The Manual is online now!

[Hans Deventer]

It is a PDF download, I think that is the best format they could choose.

http://www.nazarene.org/gensec/manual0509.html

If my grandkids will ever ask me what I managed to change in the Church of the Nazarene, I can at least point at the Manual now being available online :basic05
OK, it took a General Assembly action to get it done, but it worked.

Enjoy!

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Thanks, Hans, in more ways than one.

F&TC,
- J

[BobHunt]

Hans, this brings up a question. Are we in the dispensation of law or the dispensation of Grace?
LOL I couldnt resist that one!

[Mark Bolerjack]

I found it today after seeing the announcement on the NCN News email that I received today. Went to the site, downloaded it, then put it on my Sony PDA. Have not had time to read it yet!

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, this brings up a question. Are we in the dispensation of law or the dispensation of Grace?
LOL I couldnt resist that one!

We'll be in the latter when each and every Nazarene understands the truth of that statement, starting out with GA delegates.

[Mark Metcalfe]

Thanks a bunch, Hans.
I've traveled 6200 miles over the last week.
Back in "Mayberry"!

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Wait a second...I can't cut and paste from it...I was under the impression that your resolution would make it possible for ministers to actually use the Manual from the web.

What did your resolution say?

Looks like NPH wins in the end.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Wait a second...I can't cut and paste from it...I was under the impression that your resolution would make it possible for ministers to actually use the Manual from the web.

What did your resolution say?

Looks like NPH wins in the end.

I'm with you! Frankly, I feel a little bit angry about this. Clearly, the General Assembly voted to make the Manual available on line. Someone in high places didn't like it, so they came up with a way of making the on line version as useless as possible.

I am tempted to buy one of those programs that will unlock pdf files so I can get real use out of this Manual.

Now we have to wait till the next General Assembly when someone can make a motion to make the Manual really available on line.

[Hans Deventer]

Wait a second...I can't cut and paste from it...I was under the impression that your resolution would make it possible for ministers to actually use the Manual from the web.

What did your resolution say?

Looks like NPH wins in the end.

It said:

To make available for download from www.nazarene.org the complete text of the latest version of the Manual, in a format that can be used on the widest possible range of PC's, PDA's etc.

Well, that's what they did.

My main concern was that the text became available for searching on an PC or PDA. I have often used that, but I only could because as a translator, I got the digital Manual to work with. I felt that option should be available to all.

I'm sorry I didn't check with a lawyer before I wrote the resolution and I am a little surprised that one cannot copy and past from this, but they did meet the GA resolution and my intention.

[Sharon Isley]

It said:

To make available for download from www.nazarene.org the complete text of the latest version of the Manual, in a format that can be used on the widest possible range of PC's, PDA's etc.

Well, that's what they did.

Hmmm...not sure they did what they said. They said make it in a formate that can be used...

This we can't use. We can only read it.

You made a good motion. They implemented it poorly.

[Sharon Isley]

I suppose we can search too...but you can use an index to search. There are times we need to quote the manual, in a board meeting or whatever. I am very disappointed that we can't copy and paste even small sections. It is a pain to hand type what we need to quote.

[Gary Swartzlander]

I'm pretty sure this file is probably what was sent for printing. I'd give this a few days or weeks to shake out and I think they may realize the problem and fix it. On the other hand, someone should have recognized the problem and fixed it already, so I may be all wet thinking something else might be coming.

[Hans Deventer]

I suppose we can search too...but you can use an index to search. There are times we need to quote the manual, in a board meeting or whatever. I am very disappointed that we can't copy and paste even small sections. It is a pain to hand type what we need to quote.

I've never found much using the index. It is far from complete, not even remotely.

[Hans Deventer]

Hmmm...not sure they did what they said. They said make it in a formate that can be used...

This we can't use. We can only read it.

You made a good motion. They implemented it poorly.

Sharon, I have to be honest! They provided what I asked for. I can understand the disappointment that they did not go the second mile.

I really wonder if indeed we need a second GA motion to get that fixed, it seems like a crazy thing to me that we need to have a 1000 people from all over the world to come to Florida in 2009 to get stuff like this fixed. It was already maddness that this resolution had to be adopted in the first place. It's one of the reasons I am not coming back to a GA. I simply cannot imagine this is Kingdom business.

[Sharon Isley]

I wonder if a petition would do any good in a case like this?

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

I'm pretty sure this file is probably what was sent for printing. I'd give this a few days or weeks to shake out and I think they may realize the problem and fix it. On the other hand, someone should have recognized the problem and fixed it already, so I may be all wet thinking something else might be coming.


i love your positive thinking and the ability to give the benefit of the doubt. Don't ever loose that trait. It is refreshing and i need to hear it more often.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Well, I gave in and bought the Manual with CD so I can copy and paste text. To my dismay, it comes on a CD that also contains a Bible software package called Bible Explorer. It has the King James Bible and the New King James Bible that will remain unlocked. Then it has an entire CD worth of Bible resources that are only unlocked for 30 days, then you have to buy them.

So far as I can tell, there is no way to just get to the text of the Manual without installing this large software package. There are only two options -- install everything onto your hard drive or install only the operating files and leave everything else (including the Manual) on the CD. Apparently, if you want the convenience of the Manual on your hard drive you have to let the program download thousands and thousands of pages of stuff that will be "locked" in 30 days.

Not only that, but it is in a proprietary format, so you can't just grab the Manual and save it in your own format and forget the CD. You can only use it within the Bible Explorer Software.

I already have a good Bible package and don't want another.

All I want is the Manual on my computer -- first they give me a download-able version that I can't copy and paste from, now they give me a CD of stuff I don't want but have to keep to use the Manual.

I am, as you probably figured out by now, quite frustrated with this. Why does NPH have to take something that could be so simple and make it complicated!

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I am, as you probably figured out by now, quite frustrated with this. Why does NPH have to take something that could be so simple and make it complicated!

It is on-line by order of the GA. It is my opinion that NPH followed the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit behind the resolution.

So who wants to start drafting, in technical legalese, a new resolution for the next GA to fix this problem?

Wilson

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

It is on-line by order of the GA. It is my opinion that NPH followed the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit behind the resolution.

So who wants to start drafting, in technical legalese, a new resolution for the next GA to fix this problem?

Wilson

So far as I can tell I was able to copy and paste the whole thing, section by section, into a .doc file. It took about 10 minutes and I then saved it to my computer.

The one on the cd is hyperlinked so when one paragraph references another, you can click on the link and go to it. Of course, I lost that in copying it to my hard drive, but I can do a quick search and get there almost as fast, and now I don't have to have the program with all the overhead on my hard drive.

Yep, someone will have to come up with an iron clad resolution for Orlando. And, just for the record, I am a good Nazarene and won't start selling my boot legged copy of the Manual (but I am sure tempted!).

:basic03

[Jon Twitchell]

So far as I can tell I was able to copy and paste the whole thing, section by section, into a .doc file. It took about 10 minutes and I then saved it to my computer.

The one on the cd is hyperlinked so when one paragraph references another, you can click on the link and go to it. Of course, I lost that in copying it to my hard drive, but I can do a quick search and get there almost as fast, and now I don't have to have the program with all the overhead on my hard drive.

Yep, someone will have to come up with an iron clad resolution for Orlando. And, just for the record, I am a good Nazarene and won't start selling my boot legged copy of the Manual (but I am sure tempted!).

:basic03

Scott,

If I buy the CD and scan my receipt and email it to you, will you burn me the more usable version so I don't have to do the whole copy-and-paste thing myself?

[Jon Twitchell]

Hans,

I'm curious about one thing. I know you quoted the resolution already in this thread, but didn't you also compose a "reasoning/rationale" for the resolution? What was that rationale?

[Jon Twitchell]

I'm pretty sure this file is probably what was sent for printing. I'd give this a few days or weeks to shake out and I think they may realize the problem and fix it. On the other hand, someone should have recognized the problem and fixed it already, so I may be all wet thinking something else might be coming.

I hope that you are right. I confess that I am a bit more skeptical and cynical than you are--and think that the almighty dollar is speaking more strongly than the clear intent of the resolution.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Scott,

If I buy the CD and scan my receipt and email it to you, will you burn me the more usable version so I don't have to do the whole copy-and-paste thing myself?

Jon, I don't think it would be worth the trouble for either one of us -- as I said it took around 10 minutes for me to copy and paste all the text. To me it is just the aggravation of it all. I am sure someone else who get it and just love the Bible versions, etc. In my case, I just wanted the Manual in digital form. It seems to be such a simple thing to me and I am frustrated that it has been made, in my opinion, so complicated.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Many Thanks!

Is it allowed to create a HTML - Version?
It so - it were an easy job for me, I own a free german converting program "pdf2html" with many converting options.
For my own I do convert, because I do not like the dirty looking pixel - effects of the high document compression of PDFs and to handle it by a browser is easier done. The Adobe Reader is not good to handle, loads too much plugins and (in newer versions) tries to connect internet.

Created and offered by the german branch of PC - World, I looked for an english version already two years ago, but not found. This program with a win - surface only does speak german. It is basing on an english talking DOS - version, that needs to work with DOS command parameters (or to write a small batch program).

[Carsten Schermuly]

The converting tool says clearly,
"Error: Copying of text from this document is not allowed."
I have to accept.

[BobHunt]

thoughtless of me, I never even remembered that you would need translations done of this.....did you do them or is there someone who does them for you?

[Carsten Schermuly]

The only one german printed translation of the manual I ever have had in my hands was from 1979 or 80 and it was just a fragment, unfortunately not often updated. It was nice made, as a stabile plastic ringbook, easy to update. Dark blue with the church enblem in gold on its cover.
It was a giant work to translate - seen on correct juristic contents, theologic and history questions, not to provocate misunderstandings. The publishers, (I am not sure who it was) the Superintendent of the former middleeuropean district or the Office of the Eurasia Mission Field wrote in their foreword expressively, "Only for internal use".
I guess,
this PDF document now is locked by a keyword because it contains part of the bible, published by allowness of Zondervan Publishers and not to prevent copies of "law and order directions".
A few minutes ago I finished a HTML version, containing a frameset, an index (menu), 400 html pages and 400 background images. Packed to a selfexploding exe it is 320 KB large.
I personally do not need a translation, using correct english might be difficult, but reading is naturally much easier done.

[Carsten Schermuly]

See the copyright mark for the bible parts. In original scripture size partially very tiny - unreadable.

---

Copyright 2005
by Nazarene Publishing House
Published by the authority of
the Twenty-sixth General Assembly
held in Indianapolis, Indiana, U.S.A.
June 26-30, 2005

Editing Committee
DEAN G. BLEVINS
CURTIS LEWIS JR.
FRANK M. MOORE
R. DOUGLAS SAMPLES
JACK STONE


ISBN 083-412-2529 (Cloth)
ISBN 083-412-2537 (Kivar)
ISBN 083-412-2545 (Leather Cover)

Printed in the United States of America

All scripture quotations are taken from the Holy Bible, New International Version ® (NIV®).
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by the International Bible Society. Used by permission of
Zondervan Publishing House. All rights reserved.

[Hans Deventer]

Hans,

I'm curious about one thing. I know you quoted the resolution already in this thread, but didn't you also compose a "reasoning/rationale" for the resolution? What was that rationale?

John, this was the entire resolution:

RESOLVED, that Manual 324.9 be added as follows:
To make available for download from www.nazarene.org the complete text of the latest version of the Manual, in a format that can be used on the widest possible range of PC's, PDA's etc.

REASON

According to the Board of General Superintendents, "it is incumbent upon our members to acquint themselves with this Manual", in order to "advance the Kingdom faster and enhance their witness for Christ".

This being a given, probably the best way to do so in our modern times is to use the search options made possible by using the Manual in a digital format. The Adobe's PDF format would probably fit this goal best.

[Hans Deventer]

Well, I gave in and bought the Manual with CD so I can copy and paste text. To my dismay, it comes on a CD that also contains a Bible software package called Bible Explorer. It has the King James Bible and the New King James Bible that will remain unlocked. Then it has an entire CD worth of Bible resources that are only unlocked for 30 days, then you have to buy them.


Scott, this is the same thing they sold in 1997 as well. Useless.

[Hans Deventer]

The only one german printed translation of the manual I ever have had in my hands was from 1979 or 80 and it was just a fragment, unfortunately not often updated. It was nice made, as a stabile plastic ringbook, easy to update. Dark blue with the church enblem in gold on its cover.


Really! They made one in Dutch at the same time, it looked exactly like you describe it. I've been updating it ever since, though, I'm working on the 2005-2009 Manual right now.

[Cindi Hammons]

Yes, and now, my 2001-05 version will no longer allow me to cut and paste. It says, "Access denied." It used to allow me to cut and paste. Oh well. I'm not going to take the risk in buying it again if I can't cut from it.

Cindi H.

[Jon Twitchell]

The CDs expire?

Maybe I'll just forgo a new manual this time around...and just buy one every other quadrennium. I'll just ask all my legal questions on NazNet, someone's bound to know the answer!

Grrrr....

[Hans Deventer]

The CDs expire?

Even if not, the Manual does.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Scott, this is the same thing they sold in 1997 as well. Useless.

I imagine it is a marketing deal between the Bible software company with NPH. It probably makes good financial sense for NPH to do it, but makes the Manual less usable for those who paid for a digital copy.

[Carsten Schermuly]

As I know german and european copyrights, it is not forbidden to convert that PDF document in any other textformat or to use it in any way - only for personally and private use. I think, other countries law will sound similar.

To crack the password is not forbidden as long I do not give the damaged manual to another one. My wife, my children (my household) and I are in this case only one juristic person. That means, to copy that damaged manual version on the computer of one of my family were not against law and also the publishers could not have any argument, not to do so.

It were another thing, I offered that result - the damaged manual or the rest - the manual without password and / or converted - to any other person. That were a violence against the law and I guess, it were against the will of the publishers.

To use a single title, I copied from my damaged version is already a violence, once it is against the will of the publisher. Fact is, "I copied". The same were, I write a copy, no matterc what form, on paper by pencil (or to create a print product) is also like "really copied" on the electronic way.
How to understand a "quote" or a "copy" could be different - after local definitions.

But the sense of the manual is to use it - on the right places. So a confidential way to work with that PDF - file can not be a violence against the law and against the will of the publishers.
We must handle temptation daily and we know once we overstepped the red line.


How To

"Remove PDF master password" by using "pdf-Recover" from
http://shop.pdf-office.com/index.php?language=en
I took the product in second row, described as
"Remove PDF master password" - only for this one and only case, the manual.

Click leads to another page with an input, I had to answer "Name" and "eMailaddress".

Then was sent to me an eMail with a personally coded link where to download the shareware version of "pdf-Recover".

Runnung the program after Setup I got a warning; "Not allowed to do unright with that program" or similar.
It is not our will to do any unright.
After ending, the result is a PDF - file with extension *.tmp, the manual without password.


Then I used the converting program I talked about, "pdf2html".
Converting programs are offered alot - as I have seen today.



Ash on my head!
Teaching crime!


Once I read the manual, I am touched by the holy spirit, talking to me by the titles (I guess, you will feel the same way), the holy spirit was present, the manual was created and updated. This and the love of the Lord do make me unable to misuse the manual in any way.

[Carsten Schermuly]

I own five bibles in HTML.
The hebrew Old Testament,
the Vulgata with both psalm versions,
the english KJV 1611 (not sure, it could be a revision from 18th century),
the german Luther 1912 and
the french Darby 1884.
I created from textfiles, found as "in the public domain" on internet.
I am owner and I could be publisher - without to do any unright - because the source is "PD".

I bought the manual - CD after we talked about on NazNet in relation to General Assembly 2001. I was very enjoyed to see what is packed on! Also some books, I have not read, I have "inhalated" - on one seat.
Then the shareware time run out and I could no more use it, it was locked.

Reading and working with my own bibles, I am not interested in the bible, (or the bibles), coming along on the CD - so, please, for what should I buy a bible, I do not use?

Seen on the price I paid (14 Dollars and something cents), the Nazarene Publishing House made not a profitable deal. Send it to Europe - what international porto is then included?

I think, better were "only the manual" without any other content - and then as textfiles, freely to use (as before - confidential - only on the right places).

[Carsten Schermuly]

Really! They made one in Dutch at the same time, it looked exactly like you describe it. I've been updating it ever since, though, I'm working on the 2005-2009 Manual right now.I still have one exemplar from that time in my family - since years not updated, but I look for newer versions of the manual on other ways ( - what we need is to answer from time to time single questions - it does not need to own all the times a complete copy of the last edition).
But I love that little ringbook - also as a very good realized idea how to handle updates in a simple way (similar like pocket calendars)
and
I love its outsided title page, the cover - the golden enblem on dark blue. It is a joy to see it.
I also love the dove in the new NazNet enblem - it leads my thoughts in a very good direction.

[Carsten Schermuly]

For someone, reading the manual


by using phantasy,


it is nearby the same as to watch the Jesus - Film or to listen to an evangelist. Strong stuff, not easy to swallow.

[Gina Stevenson]

So far as I can tell I was able to copy and paste the whole thing, section by section, into a .doc file. It took about 10 minutes and I then saved it to my computer.

Well, s'pose that whoever puts out that particular Bible program that they put on there helps foot the bill, because it gets their program exposure ... that way NPH could make some $$$ while putting out the manual for yet more $$$.

Publishing houses are for-profit, usually, no? ;)

[Carsten Schermuly]

The description for the manual CD by Nazarene Publishing House teaches, the literature on the disk had a worth of 2.700 Dollars. I have no doubts, it is correct. This will truely be a reason to block the full version using of the CD after the shareware time runs out. What, I would work to get a saved amount of 2.700 Dollars and should give my work free away for everybody? At least I have a family to feed. I would do the same and protect my rights.
On the other side,
the question is not answered why it is not allowed to handle the manual (and nothing else) free, without restrictions. Such a textfile like this PDF document - and then good for a text search were what is wanted.

[Paul Whitaker]

http://www.uknazarene.org/pdf/Manual2005_09.pdf

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

I'll just ask all my legal questions on NazNet, someone's bound to know the answer!



*laughs*

Very true!

[Carsten Schermuly]

I have questions, I never would ask public. For this I cracked the password.

[Carsten Schermuly]

... painful questions.

[Hans Deventer]

http://www.uknazarene.org/pdf/Manual2005_09.pdf

Mmm, interesting. Looks like a scan turned to PDF, but apparently they were not allowed to enable copy and pasting either.

[Carsten Schermuly]

See a frameset as screenshot (screensize 1024 x 768), including at left a menu and at right a little search script (it is really poor enaugh at present, I will better it, for example to highlight found searchterms), in center will appear the pages of the manual.
1008 x 718 - 54 KB
http://haufenzeug.de/cs/pics_for_NazNet/inc/pic/frameset_a.gif

Note the address "localhost" - it is needed to run the pages on a server - otherwise the search script (written in PHP) would not work. I am not able to write a VB - script or a search in another way for Win, so I do it as I do for internet - and to have a text search inside the opened browser is much more comfortable than to run the system - search and open from case to case another browser - window. The only one thing thesearch can do at present, in case, in search result are found index - pages, they are red coloured - so I scrolled the search frame for the screenshot down to its end (scrollbar at right is cut off).

See page 27 turned for 90 degrees
screensize 1024 (large)
http://haufenzeug.de/cs/pics_for_NazNet/dm_027_1024.htm
screensize 800 (small)
http://haufenzeug.de/cs/pics_for_NazNet/dm_027_800.htm

Once you are unhappy with your manual - version, I will help you to get it in another way - similar like I have it now. Please lift up your finger.
Please note,
the converting program (converting from PDF to HTML) made mistakes, right now I have not found all of the mistakes, daily I get a new mistake and have to correct.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Mmm, interesting. Looks like a scan turned to PDF, but apparently they were not allowed to enable copy and pasting either.It were nice to have a small text what the publishers think how to handle the manual - what is allowed, what is not allowed. To have nothing, I am unsure - "is it already crime to convert to HTML for private usings?" etc, there are more unanswered questions.
On doubts
my desire is not to make anything public. I only like to have the manual to read it the same way I read the bible and daily watchword.

[Carsten Schermuly]

Alot of very, very good thoughts, it is a joy to read and read.

What do you think, is the most important phrase of the manual?

[Hans Deventer]

What do you think, is the most important phrase of the manual?

IV. The Holy Scriptures
4. We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation, so that whatever is not contained therein is not to be enjoined as an article of faith.

For two reasons


This puts our faith in God, the Inspirator of the Scriptures, not in the Scriptures themselves. A subtle but crucial difference. The Bible did not die for us, Jesus did.

It makes clear that there can be no article of faith that is not based on the Scriptures. So whatever we find important, unless the Scriptures say so, it is not important.

[Carsten Schermuly]

That is really a heavyweight. It clears alot.
Very good thought.
By that is really alot said.


My thoughts circled around the relationship of the Lord to men.
That has to do with the motive to build or to be a church.

Thank you! You gave me stuff to think about for a good while. :basic01

[Carsten Schermuly]

quote from page 17 near end

"Hannah Whitall Smith, a Quaker and popular holiness re-
vivalist, published The Christian's Secret of a Happy Life
(1875), a classic text in Christian spirituality."


This small book I had in the eighties as german translation, I begun to read on a sunday afternoon, once I got it from our Berlin churches book table. I continued next morning in a pretty fllled public bus on the way to my workplace. Hanging by one hand under the ceyling, I held the book near my nose because there was no other place to read in a bit more comfortable position.

A young Lady byside me, asked me to turn one page back once I looked on a next page, "Just two or three phrases unto end." she said. I returned to the last page and once she finished, she said "OK" and we ccontinued to read. Later we got free seats and ended that chapter in common. We talked about - what we think about the text we have read. Once she must leave the bus, I asked her to take that book. I did know, on that home booktable are many exemplars, it was easy for me to get another one. She was very enjoyed and went out by a "Hearty thanks!"

Then I have seen how interesting this book for many people was - and ordered a parcel with 50 exemplars. It was cheap paperback - and I got rebate points, so one book came out for about 3 DM ~ 1 Dollar Fifty.
I had always a gift, that was seen with joy and where ever I went to - I had two or three of the books with me.

Often we do not like Monday mornings.
I like to think back to that Monday morning in the bus.