God is in control...

[Doug Kitchen]

Last Sunday in Sunday School we were discussing the following:

"When God moves He controls every detail. Nothing stands in His way. For instance, at the time of the Exodus when the Israelites were to flee Egypt, God controlled the details they could not. Read Ex. 12:31-42 and record three things that indicated God was in control." ("Behold His Glory", Aletha Hinthorn)

I've never been comfortable with the "God is in control" concept (in spite of the fact that Twila Paris sings it very well). It usually sounds like people are really trying to find an eternal control-freak in scripture so that we can avoid any possibility of individual responsibility.

So my question for discussion is (should you choose to accept it):

Is there a better way to word "when God moves he controls every detail" (or other aspects of the phrase - God is in control) so that it reflects God's character and human freewill as reflected in scripture?

To clarify, the word "control" is loaded in our society but we still need assurances about God's presence, is there a way to use clearer language to express the concept?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

Doug

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Is there a better way to word "when God moves he controls every detail" (or other aspects of the phrase - God is in control) so that it reflects God's character and human freewill as reflected in scripture?
Doug

For years I have been restating people's comments that "God is in control" by saying, "Yes, God is in Authority."

When I do it, people always agree with me, but I feel I have framed the issue in a way that better fits my theology.

I believe God has the final say, but does not control what people are doing of their own free will.

[Hans Deventer]

McLaren writes that the concept of control is one that is much different for us than it was in Biblical times. Control for us is like standing in a control room, with all the buttons that can be pushed to mechanically change situations. Obviously, there was no such concept in Biblical times. Scott is right, people would have understood authority, but not control as we think of it.

[Barbara Moulton]

Exactly Hans. I believe that God is in control in the same way that a shepherd is in control of his flock. He leads it and directs it and guides it and has a plan that will bring it to good pastures.

But he is not in control in the sense that he is responsible for everything that happens to it along the way.

Because he is control (has authority) he will go go after the lost sheep and bind up the injured sheep. But that doesn't mean he caused either of those things to happen.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Exactly Hans. I believe that God is in control in the same way that a shepherd is in control of his flock. He leads it and directs it and guides it and has a plan that will bring it to good pastures.

What a great parallel! Where'd you get that?! :basic03

Seriously, you used the symbolism well, and it's biblical. I hadn't thought of the shepherd-sheep analogy that way before. Thanks.

[David van Beveren]

... I believe that God is in control in the same way that a shepherd is in control of his flock.
Thank you Barbara.

I found a similar parallel, less elaborated:
an open theist speaks (http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/721#comment-1968)
Submitted by Daniel D. Farmer on 9 September, 2005 - 3:55am.
... instead of interpreting 'God is sovereign' to mean 'God controls the world like an engineer controls a machine', they interpret it to mean something more like 'God controls the world like a good parent controls a child'.
Those comparisons speaks to my heart
Maybe you'll already know the link open source theology (http://www.opensourcetheology.net/)

David

[John Kennedy]

Still maintain that the really vital question is not "Is God in control of the situation or circumstance?" but, "Is God in control of me as I live through the situation of circumstance?"

John Kennedy

[Brian Hammons]

"Is God in control of me as I live through the situation of circumstance?"

John Kennedy

If I can blend two threads here, I think this is the crux of the issue that Ian brings up regarding "The Moving of God's Spirit Within Us..." For many people, God's Spirit does not move them because that Spirit is not at the center of their lives. Plain old basic holiness. We want what we want and we want it now. C'mon God, move me!! And I am obstinate enough to think he will even though I celebrate, worship, and desire nothing more than cheap grace. We are quite lousy at "deferred gratification" aren't we?

[Ian Gentles]

Do we really need a better word than "Control?" God created and controls all life, all creation! However, as I have said in other threads, He gave some control to humanes, see Genesis, and now a fallen humane race, it could be said, has lost control of this plannet! I feel Nazarenes are uncomfortable with the word "Control" as it seems Calvanistic to them! Lets bite hard on the bullet folks, calvanism isnt all wrong!

[BobHunt]

Brian, do you know anybody from Mt Vernon Naz University?

[Brian Hammons]

Bob:
I graduated from MVNC in '82. It has been nearly 15 years since I've been back on campus, and even then, only for an afternoon. Even though I am the worst at staying in touch with people, I am acquainted w/ several faculty and staff members. Do you have ties w/ MVNU? brh

[BobHunt]

We attended college with Dr Henry Smith, who is now becoming Pres of another college or university I think.

[Barbara Moulton]

Do we really need a better word than "Control?" God created and controls all life, all creation! However, as I have said in other threads, He gave some control to humanes, see Genesis, and now a fallen humane race, it could be said, has lost control of this plannet! I feel Nazarenes are uncomfortable with the word "Control" as it seems Calvanistic to them! Lets bite hard on the bullet folks, calvanism isnt all wrong!

I am "uncomfortable" (for want of a better world) with the word "control", not because it is Calvinistic but because I don't see a lot of evidence in Scripture of God controlling people. Guiding, directing, intervening yes, but not controlling (if by controlling we mean Him making things happen in our lives).

He invited us to reason with Him, to enter into a dialogue with Him, to have our eyes opened to His will. That doesn't seem like "control" to me.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I like "God is in authority" rather than "in control." If God controls what is happening, he is responsible for it. If he is in authority over it, he can hold people responsible for what they do of their free will.



I am "uncomfortable" (for want of a better world) with the word "control", not because it is Calvinistic but because I don't see a lot of evidence in Scripture of God controlling people. Guiding, directing, intervening yes, but not controlling (if by controlling we mean Him making things happen in our lives).

He invited us to reason with Him, to enter into a dialogue with Him, to have our eyes opened to His will. That doesn't seem like "control" to me.

[Barbara Moulton]

I like "God is in authority" rather than "in control." If God controls what is happening, he is responsible for it. If he is in authority over it, he can hold people responsible for what they do of their free will.

Exactly.

[Sharon Isley]

I'm not sure what 'terms' I am most comfortable with. But I think of it as Him being able to use even things that are not in His will, in order to accomplish His will.

He used Cyrus, and He will use the antichrist, and even when we mess up, He can still use it to accomplish His will.

This helps me understand that verse in Romans 8 that says, "All things work for good for those who love Christ." Not all things are good, not all things are in God's perfect will. But still, they end up being used by a God who is totally sovereign.

I find comfort in that. I have freedom of choice, but I also know that if I make a mistake, God can still use it, and me.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

hmm...interesting discussion.

So, question - who controls death? Do we control death and He is still just the authoritarian? Who controls birth? Who controls healing?

[Hans Deventer]

hmm...interesting discussion.

So, question - who controls death? Do we control death and He is still just the authoritarian? Who controls birth? Who controls healing?

What do you have in mind when you think of controlling death? Is it like God is deciding for each of the 6 billion people what their hour of death will be? I don't believe that. If I ride my bike home tonight and some car hits me and I die, I don't believe that God intended that to happen, let alone made it happen.

Do you see what the problem with "control" is? Like I wrote in the beginning of the thread, it is a non biblical concept. We have "control rooms" in plants, where each and every part of the production process is monitored and controlled. In Biblical times, there was no such mechanical thing.
Of course, the Bible does know about a God who speaks and creates by the power of His word. But it also knows about many things happening on this earth that God has not willed.

[Ian Gentles]

Barbara agreed, God gave free will, control and responsibilty to humanes. But again, He is still in control, we fail we face the judgment etc. He als controls, in that He allows things to come into our lives, some god, some bad.

[Ian Gentles]

Belinda God controls death, He calls His own to Himself, my brother was three, some saints live till they are 100. Yet, He dose leave some control to us, within reason, in that we can shorten our lives through stupidity!

[Hans Deventer]

Belinda God controls death, He calls His own to Himself, my brother was three, some saints live till they are 100. Yet, He dose leave some control to us, within reason, in that we can shorten our lives through stupidity!

My brother was four, but I still don't believe he died because God controlled his body so that he just had to die. I simply cannot believe in a god who wanted to kill my brother at age four.
Only a week ago my sister and I were sitting at my mom's and his name was mentioned. She got tears in her eyes again, while it is almost 50 years ago that he passed away.

I don't need a god who "controls" this earth. I need a God who can create something good out of our worst crimes, like killing Jesus. A God who is endlessly creative in finding ways to pursue His goals, and Who WILL reach them!

If you still want to use the word "control", I could see God as a chess master, who "controls" the game in such a way that He always wins, not because He makes his opponent behave in a certain way.

[Ian Gentles]

I'm sorry you hurt Hans, and Yes my mom rembers Bert often with tears. Yet I still will hold to a God who is in control, remembering what I have said regards humane responsibility. God can stop death, He chooses not too, part of the fall. He takes His own to Himself, again part of His control. He is the Sovreign God, oh YES I wish He would work out things soo differntly, for me, for my world, but He dosent, He is still in control.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm sorry Ian, I can't believe in such a God.

But I checked the dictionary on sovereign. It says:

sov·er·eign

n.

1. One that exercises supreme, permanent authority, especially in a nation or other governmental unit, as:
a. A king, queen, or other noble person who serves as chief of state; a ruler or monarch.
b. A national governing council or committee.
2. A nation that governs territory outside its borders.
3. A gold coin formerly used in Great Britain.


adj.

1. Self-governing; independent: a sovereign state.
2. Having supreme rank or power: a sovereign prince.
3. Paramount; supreme: Her sovereign virtue is compassion.
4. a. Of superlative strength or efficacy: a sovereign remedy.
b. Unmitigated: sovereign contempt.


That is not a controlling God, so I can agree with the concept of sovereignity.

[Barbara Moulton]

The bigger question for me to get my mind around is not whether God controls death. It's around my existence...my birth. The fact that I am who I am genetically is dependant on choices of my mom and dad and all their ancestors. My talents and skills and abilities and even my body type is a result of a myriad of people that married to create my gene pool down through the years.

So who would I be (or would I be at all) if my mom had married the first man she was engaged to? The fact is, I am who I am because of who she married. So did God make her marry that man in order that I might be?

I can't fathom a world without me...because I am me. I perceive everything through the filters that life has created in me. Yet 48 years ago, I did not exist. Would I have existed if my parents had chosen to make love on a different night? Did God control even that?

There are so many variables that result in me being me. Did God orchestrate all those variables just to bring me into being? Or did God come to know me the moment I was conceived, see all my potential based on who I was....when I was in my mother's womb and in that moment began to make plans for me...plans that I was then free to reject.

I am faced with two conclusion. There are so many variables that went into making me that I must believe that God orchestrated them all OR I must believe that my very existence itself was simply a possiblity in the mind of God. And I might very well not have been if choices had been made differently.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Hans, i don't view death the way i seem to be reading your posts. i don't view death as an enemy but rather a friend. my view is a bit tainted these days because of 15 hours of lecture on cancer and hospice care.

God created and designed the mechanical workings of the human body. The more i sit and study the more deeply complexed i see things. Dying is not a simple process. Death seems to march to the beat of its own drummer.

i think that there are choices we make that can hasten our death.
i think that there can be issues in life that blind side us - and make our bodies vulnerable to death.
i think that ultimately someone has to make the decision regarding death.

i have had a 'near death experience'. Because of this experience i have been intrigued to read about others experiences. Most all speak/share of being visited by either a Heavenly being or a relative who has already left this earth. Some speak/share of both. i do believe (notice that i am not thinking but believing) that no one dies alone - regardless of faith or life choices. i have *thought* this for a long time, but the hospice care lecture had several individuals who have been at the bedside of people from all walks of life and there are dynamics that are the same for all peoples. They believe that no one dies alone. i find great comfort in that.

Who ultimately controls the speed/process of dying is something that i have no absolute thoughts or beliefs in - at this time. The reason is because my personal stories and stories that have been shared with me don't follow the same pattern of logic. i am torn in what i think and believe. i simply don't know. There are people in all camps on this one. There is merit to a person, letting go - and the body simply shutting down. There is merit to a person, hanging on for various reasons and at an appointed time -is gone. There are those who plea to die and still live.

i will share a story that was shared with us:

This lady was in hospice care - meaning she had been diagnosed with a disease/illness where she had six months or less to live. She is angry and bitter. Very mean and nasty to the staff. One day the chaplain refused to leave her room. The lady couldn't *make* her leave because she couldn't get out of bed. (Yes, boundaries were broken all over the place......hmmmmmmm)
The chaplain told her that she wasn't leaving because she couldn't die that mean.

The end result - the lady walked out of hospice - is still alive today - - resolved inner issues and recovered.

i have questions that i don't have answers for - -

[Hans Deventer]

Yvonne,

Death has two sides. I personally am more than ready to die. It will be "gain", I'm sure. But I also know people around me, especially Hannie, would be heartbroken. As I would be when she'd die. And I have seen what the death of my brother still did to my mother in later years (he was older than me). Death is not a friend, it is a conquered enemy, but still an enemy. We were never made to be seperated from the ones we love, it is only through sin that this came to be our predicament.

That's my view on death.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Hans, please don't misunderstand - i still cry (from time to time) over the death of those i love.

Doesn't all things have two sides?

Boundaries. It is easy (haha) for me to draw a boundary in my life and call it healthy - but then - what affect does my boundary have on others? Is that of importance?

In the medical world we are taught to put our own definitions and expections on a shelf and ask the question, "Whose journey is it?"

The journey of the person is vital, but hospice care does recognize the needs of those left behind to the extent that they receive support/counsel and aid up to 13 months after death.

Can you name one organization where someone is not in control? If God isn't in control - are *we* really the ones who calls the shots for death?

Who ------- is in control??

i don't know that i can accept the ideology that we are just spinning out here on our own force strength.

i understand the authority of God- and accept that belief. i also realize that God and Jesus go by many names, each one having a distinct meaning. What does Ruler mean? What does King of Kings mean? What does Lord of Lords mean?

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Birth - accidents waiting to happen???

The complexity of the moment of conception to design that particular person is mind boggling. Yes, a one night stand - or even a simple night between husband and wife.

i suppose it could be called *romantic*, *dreamer*, - whatever label that is used at the moment to describe me - - -

i can't accept the fact that God just chooses to use whatever happens to arrive on our planet.

What happened to words like - purpose, divine, orchestration???

The significant of humanity??? Who decides its worth?

[Hans Deventer]

Can you name one organization where someone is not in control? If God isn't in control - are *we* really the ones who calls the shots for death?

Yes. Pretty much any organization that does not have a dictator on top. And the same goes for families. Is Garry in control of his family? I don't think so.

And yes, when a killer stands next to you with a gun in his hand and he pulls the trigger, then indeed "he's calling the shots for death". That has absolutely nothing to do with God wanting to take you out of your family.

Who ------- is in control??

Please, it might be useful to define control as you understand it.

i don't know that i can accept the ideology that we are just spinning out here on our own force strength.

i understand the authority of God- and accept that belief. i also realize that God and Jesus go by many names, each one having a distinct meaning. What does Ruler mean? What does King of Kings mean? What does Lord of Lords mean?

I appreciate your honesty because indeed that is where the issue revolves around: "what can we accept"? I can't accept the image of a God who is only a Puppeteer, busy pulling the strings for each and every move we make. I don't believe that is a biblical image. In fact, I believe the biblical writers had no such concept at all, so they could never have wanted to apply that to God.

I believe the relationship between God and his creation is much more dynamic. Yes, He upholds everything by His power, our very existance even. But within that power, we are still free to make choices, because we are indeed created in the image of God. And He is the one who follows His goals and achieves His goals notwithstanding our freedom. Not by pulling strings. Indeed "His ways are not our ways". "Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit". Though I do believe that one day, this world as we know it will come to an end. The new earth and the new heaven WILL come. He is able to do so, and that is where the freedom of evil will end. But untill that day, we are still in the time of grace, where we have considerable freedom, for both good and bad.

That is what King of Kings and Lord of Lords means. He is able and has the authority to do what He wants. He's not using all that power right now, but sent His Son instead, weak as a baby (litterally), the suffering Servant. And yet, out of this seeming defeat, He created His biggest victory.

Yvonne, that is the God I believe in. His love, wisdom and power is beyond compare. But He is not a heavenly puppeteer.

[Hans Deventer]

The significant of humanity??? Who decides its worth?

God does, because He loves us. That is my sole ground of value and significance. God's love first, last and everywhere in between. I am valuable because He (and isn't it a miracle?) loves me, even me.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Control? Good question. i don't know that i have one pet answer. i think control looks different in different situations.

One definition of control to me is when a decision is made by someone/something else that will turn my path in a direction that is different from what i have desired/dreamed/planned/understood/agreed/preceived/accepted. For ex. i have agreed to rearrange my schedule to attend a concert with a friend. At the last minute i get a phone call telling me that my friend decided three days ago to go out to eat with another friend instead of attending the concert. That decision made by another person controled my journey of life.

My second defintion of control is like a fence. It is for protection and definition of the organization/family/country. For ex. one *control* factor in our COTN is that one will not allow tongues to be practiced/taught or encouraged in our churches. It isn't to be mean or a dictator but rather to define how we are different from another denomination.

i do agree with your belief that God isn't a Puppeteer. i do agree that we are accountable for our own decisions and choices regarding our responses to life issues.

[Sharon Isley]

I doubt any of us can ever really grasp the complexity of this issue. I know that God has the ability to control things, or else our prayers are in vain. If we don't believe He can control circumstances, such as life and death, then why pray when we are in need?

So the issue for me is, what does God choose to do? He has chosen to give us free will. We can do things that goes against His will, and so some events are not the way He wanted them to be. At the same time, He has the power to intercede at any time He chooses.

With the example of someone holding a gun to your head, we know beyond any doubt that this is not God's will. If the man pulls the trigger, your death is in the hands of this man.

However, God can do miracles, and can stop that bullet, should He choose to do so. In most cases, it seems He instead chooses to let things happen.

I don't understand. It is beyond me.

Even the question of birth is confusing. I was a product of a rape. Did God plan for that? Or is it more of a matter of His omniscience? He surely didn't want that act of violence to take place. Yet I believe - depend on - the scriptures that say that God loved me and chose me even before the world began.

So did He make this horrible act happen so that I could come into existance, with the right combination of DNA? Or, did He know before hand the choice my father would make, and what the results would be, and He chose to use it in accordance with His will, even though that act was not His will?

As the Bible says...His thoughts are higher than our thoughts...His ways are higher than our ways.

[Cindi Hammons]

Did God orchestrate all those variables just to bring me into being? Or did God come to know me the moment I was conceived, see all my potential based on who I was....when I was in my mother's womb and in that moment began to make plans for me...plans that I was then free to reject.

Barbara,

I find your post very interesting. I agree with your premise. My Dad was married to a woman who died of heart disease when she was very young. He later married my Mom. Some might say that God caused (Ruth) to die. Would this be to "orchestrate" my birth? I reject that! I am glad to be me! But I cannot accept a god that would cause death and sadness to facilitate my existence.

Thanks for your comments.

Cindi H.

[Ian Gentles]

Yes Hans He does love us, and when we die, the ones we will leave grieving, and grieving hurts so terribly, done too much of that already in life! But if I didnt know my God was in control, I would just give up. We seem to be crossing swords here while we actualy agree regards most things. I fear the death proccess, I saw too may die! I dont ever want to leave my loved one's, or loose them! If Christine was taken, I just dont think, humanly speaking, that I could cope! I fear suffering and death, and hate the sorrow and suffering I see all over this sad sick world. But I beleive, if I am killed tommorrow, or die of natural causes, God has allowed it, He is ultimatly in controll and therefore could have prevented it! I pray for health and safety each day, for me, for my loved ones, for all you folks. I want desperatly for God to intervene when a friend is ill, for Him to heal them, but sometimes He decides differently, He is God! The longer I live, the more I yearn for that Heaven where "All tears" will be wiped from our eyes.

[Ian Gentles]

Maybe we can develope this subject, and it is a fantastic thread, a little.
How much do we affect God's control, or whatever word we want to use, by our disobediance? Lets look at diet, OT says something about that, health hazards, Manual says a bit about that, etc etc!

There are also risk factors, I join the military, ok for very noble reasons, I am still statisticly more lickly to get hurt. If I join a profesion that sees danger, again same applies.

I drive at 90mph, yep have done it, I'm more likly to get killed in a car crash!

Also social enviroment...If I live in a poor inner city area am more in danger than if I live in rich subburbs!

Then we have humane error, and negligence...many folks die in UK hospitals, because national Health dosent keep God given guidence on hygene!

So question is, in seeking to devolope thread further..
1 How much of our dissobediance causes ourselfs to suffer.

2 How much of our dissobediance causes others to suffer.

[Hans Deventer]

Even the question of birth is confusing. I was a product of a rape. Did God plan for that? Or is it more of a matter of His omniscience? He surely didn't want that act of violence to take place. Yet I believe - depend on - the scriptures that say that God loved me and chose me even before the world began.

So did He make this horrible act happen so that I could come into existance, with the right combination of DNA? Or, did He know before hand the choice my father would make, and what the results would be, and He chose to use it in accordance with His will, even though that act was not His will?

As the Bible says...His thoughts are higher than our thoughts...His ways are higher than our ways.

Sharon, I can't even begin to imagine what this is like. But I agree, I do believe He loved you and chose you.

To me, the example of David and Batseba speaks volumes. Did God want David to do this? Kill his neighbour and take his wife? Of course not, as Natan states so forcefully. Yet, out of Batseba, ultimately, the Messiah was born.

U2 has these great lyrics in the song "Grace", which I believe apply in your and David's case:

What once was hurt
What once was friction
What left a mark
No longer stings
Because Grace makes beauty
Out of ugly things

My problem is that this work that grace does, I simply cannot call "control". It sounds way too detached, mechanical, dictatorial. It is not who Jesus is. He does not "control". It's simply not the right word. But I think we all agree on what is ugly and what is beauty, and on how God indeed "makes beauty out of ugly things"

[Hans Deventer]

Yes Hans He does love us, and when we die, the ones we will leave grieving, and grieving hurts so terribly, done too much of that already in life! But if I didnt know my God was in control, I would just give up. We seem to be crossing swords here while we actualy agree regards most things.

True. It is the word control that is the problem. See my reply to Sharon.

[Ian Gentles]

True. It is the word control that is the problem. See my reply to Sharon.

Why should this be, surely a God in control is what we want, need?:fav18

[Hans Deventer]

Why should this be, surely a God in control is what we want, need?:fav18

We may very well want that, but it is in vain. For if it were true, He would be no better than the devil. It means he controlled the death of 6 million Jews in WW2, or the slaughter of millions of Tutsi's in Rwanda, or of the Armenians by the Turks etc etc etc. If God indeed controlled that, He put the devil out of job!

So again and again, I'm saying there is something very wrong with the word "control" and I honestly believe we should get it out of our heads. We live in a world where we fight "against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms". We're in a battle, Ian! But, we believe that God will prevail, as He promised: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'

That is the reality we live in. A reality that is sometimes very ugly indeed, and I don't need to tell you that. But, the new heaven and the new earth will come. And one day, we WILL hear the Voice say: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life."

And THAT, my dear brother, is what I need and want and what I believe in.

I don't need the false consolation that somehow, everything that happens is as God wanted it or is somehow good. Some things are absolutely NOT good! And they are most certainly not what God wanted. And still, things are not going out of hand. For He will prevail.

Do you understand my problem now with this word "control"? You need not agree, but do you understand?

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Okay - discussing on ....

"Letting Go and Letting God"

None of us want anything or anyone to be in control of us. We will use subtle, we will use blunt, we will use creative skills to mantain the control we want in a situation.

One mom recently literally yanked the IV straight out of the baby's arm - while it was all still taped down.....but so that the staff would immediately come to her baby's bedside.

Just a few moments ago, Jon was talking to me about how he is really going to push his leg in therapy today ...

i gave him a mini-version of the control speech and told him that he needs to let it go. He needs to let go of trying to control things.

i am not so sure that God isn't suppose to be in control - why surrender? Why accept the higher power -

Surrendering
Accepting another Guidance - is accepting their control.

There are more ways to *control* than just blanten obvious orders.

Surrender - oh, what peace.

[Gina Stevenson]

... just realized you've had something common occur when younger, too. One's brother died when three, the other when four ... I had a sister who died at 5 months [pneumonia] when I was real young. In fact, tho' I'm sure it had some effect on me [something like that couldn't help but affect someone, methinks], I cannot recall her; have only heard/seen pictures. I was not even two yet when it happened ... I was 21 months old.

Other than noticing she wasn't there, I'd guess -- knowing ma's make-up -- that a lot of its "effect" was in how ma was acting around me while grieving my sister; when she's bothered, she'll ignore someone a lot. 'Seems like I do recall feeling "in the way" when young ... would try to get her attention, and she didn't want to be "bothered" because she was "busy" ... "later" ... "not NOW!" ... etc ............

Were your brothers older or younger than you? If it was in your post, I guess I missed reading it. sorry.

gina

[Hans Deventer]

Gina, my brother was older. He was born in March 1955, I was born in December 1957. He died in the Spring of 1959. There are of course pictures of him and there is actually one of him, holding me. It's still in my mother's bedroom to this very day.

So like you didn't really know your sister, I have never really known him. But I do look forward to the moment when I go to heaven and a guy will walk up to me and say, Hans, I'm your brother! I know my dad willl be there, and I do look forward to meeting my dad again, but I have to admit, I especially look forward to meeting my brother, because I have never known him. And one day, my sisters (born in 1961 and 1963) will be there as well, and for the first time ever, the family will be complete. I think that must be some of the joys of heaven, and probably also one of those moments that God has to wipe away the tears.

[Ian Gentles]

Yes Belinda we control very little in reality, so somone has too, and that someone is God!
Hans, God allows evil, He didnt cause the holocaust, nor did He cause the evil in Nazi minds. Yet, He controls, a day is comming, known only to God, when He will end this sad world, now thats control whatever word we want to use.

[David van Beveren]

Jumping in a little late, but ok...

1. If we are reflecting God's image. And we are supposed NOT to be in control what is that saying about God?

2. If a world is on fire, and you are almighty and you are controlling everything or are able to control everything, but you do a louzy job, because you do not use your power to recue a little child of sexual abuse, or to stop a tsunami of killing hundreds of thousands of lives, what is that saying about you.
If someone is drowning and I am able to swim and to rescue the poor guy, but I don't do that what is that saying of me? Answer: That I am the reflection of this God?
Wow, the world really become a nice place when all people would reflect this God, isn't it?

[Ian Gentles]

Yes David, God, I have always maintained this, gave a lot of control to humanes, in Garden. We retain that control, at God's desireing, in the fall. We are responsible for mess our world is in, hence comming judgment on all flesh. Yet in allowing that control to us, God was in control, and He takes back that control from us, at judgment, for He is in ultimate charge!
But love way you express things, YES we are the reflection of God in the world.

[Hans Deventer]

Ian,

I think we have come full circle. This thread started with Scott writing:


For years I have been restating people's comments that "God is in control" by saying, "Yes, God is in Authority."

When I do it, people always agree with me, but I feel I have framed the issue in a way that better fits my theology.

I believe God has the final say, but does not control what people are doing of their own free will.

I agree with Scott, I understand you don't. We both believe God will ultimately have His way, that people have a free will and are allowed to abuse it and that not everything that happens on this earth is according to God's will. Because of that, I don't like the word control because of the reasons Scott gave. That's all. If you do, be my guest.

[Ian Gentles]

I havent ever said I disagree with Scot, I thought this was a discussion!?

[Ian Gentles]

Hans do please put me down in future, I show respect to you.

[Hans Deventer]

I havent ever said I disagree with Scot, I thought this was a discussion!?

????????? I just need to apologize now, for if this is so, I never understood what you wanted to say :basic04

[Hans Deventer]

Hans do please put me down in future, I show respect to you.

?????????????? What are you talking about?

[Ian Gentles]

????????? I just need to apologize now, for if this is so, I never understood what you wanted to say :basic04

I guess what I have been saying all along. God gave control to humanes, "Free will", but ultimatly God has the full "Authority", is in "Control"!

[Ian Gentles]

Ian,

I think we have come full circle. This thread started with Scott writing:


For years I have been restating people's comments that "God is in control" by saying, "Yes, God is in Authority."

When I do it, people always agree with me, but I feel I have framed the issue in a way that better fits my theology.

I believe God has the final say, but does not control what people are doing of their own free will.

I agree with Scott, I understand you don't. We both believe God will ultimately have His way, that people have a free will and are allowed to abuse it and that not everything that happens on this earth is according to God's will. Because of that, I don't like the word control because of the reasons Scott gave. That's all. If you do, be my guest.

I feel you have totaly misunderstood my point, I dont beleive we came full circle, people were just discussing this matter in some depth, which is great. You decided I didnt agree with Scott, not me!

[Hans Deventer]

Ian,

Again my apologies. I thought we understood each other but disagreed on a point, now I see we don't understand one another at all. I'm sorry, I'll leave it here.

[BobHunt]

I too had an older brother by 2 years, who was stillborn. In fact, I didnt know about this until I was in my teens.
Im somewhere in the middle about this, I mean we know that God can control things like the weather, for He stilled the storm on Galilee. I have no doubt that if He wanted to, He could take my next breath and Id be gone. I have no doubt that if God wanted to, He could have stopped the hurricanes or could have prevented your brother's death. Cant we just say, He does have control, but at times does not step in? Because He does not step in and stop a sexual assault on a girl, isnt showing to me that He is less than God, it shows that He has given us a free will, because someone chose to sin in this way.

[David van Beveren]

Yes David, God, I have always maintained this, gave a lot of control to humanes, in Garden. We retain that control, at God's desireing, in the fall. We are responsible for mess our world is in, hence comming judgment on all flesh. Yet in allowing that control to us, God was in control, and He takes back that control from us, at judgment, for He is in ultimate charge!
But love way you express things, YES we are the reflection of God in the world.

See my illustration about th drowning guy.
As I understand your vision, God is standing aside, his hands in his pockets, while he is in ultimate control, and let the guy drown.
I try, but I do not understand that position.

[Ian Gentles]

David if we understood everything we would be God, and for some things there are no humane answer, guess thats where faith comes in!

[Hans Deventer]

Then we should stop talking theology, Ian, for theology is faith seeking understanding.

[Doug Kitchen]

Last Sunday in Sunday School we were discussing the following:

"When God moves He controls every detail. Nothing stands in His way. For instance, at the time of the Exodus when the Israelites were to flee Egypt, God controlled the details they could not. Read Ex. 12:31-42 and record three things that indicated God was in control." ("Behold His Glory", Aletha Hinthorn)

I've never been comfortable with the "God is in control" concept (in spite of the fact that Twila Paris sings it very well). It usually sounds like people are really trying to find an eternal control-freak in scripture so that we can avoid any possibility of individual responsibility.

So my question for discussion is (should you choose to accept it):

Is there a better way to word "when God moves he controls every detail" (or other aspects of the phrase - God is in control) so that it reflects God's character and human freewill as reflected in scripture?

To clarify, the word "control" is loaded in our society but we still need assurances about God's presence, is there a way to use clearer language to express the concept?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

Doug


My brother-in-law (an ordained elder in the cotn) is here for thanksgiving and asked about naznet. We were just sampling Naznet and this is his take on "God is in control" (I guess this is a sample post from him - so be gentle, it sounded like he might sign up):

1. God does not micro-manage His creation. He has put in place laws of nature that sustain His creation.

2. God controls like a shepherd - leading and guiding

3. God intervenes to prevent some disasters we may not know about but He also allows some catastrophes to occur.

4. He intervenes to cause His will to be done as in the conception of Christ.

God is sovereign, He is able to provide for our needs, intervene in our lives and will at times force His will. His intervention in creation is a reflection of His desires. There is no limit to the power and control that God could exert but He exercises His own self-control to decide when to act.

BTW, I've really enjoyed the discussion on this thread and it is fun to see how long it has lasted.

Well we are off for a walk in the woods...
Doug

[Marsha Lynn]

"When God moves He controls every detail. Nothing stands in His way. For instance, at the time of the Exodus when the Israelites were to flee Egypt, God controlled the details they could not. Read Ex. 12:31-42 and record three things that indicated God was in control." ("Behold His Glory", Aletha Hinthorn)

I somehow missed this quote and its source until you posted again today. I've been part of a ladies Bible study group for the past 11 years. One year we did a book by Aletha Hinthorn and I struggled all year with both the stated and implied theology in it. She definitely sees things from a different angle on more subjects than just God's sovereignty. I'm not sure of her background but the views she expresses seem a better match to what I hear from people of reformed background than what usually comes out of NPH. It's surprising to me that they publish her books. I'm sure she's a nice enough person and she's not straying from Christian orthodoxy, but she doesn't seem to be well-versed in Wesleyan theology.

In my opinion, which is worth what you're paying for it.

I suggest you get your b-i-l to write a Bible study book for you.

:basic03

Marsha

[Ian Gentles]

Then we should stop talking theology, Ian, for theology is faith seeking understanding.

Never Hans, but we must accept that all questions will not have an answer in this world!

[Doug Kitchen]

I somehow missed this quote and its source until you posted again today. I've been part of a ladies Bible study group for the past 11 years. One year we did a book by Aletha Hinthorn and I struggled all year with both the stated and implied theology in it. She definitely sees things from a different angle on more subjects than just God's sovereignty. I'm not sure of her background but the views she expresses seem a better match to what I hear from people of reformed background than what usually comes out of NPH. It's surprising to me that they publish her books. I'm sure she's a nice enough person and she's not straying from Christian orthodoxy, but she doesn't seem to be well-versed in Wesleyan theology.

In my opinion, which is worth what you're paying for it.

I suggest you get your b-i-l to write a Bible study book for you.

:basic03

Marsha

I think Aletha Hinthorn is Wesleyan (she's the editor of Women Alive). She does lean towards the totally sovereign, no free-will side but not entirely. I have enjoyed this particular book as a Sunday School class because she approaches scripture a little differently than I would and she really uses all of the Bible (every sunday it is like a sword drill for us). She expresses many points the way other inter-denominational writers do - there is a certain broadness in statements that allow a Nazarene or a Presbyterian to see their views in her writing.

(There are a lot of other interdenominational speakers like this. I just heard Tony Campolo speak at a Nazarene retreat. He was excellent but it was noticeable that he expresses things like imputed righteousness in such a way that a Nazarene feels like he is talking about imparted righteousness.)

I will tell my b-i-l to write some Bible studies. (I had to look twice to figure out what you meant by b-i-l ;) ). He's a good preacher and Bible teacher. BTW, I think you should write some Bible studies, too. Come to think of it, many of the threads on Naznet could be made into pretty good inductive Bible studies. hmmm... still sounds like a lot of work.


Doug