Nudity and Prevenient Grace

[Wilson L. Deaton]

How's that for an intriguing title?

What is really behind Adam and Even feeling the need to discontinue being nudists?

A common answer is that they felt shame at their nakedness... But why did God make "shame" a consequence for sin? I was taught as a youngster that it was a punishment for the fall. Humans (especially men) like seeing nudes so God took away that "privilege" just like parent's might take away a toy from an unruly child.

However, I believe that God's ways are not arbitrary but rather based on God's love for us and because he knows what is best for us. For example, take the theory that I believe explains God's law regarding pork. It wasn't just because he wanted to withhold pork from us. With improper cooking techniques it was too dangerous. Later, when it was safer, he alllowed it.

Along this way of thinking I just read an interesting statement with regard to why God made us feel the need for clothing as a consequence of the fall: Dr. Harold Mare says, "... through implanting modesty and self-respect in our hearts, God has caused us to protect our unpresentable parts (as the sex organs) from exploitation by properly covering them."

If this theory is accepted then shame at nudity is actually one more example of prevenient grace; a gift, not a "punishment!"

This also gives additional "ammunition" as we try to teach our people the importance of dressing modestly. Can we help our young ladies (especially, but also our young men) to understand that God's call for modest dress isn't simply to rob them of sex appeal but rather he is trying to protect them from being objectified and used.

Any thoughts?

Wilson

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

All i know is that i hope that Jesus doesn't come back while i am taking a shower - i have yet to figure out how i would solve that problem - i don't wanta sail through the skies nude.

edited to say - the sillies are replacing the intellect thought processes for NazNet. School does that to me. Hey, - nevermind.....:)

[Wilson L. Deaton]

All i know is that i hope that Jesus doesn't come back while i am taking a shower - .... i don't wanta sail through the skies nude.

Haven't you ever seen an old rapture movie where piles of clothes were left laying around? If you accept that then being dressed won't help. (Perhaps you will be given a new robe simultaneously to being called upward.)

;-)
Wilson

[Paul Whitaker]

I have thought that our 'earthly' robes would be left behind just as Jesus's raiment was left.

[Brad Mercer]

Wilson, that's certainly one plausible perspective. Here's another. This is an excerpt from a sermon I preached on May 8, 2005:

************

Perfect Love always loves. God IS love. Before the world was made, before anything was made that was made, God is love. God innately exists in relationship. All love and all relationship spring from him. Before anyone existed but God, on the very first page of the Bible, he says:

"Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves...." So God created people in his own image; God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:26-27 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Ge+1%3A26-27) (NLT)

He says “us” and “our” even though it’s just him, because he is love and relationship, and exists as this unique, overflowing oneness. So he loves, and his love creates us to love and be loved. In our original condition, nothing in our hearts or minds limited our capacity to experience loving relationship.

Now, although Adam and his wife were both naked, neither of them felt any shame.
Gen 2:25 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Ge+2%3A25) (NLT)

They had no fear, no shame, no doubt that they were loved and lovable, nothing that kept them from loving. They walked in open, unguarded friendship with God in the garden, in the evening, in the cool of the day. Then one day, they listened to another voice, that called the truth of God a lie. A serpent in the garden told them they weren't really good enough, after all. The serpent told them that God didn't really love them, after all, that he wasn't giving them good stuff after all, but rather that he was trying to hoard all the best stuff for himself. Eventually, they chose to accept and believe the lie that said they weren't quite good enough, and God didn't really love them, and that they would have to steal what it took to make them valuable. Of course, that effort didn't make them more valuable. Instead, in that moment when they listened to the lie, fear replaced love, and defensiveness replaced openness.

They suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they strung fig leaves together around their hips to cover themselves. Toward evening they heard the LORD God walking about in the garden, so they hid themselves among the trees. The LORD God called to Adam, "Where are you?" He replied, "I heard you, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked." "Who told you that you were naked?" the LORD God asked.
Gen 3:7-11 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Ge+3%3A7-11) (NLT)

Now, they feel shame, they feel exposed, they feel fear; they withdraw from relationship; they hide from Love. God didn't give them shame; God didn't withdraw from them; God didn't tell them they were exposed. They did that. God, in fact, never quits telling them that they are valuable. In the Old Testament, He inspires a writer to say:

I praise you because you made me in an amazing and wonderful way. What you have done is wonderful. I know this very well.
Psalms 139:14 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Ps+139%3A14) (NCV)



*******************

[Larry Osweiler]

I certainly don't feel any conviction being naked when I hot tub. Of course we have a fenced in yard and I only do that when it's dark outside.
By the way, we just got in from hottubbing and it was a brisk 22 degrees. It was 101 degrees in the hottub.:fav18

[BobHunt]

the old hymn says "when clothed in his brightness, transported I rise...." I dont think you have to worry about being in the shower!


"He Hideth My Soul"

[Carsten Schermuly]

However, I believe that God's ways are not arbitrary but rather based on God's love for us and because he knows what is best for us. For example, take the theory that I believe explains God's law regarding pork. It wasn't just because he wanted to withhold pork from us. With improper cooking techniques it was too dangerous. Later, when it was safer, he alllowed it.



"he alllowed it"

Please, where to read?



I think, it is still not allowed (to protect us, not take off a joy). Pork (pig meat) is unhealthy - and nothing else than unhealthy.


Correcture: "not take off a joy" should be "not to take off a joy"

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Haven't you ever seen an old rapture movie where piles of clothes were left laying around? If you accept that then being dressed won't help. (Perhaps you will be given a new robe simultaneously to being called upward.)

;-)
Wilson

yeah yeah - i've seen that. But, i forgot about that when i posted that. i was even a part of the dorm trick that we played on our dorm mom - we played *rapture* real good one night....


Okay - i think all NazNetters everywhere needs to agree/shake on it - that we will fly into the skies with our eyes shut very very tight......

hehe...

okay - i read about the new garments, too - maybe oh maybe they will be instantaneously.....

Think if i scribble that request down Jesus might consider it?

[Carsten Schermuly]

If this theory is accepted then shame at nudity is actually one more example of prevenient grace; a gift, not a "punishment!"



Are not all things we ever can see around us gifts?

Free to use.
To use for free.

It is our place to decide between good or bad. Do we use it in a good way, it is a blessing, do we use it in a bad way, it will break our neck.
It is our own choice.

[Carsten Schermuly]

All i know is that i hope that Jesus doesn't come back while i am taking a shower ...



He is the perfect gentleman, Mylady!
He will wait for the right moment - no doubts.

[Carsten Schermuly]

... on the other side, seen on Adam & Eve, it is his will to see us naked - in an innocently mind. For that case, he will wait also for a pretty warm summer day to come back - why he in his love should make us freezing and teeth shattering?

[Jill Mickelson]

Several thoughts....I recently read about Christians belonging to Christian Nudist Camps......????????.....and I have a huge problem with that. Also....those involved also walk around their house that way with their children present. I don't see how a Christian could be a nudist and practice it with strangers.

Another thought: Did anybody hear Chuck Swindoll today, sharing about OBE at the time of death? (OBE: out of body experiences) VERY Interesting to hear what he had to share today. Then I got home and read the Reader's Digest and "just happened" upon the same subject! Hmmmmmm.....but the author of the Reader's Digest isn't a believer but did share some similar things that Chuck Swindoll shared. Swindoll talked about the person leaving their physical body, and knowing that they had a different body. One very godly Nazarene man shared with me one time about how he was at the Hospital and left his body and watched everything that the Doctors and Nurses did after he colapsed. I'll never forget that testimony!

To get to the point: aren't we are clothed in Robes of Righteousness when we leave this earth? (I know, we have joked about the piles of clothes left behind too! hahahaha!)

[Carsten Schermuly]

This also gives additional "ammunition" as we try to teach our people the importance of dressing modestly. Can we help our young ladies (especially, but also our young men) to understand that God's call for modest dress isn't simply to rob them of sex appeal but rather he is trying to protect them from being objectified and used.



It does not need to touch this theme by any word. Talking the right way about sin, forgiveness, holiness, eternal life, the lambs holy blood etc will teach to love the Lord. With that, tons of secondairy themes are from table (in sport dress in church for sunday morning service? etc).

Watch Adam, please.
He was ashamed in the presence of the Lord. He tried to hide his naked body. Not needed to say to him "dress up". In case, Adam had clothes to that time - for sure, he had taken a complete suit.

[Carsten Schermuly]

I don't see how a Christian could be a nudist and practice it with strangers.

Another thought: ... One very godly Nazarene man shared with me one time about how he was at the Hospital and left his body and watched everything that the Doctors and Nurses did after he colapsed. I'll never forget that testimony!



In Germany was about eight years ago a 32 year old man clinical dead and has met under the gate of Jerusalem the Lord Jesus, saying to him "Too early, I send you back to teach others".

During weeks his mother sat byside his bed, praying day and night. Every day she read the same bible verse (I have forgotten, sorry) a psalm word (from psalm 119?)- similar like "I will alive and I will glorify you for the reast of my life"
She had the vision.
She has never given up.
At least she was right - like Hannah and her prayer.

It was a big spectacle, made headlines in all newspapers, I remember well. He travelled around as an evangelist and many, many people followed the call.

[Carsten Schermuly]

"under the gate" - he was able to look inside Jerusalem and described it.

[Jill Mickelson]

In Germany was about eight years ago a 32 year old man clinical dead and has met under the gate of Jerusalem the Lord Jesus, saying to him "Too early, I send you back to teach others".

During weeks his mother sat byside his bed, praying day and night. Every day she read the same bible verse (I have forgotten, sorry) a psalm word (from psalm 119?)- similar like "I will alive and I will glorify you for the reast of my life"
She had the vision.
She has never given up.
At least she was right - like Hannah and her prayer.

It was a big spectacle, made headlines in all newspapers, I remember well. He travelled around as an evangelist and many, many people followed the call.
Carsten, WONDERFUL Story! I took notes while listening to Chuck Swindoll today. He shared some titles of some books about this experience. Chuck also shared the common sequence of events that happens to those who have died and then come back. I found that to be fascinating! One of the last things Chuck shared was that people had to share their experiece quickly or a sort of amnesia would occur. Also that many scoff at the people's stories of their experience so they quit sharing. I could share more of Chuck's message if anybody is interested. ~~ Sorry for getting off the track of this thread. But when I heard Chuck share this today, those who had died didn't seem to mention that they were nude when they "died".

[Carsten Schermuly]

It is the same like parenting.

Teach a little child to watch parents autorithy, it will follow later easily. "Do your homework." is not needed to say every day - it does not need to fight against a rebel - day by day to make him willigly to do his homework.

An adult, got the right spiritual wisdom, must not be teached how to be dressed well.

[Carsten Schermuly]

I am hardheaded in healthy food questions. I want to know where to read, the Lord had allowed to eat pig meat.
Unprecise answers like, "Paul said - All things are allowed" are not accepted - sooorrrrrrrrrrry!



Correcture: in my next life I choose english as my mothertongue, ha, ha!

[Carsten Schermuly]

But when I heard Chuck share this today, those who had died didn't seem to mention that they were nude when they "died".



You hit the center.

[Brad Mercer]

I am hardheaded in healthy food questions. I want to know where to read, the Lord had allowed to eat pig meat.
Unprecise answers like, "Paul said - All things are allowed" are not accepted - sooorrrrrrrrrrry!



Correcture: in my next life I choose english as my mothertongue, ha, ha!

How's this? ;-)

Apostelgeschichte 10 (Elberfelder)


9 Am folgenden Tag aber, während jene reisten und sich der Stadt näherten, stieg Petrus um die sechste Stunde auf das Dach, um zu beten. 10 Er wurde aber hungrig und verlangte zu essen. Während sie ihm aber zubereiteten, kam eine Verzückung über ihn.
11 Und er sieht den Himmel geöffnet und ein Gefäß, gleich einem großen, leinenen Tuch, herabkommen, an vier Zipfeln auf die Erde herabgelassen;
12 darin waren allerlei vierfüßige und kriechende Tiere der Erde und Vögel des Himmels.
13 Und eine Stimme erging an ihn: Steh auf, Petrus, schlachte und iß!
14 Petrus aber sprach: Keineswegs, Herr! Denn niemals habe ich irgend etwas Gemeines oder Unreines gegessen.
15 Und wieder erging eine Stimme zum zweiten Mal an ihn: Was Gott gereinigt hat, mach du nicht gemein!

[Carsten Schermuly]

For this I have already waited.

It means not all men on the globe.
It means not all times.

It means only Peter - and only in one night - in a dream.
Why?
To teach people "My commandments are lifted up?"
No.
Only as preparation to meet Cornelius.

Cornelius was unclean. He was member of a strange folk, he was not counted to the children of Israel. Following jews rules, he could not become a member of a christian community. To that time members of christian communities could become only jews.

Cornelius was the very first "unclean" christian.



Your answer is unprecise.

The pork question is still not answered.

(May I ask you, you had answered the same way in a theological test on your university?)

[Carsten Schermuly]

Why I am so hardheaded?
Am I a judging mind?
No.

Pig meat will destroy mens health. It is confirmed by many hard facts.

To be sick is not funny.

I ask not to know it better. I ask not to make only hot air.

People must learn to eat better food - or they have to learn what pain means and their families have to learn what tears are.
It is serious.

[Carsten Schermuly]

I made two mistakes.

It was not night, it was day.

It was not a dream, it was a vision.

[Hans Deventer]

I was reminded of this story, a vision of Sadhu Sundar Singh, an Indian Christian found here http://www.eaglevision.com.my/ssvisions.htm

A WICKED MAN PERMITTED TO ENTER HEAVEN

Once in my presence a man of evil life entered at death into the world of spirits. When the angel and saints wished to help him he at once began to curse and revile them, and say, "God is altogether unjust. He has prepared heaven for such flattering slaves as you are, and casts the rest of mankind into hell. Yet you call Him Love!" The angels replied, "God certainly is Love. He created men that they might live forever in happy fellowship with Him, but men, by their own obstinacy, and by abuse of their free will have turned their faces away from Him, and have made hell for themselves. God neither casts any one into hell, nor will He ever do so, but man himself, by being entangled in sin, creates hell for himself. God never created any hell."

Just then, the exceedingly sweet voice of one of the high angels was heard from above saying, "God gives permission that this man may be brought into heaven." Eagerly the man stepped forward accompanied by two angels, but when they reached the door of heaven, and saw the holy and light-enveloped place and the glorious and blessed inhabitants that dwell there, he began to feel uneasy. The angels said to him, "See how beautiful a world is this! Go a little farther, and look at the dear Lord sitting on His throne." From the door he looked, and then as the light of the Sun of Righteousness revealed to him the impurity of his sin-defiled life, he started back in an agony of self-loathing, and fled, with such precipitancy, that he did not even stop in the intermediate state of the world of spirits, but like a stone he passed through it, and cast himself headlong into the bottomless pit.

Then the sweet and ravishing voice of the Lord was heard saying, "Look, My dear children, none is forbidden to come here, and no one forbade this man, nor has any one asked him to leave. It was his own impure life that forced him to flee from this holy place, for, 'Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God' (John 3:3).

The man could not stand transparancy, had to hide himself. I have always understood this to be the heart of the story about the nakedness of Adam and Eve, and also understand why in a good spiritual relation between husband and wife, it is not an issue, when physical transparancy reflects spiritual transparancy.

[Gina Stevenson]

Is He going to rapture us about six months apart ... northern and southern hemisphere? ha! You forgot that when it's summer where you are, the southern hemisphere is having winter, and vice versa. :p

... on the other side, seen on Adam & Eve, it is his will to see us naked - in an innocently mind. For that case, he will wait also for a pretty warm summer day to come back - why he in his love should make us freezing and teeth shattering?

[Carsten Schermuly]

Is He going to rapture us about six months apart ... northern and southern hemisphere? ha! You forgot that when it's summer where you are, the southern hemisphere is having winter, and vice versa. :p



Dearest sister, I am a MAN!
How I could forget anything ever? IMPOSSIBLE!

Remember, we are about 6.500.000.000 noses on earth and we all must pass the town wall gates - by foot - how long will last that, please?
In case, every second 400 people could enter the town (it is realistic), it is a perfect time plan - after a half year the last has left and the light could be switched off! Nobody must freeze - not on northern hemisphere, not on southern hemisphere.



"Imagination** is more important than knowledge."



You said it!

I wonder why you are not born as a MAN?

[Gina Stevenson]

Dearest sister, I am a MAN!
How I could forget anything ever? IMPOSSIBLE!

Awww, come on! You know better'n that, Carsten! ;)

You said it!
I wonder why you are not born as a MAN?

No, I didn't say that ... Einstein did; but it's fitting, so I quoted him. As for not being a man ... hey! "I am woman, hear me ROOOAAARRR!" [heard that song? :p] And I like being feminine. ;)

As for certain characteristics that some suggest happen more to a man, 'can say a few might apply here. For instance, always loved math & took more than I was required to take; depth perception = very good; spatial perception = same (for instance, can often walk into a room and give the size, or close)].

[Carsten Schermuly]

Awww, come on! You know better'n that, Carsten! ;)



Please, from what you are talking?



No, I didn't say that ... Einstein did; but it's fitting, so I quoted him.



Sorry, what did he say?



As for not being a man ... hey! "I am woman, hear me ROOOAAARRR!" [heard that song? :p] And I like being feminine. ;)



That is soo nice of your parents!
In case we will meet another and I will kiss your hand (in Germany no more usual, but still in Wien, Austria on special festivals - in very, very fine clothes) - how would look that - once you were not you?



As for certain characteristics that some suggest happen more to a man, 'can say a few might apply here. For instance, always loved math & took more than I was required to take; depth perception = very good; spatial perception = same (for instance, can often walk into a room and give the size, or close)].



What do you think to found a construction company or an architects office?
I could play your secretary.

[Carsten Schermuly]

We do not loose grace by eating pig meat (and other things, named as not allowed). We are covered by the blood of Golgotha. But - eating pig (and other things, named as not allowed) is unright in every case because Jesus fulfilled the law, but had not lifted up.
Not lifted up
will result in sickness - not watching the food laws.
We are forgiven, but must carry the consequences of handling wrong.

[Carsten Schermuly]

What is allowed is counted up in Genesis one, verse 29 - fruits and plants, greens, herbes. It is on our intelligence to take not wrong things like poisoned plants or plants and fruits with too much fruit acids etc.

Make a test?
Eat only natural food for only three month?

Not denaturated, hand made - not heated, not baken, not cooked, not pasteurized (nothing from a supermarkets industrial food). In case you need calories because sport, take fruits, containing the right sord of oil like linen seeds or nuts.


Only for three month (leave kitchen stove cold - except for tea)
and you are top fit and twenty years younger and your immunesystem is the very best you have ever had. Once you are sick by a chronic sickness, it needs to handle wise, to make the right choices - no question.

I give you my word,

please save this forum message and its timestamp and return after ninety days to hang me up once I did not tell the truth.

Be carefully, please - take literature as guide. Do not switch too fasten, to change from traditional food to natural food must be done carefully like to break fasten times.
Only one positive effect should be already enaugh as pro argument,
by natural food you are protected against cancer - in all cases. All anciesties and fears are blown away.


Correcture: it is not to follow my judging mind - it is the will of the Lord to see his beloved children healthy and happy.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Carsten, the words you speak are so foreign to the western culture and way of life. Your words remind me of the three Hebrew children who requested a different diet.

Okay, i am not fighting your words - i have learned a lot from school. my problem is more - i am at a loss to prepare a meal like this that my family would eat.

So, would you mind posting a three month menu?

i have developed a 7 layer salad that is perfectly balanced with all the required elements in a day. i could live off that salad, but my family won't.

What else would you serve?

You say - cold stove. Are you also saying - no rice?

*listening here*
What is allowed is counted up in Genesis one, verse 29 - fruits and plants, greens, herbes. It is on our intelligence to take not wrong things like poisoned plants or plants and fruits with too much fruit acids.

Make a test?
Eat only natural food for only three month?

Not denaturated, hand made - not heated, not baken, not cooked, not pasteurized (nothing from a supermarkets industrial food). In case you need calories because sport, take fruits, containing the right sord of oil like linen seeds or nuts.


Only for three month (leave kitchen stove cold - except for tea)
and you are top fit and twenty years younger and your immunesystem is the very best you have ever had. Once you are sick by a chronic sickness, it needs to handle wise, to make the right choices - no question.

I give you my word,

please save this forum message and its timestamp and return after ninety days to hang me up once I did not tell the truth.

Be carefully, please - take literature as guide. Do not switch too fasten, to change from traditional food to natural food must be done carefully like to break fasten times.
Only one positive effect should be already enaugh as pro argument,
by natural food you are protected against cancer - in all cases. All anciesties and fears are blown away.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Carsten, the words you speak are so foreign to the western culture and way of life.



In Germany it is nearby the same.
70 percent of the US population is overweighted.
50 percent of the german population is overweighted.
Cancer and other health statistics looking nearby equal.
For sure - it is a big question about our civilisation and cultures - a real hard challenge. For example - "do no more eat for three months in a restaurant".



Your words remind me of the three Hebrew children who requested a different diet.



It is true. They were found as the most pretty (I said "twenty years younger").



Okay, i am not fighting your words - i have learned a lot from school. my problem is more - i am at a loss to prepare a meal like this that my family would eat.

So, would you mind posting a three month menu?



Natural food reciepe books (or collections on internet?).
They will tell how to make it taste well.



i have developed a 7 layer salad that is perfectly balanced with all the required elements in a day. i could live off that salad, but my family won't.



It is not a must. We are free to do what we want. It is individual. For me it is the same with my family - but Ruth will watch it as it is possible, mindst the half of our food is green.
Individual.
I am tempted every day to lie. How do I decide?
Ruth is tempted every day to lie. How will she decide?

My sister Ulrike had overcome cancer twenty years ago. Since that she is eating strictly her diet - and looks really as to be twenty years younger - and - invisible - her general condition is also like twenty years younger - top fit.

Normally a family (with guests) will sit around a table while eating and is eating from the same pot. So it is easier to make for all noses the same food - and not by seven people seven times different food - or food preparing were a fulltime job.



What else would you serve?



As long we do not step in a health problem, we are not too strictly. We have to respect our childrens taste. I remember to my children days, "You have to eat that!" - it was HORROR for me.
(And what, they have to travel? Where are we parents with our healthy food then? etc etc etc)
A few days ago our 14aged Matthias had a temperature of 39.9 degrees Celsius after cold. So we filled him up to the top by vitamine pills and made cold compresses around his legs.
Such things we have to await - beeing inconsequent and not strictly.
We must find a good balance.

No question - it were much better to eat day by day your salad - mindst as a pretty high percentage of daily food.
I look for unbeatable arguments - for example, asking my son Cornelius: "Would you like to see your sport team as a gold medal winner? So be wise and watch what you are eating."



You say - cold stove. Are you also saying - no rice?

*listening here*



It is individual. I know rice also as part of therapies - for example as rice milk. As I know, the real healthy rice is no more in trade since more than sixty years - the full, brown corn. Is white rice a good food? I do not know, I am unsure. Eating heated food will not kill us, so exceptions could be done. In face of a hungry world we must thank for every thing, will fill a belly - cooked or not cooked.
Please see above - it needs to find a balance. Better were to have only natural food.

Goal is not to watch in fears "I am not allowed to make a mistake".
Goal is to have a healthy body to be able to act without problems unto the last day of life
Goal is a healthy body and a healthy mind (some mind sicknesses could be overcomed or mindst bettered by natural food) - to be happy.

[Gina Stevenson]

We do not loose grace by eating pig meat (and other things, named as not allowed). We are covered by the blood of Golgotha. But -- not watching the food laws .......
We are forgiven, but must carry the consequences .......

Yes, I know of this one gal who seemed to have a good bit of trouble with neuralgia, arthritis, etc ... then she decided to be a "good Jew" -- which her fmaily was, anyway. So, they started following the old health/food laws. 'Said she felt much better once she started leaving pork alone. Interesting ....

[Ron Davis]

i have developed a 7 layer salad that is perfectly balanced with all the required elements in a day. i could live off that salad, but my family won't.



Could you post or e-mail me the recipe for the 7 layer salad.

[Carsten Schermuly]

The spiritual side.

To be able to have the choice of better food is an expression of the love of the Lord.
It is not a must.
We can develop a better sight of this - like "do I sing hymnals or do I sing folk songs?" - What will help me and others up?

[Carsten Schermuly]

Yes, I know of this one gal who seemed to have a good bit of trouble with neuralgia, arthritis, etc ... then she decided to be a "good Jew" -- which her fmaily was, anyway. So, they started following the old health/food laws. 'Said she felt much better once she started leaving pork alone. Interesting ....



In medieval Europe pestilence killed millions. The trouble was stopped by returning to the Lords hygiene laws. People had no knowledge about hygiene to that time. They followed blindly the bible. Faith - trusting in leadership of a good shepheard - has helped. As we know, the story did sound in another way - "You have to follow church teachings!" - but in this case the church was lucky to teach the very right thing.

[Judy Engel]

I am hardheaded in healthy food questions. I want to know where to read, the Lord had allowed to eat pig meat.
Unprecise answers like, "Paul said - All things are allowed" are not accepted - sooorrrrrrrrrrry!

It is my understanding that all things were considered "clean" according to the vision given to Peter three times while he was on the rooftop praying. I am at work without my Bible to look it us, but my recollection of the vision was that a "sheet" was lowered down with all sortsof "unclean" things in it....animals that had not been allowed for food etc.......and Peter was told in his vision to not call anything unclean that God had made clean. THis wold also extend to the Gentiles as soon after the vision ended, a gentile came to the door to request Peter's presence inteh home of the centurion I beleive. Anyway, correct me if I am wrong.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Good point - hmm



It is my understanding that all things were considered "clean" according to the vision given to Peter three times while he was on the rooftop praying. I am at work without my Bible to look it us, but my recollection of the vision was that a "sheet" was lowered down with all sortsof "unclean" things in it....animals that had not been allowed for food etc.......and Peter was told in his vision to not call anything unclean that God had made clean. THis wold also extend to the Gentiles as soon after the vision ended, a gentile came to the door to request Peter's presence inteh home of the centurion I beleive. Anyway, correct me if I am wrong.

[Carsten Schermuly]

It is my understanding ...



It is official theology of many churches and I have NO problem with.
It is not my desire to turn things on head or to play the role of a naughty guy, contradicting to erect a new religion, "Christian pig heaters" or so.

To eat a little bit of pig we will alive.
To eat many food, containing pig, makes us sick.
To eat only pig will kill us.

In Switzerland lived a gentleman Ernst Günter (Guenter or Gunter on english computers), wrote a book "Lebendige Nahrung - Living food".
http://www.reformversand.ch/german/about/geschichte_eguenter.html - german
I know the author, I have visited him in his home to get the book in 1983. In Germany was not allowed to trade the book, it contains tips, only allowed to give by a physician, Mr. Günter was not a physician. The book today is revised and translated into many languages, now everybody can order it without any fears to leave a law.
He tells about two or three Ladies, have thought, "I am made from flesh, so I eat that" - they eat only meat and became sick and died.

White sugar is made from a plant. After the Lords food law allowed. Eat white sugar and become sick and die.

What sense will make now the theology of freedom?
Is it helpful?

[Carsten Schermuly]

The picture, the vision, given to Peter is too unprecise to read it as "food law is lifted up".
It is very unprecise. I personally do not trust in this sight. But - it is not important how to understand that.

[Carsten Schermuly]

A similar thing - hygiene laws.
Jesus said "It does not make men unclean to eat by unwashed fingers ..."
But - as we know, it is good to wash hands before eating (to follow the hygiene law) to stay healthy.

[Judy Engel]

If this theory is accepted then shame at nudity is actually one more example of prevenient grace; a gift, not a "punishment!"

I'm not sure how we got from nudity to pork, but I wanted to say about Wilson's comments that if we can transform our way of thinking to see modesty in this light, how revolutinary would that be for our kids?! Instead of deprivation it is protection. I'm not sure my own kids would apreciate the full impact of this idea but it is one I am definately willing to try out on them. I never thoguht of it in that way before and was modest out of a sense of shame instead of privilege. I also wonder how this would effect marriage relationships when both husband and wife have a good grasp of the idea of nudity not being shameful but of modesty being for our protection. I can't help but wonder. Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Carsten Schermuly]

The vision says, not to make unclean what is named clean by the Lord.
Where is the proof, to understand it in relation to food?


There is a proof, to understand it in relation to men.

Isajah 65, v. 1
I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
v. 2
I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

(sidewalk - have a garden party and questionable food from grill
v. 3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
v. 4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
v. 5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
Food from grill will cause cancer. It is highly dangerous. We should be really much more critical what to put in mouth.)

Quoted by the letter to the Romans
chapter 10, v. 20
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
v. 21
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

No doubts - the vision by Peter on the roof meets Cornelius - and today mission work.



Again - my hardheaded question, Ladies and Gentlemen,
where in the bible is to read "pig is allowed"?
There is no proof.
To point only to the vision by Peter is too unprecise!

[Carsten Schermuly]

I'm not sure how we got from nudity to pork, ...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson L. Deaton

However, I believe that God's ways are not arbitrary but rather based on God's love for us and because he knows what is best for us. For example, take the theory that I believe explains God's law regarding pork. It wasn't just because he wanted to withhold pork from us. With improper cooking techniques it was too dangerous. Later, when it was safer, he alllowed it.

[Carsten Schermuly]

the callings of a loving father

I said, Behold me, behold me

twice ! in the words by Isajah 65, 1.
The most people will follow the first call in their life. Others get another chance, a second call. I read that as an expression of extraordinairy patience with sinners. (I do not say, he calls only twice. It is individual how often we could hear the call during life.)

[Judy Engel]

Acts chapter 10 (The Bible in Basic English from www.crosswalk.com)
11 And he (Peter) saw the heavens opening, and a vessel coming down, like a great cloth let down on the earth, 12 In which were all sorts of beasts and birds. 13 And a voice came to him, saying, Come, Peter; take them for food. 14 But Peter said, No, Lord; for I have never taken food which is common or unclean. 15 And the voice came to him a second time, What God has made clean, do not you make common. 16 And this was done three times: and then the vessel was taken back into heaven.

The verses I underlined are the ones Iam referring to. I realize that too much of anything is bad for us. unhealthy enough to kill us even. God gave all kinds of animals and plants to eat. The priests in the Old Testment ate the sacrificed animals and used it to feed their families. In the US, much of our food is over proccessed and not as healthy as we would like to think, even fruits and veggies. Organically grown foods are VERY expensive and most people's schedules don't allow much time for gardening. Therefore, it takes a great effort and food bill to feed a family the way you describe. Then there is the problem of picky eaters (my husband being one of the worst!) who don't care for a great variety of fresh foods. I think more importantly that whether or not we actually eat pork is that our diet stay balanced with foods from a variety of sources, both animal and plant. It seems that is more God's design than complete exclusion of any one type of food. Anyway, just my observation. No offense intended here. Peace!

[John Kennedy]

Diligent search of the scriptures is one thing - abandoning the pig is quite another

There are some who would make the case that eating pork brings us closer to God. Nazarene evangelist Bud Robinson once so responded to a question asked in the Herald of Holiness. The writer asked if it was possible to eat pork and go to heaven. Robinson replied that indeed it was; that, in fact, the more pork one ate the quicker they would probably go there.

I'm sorry (well, maybe) for taking the thread in an unanticipated direction. It seems I can stoutly resist everything but overwhelming temptation.

[Brad Mercer]

It seems I can stoutly resist everything but overwhelming temptation.

My retired preacher father likes to say that, since the Bible says you won't be tempted beyond what you're able to bear, he figures that if he just can't resist, it must be God's will. I'm sure you're safe.

On the other hand, Daddy's theology might just be the tiniest bit shaky in one or two places like that, good Nazarene though he is. He also takes the verse that says "Let not the sun go down on your wrath" to mean it's okay to be mad all day, every day, as long as you're not mad at night.

:fav18

Brad

P.S. I just wanna be a blessing.

[John Kennedy]

I attempted to edit the above to say that any time you're working with a title like 'nudity and prevenient grace' you're gonna try to dress it up any way you can. (and i probably really SHOULD be sorry for that).

[Brad Mercer]

I attempted to edit the above to say that any time you're working with a title like 'nudity and prevenient grace' you're gonna try to dress it up any way you can. (and i probably really SHOULD be sorry for that).

Maybe we can tie it all back together by suggesting that prevenient grace has provided us with nude pigs to eat, but that we should avoid eating the talking, clothes-wearing pigs, like Miss Piggy.

By the way, another of my favorite sayings of my dad is that, "if this pig had known how good he was going to taste, he would have been glad to make the sacrifice."

Brad

P.S. I just wanna be a blessing.

[Carsten Schermuly]

I realize that too much of anything is bad for us. unhealthy enough to kill us even.



my words!



God gave all kinds of animals and plants to eat.



Sorry, first part of my anser is No.
Genesis 1, 29 makes a clear selection what to eat to stay healthy.

Second part
Yes, later
he has heard the yearning of his beloved folk and told Mose, OK - let them have their fun and let them have their BarBeQue.

Watching his laws is (according to the main theme "naked") a good thing, not to get burning bubbles on fingers, not to touch the hot stove. Reading the laws as an expression of love will give rest, peace about this hot pig question.

Going back to Genesis 1 - it is much better to have no BarBeQue and no stove - in relation to "stay healthy". Since alkind is not healthy (we all are sick - without any exception!) we should not wipe this idea easily away. It is the best way ever to become healthy - and to have a satisfied belly - and to have things to eat, tasting great!

To eat cold and green - means to have a stressfree life! Please look on it from any side you ever want.

Turn it - where is the "must" to eat other things than raugh plants?
Coke is not a christian drink - but to see in churches - identified as harmless (byside alcohol).
It is extreme unhealthy, inside the US not at least because it contains poisened water.

We should be more critical - in all things!



The priests in the Old Testment ate the sacrificed animals and used it to feed their families.



The Lord Jesus ate the lamb with his joung and drunk wine.
(Please note, lamb means not pig.)
This is not an argument to do the same. He was a footwalker, not a cardriver and not a couch potato - he was not permanently under the danger of civilisation sicknesses like heart and circulation deseaes or cancer etc.
In case we had a precise report, how often he had eaten cold and green - we would wonder.



In the US, much of our food is over proccessed and not as healthy as we would like to think, even fruits and veggies. Organically grown foods are VERY expensive and most people's schedules don't allow much time for gardening. Therefore, it takes a great effort and food bill to feed a family the way you describe.



Remember, what Belinda has said in her first answer to my food question? We are in unity - it is indeed a big challenge.

My mother told me, never ever to contradict to a Lady, so please forgive me.
"it takes a great ... food bill"

A few months ago I have read, a single apple in center of a japanese town will cost four euro. Seen over the thumb, Euro is nearby the same like US Dollars.

For a handfull of rice in some countries a worker must work 12 hours.

On the other side - how much do you spent for health (as consequence of bad food)?
How much you will leave in pharmacies or how much you have to pay for doctors help?

You are right - food can be expansive. It is a question how to see that.

I have been in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania and have watched tourists from Texas. They stood on the white fence of an amish family, looking around in the garden, counted up the different fruits and greens they were able to identify, "strawberries, beans, ..." - and laughed, in face of the rich and cheap offers of supermarkets, why amish will work hardly by their hands in their own gardens instead to buy such things.
Let me say - at least in times of crisises they know for what they do it.
The Lord promised, summer, winter and harvests never will end. The Lord did not promise, trade will last unto end. As we know, the bible teaches other stories about money for our future.

We should be more critical - in all things!

"organically" (do you mean food with a seal?) - I do not talk about quality classes, OK? It is secondairy.
In Afrika or in SouthAmerica such term could be not known, but "cold" or "green" or "raugh" or "sundryed". The bible also does not name quality classes.



Then there is the problem of picky eaters (my husband being one of the worst!) who don't care for a great variety of fresh foods.



My tip - invest in his health insurance contract. You as his widow will like that later. Look on statistics what chances he has to alive - and call your agent for an update.
This is not said in a hateful mind. It is not sarcasm. It meets reality.

Or - boil pig, cook it like you ever will do (in case you do that).
Take an apple (or any other fruit) and cut it.
Let him smell on the apple. Let him smell twice, really deep he should get it.
Then let him smell on the pig.
It stinks.
Again, the apple on the nose and then the pig. Pig is sooo icky!

For sure - it is a challenge.



I think more importantly that whether or not we actually eat pork is that our diet stay balanced with foods from a variety of sources, both animal and plant.



What please is the measurement, lain under such balance?
"A bit healthy" or "a bit sick"?
Everybody is free to do personally decisions.



It seems that is more God's design than complete exclusion of any one type of food.



"exclusions" - I have not talked about. Our european neighbours, the french people are known as frog leg eaters and people from Korea and China as dog eaters. What my Owl is, could be my wifes Nightingale.



Anyway, just my observation. No offense intended here. Peace!



Ha, ha! All over the world are spread fanatic people. Do you got the impression I am such a spinner?
My motive
read the NazNet prayer requests - they are already too hard!

I like the precise way you do talk. I have no fears to touch you or any other. The only one thing, does disturbe, that is - I could have act in a better way. Instead to ask under this theme, I could copy my pig question to a new thread. But - once I asked, I have not thought, the question could get such a looong tail.


I quote my own

We do not loose grace by eating pig meat (and other things, named as not allowed). We are covered by the blood of Golgotha. But - eating pig (and other things, named as not allowed) is unright in every case because Jesus fulfilled the law, but had not lifted up.
Not lifted up
will result in sickness - not watching the food laws.
We are forgiven, but must carry the consequences of handling wrong.

I add again
watching the laws as an expression of love, makes things much easier. I think, this meet Wilsons initial idea, right?

[Judy Engel]

The writer asked if it was possible to eat pork and go to heaven. Robinson replied that indeed it was; that, in fact, the more pork one ate the quicker they would probably go there.


Hahahaha!! that was a good one! :bannana

[Carsten Schermuly]

Brad, please what are you drinking? http://www.naznet.com/community/customavatars/avatar26_2.gif Lemonade, sweetened by white sugar?

[Carsten Schermuly]

Why you do joke about death - on the same place others do cry about cancer?

[Brad Mercer]

Why you do joke about death - on the same place others do cry about cancer?

Linda McCartney followed all your rules, and was just as agressive in pushing her dietary beliefs as you are, and died of cancer in her 50's. My greatgrandmother ate pork and fried foods and dipped snuff and died in her 90's. I eat whatever I want, whenever I want, and my cholesterol, blood pressure and heart rate are all very healthy. If bad things happen to us, we're goin to quite reasonbly be unhappy, no matter what we eat. If it looks likely that something bad is about to happen to us, we're going to quite reasonably be concerned about it, no matter what we eat. 120 people who were filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and who represent for all of us today the model church composed of model Christians, are all dead now, regardless of what they ate.

It's good to eat a balanced diet with lots of variety and in moderate quantities, but we are not bound by Mosaic law. I'm glad you have a cause that you feel strongly about. Your cause is not my cause. I don't feel strongly about it. Impose whatever restrictions you like on yourself. I'll make my own decisions. There's way too much agressive moral earnestness in this sad old world, and not nearly enough laughter.

What makes a man holy is what comes out of his mouth, not what goes in.

I won't apologize for laughing and you don't have to apologize for crusading.

Brad

[Brad Mercer]

Brad, please what are you drinking? http://www.naznet.com/community/customavatars/avatar26_2.gif Lemonade, sweetened by white sugar?
In the photograph I'm eating Cheese Whiz, an aersol spray cheese food product. I look and feel great at 49 years old. I am happy to hear that you feel great, too.

Brad

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

i can tell you that i never sit a nursing exam that doesn't have nutritional information on it. We are in a society that is killing itself because of what it is consuming.

However

As with all things - i come back to my most favorite and most hated word 'balance'.

i think that extremes on either side of this coin could be dangerous to one's health.

As in the headache thread, what works for you.

Bottom line - if your doctor is telling you that your health issues are related to what you are putting into your body - you need to listen and heed.

Be wise - -

[Carsten Schermuly]

Linda McCartney followed all your rules, and was just as agressive in pushing her dietary beliefs as you are, and died of cancer in her 50's.



"agressive ... as you are"

Am I?
Sure?

Once the fact, I take part on this forum is counted as aggression - to change that is quickly done.
It were interesting what of my phrases you define as to be aggressive.


Linda McCartney made mistakes, otherwise she did not die by cancer - no doubts. By the way, I can not remember, I have heard her name before. Who was it? A better food teacher? If so - it were interesting what she did say - and when it was
and
she could not follow my rules. Chronology were turned.



My greatgrandmother ate pork and fried foods and dipped snuff and died in her 90's. I eat whatever I want, whenever I want, and my cholesterol, blood pressure and heart rate are all very healthy.



Have I commanded you to eat this or that?

Have I directed any command or order on you?

Your reaction should been analyzed by a psychiatrist.
He could find out why you are aggressive.

You are a bit choleric?
Drink linden flower tea for some weeks - and you can easier stay cool.



If bad things happen to us, we're goin to quite reasonbly be unhappy, no matter what we eat.



The world has waited to hear this speech. One half of it is wrong - the half, touching health - not the other half, touching car accidents etc.



If it looks likely that something bad is about to happen to us, we're going to quite reasonably be concerned about it, no matter what we eat.



Again, wrong.

By better food we prevent sickness. This is fact.

To prevent sickness means to prevent pain and tears.



120 people who were filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and who represent for all of us today the model church composed of model Christians, are all dead now, regardless of what they ate.



Will you turn my words? Will you say, I have said,
"By better food we prevent death"?

In such thing I see your desire to make me a laughingly person - with a laughingly message (and this is also the background to make jokes - to show me and others what you do think about me and others, talking serious about better food. This is my reason to name you aggressive. You can not point to a reason to name me aggressive.)

You lovely representative of the good shepheard!
How nice!
How sensitive!
Is this a good example for the First Love?


All things in relation to better food, I have talked about, are the truth.
Proofable.


AND
there is much more hanging on!
For example mind sicknesses - via somatic automatisms.
The unsensitive way you are laughing, will show, you do not know what that means.

You have choosen in this case a wrong humor object. By your laughters you will show, you are sitting on a high horse. You will know how fasten sometimes people are coming down.



It's good to eat a balanced diet with lots of variety and in moderate quantities, but we are not bound by Mosaic law.



Will you turn my words? Will you say, I have said,
"we are bound by Mosaic law"?

Here is, what I have said
I quote my own

We do not loose grace by eating pig meat (and other things, named as not allowed). We are covered by the blood of Golgotha. But - eating pig (and other things, named as not allowed) is unright in every case because Jesus fulfilled the law, but had not lifted up.
Not lifted up
will result in sickness - not watching the food laws.
We are forgiven, but must carry the consequences of handling wrong.



Why we are wise to watch the laws?
Because our body is still the very same old model like Adam & Eve.
To follow Genesis 1, verse 29 will help up our health. It is poofed thousand and thousand times.



I'm glad you have a cause that you feel strongly about.



I think, this phrase is a lie.
In case, it were the truth, you would sound in all other parts of your message in the other direction, in the pro direction or you would not give a comment - not to make me feeling weak.
The arguments you have left before, are contradicting.

AND
What you are saying with this phrase without to use words.
You are proud.
You are a pastor (a theologician) I am a layman.
You will say similar things like this: "because you will not have another thing to feel strongly about, I make you the cheap gift to smile about your weakness. I have studied all this wisdom - and not you".



Your cause is not my cause.



I agree to. I enjoy that.
Once you are interested to know why I enjoy the difference, please ask me.
It is a bit long story, so I do not like to tell it without a special reason.



I don't feel strongly about it.



About what, please? The differences? ("Your cause is not my cause.")
Or about better food? Yes, it is easily to see.



Impose whatever restrictions you like on yourself.



How often I have said: "everybody is free to do individual decisions" (or similar) please?
Again
do you like to turn my words? Next step were to point by finger on me, I were a liar?



I'll make my own decisions.



Do it.



There's way too much agressive moral earnestness in this sad old world, and not nearly enough laughter.



I again have to split the answer.
Part One.
You are saying, I have taken in my hands the better moral?
And my motive? To feel strongly (above).
In other words,
I write by egoistic motives, I like to schoolmaster others.

Part Two
To tell a joke is not humor.
To laugh about a joke is not humor.
To joke about death (in neighbourhood of a Forum "Prayer Requests") is also not humor.



What makes a man holy is what comes out of his mouth, not what goes in.



I again have to split the answer.
Part One.
I have not contradicted to this word by the Lord Jesus. It does not need to teach me that. I quoted a part of it in relation to "washed hands".
What is wrong?

Part Two.
Read your own phrases, directed to me and tell me the same again, "What makes a man holy is what comes out of his mouth, ...".



I won't apologize for laughing and you don't have to apologize for crusading.

Brad



Crusading.
Oh, yes, e. g. for the victims of cancer.
Or would you like I should understand it this way
"Crusade on egoistic roads? To play the role of an intelligent health teacher?"




You as a pastor will teach me, - an uneducated sheep - on sundays, the theory of love (I could point to some online - sermons by you).

The theory of -



My offer to you - let us practize it. Let us talk to another in a more friendly sound.



What the theme "better food" means - the truth can not overshed by untruth - if so, just for a short while.
No matter, what I have said - correct or with mistakes and no matter what your personally mind is - facts are talking for themself.



AND
Once you are interested to know why I enjoy the difference, please ask me.
It is a bit long story, so I do not like to tell it without a special reason.

[Carsten Schermuly]

In the photograph I'm eating Cheese Whiz, an aersol spray cheese food product. I look and feel great at 49 years old. I am happy to hear that you feel great, too.

Brad



Before I got the other answer by you, in my mind was fun.
No I do no more put on the first part also its second part to complete for a smile.

[Carsten Schermuly]

As with all things - i come back to my most favorite and most hated word 'balance'.

i think that extremes on either side of this coin could be dangerous to one's health.



Please, let me understrike.
There are too much militant fighters for special diets. They do ruin the landscape. As a result we see the way it is talked - nervously, burdened by misunderstandings, easily overheated.

So I learned to add hundred times phrases like "it is done by free will" or "please take literature as your guide" or "do not follow blindly what I have said, be critical" (also and especially e. g. in case of diabetes, kidney stones, asthma etc etc etc)

Everybody must find out the very own individual way.
It needs to know a bit about related sciences
and
it needs to be carefully.

[Carsten Schermuly]

No answer is also an answer.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Carsten, i don't know to whom you posted this - but if it was to me - i've been at work all day.

i've come home - tired and weary - nothing personal to anyone regarding any subject - but i'm too tired to discuss. *smiles* i'm for snuggling with my hubby and eating a bowl of steaming beef stew.

Everyone - have a blessed Lord's Day. You are all appreciated.

No answer is also an answer.

[Gina Stevenson]

Belinda-Y, When you see this tomorrow, or whenever ... hope y'all had a nice warm snuggly s****e ... after that wonderful-sounding beef stew; haven't had that in ages. Might just have to think about making that, instead of soup next time I make a pot of whatever. ;)

Carsten, i don't know to whom you posted this - but if it was to me - i've been at work all day.

i've come home - tired and weary - nothing personal to anyone regarding any subject - but i'm too tired to discuss. *smiles* i'm for snuggling with my hubby and eating a bowl of steaming beef stew.

Everyone - have a blessed Lord's Day. You are all appreciated.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Carsten, i don't know to whom you posted this - ...



Sorry, I have seen too late your answer. Once I have download eMails, I saw Ginas answer to you - but have in the mass of spam overseen the notification about your answer.

"to whom"
I told Brad, he were aggressive to tell me, I were aggressive.
It's not OK to leave this unsatisfying situation.