see it as a lockstep approach. As I know you know, curriculum is meant to be a resource and a guide.

When I am training our teachers, I ask them, "What is the purpose of Sunday school?" At the beginning of training, they almost always say "knowledge." Yet by the end they understand that it is about practical application within the context of a faith community. Because our classes follow our worship service, the classes are a time for processing, discussion, and application. These classes are purposely small - typically no more than 15 - in order to aid in conversation. There is no lengthy curriculum, as the participants have just sat through a 75 minute worship service with a 25 minute sermon. After 10 minutes of "how was your week?" the teacher asks, "So, what do you think about what Mike just said?" That usually is enough to kick it off, but they also have 5-7 questions to help in going deeper. Most of the time, the teachers only use one or two of the questions.

Of course, the teachers know their classes. Some Sundays, the community life needs are such that those take center stage. Other times, the sermons are pretty controversial and I get pulled into the conversation via email - either for questions or for clarification, or for folks to vent.

As we have often read on Naznet, the appropriate sequence is
BELONG - - - BELIEVE - - - BEHAVE. We practice this quite explicitly. The "belonging" component of our groups is such that folks are very comfortable inviting friends to participate, even before they know much of anything about Christ or our church. In fact, invitation to participate in a group, along with our children's ministry programs, are the primary points of entry for new folks into our church.

Not all of our classes buy into this model. For example our "traditional" adult class of senior adults continues to use the teacher-as-expert/lecture model. We disagree because, in my opinion, more Bible information is not going to help these folks grow deeper. Yet that is the focus of the teachers of that class.

I am of the opinion that changing the culture of a group is so hard that it is sometimes easier to simply play "upset the apple cart." We started several new topical groups that allowed folks the opportunity to change into new groups, with new group cultures.

[Gene Tatsch]

... The old suggestion that the way to be successful as a Sunday School teacher is to be dynamic in one's presentation....
This reeks of a better marketing approach to a perceived problem :rolleyes:
Yes, I know you care much. Maybe its not your "problem" at all?
All I know is that when I want/need to know something, I make sure to know when & where it is, work to be there when it starts, and am focused on whatever is being offered - even when I think I've "been there before".
Hmmm ... as someone has said: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink ... but you can salt his feed". Maybe the real challenge is that your folks become hungry & thirsty.
Which only God can do - so we've circled back to prayer.

Operationally, I really like Mike's approach - linking discussion to proclamation.
It has a strange flavor of having continuity in what's going on :rolleyes:

[Jon Twitchell]

Marsha...

Let me come back to my suggestion about the latest person being the teacher. While this was totally a joke... I wonder if there might be some idea hidden in there that would work.

What if, for one quarter, you arranged to have some of your students rotate the teaching of the class? You would remain the host (playing music, bringing snacks, whatever)... but they would facilitate the discussion.

This gives you a chance to disciple new teachers, it causes the group to be less "teacher-centric," and it provides a way for your class members to have an alternate perspective...e.g., your perspective.

Just an idea....

[Marsha Lynn]

Marsha,
I know we've had this conversation before, so I am not sure if you are interested in any further elucidation on my part.

Mike, I appreciate your input. I think I would enjoy being part of your program.

This reeks of a better marketing approach to a perceived problem :rolleyes:
Yes, I know you care much. Maybe its not your "problem" at all?

Nope, not my problem at all. Rather, I consider it an interesting and fun challenge to find a way to entice young adults to show up at 9:30 on Sunday morning. I'll keep teasing at this knot until I either manage to untangle it or something else comes up that's more important.

Let me come back to my suggestion about the latest person being the teacher. While this was totally a joke... I wonder if there might be some idea hidden in there that would work.

What if, for one quarter, you arranged to have some of your students rotate the teaching of the class? You would remain the host (playing music, bringing snacks, whatever)... but they would facilitate the discussion.

This gives you a chance to disciple new teachers, it causes the group to be less "teacher-centric," and it provides a way for your class members to have an alternate perspective...e.g., your perspective.

Just an idea....

And a good idea it is. When I was going to Olivet homecoming a few weeks ago, I personally asked each group member (while camping together) if he or she would fill in during my absence so that the class would not have to be absorbed in with another group. Every one of them said no. (Actually, the one I didn't ask directly said he would teach if he were more literate and didn't have a speech impediment that makes him sometimes almost impossible to understand. I may need to consider how that could be possible.)

In the four years we have been a class, I have failed to raise up even a substitute from within the group, let alone someone who will fill the role of "teacher" with me there. When I'm gone, they either don't bother to show up until 10:30 for worship or are content to join the class next door for that Sunday. (Unlike many pastors I know, I can't handle not telling them when I'm going to be gone. They always know.)

So there's another challenge: not only do I need a way to entice people to show up on time, but also talk someone into being the "teacher" for a week. I'll have to consider my target for that effort.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Marsha

[Susan Unger]

Mike, I appreciate your input. I think I would enjoy being part of your program.



Nope, not my problem at all. Rather, I consider it an interesting and fun challenge to find a way to entice young adults to show up at 9:30 on Sunday morning. I'll keep teasing at this knot until I either manage to untangle it or something else comes up that's more important.



And a good idea it is. When I was going to Olivet homecoming a few weeks ago, I personally asked each group member (while camping together) if he or she would fill in during my absence so that the class would not have to be absorbed in with another group. Every one of them said no. (Actually, the one I didn't ask directly said he would teach if he were more literate and didn't have a speech impediment that makes him sometimes almost impossible to understand. I may need to consider how that could be possible.)

In the four years we have been a class, I have failed to raise up even a substitute from within the group, let alone someone who will fill the role of "teacher" with me there. When I'm gone, they either don't bother to show up until 10:30 for worship or are content to join the class next door for that Sunday. (Unlike many pastors I know, I can't handle not telling them when I'm going to be gone. They always know.)

So there's another challenge: not only do I need a way to entice people to show up on time, but also talk someone into being the "teacher" for a week. I'll have to consider my target for that effort.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Marsha

On the bright side, at least you have a group of young adults that DO come.

[Marsha Lynn]

Until I can sell church leadership on the schedule change idea, I'll just have to keep searching for the incentive that is attractive enough to get young adults on their feet and out the door just a few minutes earlier on sleepy Sunday mornings without discouraging the attendance of those who wake up too late to be early. Food doesn't do it. Music doesn't do it. Games haven't worked. The anticipation of fellowship doesn't do it. (They can always fellowship later, even after the church doors are locked and they have been ushered out onto the sidewalk.)

Well, I put some feelers out this week and figured out that changing the schedule is not going to happen. So I'm back to the challenge of making the beginning of SS worth getting up for.

Here's my latest strategy -- YouTube. I need a short YouTube clip every week. As soon as there are three people in the room (four with me), I play the YouTube video. Everyone who comes in later misses it.

This morning I played the "Will It Blend?" (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?p=239730#poststop) clip that Mike linked to in another thread. I need more. Something related to the parable of the figs would be nice for next week, but fitting the good, clean fun model is probably more important than having a connection with the lesson.

They liked the blender clip, by the way.

:basic01

Marsha

[Jon Twitchell]

Marsha... there's a podcast out there that's "the best of youtube." I set iTunes up to subscribe to the podcast, and then I get a (usually) great and (usually) family friendly video every couple of days, without having to go search for them. They're not officially associated with youtube, but they're already formatted for your iPod, so if you can get a video dock to connect to your tv then you are (as the taco bell guys say) "good to go."