Bell, Rob - Velvet Elvis

[Jeremy D. Scott]

It may be hard to categorize this book. I'll list a few categories: theology, non-fiction, apologetics. It may even be seen as a collection of sermons. It certainly is empassioned, well thought out, well-researched, and easily read. The only reason I hesitate to use the word "theology" when speaking of the book is that I don't want people who think they can't read theology books to skip by this book. Anyone can read this book. (And I think many should.)

Published by Zondervan and here is their website (http://www.zondervan.com/Books/Detail.asp?ISBN=031026345X) on the book.

If you would like to read an excerpt, click here (http://www.zondervan.com/Books/verbiage.asp?ISBN=031026345X&Type=1000). This is actually the beginning of the book. Bell often returns to this image of the trampoline.

I'm not sure how to review the book. I usually avoid proof-texting these days (pulling a single statement out of a book and using it to make a point) because it can lead people astray out of context. But I will here. The statements I've selected will at least give a taste of Bell's writing style and heart.

"Doctrine is a wonderful servant and a horrible master." (page 025)
I'm pretty sure I've heard statements like this before. But Bell's context in the first chapter is that we use and abuse doctrine these days to the detriment of ourselves and our (God's) message.

"God is bigger than the Christian faith." (page 027)
A statement that may seem profound at first, but I believe is true. Bell asks us to look at the Christian faith as a growing and emerging thing. A question for reflection from me is: Does God grow? Do we play a part in who God is?

"So the invitation to jump is an invitation to follow Jesus with all of our doubts and questions right there with us." (page 028)
This is in relation to the trampoline as an image for the Christian faith. Inviting someone to join this Christian faith is: ...the statement above. One of his points is that to "accept Christ" is not to have it all figured out. To accept Christ is not an act that prerequisites that someone have their life in line and perfect.

"God has spoken and the rest is commentary." (a number of times)
This is one statement with which I still have questions. I believe that what we say is certainly commentary...I'm just not sure that God has finally spoken. He has said, but he has more to say.

Of the Bible (individual verses):
"They aren't isolated statements that float, unattached, out in space." (page 062)
I have felt this way for a long time now. Can we please stop throwing individual phrases from the Bible at people thinking that the act of doing so will dramatically change their lives? I think St. Francis of Assisi said something to the effect of my feelings here. I'll let you Google for it. I'm sure it's his most-quoted phrase.

"Jesus is the arrangement. Jesus is the design. Jesus is the intelligence. For a Christian, Jesus' teachings aren't to be followed because they are a nice way to live a moral life. They are to be followed because they are the best possible insight into how the world really works. They teach us how things are." (page 083)
Let me couple this with the statement above about how God is bigger than the Christian faith. Jesus is God and I also believe is bigger than the Christian faith. Then how can I (or anyone else) think we have Christ completely figured out? I can't. Christ is bigger than me. I am his servant and as a minister of his gospel, I always have to keep an open mind to different ideas of what he has done, what he is doing, and what he will do.

"Christian is a great noun and a poor adjective." (page 084)
WOOHOO!!! Go ROB! Just because someone - you, me, CBD, TBN, Pat Robertson, a denomination, or anyone else - labels something "Christian" does not mean that it is "following Christ." Let's be careful, people. Just the same, just because something is not labelled Christian does not mean that it does not fall in line with Christ. Or, just because an individual claims the title of "Christian" does not mean that they are following Christ in what they say or what they do.

Of missionaries (or other ministers) talking about "taking Jesus" to a certain place:
"I would ask them if people in China and India and Chicago are eating and laughing and enjoying things and generally being held together? Because if they are, then Jesus, in a way that is difficult to fully articulate, is already present there." (page 088)
Just an interesting thought. I'll not make commentary right now.

"The thought of the word church and the word marketing in the same sentence makes me sick." (page 099)
Can we stop paralleling the church (local OR general) with the business world, please?

"It is possible to be saved and miserable." (page 110)
Very true.

"I am institutionally challenged." (page 150)
I empathize.

"Heaven is full of forgiven people.

Hell is full of forgiven people.

Heaven is full of people God loves, whom Jesus died for.

Hell is is full of people God loves, whom Jesus died for.

The difference is how we choose to live, which story we choose to live in, which version of reality we trust.

Ours or Gods." (page 146)
Wow. This resonates with how the character in McLaren's book (A New Kind of Christian), named Neo, talks about heaven and hell. A regular poster on Naznet has a great quote from Neo regarding this...

I could say a lot more, but I'll just say this for now: Read the book.

[Gina Stevenson]

Of missionaries (or other ministers) talking about "taking Jesus" to a certain place:
"I would ask them if people in China and India and Chicago are eating and laughing and enjoying things and generally being held together? Because if they are, then Jesus, in a way that is difficult to fully articulate, is already present there." (page 088)
Just an interesting thought. I'll not make commentary right now.

Yes! We're told that everything is created and "held together" by Christ in Colossians 1:15-17, so He must be there, as they're not imploding ... exploding ... disintegrating ... whatever. Funny how this is one thing we sometimes forget, huh?

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I've been in Rob Bell's church twice and heard him preach on both of those occassions. His church is awesome and he is a very gifted speaker. He spoke long, used some Greek words and everything and STILL kept everyone's attention. He was also very animated. For example as he described how they used to lounge on cushions for meals, he lounged on cushions on the platform.

If he writes like he preaches this will be a good book. I'm looking forward to reading it.

Wilson

[Ron Davis]

I've been in Rob Bell's church twice and heard him preach on both of those occassions. His church is awesome and he is a very gifted speaker. He spoke long, used some Greek words and everything and STILL kept everyone's attention. He was also very animated. For example as he described how they used to lounge on cushions for meals, he lounged on cushions on the platform.

If he writes like he preaches this will be a good book. I'm looking forward to reading it.

Wilson
Have you checked out his DVDs. They are about 11 minutes long and sell for $10 each. My favorites so far are Dust and Rain.

They can be found at www.nooma.com

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Have you checked out his DVDs. They are about 11 minutes long and sell for $10 each. My favorites so far are Dust and Rain.

They can be found at www.nooma.com

Yes, they are very good and I hear of more and more people (Nazarenes) using them.

[Jeff Scott]

I really liked this book.

For a while now, there have there have been things that I have observed about the church or Christians that have made me think "They just don't get it" or "They miss the point". However, I have had a difficult time articulating exactly what I meant. In this book, Rob Bell articulates pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

Bell does a terrific job of showing how we can mis-interpret the Bible by placing too much faith in our modern day language. I love the way he explains what the authors were trying to communicate when the books comprising the Bible were actually written and how we need to understand their intended meaning and not make it mean what we want it to mean. You know what I mean?

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I've not read this one yet, but from what you say it sounds like Bell has spent some time with Dr. Oliver (Neo). :rolleyes:

Leadership (the journal) Fall 2005 issue has an article by Bell titled, "Storage Room Meltdown." If you haven't read it but can get your hands on it without too much trouble it is a good read.

The article is autobiographical. I especially loved this line, "The next morning I had a staff meeting. Which means I sat in my office and thought to myself...." That's the kind of staff meetings I have! :fav18

Wilson

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I've not read this one yet, but from what you say it sounds like Bell has spent some time with Dr. Oliver (Neo). :rolleyes:

Leadership (the journal) Fall 2005 issue has an article by Bell titled, "Storage Room Meltdown." If you haven't read it but can get your hands on it without too much trouble it is a good read.

The article is autobiographical. I especially loved this line, "The next morning I had a staff meeting. Which means I sat in my office and thought to myself...." That's the kind of staff meetings I have!:fav18

Wilson

Wilson -

That article in Leadership is actually verbatim from a chapter in the book.

Also, yes, Rob Bell has had interaction with Neo in McLaren's A New Kind of Christian. In this article (click here) (http://www.culture-makers.com/articles/the_emergent_mystique), Bell's wife, Kristen, states that the book was their "lifeboat."

- J

[Jeff Scott]

I just spoke with one of my Emerson College Students. I had become aware that he was a Christian this past Wednesday. Today I asked him what he was doing for the summer and he told me that he was going to be working at a camp in Michigan. I asked him if he had ever been to Mars Hill. As it turns out, it's his home church. He says Rob Bell is an amazing man to hear preach. He had difficulty describing his style, but it is evident that he is loved.

[Gina Stevenson]

I just spoke with one of my Emerson College Students. I had become aware that he was a Christian this past Wednesday. Today I asked him what he was doing for the summer and he told me that he was going to be working at a camp in Michigan. I asked him if he had ever been to Mars Hill. As it turns out, it's his home church. He says Rob Bell is an amazing man to hear preach. He had difficulty describing his style, but it is evident that he is loved.

Hmmm ... wonder if they have some Sat PM service [it's about 7-8 mi from here (Wyoming) over in Grandville] ... evenings are the time I can easier borrow a vehicle, as mom doesn't drive at night. Would just visit, not leave where I'm at on Sunday evenings in small group, Wednesday ESL, etc.

[Bob Evans]

As one who use to work the church pr circut for the rescue mission in Rob Bell's town I have mixed feelings about his ministry. His numbers are amazing and I beleive he is doing great things for the Kingdom. But it's a little bit disconcerting to have a leading evangelical preacher avoid the question as to weather Jesus was the only way to heaven in the Local news paper with the comment I am "still struggling with that truth".

Perhaps I am not "emergenty" enough to get it but I think there are times that the people need a little bit more certainty in their faith than he offers in his message. In my mind he throws the baby out with the bath water a little to much.

Many people have accepted beleif without question and thats wrong. However, to malign those who have reached conclusions as part of the problem is equally as wrong.

While I worked for the mission I gave a talk on homelessness in his mothers college classes on social problems. When I found out she was his mother I compliment her on how God was using her son. And she proceeded to say thanks and then catiloge all his common grammer mistakes in the sermon. that has nothing to do with the book. I just found it funny.

[Jeff Scott]

Bob,

Have you read Velvet Elvis? If not, I hope you do. Bell explains his position (which really isn't a position at all) well.

Let me just say this. In Velvet Elvis Rob Bell articulates pretty much everything I have been thinking about Christianity for the past 3 years. I will not take the time now to respond to your post in full. (I have an early flight to CA tomorrow.) I don't believe this is the forum. I will likely start another thread in either the General Discussion forum or the theology forum. It will be long, but will describe my journey and how I have arrived at a position which questions Jesus as being the only way to Heaven- which I believe he is, but differently than has been described in the past.

[Gina Stevenson]

As one who use to work the church pr circut for the rescue mission in Rob Bell's town I have mixed feelings about his ministry. His numbers are amazing and I beleive he is doing great things for the Kingdom. But it's a little bit disconcerting to have a leading evangelical preacher avoid the question as to weather Jesus was the only way to heaven in the Local news paper with the comment I am "still struggling with that truth".

You're kidding, Bob! Did he really say that ... or was the context something where it could be mistaken for wondering about Jesus being "the only way." If so, I'm saddened.

While I worked for the mission I gave a talk on homelessness in his mothers college classes on social problems. When I found out she was his mother I compliment her on how God was using her son. And she proceeded to say thanks and then catiloge all his common grammer mistakes in the sermon. that has nothing to do with the book. I just found it funny.

This is sad, too ... not actually funny [but then perhaps if you'd not lived it, it might be, eh?]. He seems to be doing a lot right, but his mother finds the one thing he doesn't, and picks, picks, picks at it ... know the feeling, sadly [tho' it's not my grammar; just not "perfect"].

Finally, you say, "when I worked for the mission ..." Didn't know you no longer did. Hmmmmmm ....

[Bob Evans]

Jeff

Have you read Velvet Elvis? If not, I hope you do. Bell explains his position (which really isn't a position at all) well.

Yes I read the book and his explanation of Jesus being the only way to heaven was done well. And had he used the explanation in the newspaper It would have been fine. But he did not and I question the wosdom of not doing so about this important passage.Let me just say this. In Velvet Elvis Rob Bell articulates pretty much everything I have been thinking about Christianity for the past 3 years. I will not take the time now to respond to your post in full. (I have an early flight to CA tomorrow.) I don't believe this is the forum. I will likely start another thread in either the General Discussion forum or the theology forum. It will be long, but will describe my journey and how I have arrived at a position which questions Jesus as being the only way to Heaven- which I believe he is, but differently than has been described in the past.[/QUOTE]

I appreciate the book and the ministry his church is having in the community. I raised the questions I raised because of conversation I had with former church members as wel as seeing the responce to his comments played out in our local letter to the editor.
He's doing good work in his church and is ministering to a generation of people who need Jesus. But as one who works regularily with aduts finding a way out of substance abuse I have not directed people to his church because of an intence need for certainty in their lives.

I am looking forward to your Velvel Elvis post.i

Bob

[Bob Evans]

Gina I still work for the mission in a different capacity.

I read nothing into Mrs. Bells responce except having a mother that's an english teacher.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I will likely start another thread in either the General Discussion forum or the theology forum.

Jeff,

There is a thread on the Theology board titled, Exclusivity of Jesus, which deals with this topic. (I know this because I started the thread....)

I look forward to reading what you've got to say. Perhaps that thead would be a good place to post!

Wilson

[Jamie Wayne]

I just read the first 35 pages, and so far I think it is excellent.

[Gina Stevenson]

I read nothing into Mrs. Bells responce except having a mother that's an english teacher.

Well, actually, don't know if I tho't you did, or not; it was just me and my own perception of her pointing out his grammatical errors, colored by my own background where criticism was waaay too prevalent. That's all.

Anyway --- how much longer than when this thread was started now ;) --- have wondered once in a great while re checking out this dude's church some Saturday night, since they do meet then, too, right (unless that's changed?), just to see what he's all about, since I've not seen the book. Grandville's not all that far from here ... probably 6-7 miles, or less out there (it's in the old Grand Village Mall, right?).

[Hans Deventer]

I just read the first 35 pages, and so far I think it is excellent.

I've just ordered it.

[Jamie Wayne]

I'm on page 103 now...I may end up reading this whole book in one sitting.

Hans, I think that you'll like it.

I still think that it is quite excellent.

Earlier tonight I read about 20 pages out loud to my girlfriend, and she was seriously digging it.

I must say, this book works VERY well being read out loud.

Let me know what you think, Hans. I'm very interested in your opinion of this book.

[Hans Deventer]

Let me know what you think, Hans. I'm very interested in your opinion of this book.

I will. First I'll finish Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. It's nice to read something non-theological for a change, though Scott D. just tried to take that joy from me :basic05

[Jamie Wayne]

From page 108:

"The point of the cross isn't forgiveness. Forgiveness leads to something much bigger: restoration. God isn't just interested in the covering over of our sins; God wants to make us into the people we were originally created to be. It is not just the removal of what's being held against us; it is God pulling us into the people he originally had in mind when he made us. This restoration is why Jesus always orients his message around becoming the kind of people who are generous and loving and compassionate. The goal here isn't simply to not sin. Our purpose is to increase the shalom in this world, which is why approaches to the Christian faith that deal solely with not sinning always fail. They aim at the wrong thing. It is not about what you don't do. The point is becoming more and more the people God had in mind when we were first created. It is one thing to be forgiven; it is another thing to become more and more and more and more the person God made you to be.

Let me take this further: if we only have a legal-transaction understanding of salvation in which we are forgiven of our sins so we can go to heaven, then salvation essentially becomes a ticket to somewhere else. In this understanding, eternity is something that kicks in when we die. Jesus did not teach this."

[Jamie Wayne]

Done.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

[Ryan Scott]

I must say, this book works VERY well being read out loud.

A lot of it is adapted from sermons, so it makes sense that it works out loud. There's some things he includes in his nooma video series as well, which are also awesome.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm on page 103 now...I may end up reading this whole book in one sitting.

Hans, I think that you'll like it.

Having reached page 32, I agree.

[Hans Deventer]

I finished the book last night. Read Jeremy's review again and there is little I can or want to add, apart from: this is the kind of faith I'm looking for. I love this repaint job.

[Jamie Wayne]

Somehow I just knew that you'd like it, Hans...LOL. :)

btw - I picked up "Relational Holiness" and "Theology of Love" today from my pastor...you should be happy.

[Gary Swartzlander]

This has nothing to do with his book, but we have a young man playing and singing in our worship band now who came from Rob's church. He's a talented young man, but more impressive is how genuine he is in his faith. It's easy to tell how grounded his teaching has been at Rob's church.

[Hans Deventer]

This has nothing to do with his book, but we have a young man playing and singing in our worship band now who came from Rob's church. He's a talented young man, but more impressive is how genuine he is in his faith. It's easy to tell how grounded his teaching has been at Rob's church.

I think that has actually a lot to do with the book, because it says a lot about its author.

[Ian Gentles]

This is a great short book that makes you think from cover to cover, sometimes it can almost make you weep, at other times laugh. Its in tradition (can i call it that) of Post Modern theological thinking, but you would never notice. Its a good read, i enjoyed it immensly.

[Ryan Scott]

I'm pretty sure we have a review of this one already.

[Ian Gentles]

Oh well, did scrol down, maybe i missed it