If you could start from scratch, what kind of church would you build

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I just read an article that gives some pretty good advice to Newspapers on how to survive:
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=032206B

As I read it, I got to thinking about how that article might apply to the church. If you were starting a church (I guess I should add, a Christian church, fully committed to following Jesus) what changes would you make to the current structure? If it was totally within your power to structure things as you like, what would you do?

[Gord Evans]

I think I would start with a pinch of Brad, a sprinkle of Roland, a dusting of Karen and a dollop of Emmy. Blend well until nearly smooth. Cover this with prayer for a time. Ask for a filling of the Holy Spirit. Then wait. Let it rise! Pray for workers in the harvest-field. Heat it up with praise and worship and thanksgiving. Then pray somemore. Then watch as Jesus Christ builds His church.

[Billy Cox]

Although every church plant theoretically starts with a blank slate, as planning proceeds one realizes that there are practical reasons for nearly everything that is done in churches in general. Maybe a new church has some of the trendy trappings of being 'cutting edge', but if you look at the core activities of the church they are not so unique.

[Hans Deventer]

I think I would start with a pinch of Brad, a sprinkle of Roland, a dusting of Karen and a dollop of Emmy. Blend well until nearly smooth. Cover this with prayer for a time. Ask for a filling of the Holy Spirit. Then wait. Let it rise! Pray for workers in the harvest-field. Heat it up with praise and worship and thanksgiving. Then pray somemore. Then watch as Jesus Christ builds His church.

I really like your "structure", Gord.

[Michael B. Ross]

Scott, your post caught my attention. I teach a class at AU for adult students getting their B.A. Every class I teach is comprised mostly of church dropouts. For instance, the class I teach now has 15 students. One has never attended, 11 have dropped out after longtime involvement, 2 attend regularly but are unhappy with their church, and 1 is very happy with her church. (BTW, she is Roman Catholic.)

In the session on faith communities, I give them an excercise to design the ideal church. They usually are in groups of 3 or 4.

Consistently, their reports are a mirror of present structures. For example, they buy a building, find a pastor, meet on Sundays, have worhsip and education. Ironically, they describe what they left.

When I ask them if that is what they want why did they leave it, they get blank looks on their faces. Maybe their answers show a lack of creativity. When I press them, however, they begin to describe the ideal church in relational terms. They mention acceptance, non-judgmental, belonging, like-minded people, and the over-used term--where everyone is "vulnerable."

Sadly, they seldom or never mention doctrine, the Sacraments or a responsibility to the community and the world. They simply want a place where they belong to a group of people like themselves.

It seems that people who drop out of church do so because they no longer feel needed/wanted. People who leave a church and join another do so because of changes in their first church that made them uncomfortable.

I just read an article that gives some pretty good advice to Newspapers on how to survive:
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=032206B

As I read it, I got to thinking about how that article might apply to the church. If you were starting a church (I guess I should add, a Christian church, fully committed to following Jesus) what changes would you make to the current structure? If it was totally within your power to structure things as you like, what would you do?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Thanks for the replies everyone -- I do think it is an interesting topic.

I have a hard time thinking about how I would start with a blank sheet of paper to describe the church I want because I am a dyed in the wool realist. I don't say that to my credit, but I have always worked that way.

So, I start out looking at what I have and how to make it better than starting out with zero and deciding what I really want to see.

However, in light of the article I linked, that is really what Reynolds is doing. He is describing the newspaper industry and how he thinks it should respond to the Internet age. He says that the industry sees itself in light of printing presses and paper when it really needs to focus on its role as news gathering and reporting businesses.

I sense a real connection here to the the church, not as buildings and programs but as something more fundamental, but I am having trouble starting from a blank page and saying what it is I think the church should look like and how it should carry out its mission.

If a start such a project by describing buildings and furnishings I think I am making the same mistake that Reynolds says the newspapers make when they think in terms of presses and paper.

Still (as I ramble on) I do think that church furnishings say something that I want said. I still think that sacred space and symbols matter and that they have a place in the church I am describing.

Relationships - of course! I would design a church (people that is) that is in an open, flowing relationship with God, that loves one another, and seeks and welcomes the lost.

Doctrine - yes. Biblical and real. Frankly, I am more Wesleyan today than I have ever been in my life. The church I designed would be clearly Wesleyan.

I am blather on a bit more on this later, but I imagine this disjointed post has lost most folks already -- that's okay, I nearly lost myself! :)

[William Hunter]

Thanks for the replies everyone -- I do think it is an interesting topic.

I have a hard time thinking about how I would start with a blank sheet of paper to describe the church I want because I am a dyed in the wool realist. I don't say that to my credit, but I have always worked that way.

So, I start out looking at what I have and how to make it better than starting out with zero and deciding what I really want to see.

However, in light of the article I linked, that is really what Reynolds is doing. He is describing the newspaper industry and how he thinks it should respond to the Internet age. He says that the industry sees itself in light of printing presses and paper when it really needs to focus on its role as news gathering and reporting businesses.

I sense a real connection here to the the church, not as buildings and programs but as something more fundamental, but I am having trouble starting from a blank page and saying what it is I think the church should look like and how it should carry out its mission.

If a start such a project by describing buildings and furnishings I think I am making the same mistake that Reynolds says the newspapers make when they think in terms of presses and paper.

Still (as I ramble on) I do think that church furnishings say something that I want said. I still think that sacred space and symbols matter and that they have a place in the church I am describing.

Relationships - of course! I would design a church (people that is) that is in an open, flowing relationship with God, that loves one another, and seeks and welcomes the lost.

Doctrine - yes. Biblical and real. Frankly, I am more Wesleyan today than I have ever been in my life. The church I designed would be clearly Wesleyan.

I am blather on a bit more on this later, but I imagine this disjointed post has lost most folks already -- that's okay, I nearly lost myself! :)

An interesting insight on the church, ancient church, is given to us in the commentary series, "A Bible Commentary in the Wesleyan Tradition," in the one on Acts. On pp. 46-49 there is a brief but thought provoking listing of what the church does.

Here, the thing that most often brings people the first time are friends and family. Once they get here, most stay. The first two reasons given concern the unity they sense, and then the love family feel we have among each other. These seem to grow as the congregation grows. The next thing they mention is the strong Bible preaching/teaching they find. Then are the children's and youth ministries. It is my goal to see us not do alot of programs, but do a few ministries really well so that my people are not spread too thin to be effective, and that we resource well the ministries we do have. It is interesting that it is my laypeople who come to talk to me about possible new ministries and as they talk yo find that have given it some thought. Those who come with a real passion for what they are talking about are usually taken very seriously. I find that the passion for some area of ministry in people who are solid spiritually is a good sign of God's leadership here. A few well done ministries seem to produce far better than just alot of programs. For instance, our new Bible discussion group taking place in the home of a family who has been with us about 2 1/2 yrs. has already brought two families into the church. The group has not been together for two months yet. The couple came to me with a real passion for this and spent a coupleof months looking over resources we recommended. They put alot of planning into it and did alot of praying. This is really exciting to watch.

I like the format given in this commentary. I wonder how many of us do these things really well, or just go through the motions. Do the people in leadership of various ministries see that as their ministry and their congregation to lead and grow in the Lord, and to see that pastoral care is donw within the group? Personal responsibility for other people and their souls is wonderful to watch as your laypeople pick that up in the spirit of Eph. 4:11-16 and in Acts 2.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Doctrine - yes. Biblical and real. Frankly, I am more Wesleyan today than I have ever been in my life. The church I designed would be clearly Wesleyan.



Interesting how the years rearrange our beliefs, thinking patterns and concepts for living. Garry would love to journey to walk the original steps of Wesley.

i think that the Biblical view of the church will have to be the first step in establishing a church. i think that the Biblical view determines the codes of ethics, foundations of boundaries, determines sacred order, defines priorities, determines evangelistic processes, interprets the Creed, and focuses on the same view of Christ's interaction within our daily lives.

[Bruce Carriker]

I guess my recipe would be a BIG portion of John Wesley; lesser but equal portions of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Walter Rauschenbusch, Ron Sider, Jim Wallis, Cardinal John Newman; with a sprinkle of P.F. Bresee, Fletcher Tink, Ron Benefiel to top it off.

The worship service would be from the Book of Common Prayer, or for those who could not bring themselves to do that, Wesley's service book for Methodists in America.

[Michael B. Ross]

Belinda, when I first read your post, I thought I might challenge it (kindly and for discussion sake, of course). But, I re-read it and believe I fully agree. What I first thought you were saying was that we should imitate the early church as often is suggested by those who feel the church in Acts is to be modeled.

They had their problems, however. Division, tension, "fussin,'" deceit etc were not uncommon.

But, you are suggesting the teachings and spirit of Christ to be the foundation of the church, in other words, what we believe and how we treat one another. To that I would say "Amen." Your post is encouraging.

Interesting how the years rearrange our beliefs, thinking patterns and concepts for living. Garry would love to journey to walk the original steps of Wesley.

i think that the Biblical view of the church will have to be the first step in establishing a church. i think that the Biblical view determines the codes of ethics, foundations of boundaries, determines sacred order, defines priorities, determines evangelistic processes, interprets the Creed, and focuses on the same view of Christ's interaction within our daily lives.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Interesting how the years rearrange our beliefs, thinking patterns and concepts for living.

After I said what I did about being more Wesleyan now than ever in my life I thought that that is a bit inaccurate. Looking back, I have had a pretty Wesleyan view throughout my life, but I now more clearly see it to be Wesleyan.

My pastors did a pretty good job of framing many things for me. The fact that it was "Wesleyan" didn't soak in, but the approach was definately there. As a result, I landed in the Wesleyan camp when I started dealing with real life issues even though I often struggled with how to explain why I believed as I did.

By the way, the doctrinal discussions on NazNet, especially in the early years, helped me better understand why I believed what I did. I can't say that some major theological issue was changed for me, but NazNet helped me clarify some things that I believed to be true.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

But, you are suggesting the teachings and spirit of Christ to be the foundation of the church, in other words, what we believe and how we treat one another.

indeed -

i thought long and hard about how to say what i was meaning, for i have been startled to find that words are only letters put together until a person or organization gives them life - meaning. It has been an amazing journey to realize that one person can mean 'live as Christ would live' one way and someone else interpret those words totally different. *nods to Scott* NazNet has firmly planted many things in my heart. NazNet has been where i have bled and healed and been reborn - time after time - rooted often in defining concepts of living as Christ.

edited because i didn't finish my thought - - If ones who geniunely love Christ and desire to follow His teachings are abiding beneath the same roof but have different beliefs of how to apply those principles - there is war and strife/confusion and division. Communication issues? Belief differences? Can they be overcome. i believe anything can be overcome through the mercies and graces of our Lord - -but i am old and weary of meaningless battles. Battles where energies can be used in positive profitable ways. Seeking to understand is only half the issue - the other side is accepting and giving room for embracement - or can we. Thus, why i concluded that for me today, how one defines those things determines how we connect for the Unity of the Body of Christ. United we stand - Divided we fall.

Thank you for understanding. i have found that understanding is a gift not to be taken lightly.

Blessings and thoughtfulness,
belinda

[Ron Davis]

i think that the Biblical view of the church will have to be the first step in establishing a church. i think that the Biblical view determines the codes of ethics, foundations of boundaries, determines sacred order, defines priorities, determines evangelistic processes, interprets the Creed, and focuses on the same view of Christ's interaction within our daily lives.

I'm not sure what you mean by "interprests the creed". Isn't it the other way around?

[Ron Davis]

Even with a blank page I would start with what elements would we consider essential.

A partial list:
1. Eucharist
2. Scripture reading
3. Corporate prayer
4. Praise

Once we have the list the creativity comes in how we do these things. I was able to attend a couple of services at Solomon's Porch in Minneapolis. It helped to see some possibilities.

The younger set does seem more interested in the relational aspect than in style. The more I reflect on the church and the changes that need made the more I agree with them.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

I'm not sure what you mean by "interprests the creed". Isn't it the other way around?


Hi Ron

i have found that words within any document are only valuable when the reader gives them life and breath - meaning.

The Creed - means a lot to me but i can't assume that it will have the same meaning to you. If our beliefs and interpretations of those beliefs and applications of those beliefs are the same - then our interpretation of The Creed will be the same. Otherwise - i can't say with certainty.

[Bruce Carriker]

Hi Ron

The Creed - means a lot to me but i can't assume that it will have the same meaning to you. If our beliefs and interpretations of those beliefs and applications of those beliefs are the same - then our interpretation of The Creed will be the same. Otherwise - i can't say with certainty.

Apostles' Creed? Nicene Creed? Which would you use?

[Ann Smith]

I grew up in a church planter's home. Therefore, my views are a lot like what i saw at home. Start having a home bible Study. Once a nucleous is obtained, start having services. Once the congregation gets large enough to do so, start a building plan. Teach and preach. Have frequent fellowship gatherings. Visit and visit people. Find ways to become part of the community. Reach out, reach out. I am not sure I would affiliate with a denomination at first. It would depend on what my personal situation was. My daddy would roll over in his grave about that. He always put the CON sign up first thing.
Ann

[Gord Evans]

But, you are suggesting the teachings and spirit of Christ to be the foundation of the church, in other words, what we believe and how we treat one another. To that I would say "Amen." Your post is encouraging.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with the water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. -- Ephesians 5:25-27

The Word sees humanity from Creation through Eternity. This timeless Vision through eternal eyes, reveals the new Jerusalem even in the midst of the mire.

In these few words of Paul to the Ephesian church we understand that Christ took His bride, the Church, to Himself after washing her in cleansing water, Himself.

We also know and understand that the Church is a group of sinful, confused, anguished people constantly tempted by the powers of lust and greed and always entangled in rivalry and competition.

At once, the Church is the holy and faultless body made Christ-like through Baptism and the Eucharist, and also the broken bodies of all the people who are its members.

Only when viewed through the eyes of Christ are the two compatible, and perfect, and one ... essential.

[Kevin Bowser]

Here is a way to try out your ideas before you actually start building with real bricks and mortar. :basic05

http://echurch.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

[Gary Swartzlander]

I love it. I may actually order that. Sounds like fun.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Well, I did start this church from scratch and I mostly did it as I wanted to...


We have no Sunday evening service and don't plan to start one.
We have home-based "Bible and Life Teams," instead of a Wednesday night prayer meeting or service.
We still have not bothered to officially organize any auxillaries. We have no SS Super. or officers, No NYI Pres. or officers, and no NMI Pres. or officers. We have Sunday School teachers and teen group without those "structures." We also have mission emphasis without the NMI structure (reading books, alabaster, deputation guest).
Our worship is casual (every great now and again someone might wear a tie but not me) and contemporary. We power-point our lyrics and don't sing old hymns. We also wear name tags every Sunday.
I do have a fairly "normal" church board as far as structure is concerned. (Personally I would prefer a board of ministry leaders instead of elected members. At the moment I don't have enough ministry leaders to do that but it could be in our future....)


Having said that, I will also say that I started five years ago and if I were to do it again, I'd do it differently. Most of the stuff above is fairly "surface." There is one major "deep" change I'd make that is probably the only thing that would be considered "different." In fact, I may still transition to some form of it.

However, I'm not quite ready yet to disclose what that would be.... Jon Long may be lurking!!!

Wilson

[Bruce Carriker]

I love it. I may actually order that. Sounds like fun.

Wonder if it can be played interactively? We could have tournaments to see who could build the biggest church.

[Kevin Bowser]

Gary,

There is a network version...: basic03

"With network play enabled, you can steal members from other churches and earn points just like you saved them yourself."