Praying for the dead

[Roy Richardson]

I know it's not really within our tradition, but in the back of my mind there is some at least oblique biblica reference to it. I had a request from a child to be anointed and pray for her deceased father, and I did so. I did it out of pastoral concern for her, since I did not know her dad and have no idea what his spiritual state was at the time of his death.

Is there any support for the idea of commending the souls of the departed on to Christ?

[Bob Hunter]

Roy,

I'm sorry but we cannot advise you on this matter. Naznetters are frequently accused of heresy and promoting Roman Catholic practices. We have whole web pages and blogs devoted to accusing us of false teaching. If we were to say you exercised the correct measure of pastoral care in this situation, we could be accused of praying someone out of purgatory.

I plea the 5th on this one!

[Benjamin Burch]

I know it's not really within our tradition, but in the back of my mind there is some at least oblique biblica reference to it. I had a request from a child to be anointed and pray for her deceased father, and I did so. I did it out of pastoral concern for her, since I did not know her dad and have no idea what his spiritual state was at the time of his death.

Is there any support for the idea of commending the souls of the departed on to Christ?

I would hope so. We believe that God is fundamentally merciful and loving. We trust in this daily for our own salvation. IF God will do as God will, then the worst we can do is to plea. God may reject our plea, but we may call upon God's mercy and love all the same.

[Roy Richardson]

I would hope so. We believe that God is fundamentally merciful and loving. We trust in this daily for our own salvation. IF God will do as God will, then the worst we can do is to plea. God may reject our plea, but we may call upon God's mercy and love all the same.

Thanks Ben. That was my thought as well. Despite our arrogance, we don't understand all that God does, especially when this life ends and the next begins. My heart aches for this child. I cannot imagine the pain she is feeling. I am 43 and still have both of my parents with me. To be a child and lose your father would be devastating.

[Roy Richardson]

Roy,

I'm sorry but we cannot advise you on this matter. Naznetters are frequently accused of heresy and promoting Roman Catholic practices. We have whole web pages and blogs devoted to accusing us of false teaching. If we were to say you exercised the correct measure of pastoral care in this situation, we could be accused of praying someone out of purgatory.

I plea the 5th on this one!

Unless the CN's have become big brother, the PM option still works

[Lorie Hatcliff]

I know it's not really within our tradition, but in the back of my mind there is some at least oblique biblica reference to it. I had a request from a child to be anointed and pray for her deceased father, and I did so. I did it out of pastoral concern for her, since I did not know her dad and have no idea what his spiritual state was at the time of his death.

Is there any support for the idea of commending the souls of the departed on to Christ?

I understand why you would pray for this out of pastoral concern for the child. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as I think it's similar to praying for a sick pet....or even wishfully thinking that a deceased pet is in Heaven. It is comforting to the child. But where is the Scriptural grounds for this actually being the case (praying for the deceased parent, I mean...not animals in Heaven). I don't think there's anything wrong with the plea. But do we have any reference in the Bible that tells us that there is hope for the already dead? I can't think of any.

[Hans Deventer]

Is there any support for the idea of commending the souls of the departed on to Christ?

Not that I would know of, I'm sorry. I respect your pastoral care and we are encouraged "in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." It seems there is little we cannot ask Him, but again, I would not know of any Biblical support for this idea. Nor logical, actually.

[Marsha Lynn]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the plea. But do we have any reference in the Bible that tells us that there is hope for the already dead? I can't think of any.

Perhaps this is the closest biblical reference?

Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? (1 Corinthians 15:29)
Paul doesn't promote the idea of baptism for the dead but neither does he reject it. He simply says there's no point in doing it if there is no resurrection. Perhaps praying for the dead is similar. It may not be "theologically correct" but it does reinforce, in a way that might be appropriate for a child, our message that death does not have the last word concerning someone's life.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Certainly the early church prayed for the dead: but what did they know? They didn't have the advantage of two thousand years of bickering and theologizing.

[Hans Deventer]

Perhaps this is the closest biblical reference?

Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? (1 Corinthians 15:29)
Paul doesn't promote the idea of baptism for the dead but neither does he reject it. He simply says there's no point in doing it if there is no resurrection. Perhaps praying for the dead is similar. It may not be "theologically correct" but it does reinforce, in a way that might be appropriate for a child, our message that death does not have the last word concerning someone's life.

Maybe I'm on the wrong track. I have understood it as someone getting baptised on behalf of one who had already passed away but had indicated a desire to be baptised. Kind of how we once prayed at a District Assembly for the son of one of our DAB members who was very ill at the time, but it was his dad who knelt at the altar and was surrounded by people. He represented his son there.

[Marsha Lynn]

Maybe I'm on the wrong track. I have understood it as someone getting baptised on behalf of one who had already passed away but had indicated a desire to be baptised. Kind of how we once prayed at a District Assembly for the son of one of our DAB members who was very ill at the time, but it was his dad who knelt at the altar and was surrounded by people. He represented his son there.

I have no idea why people in or known to the Corinthian church were baptized for the dead. The Bible does not say, Paul doesn't express an opinion concerning it, and it's irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. I suspect that having a postmortem baptism had no effect on the final outcome of the deceased. Any value was for the living.

The point I think Paul was making and I echoed is that anything done for the dead is a testimony to our belief that death does not mark the end of living. If that's the entire message received by the child in this situation, it's a good one.

[Roy Richardson]

Certainly the early church prayed for the dead: but what did they know? They didn't have the advantage of two thousand years of bickering and theologizing.

We need a cringe button.

[Roy Richardson]

The point Paul was making and I echoed is that anything done for the dead is a testimony to our belief that death does not mark the end of living. If that's the entire message received by the child in this situation, it's a good one.

I'm hoping that is the message she received. I commended her father's soul to Jesus and asked him to take care of him. I'll leave the rest to God.

[Marsha Lynn]

I'm hoping that is the message she received. I commended her father's soul to Jesus and asked him to take care of him. I'll leave the rest to God.

You know, as I read these words it occurs to me that when put into practical terms our theology puts God in a box in this area (as with many others). The objection to such a prayer would be that it's too late. The father had his chance in life to make peace with God and is now forever stuck with the final choice he made before stepping across the line of death. There's no use praying to God for him now because he's beyond the point where God has the option of showing mercy to him. God is powerless at this point to modify his final destiny.

I have no particular interest in departing from orthodoxy in this area, but it is interesting that orthodoxy so often places limitations on the grace and mercy of a gracious and merciful God.

[Roy Richardson]

You know, as I read these words it occurs to me that when put into practical terms our theology puts God in a box in this area (as with many others). The objection to such a prayer would be that it's too late. The father had his chance in life to make peace with God and is now forever stuck with the final choice he made before stepping across the line of death. There's no use praying to God for him now because he's beyond the point where God has the option of showing mercy to him. God is powerless at this point to modify his final destiny.

I have no particular interest in departing from orthodoxy in this area, but it is interesting that orthodoxy so often places limitations on the grace and mercy of a gracious and merciful God.

It is awfully arrogant of us to limit God. We don't know what goes on when this life ends- we can't even agree on when the resurrection might take place or whether we go on to Jesus immediately or at the end of time - so I'm willing to offer up a prayer that may be rejected out of love and concern for someone who is struggling to get her head around this great loss.

This will probably get me on the CN list, but she is worth it.

[Marsha Lynn]

This will probably get me on the CN list, but she is worth it.

Roy, I absolutely love this line. There may be no theological principle worth fighting about, but accepting conflict as the price of loving people well is something I can embrace with all my heart. I think we have a wonderful example in this area in Jesus.

Thank you.

Marsha

[Hans Deventer]

I have no idea why people in or known to the Corinthian church were baptized for the dead. The Bible does not say, Paul doesn't express an opinion concerning it, and it's irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. I suspect that having a postmortem baptism had no effect on the final outcome of the deceased. Any value was for the living.

I am very sorry. My apologies.

[Marsha Lynn]

I am very sorry. My apologies.

Thanks, Hans, although I'm not sure why you're apologizing. Sorry if my response came across as critical of your words. My intent was clarification, not criticism. I genuinely have no idea why people were baptized for the dead and can't work up enough interest to consult a commentary.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I know it's not really within our tradition, but in the back of my mind there is some at least oblique biblica reference to it. I had a request from a child to be anointed and pray for her deceased father, and I did so. I did it out of pastoral concern for her, since I did not know her dad and have no idea what his spiritual state was at the time of his death.

Is there any support for the idea of commending the souls of the departed on to Christ?

I don't think this verse from Luke 20 directly applies to praying for the dead, but.... "38Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.’ " in context Jesus is speaking of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses, but I would think that it applies to all believers. So IF to God the person prayed for is not dead but alive then i would think that praying for him was appropriate. But....

[Bill Morrison]

Somewhat similar to praying for the dead IMHO would be the practice of baptizing for the dead. Not only is this seen in the LDS, but there is a church located near Olathe which I believe is part of a denomination called New Apostolic Church. As I understand it, they have baptism for dead people for this reason: they believe that in between the first apostles of the church and when one of their founders came on the scene in Europe several hundred years ago, that all baptisms were ineffective since the church had departed from truth. Therefore any who lived in that time period (most of history since Christ) need to be baptized by proxy now to ensure their salvation. I don't know if I got all the details right (surely some wiser Naznetter can correct me where needed). But the general outline of this story tells me that even beyond the I Corinthian passage, much of what they are doing is a cultural thing and is based more on their founder's interpretation of church history than it is on Biblical instruction.

BILL

[Dale Cozby]

"Prayer for the dead is one of the greatest acts of charity we can perform. Our prayers help them during their time in Purgatory, so that they can enter more quickly into the fullness of heaven. These prayers are especially suited for offering a novena on behalf of the dead, or for praying during those seasons of the year (November, in the Western Church; Lent, in the Eastern Church) designated by the Church as times of fervent prayer for the faithful departed....

...No rational difficulty can be urged against the Catholic doctrine of prayers for the dead; on the contrary, as we have seen, the rational presumption in its favour is strong enough to induce belief in it on the part of many whose rule of faith does to allow them to prove with entire certainty that it is a doctrine of Divine revelation. Old-time Protestant objections, based on certain texts of the Old Testament and on the parable of Dives and Lazarus in the New, are admitted by modern commentators to be either irrelevant or devoid of force." - from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Therefore:
1.) Believe that death is not the final point before judgment, you have purgatory as a layover stop to take a bath and clean up your soul before judgment(don't pay any attention to Hebrews 9:27)
2) Feel free to "live like the devil", but keep the sacraments and get prayed out of purgatory by people who love you or at least "will pray for pay".
3.) Don't forget to pay your "alms" to the very holy priest who will then pray for your loved one to hasten out of purgatory and on into heaven.
4.) Stop being one of those Protestant reformer types and fall in line.

I will thank God for the dead and the lives they lived to show us the way. I will praise God for the cloud of witnesses. I will ask God to comfort those who mourn. I will offer hope to the living of the resurrection that one day we may see our departed loved one again. I will not ask God to save a dead person or to speed them along out of purgatory. Too late for that. I will seek to correct error as gently as possible in a time of loss when asked for something I do not agree with, like prayers(of salvation/hastening through purgatory) for the dead.

[Roy Richardson]

Dale,

I must be missing something in your post. I'm not advocating praying people out of purgatory. I was completely at a loss as to what to do with a broken-hearted little girl who is grieving the loss of her dad. About all I can tell her is that he is in Jesus' arms and care right now. It's an area of my theology I know I need to develop, but I didn't feel like that was the time or place to tell people that their choices in life dictate their eternal destiny. Especially since I didn't know her father at all.

[Marsha Lynn]

I was completely at a loss as to what to do with a broken-hearted little girl who is grieving the loss of her dad. About all I can tell her is that he is in Jesus' arms and care right now. It's an area of my theology I know I need to develop, but I didn't feel like that was the time or place to tell people that their choices in life dictate their eternal destiny. Especially since I didn't know her father at all.

I think we have to do the best we can when cornered by people asking surprising questions for which there are no easy answers. It appears to me that love trumps doctrine in a pinch. Still, there's a certain satisfaction when we can get our doctrine to play well with love.

When running up against questions of destination for the deceased who may not ever have "made a decision for Christ," my personal theology says that only God can see to the heart of a living being and take all the mitigating circumstances into account and know how strong the fundamental desire to choose the right path was within that person and what hindrances thwarted that desire. I have no problem leaving the door open for God's grace to go deeper than we can ever hope or imagine. As one who depends on being judged with grace and mercy rather than some rigid measuring stick, I try hard to avoid hanging onto such a stick for my own judgments.

I don't have to believe in purgatory or a second chance to breathe out a "Lord, have mercy on his soul" when confronted with the news of death. I simply have to believe in a God of mercy and love.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Welcome to the world of pastoral diplomacy. Pastors, teachers, and others viewed as spiritual leaders are sometimes called on to minister in diplomatic ways. It's an imperfect world and people come into our lives from a wide variety of backgrounds. It sounds to me as though you did the best you could in the situation.

I've never had that particular request, but I've been asked to perform the role of spiritual leader in situations that required me to take a thoughtful, grace-filled approach.

I'll share a funny one that didn't happen to me, but I was there so I knew the entire story.

I had coffee on a regular basis with a group of clergy types. One of the churches had the college choir coming to sing on a Sunday night and one of the assistant pastors commented that they really didn't sing his kind of music. He preferred a southern gospel sound and the choir leaned toward classical. He commented to the pastor that he'd be there because he knew he was supposed to, but, really, he'd rather be elsewhere.

I attended the night of the concert. The robed choir of singers with bright shining faces was in place and the pastor began the service. With only the slightest smile he called on that same fellow to come to the microphone and pray God's blessing on the service.

And he did. Later, he remarked to our coffee group that it was one of the most diplomatic prayers he's ever prayed. Meanwhile, his pastor sat across from him laughing out loud.

(Details slightly changed to protect the innocent (or is it "the guilty"))

[Jim Chabot]

I know it's not really within our tradition, but in the back of my mind there is some at least oblique biblica reference to it. I had a request from a child to be anointed and pray for her deceased father, and I did so. I did it out of pastoral concern for her, since I did not know her dad and have no idea what his spiritual state was at the time of his death.

Is there any support for the idea of commending the souls of the departed on to Christ?

Somehow, I keep thinking of Hezekiah. His situation was less hopeful than this one, yet he obtained positive results. I'm thinking that there is no assurance given in scripture for this sort of thing, I've always thought of praying for the dead as the most lucrative Catholic fund raising schemes ever. While at the same time I must confess that I do this very same thing quite often. Whenever I attend a wake for someone for whom I must wonder where they were spiritually, and where they reside at present, I generally pray for them.

Something like "Lord I have no idea what kind of relationship this one has with you, I sure hope that one was there. But you know Lord, I remember lots of times when I saw love and consideration given by (insert name here). Lord, this was one of the good ones, I really hope that he or she will somehow find their way into your presence. I have no assurance of this, but if it helps, I thought he or she was ok."

I have no scriptural basis to pray that sort of prayer except when I think of Hezekiah. He had no assurance that God would spare his life, in fact he had God himself telling him that his time was up. Yet he pleaded with God and his wish was granted. So I have to agree with Ben here. Assurance or no, we certainly are able, and I think that we are encouraged to plead our hearts desires to the one who hears us and cares for us.

[Kami Tuenning]

I know it's not really within our tradition, but in the back of my mind there is some at least oblique biblica reference to it. I had a request from a child to be anointed and pray for her deceased father, and I did so. I did it out of pastoral concern for her, since I did not know her dad and have no idea what his spiritual state was at the time of his death.

Is there any support for the idea of commending the souls of the departed on to Christ?


Roy,

Here are a couple:

( II Macabbees 12:38-46 )

38 So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the same place. 39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 And they found under the coats of the slain, some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. 41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. 42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. 43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), 45 and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

It is pretty much agreed that Luther disregarded these books because they didn't fit his theology. Yes, the Pope of his day was corruptly abusing his office, yet Luther tended to throw the baby out with the bath water on more than one occasion.

Also, (You will have fun with this one!.....)

II Timothy 1:18

[Dale Cozby]

Dale,

I must be missing something in your post. I'm not advocating praying people out of purgatory. I was completely at a loss as to what to do with a broken-hearted little girl who is grieving the loss of her dad. About all I can tell her is that he is in Jesus' arms and care right now. It's an area of my theology I know I need to develop, but I didn't feel like that was the time or place to tell people that their choices in life dictate their eternal destiny. Especially since I didn't know her father at all.
Roy, don't get me wrong, i am NOT saying you did anything wrong. Offering comfort is the foremost thing we should do. Being theologically correct comes way down the list of worries.

When asked to pray for a dead loved one(especially by a child), we can word our prayer to be one of thanksgiving for their life with us and for the fact they are not suffering(in this life anymore), for the fact we all have hope in Jesus who is our merciful and loving savior, and for all they left behind who care for them to be comforted by the fact they are in Jesus' care, all without crossing over the line and asking for something God won't answer and leaving them later confused and wondering about the afterlife.

Man, we all have enough to wonder about with adding the next life to the mix huh? Sorry if I sounded condemning....it is what i do in here.:ihe_cowboy:

[John Reilly]

I know it's not really within our tradition, but in the back of my mind there is some at least oblique biblica reference to it. I had a request from a child to be anointed and pray for her deceased father, and I did so. I did it out of pastoral concern for her, since I did not know her dad and have no idea what his spiritual state was at the time of his death.

Is there any support for the idea of commending the souls of the departed on to Christ?

Hi Roy, I support you. I read the litergy commending the souls of the departed on to Christ at every grave side committal service. Offering love and compassion to a ten year girl is good pastoral care. I took a unit of Clinical Pastoral Education (CPE) and witnessed several occasions the use of the Common Book of Prayer liturgy for anointing the dead. A Catholic Priest anointed and prayed fro the dead person anointing the head, hands and feet. It was an intimate, compassionate, Spirit filled liturgy that conveyed God's love. grace, and comfort to family members. They were very thankful, and expressed a God given peace in their hearts. On another occasion as a hospital Chaplain on call, on an Easter Sunday Morning I was called tot he ER for DOA. The ER doctor was continuing life support until a clergy member could offer last rite. I anointed the person with oil, read Psalm 23, prayed the prayer of commendation of soul into the hands of God. When I said, "Amen," The doctor looked at me and the family looked at and then the doctor said, "I am going to stop the machines now. The monitors quickly showed decreasing life signs, the alarms went off, the doctor and nurse turned off the monitors. The doctor then stated the time to death. The family thanked me for coming. On the way out the doctor thanked me for coming. God's grace and comfort was conveyed. Pastoral Care is always a good thing to do in whatever Faith situation we may find ourselves.

[Roy Richardson]

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm inclined to err on the side of grace and take my lumps for that. It's a difficult situation, especially with a child. She seemed to be blessed by the anointing and prayers.

[Gina Stevenson]

So much has been said about this man's spiritual state, tho' it's been acknowledged that the little girl certainly did need comforting. My tho'ts first went to imagining a pastor praying with her and thanking God that He did not suffer anymore [which you most likely included], because she may have had no tho't whatsoever about his spiritual state, but about his physical state, most likely having seen his suffering and therefore leaving that uppermost in her little mind, aside from just missing him.

[Billie Goodson]

I know it's not really within our tradition, but in the back of my mind there is some at least oblique biblica reference to it. I had a request from a child to be anointed and pray for her deceased father, and I did so. I did it out of pastoral concern for her, since I did not know her dad and have no idea what his spiritual state was at the time of his death.

Is there any support for the idea of commending the souls of the departed on to Christ?

I still have the thought stuck in my head that there seems to be an implication by many that her request was for his salvation to some degree. From the information you provide, her father could be the most devout Christian that would give Paul a run for his money, but we just don't know it. Nothing in your statement says anything about praying for the father's salvation. Having feelings for the dead is not unique to our time, it seems that Lazarus' sister displayed feelings toward her dead brother and Jesus did not rebuke her for that. If we go by what Jesus rebuked people for asking, then we can't ask for wine at weddings (although he granted the request) but petitions for the dead (there seems to be three(?) occurrences) seemed to move him to tears and action.

I think your last post speaks to the true effect of the prayer, quoting you,
She seemed to be blessed by the anointing and prayers. If prayers are a means of grace, then it seems that you provided an avenue for that means and that seems wholly efficacious in that regards. Just my opinion from the pew.

[Roy Richardson]

I still have the thought stuck in my head that there seems to be an implication by many that her request was for his salvation to some degree. From the information you provide, her father could be the most devout Christian that would give Paul a run for his money, but we just don't know it. Nothing in your statement says anything about praying for the father's salvation. Having feelings for the dead is not unique to our time, it seems that Lazarus' sister displayed feelings toward her dead brother and Jesus did not rebuke her for that. If we go by what Jesus rebuked people for asking, then we can't ask for wine at weddings (although he granted the request) but petitions for the dead (there seems to be three(?) occurrences) seemed to move him to tears and action.

I think your last post speaks to the true effect of the prayer, quoting you, If prayers are a means of grace, then it seems that you provided an avenue for that means and that seems wholly efficacious in that regards. Just my opinion from the pew.

I have held back some information out of privacy concerns, but it is fair to question his spiritual state because of the manner in which he died, which were not of natural causes.

She didn't ask me to pray for his salvation, but I did pray that Jesus would hold him in his loving arms and deal with him lovingly and justly.

[Billie Goodson]

I have held back some information out of privacy concerns, but it is fair to question his spiritual state because of the manner in which he died, which were not of natural causes.

She didn't ask me to pray for his salvation, but I did pray that Jesus would hold him in his loving arms and deal with him lovingly and justly.

I think it may be fair for you to question his spiritual state, but all we had was assumption. You have provided additional information that now confirms the assumption of many, however, without that information, I don't know that I would say it was "fair". I have trouble with always assuming the worst, but that may just be a me thing. Maybe others picked it up from the clues that I may just miss because I am not sensitive to them. Sensitivity is a fleeting attribute for me.

If that had been my daughter, or family member or friend, I would be quietly saying a prayer of thanks to God for having you hearing her request. That much is for sure.