What is it to know God?

[Hans Deventer]

As we all know, our Lord has said that eternal life is knowing God.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent

So it is by no means a trivial question to ask, what is it to know God? Hannie and I talked it over this afternoon and it turned out we had some similar ideas about it, but also some different ideas. So I'm really wondering, what is it to know God in the Biblical sense? We agreed it is an intimate knowledge, it's not like I know our queen, for instance. I'd recognize her, I'd know about her, but I would not really know her as I know for instance Hannie.

Any thoughts?

[BobHunt]

Hans,
If youwere to take 10 people, one being my wife, and have them walk down a hall, I would be able to tell you which one is her by the sound of her shoes hitting the floor.
By being in a close day by day relationship, there are some things that no one else could duplicate.
I think as we walk day by day, read His letter, obey every time He speaks, we grow to know Him more and more. The old scripture says "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another...." I think that means with God not only with other people.
There used to be an olds song we sang in church, now outdated in most Holiness churches I guess because of the new generation of seekers. It spoke of "Oh the pure delight of a single hour that before thy throne I spend..." but so many of us do not feel it is pure delight. People used to talk about working through the day, and suddenly being drawn to prayer by the Spirit talking to them, and they had to put down whatever they were doing and head for the closet of prayer. Nowadays, we have lost that hearing, and we dont feel that call as much.
Just some random thoughts...

[Hans Deventer]

Yes indeed, that is one of the key aspects. Last night, thinking about what it is to know God, 1 John 4 came to my mind:

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. (1 John 4:7-8)

[Dave McClung]

Hans

In the English language, the word "know" is used in a number of different contexts. I have studied what it means to "know" in a legal context. In a legal context, "to know" requires a combination of "belief" and "truth."

The emotions involved in a "strong belief" and "knowledge" are exactly the same. A person can not be confident that a "strong belief" is "Knowledge" based strictly on their feelings. For example, in the trial law it is well known that "eye witness" testimony is unreliable. It is not uncommon at all for two people who have observed the same event to have differing "strong beliefs" about it. Both hold their belief strongly, but they can't both be true. One has "knowledge", the other has a "strong belief." The thing that determines which is which is the truth. The witness who believes the truth has "knowledge", while the other witness has only an erroneous belief.

A person can have confidence that their "strong belief" is "knowledge" only after a lot of testing their belief against objective criteria. Confidence that one's strong belief is knowledge is what we call "faith."

Many Christians seem to define "knowledge" as the combination of a "strong belief" and "faith." Thus, they arrive at the point that they believe if one believes something with enough faith, then their belief will be the truth. No!! The truth is the truth whether anyone believes it our not!!

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you have known me, you will also know my Father. From now on you know him and have seen him."

Knowledge of God is simply belief in the truth. As we walk with him, our faith (confidence in the correctness of our belief) becomes stronger, but the truth never changes. It isn't our "knowledge" that increases, it is our "faith."

So we "know" God the instant we believe in the truth. Our "faith" (confidence in our knowledge) increases over time as we walk with him.

[Ian Gentles]

I feel scriptures talk of an intimate relationship with God that today many christians never acheive. Maybe its because we live in such materialistic societies. I dont know the full answer Hans, I just feel its more than many of us have acheived! :(

[Doug Kitchen]

Hans

In the English language, the word "know" is used in a number of different contexts. I have studied what it means to "know" in a legal context. In a legal context, "to know" requires a combination of "belief" and "truth."

The emotions involved in a "strong belief" and "knowledge" are exactly the same. A person can not be confident that a "strong belief" is "Knowledge" based strictly on their feelings. For example, in the trial law it is well known that "eye witness" testimony is unreliable. It is not uncommon at all for two people who have observed the same event to have differing "strong beliefs" about it. Both hold their belief strongly, but they can't both be true. One has "knowledge", the other has a "strong belief." The thing that determines which is which is the truth. The witness who believes the truth has "knowledge", while the other witness has only an erroneous belief.

A person can have confidence that their "strong belief" is "knowledge" only after a lot of testing their belief against objective criteria. Confidence that one's strong belief is knowledge is what we call "faith."

Many Christians seem to define "knowledge" as the combination of a "strong belief" and "faith." Thus, they arrive at the point that they believe if one believes something with enough faith, then their belief will be the truth. No!! The truth is the truth whether anyone believes it our not!!

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you have known me, you will also know my Father. From now on you know him and have seen him."

Knowledge of God is simply belief in the truth. As we walk with him, our faith (confidence in the correctness of our belief) becomes stronger, but the truth never changes. It isn't our "knowledge" that increases, it is our "faith."

So we "know" God the instant we believe in the truth. Our "faith" (confidence in our knowledge) increases over time as we walk with him.

Dave,

Thank you for the analysis. It is useful in this discussion and also to understand and refute some "name it and claim it" ideas. As an analogy from science, before Newton described gravity in mathematical terms, gravity existed. However we describe an apple falling from a tree that doesn't change the truth.

I'd be curious what it means "legally" to use the expression "know a person"? I suspect that in legal proceedings, "know" is too general. I can identify a person, speak with a person, email, phone-call them, etc. but know seems like it is too vague.

In conversation we often use the term, "know", about people not just ideas. I seem to "know" a lot of people but really I am acquainted with their work, met them briefly, or spent a lifetime with them or any number of different levels of relationship. I know some people exist, I know them by name, face, work, actions, location, etc. The longer I know someone, the more I know about them. My confidence in them may increase, however, I have no more additional faith in their existence.

As I think about this, I realize that I know many people but many of them don't know me. I know Prince Charles exists - I saw him on TV last night, but he doesn't know me at all. God spoke to Moses like a man speaks to a friend - maybe we really know that we know God when He walks with us, not just when we claim to walk with Him.

Time to rake the leaves...

Doug

[Dave McClung]

In a slightly different context, Dr. Lyle Pointer defines "know a person" as each of you know the other's name when you see each other. He claims that an "average" American only knows about 50 people.

We have had this discussion on NazNet in the past. Using his definition, I "know" several thousand people.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Hans

In the English language, the word "know" is used in a number of different contexts. I have studied what it means to "know" in a legal context. In a legal context, "to know" requires a combination of "belief" and "truth."

The emotions involved in a "strong belief" and "knowledge" are exactly the same. A person can not be confident that a "strong belief" is "Knowledge" based strictly on their feelings. For example, in the trial law it is well known that "eye witness" testimony is unreliable. It is not uncommon at all for two people who have observed the same event to have differing "strong beliefs" about it. Both hold their belief strongly, but they can't both be true. One has "knowledge", the other has a "strong belief." The thing that determines which is which is the truth. The witness who believes the truth has "knowledge", while the other witness has only an erroneous belief.

A person can have confidence that their "strong belief" is "knowledge" only after a lot of testing their belief against objective criteria. Confidence that one's strong belief is knowledge is what we call "faith."

Many Christians seem to define "knowledge" as the combination of a "strong belief" and "faith." Thus, they arrive at the point that they believe if one believes something with enough faith, then their belief will be the truth. No!! The truth is the truth whether anyone believes it our not!!

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you have known me, you will also know my Father. From now on you know him and have seen him."

Knowledge of God is simply belief in the truth. As we walk with him, our faith (confidence in the correctness of our belief) becomes stronger, but the truth never changes. It isn't our "knowledge" that increases, it is our "faith."

So we "know" God the instant we believe in the truth. Our "faith" (confidence in our knowledge) increases over time as we walk with him.
May i pass your response onward to some of our new Christians?

[Dave McClung]

May i pass your response onward to some of our new Christians?
Sure. You may use it anyway you choose.

Dave

[Russell Metcalfe]

After a great deal of thought and prayer and a board retreat and more, our church chose a mission statement (years ago now-- and the new leadership has moved on to a new one) - that simply stated hat our mission was:

TO KNOW GOD,
AND
TO PROVIDE A CLIMATE IN WHICH EACH PERSON CAN COME TO FULL SPIRITUAL POTENTIAL IN JESUS CHRIST

and I felt (still do) that with proper understanding "To know God" could have stated it all.

I recall Reuben Welch preaching under a great anointing saying "I know God! I know Him! (and here he emphasized that all his life he had been privileged to be part of the fellowship of the church) but then he got very quiet when he went on: "But sometimes I feel that I hardly know Him at all!" and by this he was clearly NOT saying he didn't know Him-- he made that clear-- but that God is so great and so "beyond" as well as here and present-- that it is the work of a lifetime and beyond to KNOW Him-- and the joy and privilege we have is to KNOW Him and to press into that knowledge.

I'm sure I'm not making myself clear when I say this is my life passion-- to KNOW God!

[Hans Deventer]

I'm sure I'm not making myself clear when I say this is my life passion-- to KNOW God!

I think you are. I also agree. And I am struggling to understand what it really means.

When I think about knowing God, I cannot help but think about Jesus. He seemed to know a lot about what God wanted. Three examples:

JN 11:41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me." 43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

MT 26:42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

JN 14:8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
JN 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

He knew what God wanted Him to do, not just in a general way (as I think, most of us will know), but quite specifically. He apparently knew God wanted to raise Lazarus from the death and hence, could speak with authority.
But I don't have the faintest idea who God would want to heal of a cold, let alone to raise from the death!

So like Reuben Welch, I know Him, "but sometimes I feel that I hardly know Him at all". And make that sometimes into a "often" when it comes down to specific situations. And that makes me wonder, to what extent do I really know Him?

[Russell Metcalfe]

I am in agreement with you in believing we get to know God through getting more and more to know Jesus; it was Stanley Jones (old Methodist missionary) who said "We have a Christ-like God!"

Hans,
I love this subject but don't feel I can "make sense" in this kind of communication very well- that is express myself without appearing to pontificate OR speak lightly of to me very wonderful and serious matters; let me say this and quit: in coming to know God there seems to be a balance between extreme tenderness and even solicitousness on God's part AND the need for great reverence, even fear the more we get to know Him. YES he is "Abba" as some say "Daddy" but also He is holy in a sense that is beyond the range of our discussion and that balance-- coming "boldly to the throne of grace" as a child to a loving Father AND not taking God for granted--

see-- I'm not getting across what I wanted to say-- anyway it is a wonderful quest -- we're on it "together" even if we're "strangers" (brothers who haven't got well acquianted yet)

Russ

[Grandma Carolyn]

As we all know, our Lord has said that eternal life is knowing God.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent

So it is by no means a trivial question to ask, what is it to know God? Hannie and I talked it over this afternoon and it turned out we had some similar ideas about it, but also some different ideas. So I'm really wondering, what is it to know God in the Biblical sense? We agreed it is an intimate knowledge, it's not like I know our queen, for instance. I'd recognize her, I'd know about her, but I would not really know her as I know for instance Hannie.

Any thoughts?


Hans, that is why I love the scripture that I have chose to be my promise in my posts.

Oh, to know Him. Hosea gives the promise that as we seek Him, ( and my paraphase walk with Him) He will respond to us. It is a promise with encouragement. It is a promise for us who know Him and have relationship with Him, but it is a promise for all who are made in His image with a soul and a spirit that would hunger for God. The promise is true. He does respond to us each and everytime we call to Him.

What an adventure our lives can be as we walk with Him learning more about Him all the time in our walk. But, since we are on a journey there is always something new for us to learn. The most precious thing that I have learned about our Lord is His faithfulness to us. He is faithful and He keeps His word to us.

Am I rambling? :)

**GC**

[Paul Whitaker]

A bit off topic but--

In the 1970s Reuben preached a sermon on John 17 - "The High Priestly Prayer". This was when he was filling the pulpit at Pasadena First Church of the Nazarene during the ministry of Earl Lee.

That sermon was sent to us in Africa, we played it over several times and sent it to Pentecostal Holiness Missionaries for their enjoyment. The missionary wife contacted us to say that she had worn out the tape while listening to it. I contacted Pasadena First and they sent me another copy of the tape which I sent on to our missionary friends.

That said to say this--

If you could get a copy of that tape I believe you would be deeply moved by the presentation.

I am not sure how many years they keep the sermons. If they had it on a master - it would be worth getting.