Under Attack from Within?

[Pete Vecchi]

First and foremost, let me unequivocally say that this is NOT about me. Yes, I am a pastor, and yes, this general type of situation has affected me and my ministry, but I just heard about this from another congregation recently, and from other congregations generally.

I believe that a number of churches are under spiritual attack from within. I mean this: The pastor is supposed to be, both Biblically and according to the Manual, the local leader of the local congregation.

Yet it seems as though too often, there is resentment among the people when a Pastor tries to lead. Recently, I have heard about different churches that have members grumbling (and again, this is NOT about me) over such petty things as...

...a pastor rearranged the platform (or had it rearranged) in the sanctuary without first consulting the church board;

...a pastor dared to say from the pulpit something that was interpreted (I don't know the words the pastor used since I wasn't there--I only know that they were interpreted this way by someone) as the congregation wasn't friendly;

...a pastor spoke in what was interpreted (again, I don't know the words the pastor used since I wasn't there--I only know that they were interpreted this way by someone) to be too graphic of details for the youth who were there when talking about sexual issues (and the complaint did NOT come from a youth);

...a pastor used a visual illustration in the sermon that seemed to at least someone disrespectful of the sanctuary;

...a pastor instituted having small groups meet throughout the church building on Sunday evenings instead of having a traditional service for everyone in the sanctuary;

...a pastor allowed the youth to start leading the morning worship music and allowed them to use more modern music styles and instrumentation than the congregation had been doing previously.

Those are things I've heard recently about other congregations.

I'm going to be blunt. All of that stuff is petty. I believe there's an underlying issue going on here: a root of bitterness has taken hold, and that type of root tends to take root deeply and to spread easily--even from one person to another.

All too often then, the person who takes the brunt of the pettiness that results from the root of bitterness springing up ends up being the pastor of a congregation. As Jesus said in Mark 14, "...[S]trike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered."

There is a spiritual attack occurring in too many congregations. People might not like something a pastor does, and instead of telling the pastor, they tell someone else. Or if they do say something to the pastor, perhaps the pastor doesn't believe he/she should change what he/she believes God is calling him/her to do in leading the congregation the way God is leading him/her simply because some of people don't like some of the methods.

So the people get upset and threaten to leave. Some do leave. And the pastor agonizes within his/her shepherd's heart over these people, making his/her job as the pastor that much more difficult, and sometimes even causing discouragement within the pastor's heart.

Folks, is this glorifying God? Is this the way Jesus wants things to be in His Church?

We need to realize that churches are under spiritual attack, because the "forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12, NIV) do not like the church. They want to destroy the church. That's because these forces are against God, and God has chosen the church to be His primary instrument in using the Holy Spirit to bring people to the Father through Jesus Christ.

The enemy is crafty. The enemy can sneak in and plant seeds that grow into roots of bitterness. And when this happens, we shouldn't blame the people who have been implanted with those seeds of bitterness any more than we should blame someone who gets sick after contracting a virus. The person certainly didn't INTEND to contract a virus. Often, viruses are spread from person to person without the people even realizing that the virus is spreading.

I believe that often, the seed to the root of bitterness is planted in a person without him/her even realizing it (similar to how the enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat in the parable Jesus told in Matthew 13). But then that seed takes root, begins to grow, and then that person can unknowingly or unwittingly spread that root to others.

Is the root of bitterness affecting you?

If so, it is time to pray that the Lord will remove that root, but not just leave a void where the root was. Ask that He replace that void with His Holy Spirit.

We need to resist these spiritual attacks in order to have healthy churches, so that healthy churches can go and do the Kingdom work God designed them to do.

[Dave McClung]

First and foremost, let me unequivocally say that this is NOT about me. Yes, I am a pastor, and yes, this general type of situation has affected me and my ministry, but I just heard about this from another congregation recently, and from other congregations generally.

I believe that a number of churches are under spiritual attack from within. I mean this: The pastor is supposed to be, both Biblically and according to the Manual, the local leader of the local congregation.

Yet it seems as though too often, there is resentment among the people when a Pastor tries to lead. Recently, I have heard about different churches that have members grumbling (and again, this is NOT about me) over such petty things as...

...a pastor rearranged the platform (or had it rearranged) in the sanctuary without first consulting the church board;

...a pastor dared to say from the pulpit something that was interpreted (I don't know the words the pastor heard since I wasn't there--I only know that they were interpreted this way by someone) as the congregation wasn't friendly;

...a pastor spoke in what was interpreted (again, I don't know the words the pastor heard since I wasn't there--I only know that they were interpreted this way by someone) to be too graphic of details for the youth who were there when talking about sexual issues (and the complaint did NOT come from a youth);

...a pastor used a visual illustration in the sermon that seemed to at least someone disrespectful of the sanctuary;

...a pastor instituted having small groups meet throughout the church building on Sunday evenings instead of having a traditional service for everyone in the sanctuary;

...a pastor allowed the youth to start leading the morning worship music and allowed them to use more modern music styles and instrumentation than the congregation had been doing previously.

Those are things I've heard recently about other congregations.

I'm going to be blunt. All of that stuff is petty. I believe there's an underlying issue going on here: a root of bitterness has taken hold, and that type of root tends to take root deeply and to spread easily--even from one person to another.

All too often then, the person who takes the brunt of the pettiness that results from the root of bitterness springing up ends up being the pastor of a congregation. As Jesus said in Mark 14, "...[S]trike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered."

There is a spiritual attack occurring in too many congregations. People might not like something a pastor does, and instead of telling the pastor, they tell someone else. Or if they do say something to the pastor, perhaps the pastor doesn't believe he/she should change what he/she believes God is calling him/her to do in leading the congregation the way God is leading him/her simply because some of people don't like some of the methods.

So the people get upset and threaten to leave. Some do leave. And the pastor agonizes within his/her shepherd's heart over these people, making his/her job as the pastor that much more difficult, and sometimes even causing discouragement within the pastor's heart.

Folks, is this glorifying God? Is this the way Jesus wants things to be in His Church?

We need to realize that churches are under spiritual attack, because the "forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12, NIV) do not like the church. They want to destroy the church. That's because these forces are against God, and God has chosen the church to be His primary instrument in using the Holy Spirit to bring people to the Father through Jesus Christ.

The enemy is crafty. The enemy can sneak in and plant seeds that grow into roots of bitterness. And when this happens, we shouldn't blame the people who have been implanted with those seeds of bitterness any more than we should blame someone who gets sick after contracting a virus. The person certainly didn't INTEND to contract a virus. Often, viruses are spread from person to person without the people even realizing that the virus is spreading.

I believe that often, the seed to the root of bitterness is planted in a person without him/her even realizing it (similar to how the enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat in the parable Jesus told in Matthew 13). But then that seed takes root, begins to grow, and then that person can unknowingly or unwittingly spread that root to others.

Is the root of bitterness affecting you?

If so, it is time to pray that the Lord will remove that root, but not just leave a void where the root was. Ask that He replace that void with His Holy Spirit.

We need to resist these spiritual attacks in order to have healthy churches, so that healthy churches can go and do the Kingdom work God designed them to do.

Pete, it is interesting that you would post this, about pastors getting in trouble when they try to lead. Most of the complaints I hear from Nazarene laymen is that their pastor won't lead. Poor pastors -- they get in trouble if they try to lead and get in trouble if they don't try to lead.

If I were a pastor, I would figure that I was going to be criticized either way, so I would try to lead.

[Ken Pell]

Well there isn't much new in what I'm gonna say but I am gonna side with the congregations in this post.

I know there are congregations that are onry and difficult ... been there done that ... but it still does not mean they are not worthy of being served. And if they are ever to be transformed it will only come from Jesus-style ministry. Also, I suspect most every pastor has felt his charge was difficult and onry at times.

It seems to me that leading a congregation requires more than just the "authority" of a calling, an ordination, and the district's sanction.

Being the leader does not mean you are always right or have the best ideas either. But some pastor's seem to think that when they are challenged, corrected, or disagreed with they have been "attacked". truth is ... that might be evidence of the Spirit's presence within the body.

Some things we call "leading" (like making platform changes) may or may not be leading. It might be preference, or even seomething else. If that is the only kind of leading a pastor is doing then she has missed the boat. That does not even qualify as authentic change or spiritual transformation.

Real leading comes from:
1. Serving ... really serving
2. Developed and proven trust (trustworthiness) ... way too many congregations have reason not to trust the pastor to be there to serve and lead them.
3. Time
4. Respect for the laity -- parishioners have great ideas, great passion, and great insight. Use it.
5. Love

Also, I have a hard time referring to the congregation as the source of attack. They are not the enemy.

[Billy Cox]

Yet it seems as though too often, there is resentment among the people when a Pastor tries to lead. Recently, I have heard about different churches that have members grumbling (and again, this is NOT about me) over such petty things as...


A leader with no followers is taking a walk. Just because the pastor's name is on the church's stationery does not make him the leader. A gifted leader tries to bring people along rather than ruling by decree.

Pastors should look at the bright side and see grumbling as a sign that people care; and care can potentially be channeled into ministry. The alternative to grumbling that every pastor should dread is apathetic silence. You can't channel that into anything.

[Barbara Moulton]

I've been in ministry a long time. I've had a traumatic experiences with a congregation, growing pains with a congregation and some wonderful experiences with congregations. Two things I think we need to do.

1. If you are a member of the congregation, assume the best, not the worst about the pastor . If you are a pastor, assume the best, not the worst about the congregation.

2. Try to avoid the "us" and "them" mentality.

I wish I had done this consistently down through the years of ministry. I haven't. But with maturity, I have come to realize that the local Church is not about the pastor and its not about the congregation. It's about Jesus working through them together.

One way to do this is to pause and look at the other side.

Some of the things you mention seem small. Interepreting a pastor's words wrongly and become offended for example. I don't think there is any way we can avoid offending people on occasion with something we say from the platform. On any given Sunday my husband has to preach to people from the age of 7-87. Somewhere along the line someone is going to misunderstand. The onus is on the congregant yes, to go to the pastor, not talk about it behind the pastor's back. The onus is then on the pastor not to become defensive but to ask for wisdom to see the true heart of the matter that is being brought to them.

For the other "small things", I would like to suggest that this goes both ways. It's easy to say, "It's such a small thing. Why they are being so petty?"

But if decisions are that small, why not take it to the board first? Is rearranging the platform something that couldn't be discussed with some people, to give them a sense of ownership? When we decided to have tables and chairs in the sanctuary we went through a long process of consultation and allowed the congregation to vote and ended up with a good compromise that has served us well for six years. We didn't just suddenly rearrange the sanctuary without notice.

But you know, reading your post, I have to say that I don't think that some of those things are petty concerns. Changing morning worship to small groups scattered around a building is a huge paradigm shift, only to be done after much consultation with the people.

Having youth lead worship one Sunday morning is not big. Turning morning worship over to the youth permanently is. I have visited churches where the youth led worship and while they might perform beautifully musically, I find that a worship leader needs more than simply musical ability. There is a value that comes from life experience that shapes a worship leader and their heart. Youth don't always know how to connect with a congregation in worship. They can learn this and that's why they need opportunities...but to simply hand it over to them? Again, that's something that the church needs to endorse.

You see what I am saying? Sometimes pastors need to be patient when it comes to their own "wants" in the church and try to view concerns not as petty challenges to their authority but as a way to help someone feel valued in a process. Pastors need to understand that changes that may seem small in their eyes, are not small in the eyes of the congregation.

And congregations need to decide to assume the best about the pastor's intentions, even when they disagree with decisions.

This past Christmas, I was faced with a huge paradigm shift when I realized that my older daughter could not be home with us on Christmas Day. It was hard to think about her not being home to open her stocking and be seated around the family Christmas tree. But if it was hard on me, it was even harder on my younger daughter, who had to cope with a huge change.

For me, it was just another change in how I celebrate Christmas (had happened many times before). But for her it was really the first big change ever.

So we began to talk about how we were going to do Christmas, months in advance and to focus on some of the postives about the change. We all made suggestions and compromises. And it turned out to be a pretty wonderful Christmas Day, with time spent with my husband, myself and my younger daughter at home and time spent at my daughter's place in an extended celebration that we all felt part of.

But imagine how this might have gone for my younger daughter, if we suddenly arrived at Christmas Eve and said, "Oh by the way...it's all different this year."

[Scott Sherwood]

I can't speak to the specific situation described above.

I have been in ministry for 18 years now and must admit that I have had the good fortune of being surrounded by some incredibly supportive, patient, sharp, spiritually-motivated people, so my experience may not count for much when it comes to being under attack.

Three observations:

1) Ministers are taught, mostly implicitly, from a young age to receive every criticism as a personal attack. We have been ill-served by this and need to learn to benefit from criticisms whether valid or not.

2) If a criticism is from someone who has earned no influence with me, the leadership, or the congregation, I would do well to receive it graciously and not give it a lot of energy or worry. It is not representative of the congregation, and I should not think of it as such.

3) Hard times in ministry either make me better or bitter (sorry for the cliche). My goal is to develop a thicker skin and a softer heart as I grow into the call of God on my life. Too often, I have observed in others and myself an increasingly thin skin and hard heart. I don't want to be thin skinned or hard hearted. I pray often that God will help me increasingly have a thick skin and a soft heart.

I have another 32 years to go before I start collecting those fat Nazarene pension checks, so I don't despair that He's still working on me. Plenty of time to get it right.

[Pete Vecchi]

I've read all of the responses to this point (I'll be more specific and say through Scott Sherwood's post, since it's possible someone may post something before I get this typed out and posted), and I'm starting to wonder if I have totally miscommunicated my intent.

The main intent of my post was the summation in the final few paragraphs--a call to prayer that the root of bitterness planted by the enemy does not take hold and that if it starts to take hold, a call to prayer to ask God to get rid of it and replace the void with His Holy Spirit.

But based on the responses, it seems as though I've instead communicated that there is more or less of an "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to pastors and laity.

Let me make something perfectly clear--as clear as I know how to make it in a forum such as this:

We are all in this together!

It's true that there are issues with pastors, and that there are wiser ways for pastors to lead than other ways. It's true that some pastors may demonstrate less leadership skills than other pastors. It's true that every single pastor can do his/her job better than he/she does it, because none of us is perfect, and there's always going to be room for improvement in this world.

But it's also true that pastors can end up being convenient targets. I was talking to another pastor recently who told me that it ended up that one of the laypeople who said he/she wasn't being fed by the sermons the pastor was preaching had a rather significant relationship issue going on in the home that the pastor didn't know about until later. Another pastor told about someone who said he/she wasn't being fed by the sermons, but it ended up that this person later admitted to having quit praying for a while due to a difficult time within his/her family. The one pastor said to me (and this is from a pastor who has been in the pastoral ministry considerably longer than I have), that pastors can tend to get the blame for things over which they have no control.

I must also say that pastors aren't immune from having the root of bitterness planted within them. I've had to deal with it at times in my life and in my ministry. But the point is that God has to remove that root and replace it with His Holy Spirit.

As long as we live on this earth, there are going to be disagreements over how to do things. Pastors are called to lead congregations, and unless everyone in a congregation has the same life histoty, same personality, same tastes, and same preferences as the pastor, there will be times when the pastor will lead in ways that some people will not like. More likely than not, some pastors will be seen as not leading, while other pastors will be seen as dictatorial (and about everything somewhere in between those two extremes). In any event, we must realize that in the organizational structure God has designed for His Church (of which Christ Jesus is the Head), pastors are called to be the leaders of the local congregations. Thatdoesn't make pastors any better than laypeople in their standing before God, it just means that they have a leadership role in the organizational structure of God's church.

Here's something I've said in the past that I believe still applies. If something a pastor says or does makes a person uncomfortable, that person should ask him/herself the following question: Is what the pastor said or did clearly unbiblical? If so, then the pastor should be approached about the issue and shown the error of his/her ways, and the pastor should then repent of what he/she said or did. However, if what the pastor said or did is not clearly unbiblical, then the person who is feeling uncomfortable should pray and see if he/she is feeling uncomfortable because God is trying to stretch him/her in his/her faith.

Again, nobody in this world is perfect. Pastors aren't perfect. Laypeople aren't perfect. But pastors and lay people are all part of God's church, and we're all in this together; we're all on the same team.

And as part of this team, we should strive to keep the local churches healthy. Part of the way of keeping churches healthy is to make sure that no root of bitterness springs up within us, and that if it does, we should ask God to remove it and replace it with His Holy Spirit.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I think most "petty" problems between pastors and people can be avoided with a little bit of communication. If the pastor has the idea of rearranging the platform he or she ought to mention it to the church board. After all, there is no mandate in the Manual granting the pastor authority over what goes where on the platform. Even more, redoing the Sunday night format from a service to small groups is a pretty big change. No "in the loop" layman should show up on a Sunday night for church and find out that the pastor has decided to change the format. Again, it isn't in the pastor's job description.

Elected lay leaders ought to be treated as though their opinion matters. Most people I have pastored, even if they didn't think it was a good idea to give the Sunday morning worship leadership over to the teens, would go along for for the ride, at least for a trial period if they are asked.

Most of the stuff I saw listed wasn't about spiritual attack as it was about lack of communication.

[Pete Vecchi]

Most of the stuff I saw listed wasn't about spiritual attack as it was about lack of communication.

Again, I wasn't there to see how things were presented. For instance, I don't know if the "in the loop" members or the board were consulted prior to making the Sunday evening format change. The bottom line I was getting at was not whether or not communication could have been improved. The point I was getting at is that too often people can get upset about issues that really are not spiritual in nature but rather prefrencial in nature, and then get bitter about things. It's when the bitterness sets in that the spiritual consequences begin to surface.

[Susan Unger]

I know when I arrived at my current church that I heard some complaints from those who were discontented [and were in the process of changing their membership]. I had to be careful not to let their words plant unhealthy seeds in me.

My former church loved to complain over petty things. Part of it was that they were very emotionally attached to the church and part were too emotionally attached to a deceased pastor who had been there for 28 years. Since then I have determined to never put a pastor up on a pedastal. It makes things much easier.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Pete,

I understand what you are saying. It is true that when Satan attacks a church he attacks from within...most of the time. That is true about me as in individual, also. Spiritual attack comes from within.

Actually, when spiritual attack comes from outside the church, the church pulls together to survive the attack.

It is Satan's goal to divide the church, put up barriers, cause hard feelings & grudges & bitterness. If he can get some to say, "I can't forgive," or "I will never get over this," or "I do not like having to worship with that person," he wins.

And, most of the time, Satan uses "petty" things to do his attacking and then causes it to fester until it is more of a major issue in some minds.

Pastors make mistakes. Laymen make mistakes. Communication is not always as it should be.

I see more of this now in all churches than when we began 40 years ago. Should that surprise me? NO! Satan knows he is running out of time.

I see Satan's attack on my son's generation as much stronger than when I was Stephen's age.

Barb

[David Verzyl]

Appreciate your concerns. I've been there. I'd have to say, however, that congregations aren't the problem, just select individuals from time to time. It is possible to paint with too broad a brush either way. Read "Clergy Killers" by G. Lloyd Rediger. It is true that there are people among us who do not have good intentions and who do not WANT to communicate to solve problems, they want to tear down and destroy. When you run into one of these, there can be constructive conflict resolution.

I am a pastor of 13+ years, and a second career pastor. I have had no problem leading and getting along with 95 percent of the people in my churches and communities. But there have been times: my current church was on a 25-year decline because of internal control issues when I arrived. One couple, and a couple of their followers, decided I was not their cup of tea my third week here, mostly because of my Wesleyan perspectives. They went on a slash and burn destruction campaign that included weekly letters to the DS (they even complained about the way I parked my car at the parsonage), and the DS actually enabled their bad behavior by holding secret meetings with them. Actually, they never confronted me face-to-face and the DS advised me not to confront them and asked me to protect the confidentiality of his meetings with them, effectively tying my hands.

It took two years to sort it all out. They left after the congregation rallied around me and voted THEM off the board. But in the mean time there was a lot of damage and families left and people were victimized and they took the lion's share of our income with them.

So while I agree that congregations aren't the enemy, I recommend that you do not forget: love the sheep but be aware that there can be wolves in the flock.

Dave

[Billy Cox]

I believe that often, the seed to the root of bitterness is planted in a person without him/her even realizing it (similar to how the enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat in the parable Jesus told in Matthew 13). But then that seed takes root, begins to grow, and then that person can unknowingly or unwittingly spread that root to others.

Is the root of bitterness affecting you?

If so, it is time to pray that the Lord will remove that root, but not just leave a void where the root was. Ask that He replace that void with His Holy Spirit.


I think that persistent communication problems can give rise to misunderstandings and that those misunderstandings can give rise to bitterness. If you are going to refer to the parable of the weeds, you should keep in mind it is not a good proof text for eradication - since the weeds are allowed to grow alongside the wheat until the day of judgment.

[Roland Hearn]

Pete,
I appreciate that the focus of your post is a call to prayer and the idea that we should see ourselves as in this thing together. I agree completely.

As one who has actually been in most of the experiences you describe, from the rearranging the furniture to someone leaving the church because I gave my testimony and she felt it was not right that her teenage daughter should hear about her pastor having real human struggles, I think I can speak to the issue. It isn't always an attack sometimes some of the stuff I did was just dumb and needed someone to challenge. Sometimes there were genuine spiritual issues that needed to be worked through and I realised that it was my lot to be the one that brought them to the head. One of the most important lessons I learned was that people that attend a church for any length of time start to develop a sense of identity for themselves from that church. When you change anything or do something that reflects negatively on that identity you are going to cop criticism, it isn't an attack it is human nature. What we are called to do is be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves, some of these issues just need to be thought through better. We only create an us against them atmosphere when we see ourselves (as the pastor) as being above, by right of leadership, the need to be sensitive to how people experience their church. I am in complete agreement with others that have suggested communication is the issue.

I'm sure there are times that we are dealing with spiritual attack and that does need prayer but there are a lot of pastors out there who are creating problems by just not thinking through the human sociological and psychological issues.

[Susan Coffee]

I am a new “NazNetter” and have been challenged by many of the posts on the board. I feel kind of like the new in-law at Christmas dinner trying to figure out how to enter into the conversation, but I will venture forth.

I appreciate the insights and call to prayer that this thread has initiated. Situations like these seem so prevalent and often either the parishioner(s) or the pastor leaves the church. Sometimes taking many with them and leaving scars in their wake.

My question is this: When there is conflict or disagreement, how does a pastor or parishioner know when it is better to leave a church rather than drag out the conflict? It seems that often when things are financially strong and the numbers are growing we think that God is telling us to stay, but when things get difficult, the numbers and finances are down we say it is time to pick up an leave—especially when the trend has been going on for years. What criteria we should use to guide our decisions?

[Susan Unger]

My question is this: When there is conflict or disagreement, how does a pastor or parishioner know when it is better to leave a church rather than drag out the conflict? It seems that often when things are financially strong and the numbers are growing we think that God is telling us to stay, but when things get difficult, the numbers and finances are down we say it is time to pick up an leave—especially when the trend has been going on for years. What criteria we should use to guide our decisions?

Welcome to naznet. I like your name, btw :smilies16

I stayed at my troubled childhood church cuz God told me to. I think it was to support the pastor. But beyond that...it is time to leave when just thought of going to church gives one a migraine. Said from personal experience. It has taken me 2.5 years of intensive praying for me to heal from their abuse. I am almost done :) Just have a few more issues I think for God to heal me of.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Sometimes a pastor leaving prevents division in the church.

Sometimes a pastor leaving causes division in a church.

Same thing is true for a layman.

It is easier for a layman to leave than the pastor. The pastor has to have somewhere to go.

The ideal is reconciliation, but that is not always possible.

It is easy to say, "I can't take any more of this," but a person has to find and know God's will for the church and the person. Maybe God needs people "to take more of this" to see it through to a resolution.

We desire to protect the unity of the church. And that is not always easy to accomplish.

Barb

[Pete Vecchi]

If you are going to refer to the parable of the weeds, you should keep in mind it is not a good proof text for eradication - since the weeds are allowed to grow alongside the wheat until the day of judgment.

Yes, I know that and I have struggled with that in using this passage as a "proof text." My intent is to use this text to show how the weeds can get there, but not necessarily how to deal with removing or eradicating them.

A better "proof text" for a solution to this problem is found in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:23-26, when the evil spirit that departs from the man is not replaced by anything. I've always interpreted those passages to mean that a void was left by the departure of the evil spirit, but that the void wasn't filled by the Holy Spirit, so the evil spirit was able to return and bring others with it.

[Grandma Carolyn]

Our Pastor is showing the video "Bait of Satan" by Rev. John Bevere. At first, I was skeptical about watching a video for our Sunday morning services, but, besides being scriptural, it is good psychology and it is helping me to understand better how to live in christian community within my church and work for Jesus.
gc

[Susan Unger]

Our Pastor is showing the video "Bait of Satan" by Rev. John Bevere. At first, I was skeptical about watching a video for our Sunday morning services, but, besides being scriptural, it is good psychology and it is helping me to understand better how to live in christian community within my church and work for Jesus.
gc

OH, YES! I've read that book. At first when a friend suggested it, I thought that is a bizarre title...almost too bizarre. But once reading it, I realized that he is right on..and how undertaught this concept of not giving in to offence is. He wrote another book like this that covers another undertaught part of christian living. Forget what it is, but it was something really needed.

At my old church, a retired minister connected to the church died. The nmi council put him on the memorial roll and were going to present the memorial to his wife at his funeral. Only problem, both of them were known for their meanness and easily offended nature. So the 6 of us adults sat there in the meeting trying to see who had the best excuses for getting out of doing the presentation. I had an excellent one - for the first time ever, I was so glad to be having chemo as the funeral fell on the week in which my white blood counts would be low which meant I couldn't be out in public. PTL!!!!!! Finally, a newbie said "well, I grew up with abuse so it won't phase me to be around another abusive person."

AFterwards, I commented to my pastor that something just seemed so weird about all that - how 6 adults were afraid of one pastor's wife. His comment was "that's why it is important to always maintain a forgiving nature". I have never forgotten that...and try to have that kind of nature myself.

[David Parker]

John Bevere spoke at our church earlier this year. I was pleasantly surprised. Very good. Have not read any of his books yet, but his teaching and ministry was powerful.