Pastors and Car Buying

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Wanda's "Scooter" thread reminded me of a short opinion column I read recently.

Here is the slightly modified question(s).

When a pastor buys a car should he/she take into consideration the "image" issue?

If you think, yes, then what image should pastor be most trying to project? Cool and desirable? Conservative? Frugal? Patriotic (as in American's buing American, etc.)? Something else?

Wilson

[Pete Vecchi]

My reply is that image should not be a factor. I think each pastor's situation is different, and each pastor should get the type of vehicle he or she needs.

[Billy Cox]

So...which is preferable...to spend $30,000 on a minivan, or to spend $20,000 on a 'sporty' sedan?

If one is a pastor, the answer is obviously to spend more money on the vehicle that has greater utility.

[Bruce Carriker]

This is America. Buy what you want. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks. It's your business, not theirs.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

No constructive answer -- just a question. Do you think that pastors are somehow in a category different than other people when it comes to buying cars? If so, why?



Wanda's "Scooter" thread reminded me of a short opinion column I read recently.

Here is the slightly modified question(s).

When a pastor buys a car should he/she take into consideration the "image" issue?

If you think, yes, then what image should pastor be most trying to project? Cool and desirable? Conservative? Frugal? Patriotic (as in American's buing American, etc.)? Something else?

Wilson

[Jim Franklin]

Let's take this a step farther. Supposing the pastor or thier spouse has a rich uncle or parent who wishes to give their young pastor relative a Lexus and this his first church is struggleing to meet its obligations, should perception, image and public relations then require the young pastor to sell the gift to help the church?
My dad in his last pastorate 55 years ago followed a young pastor who received $25/wk salary and went out and signed up for a car for which the payments were $100/mon. When we were told about it by the members they said that each month he would come around to a different member and say that the Lord had laid it on his heart to ask that member for that month's car payment. Not wise.

[Barbara Moulton]

When we were in The Salvation Army (before they started leasing cars for all their officers), there were restrictions on what kind of cars Officers could own. Luxury cars were seen to be inconsistent with the image that the SA wanted for its officers.

Now that we don't have those restrictions, we generally own cars that, if we had bought new, would have cost over $32,000 (CAN) However we always buy second hand, when a lease is turned in.

And then we drive the car for years and years and years :-)

I think back to the string of cheap clunkers that my parents use to own and I think I much prefer to own a good quality car that I trust to get me from point A to point B. I don't know how many times our family was stuck in some parking lot when I was growing up because the car wouldn't start.

I wouldn't get a super luxury car as a pastor. Our car is middle of the road of what the people in our congregation drive.

But I wouldn't presume to tell other pastors what they should do.

[Beth Larpenter-Shurbutt]

I don't feel that there should be a double standard for pastors and the congregation when it comes to something on what we drive.

Personally, I feel that my vehicle's sole purpose if for transportation to and from two points! I would want it to be dependable and something that I could afford to buy as well maintain and operate.

If I buy a car for the purpose of making a statement, then I feel that is wrong. It's easy to get too much pride in something and to me that would be wrong.

I'm reminded again of the scripture and a little song that the former Children's Evangelist, Ava Beaty Laider sang,
"Where Your Treasure Is,
There Will Your Heart Be Also!"

Is it wrong to drive a fancy automobile? I'm not sure. It would be for me. First of all I couldn't afford it and it would not be a necessary thing in my life.
But, it's also one of those things that falls into how you feel about Stewardship!

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Beth

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I think it works both ways. I have seen people take great pride in the fact that they were so poor that all they could afford to drive was an old clunker.


I don't feel that there should be a double standard for pastors and the congregation when it comes to something on what we drive.

Personally, I feel that my vehicle's sole purpose if for transportation to and from two points! I would want it to be dependable and something that I could afford to buy as well maintain and operate.

If I buy a car for the purpose of making a statement, then I feel that is wrong. It's easy to get too much pride in something and to me that would be wrong.

I'm reminded again of the scripture and a little song that the former Children's Evangelist, Ava Beaty Laider sang,
"Where Your Treasure Is,
There Will Your Heart Be Also!"

Is it wrong to drive a fancy automobile? I'm not sure. It would be for me. First of all I couldn't afford it and it would not be a necessary thing in my life.
But, it's also one of those things that falls into how you feel about Stewardship!

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Beth

[Barb Bouldrey]

You should buy what your budget affords, no matter what your occupation.

We have an evangelist friend who was given an expensive car. Even after he had 200,000 miles on it there were people who remarked about how could he afford such a car? Some people did not want to give him a large revival offering because of the car he drove. WRONG ATTITUDES.

We should not judge a pastor by the car he/she drives. We have pastors on our district that drive Harley's and wear leather jackets when they do.

Barb

[Marg Webb]

Let's look at it psychologically . Why does one think it is any of their business what their Pastor drives?. Where does that thought start from? Notice the word, "start"???
Marg.

[Sharon Isley]

Funny you should be talking about this. My family just recently had to buy a new car.

Our 2001 Mitsubishi had over 200,000 miles on it, and we were facing several very expensive repairs. Right now we don't have the money for that. Things are so tight. We still owe a couple thousand on it. We weren't expecting to put 180 miles a day on our car when we bought it!

We found a car that is one of the lowest priced cars I've seen in a long time. The payments are actually less, even after rolling over our old debt, than what we were paying before. And we are going to save $40 a month in gas, based on what the mileage is proving to me.

What is scary is, how it looks. Here we are facing a financial crisis of sorts, though God has provided in such amazing ways. And we end up with a new car that looks expensive, even if we know that we are actually saving money in our monthly budget because of this, and avoided the repair costs.

Like it or not, people do judge by appearances. But we know we made a wise choice. We now can get to our jobs without the fear of tie rod irons or the CV joint falling off, or having hte steering belt break, or the transmission going out.

In case any of you are curious, we bought a Scion XA. It looks soooo cool!

[Shawn Flynn]

My pastor/future father-in-law is a bivocational and has worked at a local Mercedes dealership as a mechanic for ~30 yrs. So, of course he drives a Mercedes, BUT that are not new. I think the car he drives now he paid about $3000 for. For him it seemed right because it was the right price, plus he knows everything about the car.

Now, the church has fun teasing him about the fact that he drives a "Mercedes" because we serve in a poor community. We don't think that this stops people from coming and if anything, has increased the show of need from people and thus our outreach.

[Jon Twitchell]

I've heard stories about pastor's who drive cars that are "too nice" for the community in which they minister.

Let me ask a different sort of question...

Is it possible for a pastor to drive an inappropriately cheap (or beat up) vehicle? I minister in a community that is well-known for being fairly wealthy. I just got rid of a 15 year old Ford Ranger, for a new Dodge Dakota. My Dak is still much cheaper than the average car in my community.

Does it reflect poorly on a church in a wealthy community for their pastor to drive a beat up old truck?

[Gina Stevenson]

... something like: "What!? Are those rich folks in that there church too tight to pay their pastor a decent wage!?" So, guess it could look bad for the church if he did drive a junker, eh? ;)

BTW, is it really bad to envy your Dodge Dakota [well, I'd really like a Dodge Durango, but I'd settle for a Dakota, considering I've a 21-yr-old Bronco II!] ... ??? Wanna trade??? Then maybe your church will give you a raise, thinking that if you can't afford better than a 21-yr-old vehicle, well ........... ha! :basic05

More seriously, surely do wish someone would trade! My Bronco has been sitting here for awhile now; needs some help to get back on the road; there was a time I tho't I could sell it awhile back, but now ... have to get it on the road first! :(

I've heard stories about pastor's who drive cars that are "too nice" for the community in which they minister.

Let me ask a different sort of question...

Is it possible for a pastor to drive an inappropriately cheap (or beat up) vehicle? I minister in a community that is well-known for being fairly wealthy. I just got rid of a 15 year old Ford Ranger, for a new Dodge Dakota. My Dak is still much cheaper than the average car in my community.

Does it reflect poorly on a church in a wealthy community for their pastor to drive a beat up old truck?

[Jim Franklin]

Pastor Sharon, I would be careful with that great deal on the car. Did you check the online site where you can check into a car's past by using the Vehical Identification Number for there are unscrupulous dealers who will sell what look like reconditioned cars that were in floods such as Katrina. I hope I did not rain on your parade.

[Jon Twitchell]

Gina,

You can envy my Dak...

But know that it's not quite 3 months old, and I've replaced the windshield, a tire, and had it towed twice to two different dealers for electrical problems. The horn turned on, the wipers and washers turned on, the lights came on, and the dashboard went haywire.

Turns out that Dodge has recalled 68,000 Dakotas and Durangos because a static electric spark between the key and ignition caused the computer to go haywire. They've fixed it...but it was a long journey!

[Gina Stevenson]

Thanks for the warning ... if I should happen upon a Durango someday [aren't they getting old enough that I could maybe find one one of these days that's a decent price???], I should remember to ask for some verification of this electrical recall having already been fixed, or find out how it can be before going very far.

Years ago I had a Fiat station wagon that was one electrical nightmare! It would even -- of all things, while I was living in a countrified area -- have the headlights fade out until they were totally dark. Other things happened, too, but I've conveniently forgotten. First & last Fiat .......

It was then that I had a couple Chrysler products that weren't too bad ... Volare' and then a Laser.

Gina,

You can envy my Dak...

But know that it's not quite 3 months old, and I've replaced the windshield, a tire, and had it towed twice to two different dealers for electrical problems. The horn turned on, the wipers and washers turned on, the lights came on, and the dashboard went haywire.

Turns out that Dodge has recalled 68,000 Dakotas and Durangos because a static electric spark between the key and ignition caused the computer to go haywire. They've fixed it...but it was a long journey!

[Sharon Isley]

It was a new car, with only 8 miles when we drove it off the lot. So we are safe! :) We were still paying on the car we bought new 5 years ago. We never dreamed we could find a new car for less money, now. Amazing!

Pastor Sharon, I would be careful with that great deal on the car. Did you check the online site where you can check into a car's past by using the Vehical Identification Number for there are unscrupulous dealers who will sell what look like reconditioned cars that were in floods such as Katrina. I hope I did not rain on your parade.

[Houston Thomas]

Jon, absolutely not. Think of it this way. One of the responsibilities of a pastor is to call the congregation into right relationship with God. And, in America, that certainly includes where we put our money. By you driving a beat up pickup you could be prophetically critiquing the love of stuff. And, once a Christian deals with the love of stuff they realize they have newfound resources to offer for the Lord's service.

[Dennis M. Scott]

He knew when he was leaving Texas to go to Upstate New York he would have to get rid of his Cadillac.

Then he said he first knew he had been in Texas too long when he caught himself seriously considering putting longhorns on the hood!

[Dave McClung]

Does it reflect poorly on a church in a wealthy community for their pastor to drive a beat up old truck?

Jon

I drive a 10 year old pickup truck. I have taken pretty good care of it, but it is still and "old truck." I don't think my old truck has reflected negatively on anyone.

Dave

[Marg Webb]

Now Dave, do you recall Hattie Green? :):)
Marg.

[Mark Metcalfe]

You should buy what your budget affords, no matter what your occupation.

Best answer, in my opinion. Thanks Barb.

My addenda comments:

If you can't afford it, don't buy it.

If you can afford it, buy what you want. It is perfectly fine to say that
buying a luxury car would not be good stewardship for one's self; it is
not fine to say it wouldn't be good stewardship for another person for a
number of reasons.

1. The logic could be applied to any car except the worst of the beaters,
or very cheapest new car.

2. Quality is value. As someone said, some cars are actually cheaper to
operate (and maintain; and resell; retain their value better) than some
others. These are all factors of "good stewardship."

Don't judge the people who can afford it, whether they are pastors
or laymen. Guide others into better understanding.

Live within your means.

Mark

[Jeff Howe]

This is a good question. First, let me say that I've been working in auto advertising since 2001. Second, automobiles do project image, whether new, old, luxury, economy, and people will form mental opinions by what others drive. Is this right? No, but it's reality.

I think what is uppermost for a pastor or anyone buying a car is that they look for dependability, safety, reasonable fuel economy (contractors will own trucks out of necessity, and trucks don't get good gas mileage, but does someone who doesn't plow, doesn't haul a trailer or require the utilitarian aspects of a truck, really need to buy the biggest, baddest 3/4 ton pickup? Of course, not, but it's a free country) and most of all - the vehicle should not incur unwieldy debt loads on the buyer. Most do not pay cash for their vehicles these days but finance.

I think that if the pastor uses these criteria for his/her purchase, then there's really nothing that anyone can say about it.

But someone will always find something - won't they?

[Mark Metcalfe]

Hey, Jeff, good to see you. I think it has been 25 years (since ENC days).
Ragnor-bane. :-)

[Jeff Howe]

Hey, Jeff, good to see you. I think it has been 25 years (since ENC days).
Ragnor-bane. :-)

Hey Mark... yep. 25 years would be about right. Was seeing Sherrie in 1981. I looked at your aerial photos on the other thread. Interesting pictures they are.

[Jon Twitchell]

Jon

I drive a 10 year old pickup truck. I have taken pretty good care of it, but it is still and "old truck." I don't think my old truck has reflected negatively on anyone.

Dave
Previously, I would have entirely agreed with you.

But you should have heard the "amen" sounds that went up in my congregation when I told them that I'd retired "Old Red."

:)

[Gina Stevenson]

Previously, I would have entirely agreed with you.

But you should have heard the "amen" sounds that went up in my congregation when I told them that I'd retired "Old Red."

:)

BUT JON ... was "old red" ten years old [as is Dave's] or was "old red" 20-plus, like my little Bronco II!? A good bit of difference there in 10 and 21!! :p

[Jon Twitchell]

BUT JON ... was "old red" ten years old [as is Dave's] or was "old red" 20-plus, like my little Bronco II!? A good bit of difference there in 10 and 21!! :p

"Old Red" was 15+ and getting pretty rusty...

:)

[Bob Evans]

I would like to invite you all to Grand Rapids Michigan. My mission takes used cars in donation, refurbishes them, and then sells them to the community. Our prices are crazy. Have we got a good deal for you.

[Kim Hersey]

I bought a "new to me" car about a year ago... a 2003 chev. trailblazer extended (seats 7, midsize SUV). I traded in a '98 chevy cavalier w/ 130,000 + miles (my car of choice for three cars in a row...)

I lost gas mileage, I lost convenience in traffic/parking... it looks "more expensive" in a community where more than a few families don't have a single vehicle...

I have to admit, I never considered the "image"... The main reason for the "upgrade" is that it doubles as the "church van" and 7 seatbelts is better than 5! I also considered "low miles" because when I'm traveling alone, I don't want a breakdown. :D

kim :)

[Gina Stevenson]

I bought a "new to me" car about a year ago.............
I also considered "low miles" because when I'm traveling alone, I don't want a breakdown. :D

kim :)

No kidding! I came from AZ to MI in a vehicle with about 175,000 on it ... that was 17 [2002] years old at the time ... put a lot into it, to try to make sure it was roadworthy, but think I "sweated it" some, too ... didn't have enough to replace it ... what I put into it to try to make sure it got here [ab2000mi] would've only gotten me someone else's "unknown junk" that would then still probably need help to get here, so .......... anyway, it's now 21 years old ... wouldn't dare try X-country, or very far ... when it gets back on the road again. oh, well ...............

The reason, BTW, I got a station wagon years ago was b/c I seemed to haul kids a lot from church ... that was the electrical-fiasco Fiat ... that got replaced by a Volare'. So, 'understand your buying a several-seater, Kim. ;)

[Jon Twitchell]

Another interesting question would be about the appropriateness of the pastor considering the church's needs in his vehicle purchase. At what point should the pastor's vehicle be considered a business vehicle in the true sense of the word? If there are pastor's families who buy larger vehicles so they can transport people, that ought to go beyond a simple mileage reimbursement for business use of a personal vehicle. At what point should the church purchase the vehicle and have the pastor reimburse the church for personal use instead of the other way around?

(Not even sure the legalities of what I just suggested, although I do know some churches have figured out a way to buy a business vehicle for the pastor to use.)

But that's probably a different topic altogether!

:)

[Dennis M. Scott]

"Old Red" was 15+ and getting pretty rusty...

:)

When I pastored Malden, MA, 1st COTN, I had a rusty beat up Datsun, with an engine that wouldn't quit. When it got so bad you literally could see from once side through to the other, I sold it through the want ads. I was embarrassed for it to be seen in the church parking lot. To my knowledge I had never met the man I sold it to, but as a result of our conversation, he started coming to church, got saved, and became a member.

He quite proudly drove that rust bucket to church for another three years, always kidding me about how I sold a perfectly good vehicle. Last I knew he had moved to Maine, somewhere. Who'd you sell your truck to?

[BobHunt]

work at a dealership, and I am amazed at how many people will bring their cars in, having no brakes hardly at all, but they dont want them fixed, they are concerned about a window switch or some other cosmetic item. So we all laugh and say.....well, their switch will be working when their brakes fail etc

[Gina Stevenson]

if the brakes are really that bad, it should be against the law, it would seem, re not fixing them ... they're putting others in danger, not just themselves, letting brakes go. Now, months ago when driving ma's old car, the brakes suddenly went ... I didn't have a warning. Thank goodness it was me driving it, because I didn't panic ... knew to downshift, etc, etc ... so could nurse it home and then have it hauled. She'd have panicked, I believe, had she been driving it ... she's like that.

work at a dealership, and I am amazed at how many people will bring their cars in, having no brakes hardly at all, but they dont want them fixed, they are concerned about a window switch or some other cosmetic item. So we all laugh and say.....well, their switch will be working when their brakes fail etc

[Jon Twitchell]

Who'd you sell your truck to?


Some guy who had just gotten rid of a 30 year old Datsun...


:)


Seriously, I sold it to a used car dealer through the want ads. While I probably didn't make as much money as if I'd sold to an individual, I felt better about the sale. I struggled with setting the price on a vehicle that I didn't know how long it would last. Somehow selling it to a used car dealer was easier on my conscious than selling it to some high school kid.

I actually saw him driving it a couple of weeks later with the used car dealer plates on it. I don't know if he was delivering it to a buyer, or just decided that he liked it for himself. :)

[Doug Kitchen]

When I pastored Malden, MA, 1st COTN, I had a rusty beat up Datsun, with an engine that wouldn't quit. When it got so bad you literally could see from once side through to the other, I sold it through the want ads. I was embarrassed for it to be seen in the church parking lot. To my knowledge I had never met the man I sold it to, but as a result of our conversation, he started coming to church, got saved, and became a member.

He quite proudly drove that rust bucket to church for another three years, always kidding me about how I sold a perfectly good vehicle. Last I knew he had moved to Maine, somewhere. Who'd you sell your truck to?

Dennis,
Lori and I are trying to think of who that might have been.

Most of that congregation drove cars just like your Datsun - in fact, I'm related to one of them - in fact, I'm one of them. It takes all the fun out of attending church if you know your car will start after the service. We had a 66 impala that we had to hotwire every few starts. Carried a long craftsman screwdriver that let you jump the two screws on the starter.

Doug

[Dennis M. Scott]

It takes all the fun out of attending church if you know your car will start after the service.
Doug

His first name was Verne, and his last was like the senator. You may not have known him, for he was after you left. I think your parents would remember him, though.

Also, as I recall, Cedric Kitchen was pretty good at keeping all our vehicles running well beyond their intended lifespan.

I think that since we last spoke Evelyn Yetman died. Another of my heroes has gone ahead to join the welcoming committee.

[Doug Kitchen]

His first name was Verne, and his last was like the senator. You may not have known him, for he was after you left. I think your parents would remember him, though.

Also, as I recall, Cedric Kitchen was pretty good at keeping all our vehicles running well beyond their intended lifespan.

I think that since we last spoke Evelyn Yetman died. Another of my heroes has gone ahead to join the welcoming committee.

Lori and I had Evelyn as our Kindergarten SS teacher. Lori and her son exchanged emails recently and he related about his memories of "fish and brew" among a few of the members of the church. It isn't quite what it sounds like -

We both have fond memories of the Yetmans (and many others). To bring this little digression back on track - the memories are not of their cars but of their lives.

Doug