Worship

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I'm interested in a more general discussion concerning worship.

I had earlier asked about "special music" versus congregationals and do people feel like they are worshiping etc.

Among other responses Brad raised the question, how is the sermon "worship?"

This got me thinking about definitions of worship and the purpose of worship.

Book I've been reading had some interesting things to say:

"The point of historic Christian worship is to convey a sense of divine presence, indeed to usher believers into the presence of God.(Emphasis the authors. Campbell and Burn, Wesleyan Essentials in a Multicultural Society, Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2004, p. 89.)"


The authors also suggest (though speaking more specifically of Methodist Churches) that one of our problems today is that we have lost too much of the sacredness or reverence from our services. "But today's services, ...., seem to often characterized by a kind of casualness that suggests that participants do not really sense themselves to be in the presence of a holy mystery. (Ibid, p. 93)." He suggests part of our theology backfired. We believed and taught that all of life is sacred so that Sunday morning shouldn't be "more" sacred than any other time. Instead of elevating reverence the rest of the week, however, we reduced the awe of the worship service.

What are your thoughts on these ideas? What other thoughts do you have on the definition and/or purpose of worship and the state of worship in our churches today?

Wilson

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Have you, by chance, read Drury's "The Wonder of Worship"? I am going through it for the second time and have shared it with a few others in the church.

He takes the various elements of worship and traces their history across the ages. He talks about things like music, prayer, preaching, baptism, and the Lord's Supper.

Also there is information on the altar call and testimony, plus a lot more. Based on some of your questions, I think you would really appreciate this book.

[Larry Osweiler]

I have been struggling with some of our "Wesleyan" forms of worship. I find less and less people resonding to the altar calls. Is the "mourner's bench" a mostly American form of responding? Is the alter benches really biblical? What about the pulpit, which in my church, is considered a sacred cow? Is the pulpit really biblical? Or is it something that began in Germany in the middle ages?
I feel we have lost the sense of Divine Presence on Sunday mornings. But how do we bring people back to a purely bibical way of worship? Communion, baptism, and the proclamation of the Word can be traced back to the early church. But what about the other things we do in our traditions?
Do we really usher in the Divine Presence by doing 40 days of this and 50 days of that? Or doing the latest packaged fad program from the megachurches? Do we bring a four week book report from the latest best selling author on Sunday mornings? Or do we take the Word of God and proclaim it and depend on the Holy Spirit to prick the hearts of people.
This year I began preaching from the Lectionary, which I've never done before. It is absolutely revolutionizing my preaching. I am moved by the Spirit each week. I have felt led to do multiple Scripture readings on Sunday morning. I don't feel we read the Scriptures enough on Sundays. What else convicts and penetrates the heart but the Word?
I read a book by Thomas C. Oden called "The Rebirth of Orthodoxy" that helped me focus on what the early Church did when it comes to worship and practice. It totally debunks the modern "feel good" theology and points us to a more structured and reverent worship.
Am I on the right track? I feel this is where God is directing us.

[William Hunter]

I have found the Ancient-Faith, Ancient-Evangelism, etc. series by Robert Webber some of the best reading I have done on worship. I have four or five books in this series. You have read with the understanding that he is out of reformational setting, but he has done extensive research in both Old and early church worship, practices, etc. Another book I read, "When Evangelsical Is Not Enough" is very interesting and thought provoking. I found Drury's book a bit shallow after reading Webber and some other writers out of more liturgical backgrounds. And yes, the "mourner's bench" is purely an American invention coming out of the revivalist and camp meeting days of the 1800's. Webber helped me see the transfer of the Altar of Sacrifice in the Tabernacle, and then its use in the very early New Testament church. I've used his insights in some of my teaching from the pulpit in attempt to help my people worhsip in more effective ways. They have asked for much more of this type of teaching.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

i've read my share of books and studies along side Garry for many years on this subject and others that relate to the function of the Christian as an individual and as a unit body.

There is value is going back and reading/knowing history meanings behind Biblical modeling. i am, personaly, having an intense hunger to actually read God's Word - and take it at its Word.

Garry has started a series on Sunday Evenings - The Imitations of Christ. Last night, Garry shared "What Kind of Worshipper does the Father Seek". You know, we can read scriptures so many times and still new things jump out. i had forgotten that our Father SEEKS worshippers.

We find in - John 4

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

That our Father seeks a true worshipper who is in spirit and in truth. So, for me - i am relearning what *in spirit* and *in truth* means.

It is more intriguing to me that these words regarding worship are spoken to the Samaritan Woman.
What do you think?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I have been struggling with some of our "Wesleyan" forms of worship. I find less and less people resonding to the altar calls. Is the "mourner's bench" a mostly American form of responding? Is the alter benches really biblical? What about the pulpit, which in my church, is considered a sacred cow? Is the pulpit really biblical? Or is it something that began in Germany in the middle ages?


Larry, just a thought...do these things have to be biblical? I don't find "how" to worship being described anywhere in the Bible. We are encouraged to worship in spirit, etc., but, in the N.T., there is nothing about furnishings, orders or worship, etc.

Maybe we are given leeway to develop such things on our own, to better minister to our society.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I found Drury's book a bit shallow after reading Webber and some other writers out of more liturgical backgrounds.

William, I know you don't mean anything critical of Drury in this, but I will point out that he repeatedly says in his book that his intention is to introduce these topics in such a way that the reader will want to read more scholarly works on the topics. He even has a section on where to turn for deeper studies and he lists Webber in that section.

[William Hunter]

Have you, by chance, read Drury's "The Wonder of Worship"? I am going through it for the second time and have shared it with a few others in the church.

He takes the various elements of worship and traces their history across the ages. He talks about things like music, prayer, preaching, baptism, and the Lord's Supper.

Also there is information on the altar call and testimony, plus a lot more. Based on some of your questions, I think you would really appreciate this book.

You are right, Scott. It is an elementary text for those who have not dug very deep into the subject of worship. It just may be a good place for some of our people to begin. The kind of worship in our denomination I grew up with just did not seem to have alot of depth in it as I learned more about worship and began to put some of the things I read into practice in my own life. And now that I am using many of the things I have learned in reading and personal practice in the worship I lead my people in, I am finding so many who are voicing strong appreciation for the changes we have made in our worship service.

Sometime when I listen as pastors talk back and forth in some of our information gatherings, I come away with the thought that for too many, worship is just one more thing to do in an already busy schedule. As I have taught and as my laypeople live out, more and more, Eph. 4:11-16, it gives me significantly more time for planning worship services, thinking through God's vision for our congregation, taking a hard look at all we do in the context of that vision, etc. I believe this is alot of the reason why I am more excited, and feel more motivated about ministry, than I ever have. I am very thankful for those who have dug deep in research of the early church and church history coming up to current day.

I read Drury's book. It is a good beginning place for those who are starting on a journey of learning about worship. Having read some the other things I listed and several more, I was hoping for more from him in helping us understand some of these deeper worship insights from a Wesleyan/Holiness perspective. There is very little out there on that subject so I have to contextualize most of what I study.

[Bruce Carriker]

I have been struggling with some of our "Wesleyan" forms of worship.

A year or so ago I picked up a reprint of Wesley's service book for Methodists in North America. Eye-opening, to say the least. I would suggest that there is virtually nothing "Wesleyan" in our forms of worship.

Lectionary-like (Book of Common Prayer) organization for the texts each week; corporate prayer; corporate confession; communion every Sunday. No, I'd say there's little Wesleyan about how we worship.

[William Hunter]

A year or so ago I picked up a reprint of Wesley's service book for Methodists in North America. Eye-opening, to say the least. I would suggest that there is virtually nothing "Wesleyan" in our forms of worship.

Lectionary-like (Book of Common Prayer) organization for the texts each week; corporate prayer; corporate confession; communion every Sunday. No, I'd say there's little Wesleyan about how we worship.

I assume you read this book. To add to the discussion here, how about sharing with us the insights you gained from this book about what a Wesleyan worship service involves, what goes on in that type of service. You made a statement of what you think it is not; I'd like to honestly have you share with us what a service in the spirit of Wesley looks like. It might add some more good fodder for our discussion on worship.

[John Kennedy]

I'm interested in a more general discussion concerning worship.

I had earlier asked about "special music" versus congregationals and do people feel like they are worshiping etc.

Among other responses Brad raised the question, how is the sermon "worship?"

This got me thinking about definitions of worship and the purpose of worship.

Book I've been reading had some interesting things to say:

"The point of historic Christian worship is to convey a sense of divine presence, indeed to usher believers into the presence of God.(Emphasis the authors. Campbell and Burn, Wesleyan Essentials in a Multicultural Society, Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2004, p. 89.)"


The authors also suggest (though speaking more specifically of Methodist Churches) that one of our problems today is that we have lost too much of the sacredness or reverence from our services. "But today's services, ...., seem to often characterized by a kind of casualness that suggests that participants do not really sense themselves to be in the presence of a holy mystery. (Ibid, p. 93)." He suggests part of our theology backfired. We believed and taught that all of life is sacred so that Sunday morning shouldn't be "more" sacred than any other time. Instead of elevating reverence the rest of the week, however, we reduced the awe of the worship service.

What are your thoughts on these ideas? What other thoughts do you have on the definition and/or purpose of worship and the state of worship in our churches today?

Wilson

Wilson -

Worship is a topic of vital importance. There is probably no single area of concern to the church where there is more sheer ignorance and misconception and general confusion. For a long time Evangelicals of the free church variety didn't seem to want to deal with it. It was something that would just happen without too much though or planning.

In fact, thought or planning was kind of suspect. And besides, wasn't worship planning one of those 'dead, downtown, mainline churches' sort of things that the truly 'Spirit-filled' didn't have to worry about. Worship wasn't that important - you had a 'song service' and preaching and if the two reinforced one anoher, you were blest.

Now things have shifted somewhat. I don't know whether it could be termed a full paradigm (sp?) shift, but things certainly aren't the way they were. Wo-ship is now the "in" thing. There are almost innumerable points of view about it - and nearly as many definitions thereof. To some it is simply music - there are even those who will divide a service into "worship" and "teaching". Evidently when the preacher starts talking, the worship is over. Then there are the ones who see all of life as worship - a point of view that essentially renders the term meaningless - broad, inclusive definitions have a way of doing that. Everybody's business is nobody's business.

There are some who esteem 'worship' so highly that it becomes a major part of the church's marketing program. From the point of view of this belliever in the centrality and essentiality of worship, thanks, but no thanks. From the point of view of those, myself included, who view worship as our effort to say to God how much we love and esteem Him, to use worship as an attendance building device is unworthy of the name. It puts us in the position of trying to use the approach to God as a vehicle for the achievement of our own ends. God is to use us for his purposes - not the reverse.

I realize I've probably opened pasture gates and am strolling among the sacred cows of 'church growth' and 'seeker sensitivity'. I've probably stepped on enough toes (or hooves) for now, so let me move on to what I think worship should be.

I didn't really set out to be interested in worship when I started out. I was very involved in music leadership and my primary concern was in how to enrich and improve church music. But along the way I came to understand that music was only one component of corporate worship, that the music, even of the highest quality, needed to be an integral part of worship - not must something to fill up time and get the congregation 'torqued up', as a pastor with whom I once worked, liked to term it.

So I started reading up on the subject - a lot. Some have referred to the Drury book (which I haven't read) and Robert Webber's works (most of which I have). Others would include a nujmber of excellent works by Donald Hustad
(Jubilate and the sequel to it) and quite a few others. (I would cite more titles, but most of my books are still packed up.)

I also began observing how worship was conducted in other traditions than the one in which I had been raised (Nazarene). I was fortunate enough, for a number of years, to have the opportunity of working with one of my pastors in weekly worship planning.

Worship does NOT just happen - it's not something we feel, it's not something that is produced by the 'worship environment'. It's something we
do on purpose. It isn't dependent on feelings of ecstasy - although I have participated in corporate worship when I certainly felt ecstatic. It isn't dependent on who else is there. It is something we do in order to express to God belief in His supreme worth. Sometimes we may experience great emotion with it - other times we simply know that we have presented to God our 'sacrifice of praise' and whatever he chooses to do with it is his business.
The validation of my worship is not predicated upon having a good feeling about my offering of praise - it simply rests on my having offered it. There is a song sung in some churhces as the offering is being brought forward for the prayer of dedication which begins with the phrase, "Bless thou the gifts our hands have brought...." and ends with the phrase, "The rest, O Lord, is in Thy hands."

In our worship planning we worked with this statement of intent: "we want our worship to be God-focused, Word-based, participatory and with a flow that reinforces and enhances the focus". One of the things that most strongly shaped our planning was Isaiah 6. Isaiah went to worship, he saw God, saw himself, was transformed and departed as God's messenger.

I think I've probably written enough for now. There may be more, especially of the nuts and bolts aspects of planning and resources used. Part of the church's being God's people is attempting to meet needs, of all kinds. But the worship of the living God is a need that ONLY the church is equipped to do. If in our worship we fail to create a setting in which the worshipper meets God, we have failed. Worship is not about meeting needs - it is about meeting God. If our worship facilitates that, God will meet the needs.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

One of the things that most strongly shaped our planning was Isaiah 6. Isaiah went to worship, he saw God, saw himself, was transformed and departed as God's messenger.

Now there's a sermon outline on worship if I ever saw one! I might just preach that outline in the not-to-distant future.

Wilson

[Ed Sherman]

When I am fully aware that God is in fact in me at all times I am humbled to the point of near-catatonia. It is an awesome realization that the One who created everything still cares enough to play a personal part in my own paltry existence. To be on such a plane at all times, for me, would be more than I could bear. Far better methinks to be able to worship in a formal setting at church or in fellowship while 'walking the walk' to the beat of my own meager faith. It has never occured to me to read a text on worshiping...other than the Bible. Of course, worship takes many forms and I am not saying it should, or can, only be practiced in a corporate setting. I guess I'm saying that the privelage of worship is so awesome in it's literal sense that we mere mortals need all the 'artifice' we've created just to practice it. Great thread!!

[William Hunter]

Another aspect we need to consider is that if Christians do not have intimate worship with Christ in their devotional time, then come Sunday they are usually the ones who complain that they do not get anything out of the services or have some other complaint, on a chronic basis.

Daily personal worship is an absolute must for us, even in those times of the dark night of the soul. In these 32 yrs. of ministry I have observed that those who are consistant in their daily personal worship of God/Christ are the ones who always seem to feel that they service was so moved power of God and they have flet His presence so strongly.

Another aspect here is similar to the fact that if we take in more calories than we burn off, we gain weight. If all we do is take in spiritual calories on Sunday, but do not have some kind of ministry in which to "burn them off," we become obese spiritually, resulting in little spiritual energy, a critical spirit, etc. God made us to need to do something with our intake of "spiritual calories," gained in SS, worship, Christian reading, etc. He made us to do good works once we have our faith and relationship with Him grounded. If worship is all we do then we usually end up useless for the kingdom, and critical in spirit.

[Gina Stevenson]

A mouthful, Mr. Hunter! (er, Rev. Hunter)

Especially that about the giving out, not just taking in. Did more out west, but came back here, crashed emotionally, so it was hard getting myself out to help others, seeming to hardly be able to help myself (returning to MI was a dubious thing, I guess).

Anyway, in recent months, I decided on ESL rather than BSF -- speaking "initially" ;) -- seems that helping with ESL (English as a 2nd language) rather than attending BSF (Bible Study Fellowship Int'l) again has helped, as I don't feel "useless" ... tho' it's sometimes a chore psyching myself up to get out in the winter weather to get there.

gina, who got spoiled enough out west that I can't take MI winters.
BBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrr !!! :rolleyes: :eek: :cool:


Another aspect we need to consider is that if Christians do not have intimate worship with Christ in their devotional time, then come Sunday they are usually the ones who complain that they do not get anything out of the services or have some other complaint, on a chronic basis.

Daily personal worship is an absolute must for us, even in those times of the dark night of the soul. In these 32 yrs. of ministry I have observed that those who are consistant in their daily personal worship of God/Christ are the ones who always seem to feel that they service was so moved power of God and they have flet His presence so strongly.

Another aspect here is similar to the fact that if we take in more calories than we burn off, we gain weight. If all we do is take in spiritual calories on Sunday, but do not have some kind of ministry in which to "burn them off," we become obese spiritually, resulting in little spiritual energy, a critical spirit, etc. God made us to need to do something with our intake of "spiritual calories," gained in SS, worship, Christian reading, etc. He made us to do good works once we have our faith and relationship with Him grounded. If worship is all we do then we usually end up useless for the kingdom, and critical in spirit.

[Bruce Carriker]

Another aspect we need to consider is that if Christians do not have intimate worship with Christ in their devotional time, then come Sunday they are usually the ones who complain that they do not get anything out of the services or have some other complaint, on a chronic basis...

If worship is all we do then we usually end up useless for the kingdom, and critical in spirit.

Two thoughts here, Wm. First, AMEN and AMEN to the first part.

With regards to the second, "If worship is all we do..." Perhaps we're contending for a term, but I think that ALL WE DO is worship. The problem for me, and for many, I think, is coming to the point that we understand that taking the meal to the shut-in, or sharing our testimony in a Tuesday morning prison ministry group, or praying with the neighbor whose spouse/child/parent is hospitalized, or mowing the elderly lady's lawn, etc, etc...are ALL forms of worship.

We hear a lot of talk about "sacramental living" and I'm not sure I ever fully get my brain around EVERYTHING that entails. But I think much of it is simply understanding that I offer my life to God as my act of worship every day. Sometimes he may use that gift in an obviously spiritual way...leading a small group, witnessing to a kid in jail, etc. Other times he may use it in a way that looks completely non-spiritual...stopping to help someone change a flat tire...but is our modern day version of offering a cool drink to a thirsty traveler, or caring for the man left by the side of the road.

[Bruce Carriker]

I assume you read this book. To add to the discussion here, how about sharing with us the insights you gained from this book about what a Wesleyan worship service involves, what goes on in that type of service. You made a statement of what you think it is not; I'd like to honestly have you share with us what a service in the spirit of Wesley looks like. It might add some more good fodder for our discussion on worship.

That was my intent when I posted this...Lectionary-like (Book of Common Prayer) organization for the texts each week; corporate prayer; corporate confession; communion every Sunday.

However, since its in the public domain, I'll post some more stuff here later. I'll post a warning with it, as it is liable to be lengthy.

[William Hunter]

Two thoughts here, Wm. First, AMEN and AMEN to the first part.

With regards to the second, "If worship is all we do..." Perhaps we're contending for a term, but I think that ALL WE DO is worship. The problem for me, and for many, I think, is coming to the point that we understand that taking the meal to the shut-in, or sharing our testimony in a Tuesday morning prison ministry group, or praying with the neighbor whose spouse/child/parent is hospitalized, or mowing the elderly lady's lawn, etc, etc...are ALL forms of worship.

We hear a lot of talk about "sacramental living" and I'm not sure I ever fully get my brain around EVERYTHING that entails. But I think much of it is simply understanding that I offer my life to God as my act of worship every day. Sometimes he may use that gift in an obviously spiritual way...leading a small group, witnessing to a kid in jail, etc. Other times he may use it in a way that looks completely non-spiritual...stopping to help someone change a flat tire...but is our modern day version of offering a cool drink to a thirsty traveler, or caring for the man left by the side of the road.

Biblically you are right, Bruce. Scripture tells us that whatever we do, we do it to Christ. Going out in the cold and snow and starting my wife's car and scraping her windows so that she has a warm car to head off to her teaching position is an act of worship. So are the countless hours spent caring for my ill mother instead of sticking her in a nursing home somewhere where it is highly likely that she would not get good care. So was my acts of love and care to my daughters and now my granddaughters, etc. We all have also been given at least one spiritual gift to use in some kind of ministry for Christ. he intends for us to use that gift for Him. To know it and not use it seems to be sin to me, an act of omission. Being a good employee, a student who honestly does their best, when done for Christ are acts of worship---and also using up our "spiritual calories" gained in our private and public worship as the church gathers for worship.

I think we need to spend some more time exploring this subject here on NN. We're not saved to sit, but to glorify Christ in all we do---and a proof of our salvation are those works for Christ. This all is an awesome subject, isn't it? We could have some "fun" if many Naznetters would join in, and in the process all of us gain some food for thought to help be better servants of our gracious and caring God.

[John Kennedy]

Both Bruce and Bill mentioned sacramental living. I am in wholehearted agreement that we need to live out our faith. But, I mentioned that part of the problem with incorporating the merit of sacramental living into discussions of the kind we're conducting here is that it serves to distract from the original subject - that what takes place in corporate worship has a lot to do with our being able to be God's people.

Coroporate worship is the one thing that the church offers that can't be found anywhere else. Opportunities for fellowship, counsel, service to others, etc., can all be found elsewhere. But the opportunity for corporate worship is unique to the church.

I'm not saying we can't come into the presence of the living God outside the sanctuary. But the time spent in corporate worship is simply too limited to waste any of it on other things.

I've been in services where they did just about everything under the sun but give the worshipper an opportunity to concentrate on God. Possibly many of you have experienced the same thing. This is why I talked about 'God-focused, Word-based', participatory and flowing worship.

I agree with Bill's contention that corporate worship would be greatly improved if people prepared for it during the week. But that's all the more reason for making sure that corporate worship stays on track - that people don't leave wondering what that hour was all about.

One of the purposes of corporate worship is that it provides an opportunity for Christians to be reminded of things too easily forgotten. We live in increasingly hectic worlds. We simply have too, too much on our plates. There are a multitude of things (some good, some not so good) clamoring for our attention. That's why focus is so important.

I fear that sometimes we unwittingly create the impression that ' praise and adoration-rich' corporate worship and sacramental living are an either/or thing. They are not. It's a both/and thing. Corporate worship should be the 'feeding station' for the journey of sacramental living. Living sacramentally means giving, giving, giving. But prolonged giving of self to others without the replenishment of corporate worship ultimately leads to a kind of 'spiritual burnout' that can negate a lot of sacramental living.

I've really liked what Bill and others have been doing in educating their people in what corporate worship is and how to do it. Worship has some intuitive aspects, but it is primarily learned behavior. I"ve seen churches that made a big deal of offering life-skills training to their people - a fine idea. Time management, financial education, stewardship, etc. are fine. How about some direct instruction in how to come to God in worship.

I think it's interesting that Isaiah's transforming encounter with God was in the context of a purposeful, focused encounter.

[William Hunter]

Both Bruce and Bill mentioned sacramental living. I am in wholehearted agreement that we need to live out our faith. But, I mentioned that part of the problem with incorporating the merit of sacramental living into discussions of the kind we're conducting here is that it serves to distract from the original subject - that what takes place in corporate worship has a lot to do with our being able to be God's people.

Coroporate worship is the one thing that the church offers that can't be found anywhere else. Opportunities for fellowship, counsel, service to others, etc., can all be found elsewhere. But the opportunity for corporate worship is unique to the church.

I'm not saying we can't come into the presence of the living God outside the sanctuary. But the time spent in corporate worship is simply too limited to waste any of it on other things.

I've been in services where they did just about everything under the sun but give the worshipper an opportunity to concentrate on God. Possibly many of you have experienced the same thing. This is why I talked about 'God-focused, Word-based', participatory and flowing worship.

I agree with Bill's contention that corporate worship would be greatly improved if people prepared for it during the week. But that's all the more reason for making sure that corporate worship stays on track - that people don't leave wondering what that hour was all about.

One of the purposes of corporate worship is that it provides an opportunity for Christians to be reminded of things too easily forgotten. We live in increasingly hectic worlds. We simply have too, too much on our plates. There are a multitude of things (some good, some not so good) clamoring for our attention. That's why focus is so important.

I fear that sometimes we unwittingly create the impression that ' praise and adoration-rich' corporate worship and sacramental living are an either/or thing. They are not. It's a both/and thing. Corporate worship should be the 'feeding station' for the journey of sacramental living. Living sacramentally means giving, giving, giving. But prolonged giving of self to others without the replenishment of corporate worship ultimately leads to a kind of 'spiritual burnout' that can negate a lot of sacramental living.

I've really liked what Bill and others have been doing in educating their people in what corporate worship is and how to do it. Worship has some intuitive aspects, but it is primarily learned behavior. I"ve seen churches that made a big deal of offering life-skills training to their people - a fine idea. Time management, financial education, stewardship, etc. are fine. How about some direct instruction in how to come to God in worship.

I think it's interesting that Isaiah's transforming encounter with God was in the context of a purposeful, focused encounter.

I agree, John. There is nothing that can replace corporate worship. That is the the prime function of the gathering of God's people. I do not believe a congregation can become all that God intends it to be without such. And worship is not Bible study, training in how to do finances, etc. It is connecting with God and bringing praise and honor to Him. The other things we do such as Bible study, budget training, or any other kind of training and equipping for service (Eph. 4:11-16) that brings the congregation to maturity in Christ should be done outside of worship.

Most of the time, since we most often seat people so they only see the back of each other's heads, they do not see much of the movement of God reflected in people faces. We have tried to rearrange our seating to allow our people to see more of each other's faces. Since our platform is moveable as is almost everything in the building, we have moved that out and moved me right down in the into the seating area. I have a stool there to sit on and I stand and sit as I feel like it. Many of my points and other things in my message I want my be to actually see, are projected up behind me. Even seated as they all are now, they can still those items and our projected music, etc. This arrangement has added a sense of togetherness that is really neat and boy, do my people like it. They have stated many times that this new seating arrangement has gotten rid of the feel of separation from me and the Word, and put us and the Word in a place where we are more accessable (I have not used a pulpit for 5-6 yrs. now). I do have a lecturn to put my notes and Bible on, but it is small and does not get in the way.

I know that some of these ideas are just movement of furniture and space, but some of the things we do can enhance the sense of worship and help make the setting more conducive to worship. We have a space that is used in many ways six days a week, so we have tried to make that space seem like a worshipful space on Sunday mornings. I have been amazed again and again at how the current arrangement of seeing each other's faces and putting me right in congregation as I preach has helped my congregation with their attitude of worship. Simpe things to be sure, but they have added much benefit to us as a congregation.

I also use a small group of my people as readers of Scripture, occasionally a poem, during worship. It is another attempt to help them all feel a part of the act of worship and that it is not just a function of the "professional clergy." I lead in prayer, stand to receive the offering, trying to make it an act of worship, andwhen I preach.

My wife (our Dir. of Music) and I spend a lot of time putting together our worship service. Lately, I have been wondering about including some of our Praise Team singers and musicians in that process, and maybe a small number of others and see how that goes. Somehow I think that including some of our people in planning the worship service and having them thinking about how we worship, might enhance even further, our sense of awe and worship of God. It takes time to plan a really good worship service and that was not as easy as it is now until my laypeople began to pick up more and more of the pastoral care and ministry functions that take place between the Sundays. but according to Eph. 4:11-16, that is the way it should be. It also gives me more time to pray and study in preparation for presenting the Word in worship, as well as time to think about our vision and mission and how we become more effective at doing what God called us to be and do here in our area.

It's not all perfect by any stretch of the imagination---and as with anything, we refine and refine to make it all it can be, but I am enjoying leading worship more than ever over these 32 yrs. of ministry. Something I have mentioned before on NN is that I hear too many of my fellow pastors at or near my age of 59 talk about just coasting so they can make it to retirement. It seems they have lost the thrill and sense of call of ministry in some ways. And that seems to lead to low level energy in leadership, dreaming, worship leadership, etc. We have a large group of Nazarenes prayng for revival in our church but I do not believe that will happen until there is a revival of the sense of call for too many of our pastors. Maybe that is telling us something about a low level personal devotional life and a daily practice of real worship of god in their own lives. I'm not sure but I do wonder...

[John Kennedy]

I'm interested in a more general discussion concerning worship.

I had earlier asked about "special music" versus congregationals and do people feel like they are worshiping etc.

Among other responses Brad raised the question, how is the sermon "worship?"

This got me thinking about definitions of worship and the purpose of worship.

Book I've been reading had some interesting things to say:

"The point of historic Christian worship is to convey a sense of divine presence, indeed to usher believers into the presence of God.(Emphasis the authors. Campbell and Burn, Wesleyan Essentials in a Multicultural Society, Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2004, p. 89.)"


The authors also suggest (though speaking more specifically of Methodist Churches) that one of our problems today is that we have lost too much of the sacredness or reverence from our services. "But today's services, ...., seem to often characterized by a kind of casualness that suggests that participants do not really sense themselves to be in the presence of a holy mystery. (Ibid, p. 93)." He suggests part of our theology backfired. We believed and taught that all of life is sacred so that Sunday morning shouldn't be "more" sacred than any other time. Instead of elevating reverence the rest of the week, however, we reduced the awe of the worship service.

What are your thoughts on these ideas? What other thoughts do you have on the definition and/or purpose of worship and the state of worship in our churches today?

Wilson

There's a good case to be made that the 'loss of reverence' in worship is a wound that is, partially and unwittingly, self-inflicted. In our evangelistic zeal to identify with those we're trying to reach, we lost the concept of 'sacred time and space'.

We seek to show how contemporary and 'with it' we are and lose some of the special 'otherness' that sets worship apart from other gatherings. I'm not sure we gain anything in the long run by attempting to blur the line between sacred and secular - a move that'll inevitably come back to bite us.

I've heard criticism of traditional worship practices because they're so strikingly different from what the seeker is used to. That they can't relate to it. Do they really think seekers are that dumb? I've watched churches that, in the name of seeker sensitivity would try to shed any and all churchly aspects of worship. No crosses, no symbolism, etc. That kind of thing is essentially a waste of time. Have you ever known anyone who went to church and didn't know where they were?

Why can't the church be upfront and say "this place is special, this time is special. We're here for only one reason - to worship God. We do some things that have, over time, helped us keep our focus on worshipping God. We're not here to engage in 'bait-and-switch' marketing. We think the public worship of God is an essential for our relationship with Him and we welcome you to join with us, encounter HIm and let Him and change your life."

"The music's different from what they're used to hearing." Do we really think seekers, even the young, are so 'monochromatic' in their tastes that they won't tolerate anything that's different. Funny, I'd always heard it was the young who were open to diversity and the old codgers were the ones who were so rejecting of variety. I think sometimes this view of seekers may be shaped more by the point of view of some worship leaders than by the actual views of those we're trying to reach.

There is yet another aspect. Traditional worship has been, to some, a rather boring and meaningless thing. They don't understand why we do what we do. Lack of planning, and sometimes denigration of planning, has resulted in worship that didn't seem to have much relevance. But instead of educating people about what we do and why, it's been easier to discard the whole thing and wing it. I still maintain time spent learning about worship and its elements and components is well worth it.

I think a lot of the problem has been pretty well diagnosed. What to do about it is another matter. In an earlier post I talked about worship that was "God-focused, Word-based, participatory and flowing". How does that flesh out?

'God-focused: the music, the Scripture, the setting, the whole liturgy is purposefully aimed at one objective, bringing the congregation into the presence of God. Having worshipped in churches of a number of different traditions, I come away with one observation - too many preachers have too much to say apart from the sermon. Cut the chatter. Let the words of the minister or worship leader be focused on the reason for being there - to see the Lord and exalt Him.

"Word-based": the lectionary is invaluable for this. Even if you don't choose to base the preaching program on it, the Psalms and lessons can furnish a coherent theme for worship.


(Allow me to digress here: I have used the term liturgy several times. By 'liturgy' I mean the accepted customs and practices for the conduct of worship. EVERY CHURCH HAS A LITURGY! Some, like Episcopalians and Lutherans, have it written down in a book. Some, like Baptists and Nazarenes and others, have it memorized. Generally the more emphatic churches are in denying having a liturgy, the better they have theirs memorized. Even, to their dismay, charismatic and contemporary churches have their own liturgy to which they seem to be doggedly devoted. Ironically, the written ones are more amenable to change and adaptation than the memorized ones.)

Participatory - the congregation is part of the action. Responsive or congregational readings, musical responses, congregational singing etc. help to reduce the danger of worshippers becoming an audience of spectators.

Focus-enhancing flow - Corporate worship has been characterized as a drama with an audience of one - God. The congregants are the actors and the minister/worship leader/musicians (choral and instrumental) are the prompters. It's important to see the difference between a drama and a variety show. A drama goes from one point to another in order to tell a story. A variety show is simply a succession of acts that may or may not be related. Worship time is too valuable to waste - we need to focus on telling the story.

Now I, admittedly, worship in a more structured, traditional setting. That's who I am. I feel most at home, emotionally and temperamentally in such a worship setting. But the approach I've been talking about can work well in
contemporary as well as traditional settings. It's not a big church - small church thing. It's adaptable to both.

I hope I haven't been too wordy. Corporate worship is a subject that's very close to my heart. I suppose one could maintain a vital relationship to God without a corporate worship setting - I just can't figure out why on earth anyone would want to.

Your response and dialog will be greatly appreciated.

[Bruce Carriker]

I think John hit on a huge factor when he mentioned the loss of reverence. I once heard it described this way:

We used to come into the holy of holies in awe and reverence. Now we come to God's family room to hang out.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

... , we lost the concept of 'sacred time and space'.

In our setting "sacred space" is especially difficult. We worship in a middle school cafeteria. We arrive and work like beavers to get sound, video, etc. all set up before the service. When we are it is hard to suddenly feel like you are in a sacred space.

We seek to show how contemporary and 'with it' we are and lose some of the special 'otherness' that sets worship apart from other gatherings. I'm not sure we gain anything in the long run by attempting to blur the line between sacred and secular - a move that'll inevitably come back to bite us.

Do we confuse "with it" with relevence? We need to continually find ways to maintain a sense of reverence while also being relevent (contemporary). It's not an easy chore.


.... Why can't the church be upfront and say "this place is special, this time is special. We're here for only one reason - to worship God. We do some things that have, over time, helped us keep our focus on worshipping God. ...

The same could probably be said about at least some of our language. I think it would be OK to use SOME special church/Biblical terms. But when we do we can't assume they are automatically understood. We must stop and define or explain them. For example, I almost always referred to the opening prayer as "Opening Prayer," because, "Invocation," sounded antiquated and stuffy and the truly unchurched wouldn't know what it meant. However, why not say, "Please join me in standing for our Invocation. Our Invocation is our time of prayer when we 'invoke' or seek God's presence in our service, etc."

... I talked about worship that was "God-focused, Word-based, participatory and flowing". How does that flesh out?
....

Great discussion of those four elements! We should use them a check-list of sorts as we complete service planning each week.

I liked what Leonard Sweet said at the M3 Conference. Not an exact quote but he said something like, "I used to write sermons. Now I design worship experiences."

I think that is what we all need to be doing.

Wilson

[Mark Metcalfe]

I once heard it described this way:

We used to come into the holy of holies in awe and reverence. Now we come to God's family room to hang out.

That's the sound bite I was looking for. "What a Friend We Have in Jesus,"
is a great tune, but too often we have forgotten what a God we have in
this same Jesus.

Thanks.

MM

[Billy Cox]

I think John hit on a huge factor when he mentioned the loss of reverence. I once heard it described this way:

We used to come into the holy of holies in awe and reverence. Now we come to God's family room to hang out.

In ancient Israel, nobody gathered in the holy of holies at all.

[Bruce Carriker]

Okay, so the guy who said it wasn't real good on his OT theology. It still doesn't change the point he was trying to make.

[John Kennedy]

Wilson -

Can certainly appreciate the difficulties of creating sacred space 'on the fly'.
Maybe a table with a cross or Bible and a couple of banners on stands might help. Anyway, bless you for making the effort.

When I used the four-fold criteria (God-focused, Word-based, participatory, and flowing) I should have also emphasized that it's not a case of four equal components. Focus is the primary objective - the other three serve to facilitate it. Word-based speaks to content, participatory speaks to trying to involve as many as possible in lifting their view upward, and flow, of course, relates to telling the story coherently and with a minimum of distraction. Not an easy task, but IMO well worth it.

Your point is well taken about church terminology (invocation as opposed to opening prayer). I like the idea of explaining it. Too often there is a tendency, if we think something might not be understood, to simply discard it. IMO that's laziness personified. "But the people might not undertstand it."
Well, teaching is part of the church's ministry. What could possibly be more relevant than teaching Christians ways of worship that will enhance the divine-human encounter. In any area of education the name of the game is to start wherever the student is a move from there - not passively bemoan their lack of knowledge.
I wouold reiterate that the above approach can be effective regardless of whether we're talking traditional or contemporary, large of small group.

May God bless your ministry.