When it comes to hitting people with a bat, isn't once enough?

[Dave McClung]

I couldn't help chuckling a bit when I read this story:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-cpchurch25mar25,0,807502.story?coll=sfla-news-palm

Next week, we will be reading that the church has been sued because the men used excessive force (I am only half joking). The law is that once you have the burgler subdued, so that your property is no longer in danger, the one protecting the property is supposed to stop hitting the burgler. Either these guys were not swinging the bat very hard or that burgler was pretty tough. I really think if I hit a burgler once with a baseball bat, once would be enough.

[Thomas Cook]

My compliments to the Parishioners for protecting their Church.Thanks for finding that DAve!

[Kevin Bowser]

Maybe the first time they hit him it was just a foul tip! :basic05

[Gina Stevenson]

Not the first time I've heard of folks sleeping in a church to watch it; recall that when I was in Plymouth [early 80s] this was being done for awhile.

I couldn't help chuckling a bit when I read this story:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-cpchurch25mar25,0,807502.story?coll=sfla-news-palm

[Beth Larpenter-Shurbutt]

In Alabama, you wouldn't go to sleep lest you get burned up!!

Beth

[Barbara Moulton]

Beating an unarmed man with a bat because he is breaking into a church? Have they never thought of simply buying a security system?

Some of the men hit Thomas with a bat until Mendoza and another man tied his hands with some white rope and waited for police.

In my opinion, they did use excessive force. And even if it isn't excessive force under the law, continuing to hit him with the bat while he was outnumbered, subdued and surrounded ...doesn't seem like something Jesus would do. I guess they never read Les Miserables.

[Ian Gentles]

ROFLOL that guy took on much more that he expected LOL.

[Jim Franklin]

Beside thw tory of the burglar and his sbduction is it not interesting that the website then places ads for where to buy baseball bats below the article?

[Richard McElroy]

What was it that Jesus said about situations like this? "If someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to him the other". Maybe since the burglar was going to take their stuff, and not physically attacking them that's probably why it was okay to beat the hell out of him.

[Barbara Moulton]

What was it that Jesus said about situations like this? "If someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to him the other". Maybe since the burglar was going to take their stuff, and not physically attacking them that's probably why it was okay to beat the hell out of him.

I was talking about this case to my husband. I wasn't sure what bothered me more, the fact that they beat a man with baseball bats or that nobody here seemed to have much a problem with it.

Thanks for your comments Richard.

[LoraineStanton]

Excessive force? The way the story is written, it's hard to tell.

[Barbara Moulton]

Excessive force? The way the story is written, it's hard to tell.

My understanding is that force is considered "excessive" if it does not correspond to the threat.

Someone breaking into a church at night, with only burglary tools in his possession, is not looking for a violent encounter. (He was not charged with the possession of a weapon.) It was five "against" one. He tried to escape. They pulled him back in and hit him with a bat until they got him tied up.

Those actions do not seem to correspond to the threat posed by the burglar.

[Andrea Larabee]

The Nazarene church I formerly attended got broken into. When the police revealed to the pastor who the two young men were that comitted the crime, our pastor went to visit them. He witnessed to them and even invited them and their family to church. I don't think we ever saw them in church, but it was a great way to "love your enemies."

[Barbara Moulton]

The Nazarene church I formerly attended got broken into. When the police revealed to the pastor who the two young men were that comitted the crime, our pastor went to visit them. He witnessed to them and even invited them and their family to church. I don't think we ever saw them in church, but it was a great way to "love your enemies."


Lovely. Thanks for sharing.

[Kevin Rector]

I wasn't sure what bothered me more, the fact that they beat a man with baseball bats or that nobody here seemed to have much a problem with it.

My sentiments exactly Barbara. This makes Nazarenes everywhere look bad.

[Peter Teolis]

I am wondering wether or not the whole story is being told here. The church must be large for 5 men to be protecting it. Yes, they are portrayed as beating the"poor burgler" with a bat, but is there more to the story?

We are judging these protectors of the church. Maybe their force was excessive, maybe not. Did the guy fight back at all? Remember, it is the media writing a story. Most stories are one sided. I applaud the guys for protecting the church. If they used excessive force, forgive them. We are not here to judge, but to forgive and move on...What would I do? I hope I never have to find out.

My 2 cents Canadian...

[Cindi Hammons]

Thank you Pete for looking at another side to the story. It's not that I think the men should have hit the burgler with a bat, it's just that I have no doubt that there is much more to the story.

Was this the first break-in? (With 5 guys spending the night in the church?)
Was this the guy a first-time burgler at the church?
Even if he was unarmed, how violently did he fight back?
Did the men feel physically threatened?
Did the men know in the dark that the burgler was the only one there?
Is this church in a bad neighborhood with gang activity?
Have they had gang problems before?
What kind of police protection does this neighborhood have?

I'm not saying any of these questions gives the church the "right" to fight back, and in a perfect world they would have calmly "turned the other cheek." How many times previously have they turned their cheeks?

I just feel it is unfair to make judgment on these Nazarenes without knowing the full story. Maybe they were out of line, but maybe they were not. We don't know. In the Bible, the Pharisees were constantly being criticized for making judgments without all the facts. To make judgments on the motives of these men without all the facts is irresponsible and pretty close (in my book) to gossip. How would we feel if the Nazarene's actions were justified (for whatever reason) and they came on the NazNet reading the comments all of us good Christians have written. I think it would be pretty embarrassing. We may find out that the men did use too much force...let's talk about it later, when we have all the facts instead of a quick newspaper article and rumor.

Cindi H.

[Barbara Moulton]

So now I am being judged for judging?

My responses were not judgemental. I simply questioned the actions that others in this thread seemed to be applauding and/or making light of. I expressed my opinion that excessive force seemed to be used and wondered why they just didn't install a good security system and if this was something that Jesus would do. I also commended the actions of a pastor who took a more gracious approach.

If questioning, challenging and wondering have now become grounds for being called judgemental, then I might as well stop discussing any issue here at NazNet. I don't want to be second guessing every post I make.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Cindi Hammons]

Just once...once, could you say, "Cindi, you may have a point." I'm not asking that you say I'm right...my self-esteem does not require that. Just give me some credit for bringing up another point of view. I was only trying to bring in another possible angle on the story.

It's unfortunate that you think I'm picking on you, because if you'll read my post, your name was never mentioned...you were not the only person who spoke negatively against the men in Florida, there were several who spoke up against their actions. In fact, the only thing that I quoted was from another poster...not even you. Neither did I say those conclussions were wrong...I just said we don't have enough information to be critical of their actions.

As we all saw with the Olathe church issue, I was only saying that we should be careful about the judgments we make without having complete information. If you disagree with me...whatever. Talk all you want about the issue, just keep in mind that you might be maligning people who don't deserve the honor you are giving them.

Cindi H.

[Peter Teolis]

:fav18 Any views on this. I would like your input...

[Mark Doble]

No. 1) They laid in wait. Conspiring what to do if it happened again. In Canada that is a no-no.

No. 2) They choose ahead of time the weapons of choice. In Canada that is a premeditated act. If you just grab whatever is within your reach is ok.

No. 3) Once the guys ran they gave chase. Now in Canada that is a no-no as well. If you give chace back you are now charged.

Sooooo, I think all will be charged with some form of criminal act against the burgler. But that depends on floridian law.

Now, ifin I was in that situation, and kept getting burglurized, the first thing I would grab is my barbarian sword in the corner next to the wine rack. If the guy was bigger than I and had a knife I would be legally able to use a sword.

And I do practice in the summer months with my barbarian sword out in the backyard... I think it is pretty cool anyway. Some of the neighbour kids like to watch.

Well, someone asked for my opinion:basic05

[Barbara Moulton]

Just once...once, could you say, "Cindi, you may have a point." I'm not asking that you say I'm right...my self-esteem does not require that. Just give me some credit for bringing up another point of view. I was only trying to bring in another possible angle on the story. .

This gives the impression that everytime you post I disagree with you. I don't.

It's unfortunate that you think I'm picking on you, .

Where did I say that Cindi Hammons was picking on me? I responded to two posts that said that those of us who had problems with what happened in that church were judgemental.

I was only saying that we should be careful about the judgments we make without having complete information. If you disagree with me...whatever. Talk all you want about the issue, just keep in mind that you might be maligning people who don't deserve the honor you are giving them.

Cindi H.

I agree. That's why I was very careful not to judge the parishoners. Read my posts again. They were full of "in my opinion" and it "seems that". When I made my first post others who had responded were indicating that they thought it was a "good" thing. So my point was to suggest another viewpoint.

I don't think that laying in wait with baseball bats is an appropriate way to handle an ongoing burglary problem. If nothing else, it puts men who are probably husbands and fathers at risk of harm, for the sake of property. Property can be replaced. Husbands and fathers can't.

'Nuff said.

[Mark Doble]

Take a breath...

Breath in, now out, in, now out...

There, all better.:fav18

The rest of you leave Barbara alone!...:cool:

[Peter Teolis]

:gen07I'm cool here! :cool:

[Barbara Moulton]

Take a breath...

Breath in, now out, in, now out...

There, all better.:fav18

The rest of you leave Barbara alone!...:cool:

I am not breathing heavily and not stressed Mark :)

Blessings,
Barbara

[Dennis M. Scott]

Our urban church meets in a renovated mill building on the banks of the river going through our town. There are a couple dozen other businesses in the same building. After repeated burglaries, the management company put in cameras. Our church has been robbed several times. We now buy speakers too big for them to carry out, and the keyboard is built in to a large console. Things like projectors and smaller items we just concede.
The last time, the burglar hit multiple businesses the same night, including the church. The cameras revealed who it was, and the police picked him up. Those cameras have recorded the same individual stealing on more than one occasion. When the police picked him up, they had several other burglaries in the city they'd not been able to solve which they suspected the same person had performed. In questioning him, they told him that if he would come clean, they would not prosecute, but he had to take them to every place he had robbed for several years. He cooperated, and confessed to dozens of robberies, hitting the same establishments often repeatedly. He showed them where he had hit, and how he had done it. When he had confessed of all those crimes, true to their promise, they let him go.

Two nights later, they nabbed him as he was taking things out of one of the same places he had showed them. They were sure he wouldn't break his own pattern, and they waited for him to show up. The judge was not very kind to him, and he's now serving time in the state pen.

We were able to recover some items he had taken three robberies earlier.