sunday evening services?

[Richard Stevens]

i have been away from the CON for many years. recently, i found out that many churches do not have sunday evening services anymore. any ideas about what started that change?

[Kevin Rector]

Our's does, but it's more a bible study and we do it in the fellowship hall with lots of snacks.

[Susan Unger]

i have been away from the CON for many years. recently, i found out that many churches do not have sunday evening services anymore. any ideas about what started that change?

People have moved to 'small groups' held at different times based on peoples' schedules. Declining numbers on Sunday night. This is probably due to people being busy and tired and wanting to either stay home and relax or do family stuff.

[Shea Zellweger]

I think Susan's answer is the most likely one. When most people worked 9-5, Monday-Friday, Sunday evening services made sense. Now, with many businesses being open 24/7, there is a large portion of the population that does not have a traditional "weekend," so churches have found that by offering small groups that meet throughout the week, it is more likely that individuals will be able to find a group that meets at a time that works for them.

[Hans Deventer]

We started out in 1984 with only Sunday evening services because we couldn't find a place where we could hold a morning service. We then moved to the afternoon because of the children. Finally we could buy a church and went to regular morning services in 1990. 10 years later they got too crowded so we chose to have 2 morning services. Since we moved to a larger church in 2002, we're back to one morning service.

I really don't see any reason for a evening service, we're already tired after our morning service, even if we only attend. Somehow it seems to be more spiritual if you sing more songs.

[Ryan Plott]

i have been away from the CON for many years. recently, i found out that many churches do not have sunday evening services anymore. any ideas about what started that change?

My answers would be cultural shifts in the way the family operates, work scheduling increasing on weekends, and an increased awareness for the necessity of community building activities such as discipleship in a post-Constantinian era for the church. The church no longer has the "open the doors and they will come" ability that was around when Sunday evening services were so popular.

I actually know of a CotN in Michigan that is booming because they only offer a Sunday evening service. Their whole strategy is to minister and provide a worship setting to people who like to spend their Sunday morning with Pastor Pillow and Deacon Sheets. I'm thinking of changing my membership and moving there. ;-)

[Hans Deventer]

I actually know of a CotN in Michigan that is booming because they only offer a Sunday evening service. Their whole strategy is to minister and provide a worship setting to people who like to spend their Sunday morning with Pastor Pillow and Deacon Sheets. I'm thinking of changing my membership and moving there. ;-)

As a lay preacher, I'd love Saturday services. Like yesterday, I left home at 7:45 and came back at 15:30. Sure would like to have a day off after that.

[John Kennedy]

The reference to 'Pastor Pillow' and 'Deacon Sheets' is one I'd never heard before. At several Naz colleges students are reportedly faithful parishioners at Bedside Baptist.

One of the compensations of living to some sort of ripe, or at least softer, old age is that of being being able to say "Why, I reemember back when we.....".

Back in the late 50'-early60's the Sunday evening service was thought of as one of the prime hallmarks of a spiritually vibrant church. There was even a Christian Service Training Course based on the book titled SHINING LIGHTS ON SUNDAY NIGHTS.

Times change......

[Susan Unger]

I actually know of a CotN in Michigan that is booming because they only offer a Sunday evening service. Their whole strategy is to minister and provide a worship setting to people who like to spend their Sunday morning with Pastor Pillow and Deacon Sheets. I'm thinking of changing my membership and moving there. ;-)Joel Merrill, former naznetter, has a passion for a church that ministers to those who work 2nd and 3rd shifts. He would love such a church. And back when my migraines were at their worst [or even like today when I was too sick this am to go], I was grateful that the church I attended at the time offered a Sunday pm service.


As a lay preacher, I'd love Saturday services. Like yesterday, I left home at 7:45 and came back at 15:30. Sure would like to have a day off after that.I've attended a friend's service that did that. It was nice as I am an evening person not a morning one. But, it did feel kind of weird on Sunday to not go to church...like I was sinning or something ;)


The reference to 'Pastor Pillow' and 'Deacon Sheets' is one I'd never heard before. At several Naz colleges students are reportedly faithful parishioners at Bedside Baptist. By the time I made it to Olivet, the esteemed pastor and deacon had arrived at the church!

[Mike Schutz]

Not an answer, but some observations:

1. The original purpose of Sunday evening services was to mimic the camp meeting-style holiness rally, especially for those who attended "old line" churches on Sunday morning. When such an event would offer one of the most interesting "entertainment" events available in a community, it was a viable evangelistic tool.
2. Sunday evening services were most popular during the days when Nazarenes felt that Sunday school was as important, if not more so, than Sunday morning worship attendance. (Pre 1980, Nazarene churches did not report Sunday AM worship attendance, only Sunday school.) Can anyone imagine these days folks asking the question - during Sunday school - "Are you going to stay for the service?" like was asked in those days?
3. If we accept the truism that "What you win them with is what you win them to," we must admit that many healthy Nazarene churches have attracted a good number of young families through our ability to help them develop a strong family life. It is then difficult to turn around and say that the best use of this family time is not to be with your kids doing family activities, but to go home after AM worship, eat, take a nap, and then come back to church for more of the same. For many churches, other activities are doing great on Sunday night, just not a worship service. (Anyone really feel good using our limited amount of "let's challenge culture" sermons addressing the sins of kids playing sports on Sunday? Not me.)
4. There are folks in our congregation who miss Sunday night services - most of whom are over 70. I have asked if they would come, and they don't drive at night if they can avoid it. One saint, a widow of a Nazarene pastor, has asked me, "How do you expect us to keep the Sabbath if we don't have Sunday evening services?"

[Marsha Lynn]

One factor in not having two services on Sunday is the energy that has to go into them. As we increase the time and preparation put into the Sunday morning service, do we really have enough resources to double the effort in order to have a completely different service in the evening. It's not like the old days when the song leader would take requests and the pianist and organist could play anything in the hymnal or "chorus book."

We still gather on Sunday evenings with the exception of "family holidays" but not for a traditional service. Last night we watched and discussed a video. Next week is one of those family holidays (Mother's Day) so nothing official is scheduled. Which means, those of us who already have plenty of "family time" (or can't manage to travel to family and back on Sunday afternoon) and count the church as our extended family are making plans to spend the evening together -- probably at a state park not too far away.

[Mike Schutz]

The wonderful saint who asked me, "How do you expect us to keep the Sabbath if we don't have Sunday evening services?" encouraged me to read about the life of Bresee in order to see all of the work that the church did on Sunday in order to reach the lost. I did not have the heart to tell her that such things simply would not work these days. For example, I cannot imagine how it would be received if we left the church and went to the homes of all the folks who were not there on Sunday morning, like they did in Bresee's day. I know how it would be received - it wouldn't matter, because they are all at the lake, or the beach, or at little league, or at an Eagles or Phillies game. And that is where our folks who were at church on Sunday morning go, as soon as they leave the service.

[David Pettigrew]

Short answer - people stopped attending.

[John Reilly]

On Sunday Nights, I am using a video bible study series by Peace Maker Ministries. The goal is to create a culture of peace making in the church. "Blessed are the Peace Makers ..." We watch the video, take notes, have a vibrant group interactive directed conversation. Usually no one hits any one. I did have to make one counseling referral to out side agency, the CIA. Anyway this format seems to work. The previous video bible study was the Seven Deadly Sins by Dan Boone. Again we watched the video and then had a vibrant group interactive directed conversation using the discussions questions provided by Dan Boone. The people like Dan's preaching better than my preaching. The people LOVED and still love the Seven Deadly SINS. Awesome time. I think Nazarene churches need to bring back the sunday night service and the 5 PM NYPS service and the 3 PM after lunch Praise service. Small groups and home groups should be offered every night of the week. People should be assigned to a group and required to attend. We should be using John Wesley's accountibility questions. Lets NOT take NO for an answer. No whining, no crying about be tired. JUST do It. Then every Sunday Morning the Pastor reads the names of those people who through the week were seen NOT living a holy life. The whole congregation can vote on those names that will be temporarily removed from membership until they repent of the their backsliding behavior. Bring back John Wesley's Societies and Classes and lets enforce the Code of Holy Living.

[James Diggs]

At the Corridor we meet once on Sunday at 4:30 in the late afternoon for worship and share a meal together at 5:30

[Mike Schutz]

On Sunday Nights, I am using a video bible study series by Peace Maker Ministries. The goal is to create a culture of peace making in the church. "Blessed are the Peace Makers ..." We watch the video, take notes, have a vibrant group interactive directed conversation. Usually no one hits any one. I did have to make one counseling referral to out side agency, the CIA. Anyway this format seems to work. The previous video bible study was the Seven Deadly Sins by Dan Boone. Again we watched the video and then had a vibrant group interactive directed conversation using the discussions questions provided by Dan Boone. The people like Dan's preaching better than my preaching. The people LOVED and still love the Seven Deadly SINS. Awesome time. I think Nazarene churches need to bring back the sunday night service and the 5 PM NYPS service and the 3 PM after lunch Praise service. Small groups and home groups should be offered every night of the week. People should be assigned to a group and required to attend. We should be using John Wesley's accountibility questions. Lets NOT take NO for an answer. No whining, no crying about be tired. JUST do It. Then every Sunday Morning the Pastor reads the names of those people who through the week were seen NOT living a holy life. The whole congregation can vote on those names that will be temporarily removed from membership until they repent of the their backsliding behavior. Bring back John Wesley's Societies and Classes and lets enforce the Code of Holy Living.

Folks, John is not kidding. He really means this. This really works in New Hampshire - especially in the part of New Hampshire where John lives, that part that is still in 1947.

[Ryan Scott]

I grew up going to service twice on Sunday and once more in Wednesday. They were all worship services of similar style (with the dress becoming increasingly casual as the week went along). For the most part it was habit, but as I've grown older (and perhaps as a result of watching my father prepare three distinct sermons every week) I've realized that it's probably too much.

I have no problems with the Church meeting multiple times on Sunday and coming back throughout the week, I just think its needs to be a bit more intentional. We have a hard enough time focusing on responding to one message a week, let along three. If we really worked to reinforce, discuss and explore the one sermon we here in a number of different venues, I think it has more potential to actually make a difference in our lives and communities.

I agree with Dave that the real reason we stopped these services is because people stopped coming and I tend to think people stopped coming when they felt overwhelmed by what "God" was asking them to do each week. There's just better ways to be the Church and it seems like some people are figuring them out.

[Susan Unger]

It's not like we've stopped having official "Sunday Evening Services" or "Wednesday Evening Services", we've just stopped having a service with a sermon and in which all of us are together in one room. We have small groups [bible studies], share groups [fellowship time for the teens doing a specific activity], prayer group, "hope" group, coffee house and fellowship activities for the adults [bb, dinners, mops]. Many of these activties occur on Sunday and Wednesdays. So we're still doing church, just not traditionally.

[John Reilly]

Folks, John is not kidding. He really means this. This really works in New Hampshire - especially in the part of New Hampshire where John lives, that part that is still in 1947.

Keene, NH and Windsor Hills Camp, NH (site of the Global NAZNET HOLINESS Conference Fall 2010) is the epicenter of the new World Wide Wesleyan Holiness Revival. Shock waves are reverberating around the world. Holiness People are preparing for their pilgrimage to Windsor Hills Camp for the next Great Holiness Pentecost. The INN at Windsor will be shaken, filled with smoke and incense, tongues of fire will fall, and tons of tongues will be spoken and the all time great holiness quartet, The Prophet Elijah, John and Charles Wesley as themselves, and Dennis Scott, will lead everyone in singing their favorite Great Hymn, "Let Thy Mantle Fall on Me!"

[Billy Cox]

i have been away from the CON for many years. recently, i found out that many churches do not have sunday evening services anymore. any ideas about what started that change?

What started the change? People and society changed and the church's program did not.

The church growth movement also provided fuel by pointing out that Sunday morning is the church's main event and that non-believers are most likely to 'visit' on a Sunday morning, so a church's energy and emphasis should be on Sunday morning. Many or even most churches did just this, but were unable to jettison a program rendered irrelevant but still cherished by some of the key giving units in the congregation.

Though I haven't attended a church with a 'traditional' Sunday evening service in at least 15 years, I realize that some NazNetters attend or even pastor churches that still gather for a worship service on Sunday nights.

[Richard Stevens]

growing up, i knew sunday am, sunday pm, and wednesday pm were sacred. we used to criicize methodists for 'dropping' their sunday pm services. i wonder who had the guts to start the change? as a pk and former CON member, i am fascinated with the change in 20 years. any guesses when being gay wlll be accepted by CON? too late for me.... but for others.

[Marsha Lynn]

Short answer - people stopped attending.

Which came first: people quit attending or the Sunday evening event lost its appeal?

Our default, nothing else going on, Sunday evening activity is videos such as John R. described. When we were doing Nooma videos the teens and young adults were coming consistently. When a "That the World May Know" video was slipped in one week, there was unrest in the camp. When we did Dan Boone's "Seven Deadly Sins" attendance was back up but not at the level of the Nooma videos. For the past couple of months we have been doing a video series on finances from Crown Financial Ministries. It seemed like a good idea to those who chose it. After all, everyone can use advice on managing their money, regardless of age, right? In reality, we lost all the teens and several others during that series. It just didn't quite connect. One week I talked a couple of people into coming to the "Sunday supper" hour with the suggestion that we would be "fashionably late" for the video session because of making plans for a future activity. (Oops, we didn't actually make it into the session at all.) They were available for the right activity but not for the financial discussion. (For the final sessions, some of us ended up forming a "heckler row" in the back where we could question the oh-so-conventional wisdom together without disturbing the rest of the group.)

Last evening, a video night was announced with no hint as to what would be shown. Several of the younger members of the faithful few chose not to take the gamble. It turned out to be an excellent video about amazing discoveries concerning the universe. But we didn't know. If showing up on Sunday evening is a gamble because you don't know what you're getting into or if you know that what is happening doesn't interest you, there are definitely other places to be.

Marsha

[Todd Erickson]

Keene, NH and Windsor Hills Camp, NH (site of the Global NAZNET HOLINESS Conference Fall 2010) is the epicenter of the new World Wide Wesleyan Holiness Revival. Shock waves are reverberating around the world. Holiness People are preparing for their pilgrimage to Windsor Hills Camp for the next Great Holiness Pentecost. The INN at Windsor will be shaken, filled with smoke and incense, tongues of fire will fall, and tons of tongues will be spoken and the all time great holiness quartet, The Prophet Elijah, John and Charles Wesley as themselves, and Dennis Scott, will lead everyone in singing their favorite Great Hymn, "Let Thy Mantle Fall on Me!"

Hrm. It's going to be a shame to miss out on that.

The local church I'm at decided that it would be more appropriate for people to have family time on sunday evenings, and moved sunday school back to sunday mornings. Promptly lost some hard core people, but I don't think the church has suffererd for it.

The time isn't holy...how we love people within it is.

[Shea Zellweger]

growing up, i knew sunday am, sunday pm, and wednesday pm were sacred. we used to criicize methodists for 'dropping' their sunday pm services. i wonder who had the guts to start the change? as a pk and former CON member, i am fascinated with the change in 20 years. any guesses when being gay wlll be accepted by CON? too late for me.... but for others.

Hmmm... I don't see how we can make any day "sacred," when Paul says quite plainly not to let anyone judge you based on a Sabbath day, but what do I know? As for being gay... well, currently we accept gay people in our churches, and we even accept their homosexuality... we just don't accept homosexual activity. Who knows, maybe that will indeed change.

[Marsha Lynn]

At the Corridor we meet once on Sunday at 4:30 in the late afternoon for worship and share a meal together at 5:30

You know, this discussion has prompted me to think outside the 10:30 am box for Sunday worship. This weekend I spent 12 hours on the road in order to join my mother for her church's Mother/Daughter "brunch" on Saturday morning. I left Friday afternoon at 3 pm and was back Saturday at 8 pm so I could be at church on Sunday morning to teach SS and play the piano. Wouldn't it have been nice to have no obligation to be back until Sunday afternoon or evening?

As I mentioned already, next Sunday our Sunday evening activities are cancelled so we can have "family time" on Mother's Day. That's real nice for those whose mothers are within a more reasonable distance but it doesn't do me any good at all. Sunday morning is right in the middle of the weekend making it crazy to try to visit my mother on a weekend without missing the Sunday morning service (which crazy thing I did this past weekend) and impossible to do on Sunday afternoon. I'm already not spending that day with my mother. Nor are my out-of-town children coming to see me. They, too, have Sunday morning obligations. I might as well hang out with other church people in the same boat on Sunday evening.

We have one family who often misses Sunday morning because they are visiting out-of-town relatives. They generally make it back to town in time for our Sunday evening event. After all they have work and school on Monday morning so they don't want to come in late. Wouldn't it be nice if the "worship" event were the last thing on the weekend schedule and all it took to be there was cutting Sunday's activities a little short?

MY SS group enjoys tent camping together. Those who contribute the most effort to setting up camp insist that we stay at least two nights. The only way to do that without everyone taking off work is to miss the Sunday morning service. We can certainly worship God together in a campground but it makes it tough on those left behind since we take the entire music team with us. I've finally had to tell the group that we will miss only one Sunday morning a year for an official group outing. Last summer there were two unofficial camping trips that left me (and others) behind. Wouldn't it be nice if we could spend Friday and Saturday evening camping and just be back for Sunday evening church?

It's not going to happen but I'm sort of wishing Christian "evolution" were taking a different route such that the Sunday PM service were surviving in these times rather than the Sunday AM service. Is God more pleased that we go to church BEFORE our other Sunday activities rather than after them? Are those activities any different because we start the day with church rather than ending with worship?

Marsha

[Shea Zellweger]

It's not going to happen but I'm sort of wishing Christian "evolution" were taking a different route such that the Sunday PM service were surviving in these times rather than the Sunday AM service. Is God more pleased that we go to church BEFORE our other Sunday activities rather than after them? Are those activities any different because we start the day with church rather than ending with worship?

Marsha

I agree that I'd like to see the evolution of church services heading in a different direction. When I spent a few weeks worshiping with a Messianic community, one thing I loved was that service was at 7 PM on Friday. For one thing, it was really nice to be finishing up work on Friday, and going straight into celebrating Sabbath, which was done very much in the sense of worship and rest. The traditional Sunday Morning-Sunday Evening system makes Sunday anything but a day of rest. Were the Messianic folk a bit less legalistic, I may have stayed long term.
Another benefit of Friday or Saturday evening services is the conflict it creates and the conflict it resolves. I have friends on the West Coast who hate that their parishioners will skip church on a Sunday morning to watch a particularly important football game. They also don't like when some of their newer members come in still feeling the effects of a night of partying. I've suggested to them that a Saturday or Friday Evening service would take away the football conflict, and it would require people to consciously choose church over the bars... or at least postpone their clubbing until after service.

[Glenda Harvey]

Most Calvary Chapels have Sunday evening services bu people seem to attend the evening service in place of not in addition to the Sunday morning service.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Keene, NH and Windsor Hills Camp, NH (site of the Global NAZNET HOLINESS Conference Fall 2010) is the epicenter of the new World Wide Wesleyan Holiness Revival. Shock waves are reverberating around the world. Holiness People are preparing for their pilgrimage to Windsor Hills Camp for the next Great Holiness Pentecost. The INN at Windsor will be shaken, filled with smoke and incense, tongues of fire will fall, and tons of tongues will be spoken and the all time great holiness quartet, The Prophet Elijah, John and Charles Wesley as themselves, and Dennis Scott, will lead everyone in singing their favorite Great Hymn, "Let Thy Mantle Fall on Me!"

John, please be calm. Spring will soon come to Keene. Once most of the snow melts, the officials will be there to help you. Please don't fight them this year, as they are only there to help you get better. If you really want, I can come to sing to you, even though that's not a request I have had in years. You can be ok again some time. Please tell Debbie to be patient a little longer. Help is on the way.

[John Kennedy]

Keene, NH and Windsor Hills Camp, NH (site of the Global NAZNET HOLINESS Conference "Let Thy Mantle Fall on Me!"

Started to ask about the insurance coverage if the mantle fell on someone but realized the spelling was different. There went another golden opportunity.

Just out of curiosity, what is the insurance coverage if Dennis sings?

[Bob Evans]

When I pastored I despised them because I had nothing left in the tank for a night sermon. When I stoped pastoring I grew to like them . However, our church went to small group so they don't happen any more. The problem I see is that on a given week a church really needs to teach, admonish, and encourage. And thats hard to do in one service. I guess small groups is suppose to do some of that but 9 years in it has not been my experience.

[Scott Sherwood]

We stopped having Sunday evening preaching services because we realized the words "come and sit" were not found in the great commission. NOw the building is used on Sunday nights the same way it is the rest of the week: for ministry teams and small groups and age group ministries. I am pretty sure we have more in the building on sunday nights now than we did when we were having Sunday night services, although that was not the goal.

I do think we miss something now that we don't have a secondary gathering time. I used to be able to speak to the "core" about "core" issues every week (not having that has forced us to use other criteria to identify our core and other means to communicate with them, which has been extremely healthy for us). It used to be on Sunday nights, all ages were together in one service (which is to say, families with small children stayed home). Still I miss it. It was less work than all we do now. But we're more effective now.

[Alisa Stoll]

When we last had Sunday evening "standard" services - it was an opportunity for our local/district licensed pastors to preach. The pastor who preached on Sunday mornings did not preach Sunday evenings. Once a month we did a Bible study and pizza. We stopped doing this because the senior pastor felt that those who attended Sunday evening were mainly those who were there when the doors were open ie those who were leaders in the church. He felt they would benefit from more family time. Twice a month we do have evening activity - one is a prayer service (poorly attended) and the other is an outreach activity.

As a denomination, pastor reports now count the number of people who attended a worship service regardless of when it is held and if you have more than one and a person attends more than one - they only count once. So the denomination officially doesn't care when you hold your service(s).

Alisa

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

On this day there happens to be a backlog at the Pearly Gates. Nothing major, but there's a line of several hundred people waiting to be processed in.

Once in awhile, there's a great cheer from those who are close to the front of the line. The folks in the back are not only anxious for their turn to be admitted into heaven, but they are also curious as to what the cheering is about.

The line moves forward and there's more cheering. "What are they cheering about?" those farther back ask.

Now, they've moved forward and there's a great cheer by those just in front of them. Someone asks the one in front of them, "Did you hear why they're cheering?"

"Yes," she says, "Saint Peter says that Sunday nights don't count."

"Yeaaaaaa!" the group cheers.

[Billy Cox]

"Yes," she says, "Saint Peter says that Sunday nights don't count."

"Yeaaaaaa!" the group cheers.

And there is another smaller, but quietly despondent group who missed out on all the cool things that happen on Sunday night to attend Sunday PM worship services. :smilies0121:

[Mike Schutz]

And there is another smaller, but quietly despondent group who missed out on all the cool things that happen on Sunday night to attend Sunday PM worship services. :smilies0121:

According to my wife, they missed "Lassie," and "Disney's Wide World of Color." Of course, they did not have a color TV.

Thus, I can claim with confidence that there were some great advantages to being raised Presbyterian.

However, once I started attending Sunday evening service - as a student at ENC - they became my favorite services of the week. After all, they had that strange and wonderful cultural tradition denied me as a Presbyterian - testimonies.

[Shea Zellweger]

According to my wife, they missed "Lassie," and "Disney's Wide World of Color." Of course, they did not have a color TV.

Thus, I can claim with confidence that there were some great advantages to being raised Presbyterian.

However, once I started attending Sunday evening service - as a student at ENC - they became my favorite services of the week. After all, they ad that strange and wonderful cultural tradition denied me as a Presbyterian - testimonies.

So what you're saying is... Sunday night services were actually just a Nazarene plot to stop members from watching television?

[Dale Cozby]

I haven't read this whole thread but just wanted to add this.

We are preparing to begin an evening service again after many years without one. It will be contemporary, the worship team will be people who do not help in or cannot attend morning worship. The target group will be 15-35 yrs old that find AM worship a bit hard to roll out of bed in time to make or people who have work schedules that prevent attending AM worship. Also there are some people who would like to come to our church, but have commitments to other churches in the morning.

I really don't expect any of the older people to attend this service(except myself)
I am hoping to also find it is easier to get guest speakers for a Sunday PM engagement than an AM engagement.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

We have a Sunday evening service, The Remembrance, usually with between 8-20 people. Three of the regular attenders are older than 30. The rest are 19-29.

[John Reilly]

On this day there happens to be a backlog at the Pearly Gates. Nothing major, but there's a line of several hundred people waiting to be processed in.

Once in awhile, there's a great cheer from those who are close to the front of the line. The folks in the back are not only anxious for their turn to be admitted into heaven, but they are also curious as to what the cheering is about.

The line moves forward and there's more cheering. "What are they cheering about?" those farther back ask.

Now, they've moved forward and there's a great cheer by those just in front of them. Someone asks the one in front of them, "Did you hear why they're cheering?"

"Yes," she says, "Saint Peter says that Sunday nights don't count."

"Yeaaaaaa!" the group cheers.

I just received an email from the district office in heaven. TO: Scott, From Saint Peter, RE: I have news for all of you. Date: May 4, 2010, 3:45 PM. Sunday Night services do count. Saint Peter is counting them. Furthermore, THERE WILL BE REQUIRED attendance at the Sunday Night Service in Heaven. And the Mantle will Fall! Dennis Scott will be leading the Nazarene Choir, and you Nazarenes will be singing, Hymn 492, "Every Bridge is Burned Behind ME."

[John Reilly]

We have a Sunday evening service, The Remembrance, usually with between 8-20 people. Three of the regular attenders are older than 30. The rest are 19-29.

Way to GO Jeremy!!! Amen. Hallelujah!

[Billie Goodson]

The movement away from formal services in the church (even the informal Sunday and Wednesday night ones) leads me to question the need for a sanctuary. One could question the need for a church entirely. The biggest expense in many of our churches is physical buildings. I would offer that we could probably rent better facilities cheaper that would give us greater flexibility than the churches we build. For some, they run a variety of community outreach programs from the buildings, that perhaps justifies the structures, but not in the configuration that many exhibit.

That would also bring us to the career field of pastor. What it seems we need is not so much a person dedicated to the ministry of the church but more an activities coordinator. Instead of religion, perhaps social service/justice would be a better field of study. Then under the Coordinator, we could have a chaplain who cared to the spiritual matters of the community. Perhaps if social justice is the future of the church, we would be better to employ a full time attorney. So, we would have a structure of a Community Coordinator, Attorney, then perhaps if there is sufficient funding, we could have a Chaplain. That seems to be the ideal structure for the future of our churches in my opinion.

[Cynthia Prentice]

As many of you know the focus of our church's ministry has shifted over the last couple of years. It all began with a decision to sell our property in the "good" part of town, to stay in the inner city, and to change our Sunday evening service. We left our building and our traditional Sunday evening service and went out to the field behind our church. Each Sunday evening we began reaching out to the children living in the apartments surrounding our church with a bounce house, puppets, games, snacks, and a children's program. Children come...teens come and parents will often sit on their apartment stairs or along the fence line...currently more than half the women attending our growth group on Wednesday nights are from the apartments. This shift changed the heart of our church and we will never be the same again...and it all started with changing our Sunday evening service.

(In addition to housing our own congregation we have opened up our building to four other congregations: 2 Spanish congregations, 1 Arab congregation, and an African congregation...also the girl scouts)


Blessings,

Cynthia







Statistics for our area...

Our area has the highest reported HIV infection rate in Tarrant County - Tarrant County Pubic Health.
East Arlington has the highest unemployment rate in Tarrant County - Census Bureau
60% of our children attending East Arlington schools reported that they have been approached by a gang and asked to join or they know somebody who has been asked to join which was reported in a study by Child Protective Services.
36% of our population is illiterate indicated in a report published by the Arlington Independent School District in 2007.
The 76010 zip code includes Hutcheson Junior High School with 769 students. Anderson Elementary School with 621 students, Rankin Elementary School with 704 students, and Johns Elementary School with 946 students all feed into Sam Houston High School. According to the Arlington Independent School District, 89% of the students attending these schools are economically disadvantaged.

[Billie Goodson]

As many of you know the focus of our church's ministry has shifted over the last couple of years. It all began with a decision to sell our property in the "good" part of town, to stay in the inner city, and to change our Sunday evening service. We left our building and our traditional Sunday evening service and went out to the field behind our church. Each Sunday evening we began reaching out to the children living in the apartments surrounding our church with a bounce house, puppets, games, snacks, and a children's program. Children come...teens come and parents will often sit on their apartment stairs or along the fence line. This shift changed the heart of our church and we will never be the same again...and it all started with changing our Sunday evening service.

(In addition to housing our own congregation we have opened up our building to four other congregations: 2 Spanish congregations, 1 Arab congregation, and an African congregation...also the girl scouts)


Blessings,

Cynthia

It seems like we get services mixed up with service... This seems like service to me... I am all for changing the form of our worship, as long as we leave the function alone. This seems like you fully embraced the function in a much better form!

[Billy Cox]

We have a Sunday evening service, The Remembrance, usually with between 8-20 people. Three of the regular attenders are older than 30. The rest are 19-29.

So, do you have to bribe them into attending by having a young-adult 'afterglow' following the service? :)

[Kami Tuenning]

Hmmm... I don't see how we can make any day "sacred," when Paul says quite plainly not to let anyone judge you based on a Sabbath day, but what do I know? As for being gay... well, currently we accept gay people in our churches, and we even accept their homosexuality... we just don't accept homosexual activity. Who knows, maybe that will indeed change.


"We" cannot make any day "sacred" of ourselves, yet we can acknowledge the sacredness of each day as we make space for God. I have tried in recent times to approach the "all of life is sacred" philosophy.

I can remember the days when we packed our 4 children into the old blue station wagon and lined 'm up on the pew for a two hour Sunday Night Service, after having spent 4+ hours in church on Sunday Mornings. No one was negatively influenced per se, but in retrospect, how much more effective could we have been in shepherding our children's hearts "at home" in intentional or even non-intentional togetherness?

Even small groups break up the family on Sunday Nights, my husband has taken a strong stance against this kind of "ministry", preferring families just sharing meals and visits together with other believers and nonbelievers with joy and gladness!

[Jeremy D. Scott]

So, do you have to bribe them into attending by having a young-adult 'afterglow' following the service? :)

No. They come because they appreciate the liturgy.

However, we have been hungering lately for more of a "debriefing" time, to digest together the theme/focus of the gathering. We're considering ways to do this.

[Rich Schmidt]

No. They come because they appreciate the liturgy.

However, we have been hungering lately for more of a "debriefing" time, to digest together the theme/focus of the gathering. We're considering ways to do this.

Two options jump immediately to mind:

1. Incorporate some conversation time into the liturgy.

2. Start a discussion group that follows the service. If food is involved, that's a plus. :)

[John Reilly]

Started to ask about the insurance coverage if the mantle fell on someone but realized the spelling was different. There went another golden opportunity.

Just out of curiosity, what is the insurance coverage if Dennis sings?

This just in from a top secret location in the third heaven, the insurance policy if Dennis sings, Let Thy Mantle Fall on Me" is "Eternal Securities" provided by Predestination Insurance CO, with guaranteed double portion payouts.

[Shea Zellweger]

"We" cannot make any day "sacred" of ourselves, yet we can acknowledge the sacredness of each day as we make space for God. I have tried in recent times to approach the "all of life is sacred" philosophy.

I can remember the days when we packed our 4 children into the old blue station wagon and lined 'm up on the pew for a two hour Sunday Night Service, after having spent 4+ hours in church on Sunday Mornings. No one was negatively influenced per se, but in retrospect, how much more effective could we have been in shepherding our children's hearts "at home" in intentional or even non-intentional togetherness?

Even small groups break up the family on Sunday Nights, my husband has taken a strong stance against this kind of "ministry", preferring families just sharing meals and visits together with other believers and nonbelievers with joy and gladness!

I agree that "everything is sacred," but if that's the case, it still doesn't make Sunday and Wednesday night any more sacred than any other portion of the week.

As for small groups, etc. They don't have to occur on Sunday, and I would never encourage any family to be so involved with the church that they are not caring for their own families. However, assuming your small group meets once per week, that leaves 6 other evenings in which a family can spend ample time together. I don't think it's necessary for families to spend every single night together, and I believe it's good for individuals to receive discipleship apart from one another. Of course, I would prefer to see small groups getting together more than once a week, as I'd like to see them gathering not only to disciple one another, but also to go out and minister to the surrounding community.

[Rich Schmidt]

Shea, I'm pretty sure Richard wasn't trying to make a theological statement with his observation. I read it as more of a figure of speech, as in "sacred cows." It seems a little silly to be having a theological/biblical argument over it.

growing up, i knew sunday am, sunday pm, and wednesday pm were sacred. we used to criicize methodists for 'dropping' their sunday pm services. i wonder who had the guts to start the change?

[Shea Zellweger]

Shea, I'm pretty sure Richard wasn't trying to make a theological statement with his observation. I read it as more of a figure of speech, as in "sacred cows." It seems a little silly to be having a theological/biblical argument over it.

Richard may have meant it that way, but you can't tell me there weren't/aren't plenty of people who genuinely believe that Sundays and Wednesday Evenings really are sacred. I think it's a good idea to establish that no day is inherently more sacred than the rest, and since I'm not entirely sure whether Richard is for or against these things being sacred, I figured my response would either help him demonstrate why they are not, or explain to him why I disagree with him. It's a win-win for me :)

[Rich Schmidt]

Richard may have meant it that way, but you can't tell me there weren't/aren't plenty of people who genuinely believe that Sundays and Wednesday Evenings really are sacred. I think it's a good idea to establish that no day is inherently more sacred than the rest, and since I'm not entirely sure whether Richard is for or against these things being sacred, I figured my response would either help him demonstrate why they are not, or explain to him why I disagree with him. It's a win-win for me :)

I'm sure there are people who find those times sacred in the same sense that they find the organ sacred, the wooden pews sacred, etc. As for considering them really sacred, I can understand people finding Sundays sacred (after all, Scripture calls it "the Lord's day," and it's the day of his resurrection). But Wednesday nights? I don't think so.

To get back to the theme of this thread (somewhat), I'm hoping to be able to start a Sunday evening service this year -- as an alternative to Sunday morning, not an addition. It will likely have a somewhat different feel from our two Sunday morning services, but not drastically. Most of the music and message will probably be the same. Maybe. It's still a hope and dream right now, for the sake of connecting with a new group of people for whom Sunday mornings just don't work.

[Marsha Lynn]

We stopped doing this because the senior pastor felt that those who attended Sunday evening were mainly those who were there when the doors were open ie those who were leaders in the church. He felt they would benefit from more family time.

This seems to be the consensus here -- everyone needs more family time. Is everyone really so busy?

I'm trying to think back to the days when I told people, "I think I've finally mastered the art of being two places at the same time, but I just can't seem to get up to three." That was when my three kids were in grades 7 to 12. Were we really that starved for "family time"?

Tennis was our most time-intensive sport, which I know requires far less time than the "big" sports such as basketball or football, but our kids were involved in band, chorus, musicals, Bible quizzing, and other extra-curricular activities. Still, we managed to have our evening meal together most nights and worked the family schedule around the various activities, attending many of them together.

Nine years ago (pre-vBulletin), someone posted a logic puzzle on NazNet. You probably know the type. "Sally was sitting next to the girl with the green top and across from the boy who ate ice cream for dessert." You have to figure out the names of everyone at the table, what each was wearing, and what each had for dessert. I countered with a real life logic problem. It involved five people starting at five different places. Two were going to a destination 80 miles away. Three were going to another destination 35 miles away. Scheduling was tight enough that those along the way to the destinations could not return home before moving on to their next destination. Four had driver's licenses but one license had a no-passenger-unless-accompanied-by-an-adult restriction. Four vehicles could be used but all four vehicles had to be home at the end of the evening and two of the drivers would not drive the (5-speed) vehicle with the best gas mileage. The solution had to involve getting all five people to their destinations and back and all the vehicles home at the end of the night with the least expense for gas.

As it turned out, the event 80 miles away was cancelled and we all went together to the event 35 miles away, leaving one vehicle along the way (in the town with the tennis courts) to be picked up later. That event was "Indoor Campmeeting". It was a crazy time but I think we were every-nighters that year in spite of keeping up with two tennis teams and high school musical practice. We left a vehicle by the tennis courts almost every night but traveled most of the way together and even took friends along. That WAS family time! Sure it was crazy, but we spent every night together that week. If we had stayed home, we would have been likely to scatter here and there rather than spending that time together.

I guess I just don't get it. What are people doing all week that leaves Sunday evening as the only time to have "family time"? And if they haven't made time for family activities during the week and on Saturday are they really likely to spend time together as a family on Sunday evening? Won't the same activities that keep them apart the rest of the week creep into the Sunday schedule?

Just curious.

Marsha

[Shea Zellweger]

I guess I just don't get it. What are people doing all week that leaves Sunday evening as the only time to have "family time"? And if they haven't made time for family activities during the week and on Saturday are they really likely to spend time together as a family on Sunday evening? Won't the same activities that keep them apart the rest of the week creep into the Sunday schedule?

Just curious.

Marsha

Even if it does not creep in... are you really spending quality time with your family if it's only once a week? For the most part, it seems either families are already having family time, so a small group service some day of the week, or a Sunday evening service, is not going to damage the family, OR families are not having adequate quality time together, in which case a few hours on a Sunday evening doesn't seem sufficient, and there are other things beside a church service that might need to be re-examined. (Tammi K, this is not directed at you, I know you mentioned family time earlier, and don't wish to seem as though I'm speaking out against you, as from what I know of you, I doubt you're neglecting your family, or they you).

[Rich Schmidt]

This seems to be the consensus here -- everyone needs more family time. Is everyone really so busy?

All good points, Marsha. For us, "more family time" isn't the reason we don't do Sunday night services. We've just never done them. It wasn't vital enough during the 9 years we were renting a banquet hall on Sunday mornings for us to rent someplace else Sunday nights to do a service. And now that we're in leased retail space 24/7, I just don't feel the need to add an additional worship service to everyone's week.

I've told our folks before that, ideally, every week they are all (1) together for worship, (2) in a small group for growth & fellowship, (3) using their gifts in service, and (4) reaching out to their neighbors. Number 4 in the list is the reason I usually give for why we don't try to fill their schedules with church activities.

[Marsha Lynn]

Even if it does not creep in... are you really spending quality time with your family if it's only once a week? For the most part, it seems either families are already having family time, so a small group service some day of the week, or a Sunday evening service, is not going to damage the family, OR families are not having adequate quality time together, in which case a few hours on a Sunday evening doesn't seem sufficient, and there are other things beside a church service that might need to be re-examined. (Tammi K, this is not directed at you, I know you mentioned family time earlier, and don't wish to seem as though I'm speaking out against you, as from what I know of you, I doubt you're neglecting your family, or they you).

One interesting point is that Sunday dinner has always been our best attended meal of the week by household residents. That's partly because it's right after church so it makes more sense to eat at home (a mile away) than anywhere else (14 miles to the closest eating establishment with Sunday hours). But I think the Sunday evening church events have also been a factor. If not for that, I would guess the kids would have developed habits that started Sunday afternoon/evening activities with friends immediately following the Sunday AM service. They would have opted for more friend time rather than more family time.

Maybe my confusion here has to do with being too boring to expect people to stick around for "family time" if there are no planned events going on during that time.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

All good points, Marsha. For us, "more family time" isn't the reason we don't do Sunday night services. We've just never done them. It wasn't vital enough during the 9 years we were renting a banquet hall on Sunday mornings for us to rent someplace else Sunday nights to do a service. And now that we're in leased retail space 24/7, I just don't feel the need to add an additional worship service to everyone's week.

I've told our folks before that, ideally, every week they are all (1) together for worship, (2) in a small group for growth & fellowship, (3) using their gifts in service, and (4) reaching out to their neighbors. Number 4 in the list is the reason I usually give for why we don't try to fill their schedules with church activities.

I haven't minded at all giving up the songs and sermon format for Sunday evening, but I do appreciate structured opportunities to hang out with my church family during that time.

The messages sent by the church are sort of interesting.

1. If the only time you see your church family is on Sunday morning, you're not really part of the body, vs. we try to avoid cluttering up your life with church events.

2. You need to spend more time out in the world rubbing shoulders with nonbelievers, vs. we need you here Monday night for strategic planning, Tuesday night for board meeting, Wednesday night for Bible study, and Thursday night for music practice.

I need to spend more time with my church family AND more time with my neighbors AND more time with God AND more time with my family family. Basically, it's the same idea that whatever I'm doing it's not enough. I know you're not sending that message, Rich, but I have encountered it enough that it continues to ring in my ears whether anyone is actually saying it or not. Any time anyone says, "We're going to quit doing this good thing so that you can spend more time doing this other good thing," what I hear is that my current priorities are wrong.

The reality for me is, Sunday evening church activities don't interfere with family time because we are involved in the church as a family. They don't interfere with outreach time because I spend much of my week out in the world rubbing shoulders with people of all demographics and those people are likewise otherwise occupied on Sunday evening. It's the Sunday AM schedule that interferes with my ability to visit my mother and brothers and faraway friends and go camping with my SS group on weekends. But I haven't seen any trend toward eliminating that interference. It seems that would be indicative of misplaced priorities.

On the other hand, I have in hand a nomination form listing four elected positions for the coming church year. I haven't held an elected church position other than delegate to district ass'y (one of the four) for at least 20 years and have no guarantee of election even if I accept the nominations. There are multiple factors pulling me both directions in response to these particular nominations. One of the major cons in regard to the nomination to the SS board is the fact that SS board meetings are held at 5 pm on Sunday. That schedule may be the deal-breaker for that nomination. I consider my Sunday afternoons as sacred time framed and defined by the morning and evening church schedule. Giving up part of the afternoon for a church meeting is not something I want to do. I could campaign for rescheduling the meetings but, in reality, I probably wouldn't have that much influence and by accepting the nomination I would be making a commitment to attend the meetings regardless of when they are scheduled. Not an easy decision here. You can have my Sunday evenings for worship and fellowship but not for a business session.

Marsha

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

A few years ago, after I realized that a majority of our board members had already voted with their feet, I suggested to the board that they reorient our Sunday evenings from the traditional Nazarene Sunday night to a more fellowship oriented approach.

Sunday 1: Food and Fellowship
Sunday 2: Board meeting every other month, otherwise open or committee meetings (I don't like board meeting then, but it seems to work)
Sunday 3: Always open and no committees are to meet
Sunday 4: Ladies' Meeting

So far, it works and I think our board is pretty much okay with it.

[Shea Zellweger]

A few years ago, after I realized that a majority of our board members had already voted with their feet, I suggested to the board that they reorient our Sunday evenings from the traditional Nazarene Sunday night to a more fellowship oriented approach.

Sunday 1: Food and Fellowship
Sunday 2: Board meeting every other month, otherwise open or committee meetings (I don't like board meeting then, but it seems to work)
Sunday 3: Always open and no committees are to meet
Sunday 4: Ladies' Meeting



And of course, a fifth Sunday sing, but that probably goes without saying ;)

[Marsha Lynn]

And of course, a fifth Sunday sing, but that probably goes without saying ;)

Yep, that's what we've got! :smilies0262:

I think our Sunday PM schedule is supposed to follow four purposes -- fellowship, outreach (NMI meeting), discipleship, and service (or something like that). That has kind of fallen apart and the only consistancy is NMI meeting on the third Sunday (unless something interferes and moves it to another week) and a "singspiration" on 5th Sundays. In between we do the various video series unless someone (or some group/committee) decides to plan a fellowship night.

All this was never approved by the board but there are few if any complaints. Maybe it's easier if it is somehow slipped in and there seems to be no particular person or group behind the slippery-slope decision to discontinue the Sunday PM evangelistic hour.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

And of course, a fifth Sunday sing, but that probably goes without saying ;)

We actually don't. When I suggested the change I intentionally ignored 5th Sundays, thinking it would be good to have a little wiggle room. So far, there's been no popular uprising to add any permanent thing to our 5th Sunday nights.

[Billie Goodson]

So far, there's been no popular uprising to add any permanent thing to our 5th Sunday nights.

The "unpopular" uprisings are self-quelling! :)

[Shea Zellweger]

We actually don't. When I suggested the change I intentionally ignored 5th Sundays, thinking it would be good to have a little wiggle room. So far, there's been no popular uprising to add any permanent thing to our 5th Sunday nights.

Now Scott, I have it from a very good authority that you claim to the "classic gospel southern style." I demand that you start a 5th Sunday sing, or I am going to have to petition for your "classic gospel southern style" status to be removed.

[Mike Schutz]

I guess I just don't get it. What are people doing all week that leaves Sunday evening as the only time to have "family time"? And if they haven't made time for family activities during the week and on Saturday are they really likely to spend time together as a family on Sunday evening? Won't the same activities that keep them apart the rest of the week creep into the Sunday schedule?


The activities could and do creep in. However, here is our thought process - which I am not suggesting is at all relevant for anyone else.

1. Busyness does not equal holiness. However, we had a well-entrenched culture of such in our church, combined with a culture that sent strong, guilt-filled messages that every time the church doors were open, you needed to be there.
2. We had folks that were using church programs and activities as ways of never connecting with the world - never, none at all. Some were not having any impact at all in our world because of the "blessed fellowship" found at church.
3. We were burning out our key workers, especially our moms.
4. I admire those preachers who have two fascinating, scintillating, life-changing messages in them every week. I don't. I have one good, worthy-of-listening-to message on Sunday morning, and a really good teaching time at mid-week. If folks want more teaching, I could give them that. But more sermons - I can't do it, at least not as well as they deserve.

So, we decided to "Stop, Drop, and Roll."

We spent time, as a church board and then as a congregation, talking and listening and praying. We found that people wanted permission to not feel guilty when they were making different choices - they were already making the choices.


*We told folks that it was our strong opinion that everyone should attend one community worship service a week - and at this time we only offer it on Sunday mornings.
*We told folks that it was our strong opinion that everyone should attend a small group every week. And that those are offered throughout the week, but most choose Sunday morning as well.
*We told folks that it was our strong opinion that everyone should be involved in at least one significant ministry. And that they should be involved in no more than two ministries that required outside time and planning (either committee work, teaching, etc).
*We told people - often and with conviction - that there was absolutely no expectation that they be present every time the church doors were open. Most people believed us - but some did not.
* We then asked people to live for a few months with this schedule, and then asked them what we should add, if anything, on Sunday afternoons and evenings. They supported flexible, family-oriented fellowship (small groups of families getting together to "do life" events) that they could invite neighbors who do not attend our church, and events like children's choir, women's fellowship, etc. No one wanted all-church worship services.

This is not working perfectly - and some folks are of the opinion it is not working well at all. Because our Sunday school/adult conversations/Sunday youth group happens after our Sunday AM worship service, a small group of folks (mostly senior adults) regularly and with fervor complain that there is no intergenerational casual fellowship, that they think would happen if we were hanging out after church. Everyone goes to their groups, and then disperses from there to home, restaurants, other events. So there is no time for Saint Hazel to come up behind little Johnny and rustle his hair. Some believe that if we went back to a Sunday night event that everyone attended together, this would happen. This conversation happens regularly in one of the committees of the church board. When the younger folks tell the older folks that young families have no desire to come back to church to sit in an event that they would spend trying to keep their kids quiet, the older folks don't believe them. Then someone begins reminiscing about the good old days of NYPS programs followed by Sunday night missionary meetings, and the eyes glaze over.

I agree that there would be great benefit to intergenerational fellowship, and that Sunday afternoon/evening offers the potential to be a great time for it. But, in our church, as long as the older folks continue to think of such events only in the box that they once knew - and are not willing to participate in any events outside of their box - and as long as the young folks (under 50) see no value in jumping into that box, and great value in what is already going on, we are going to struggle with it. Hopefully, when our new rec/fellowship building is erected in the fall, we will be able to do such thing.

[Marsha Lynn]

This is not working perfectly - and some folks are of the opinion it is not working well at all. Because our Sunday school/adult conversations/Sunday youth group happens after our Sunday AM worship service, a small group of folks (mostly senior adults) regularly and with fervor complain that there is no intergenerational casual fellowship, that they think would happen if we were hanging out after church. Everyone goes to their groups, and then disperses from there to home, restaurants, other events. So there is no time for Saint Hazel to come up behind little Johnny and rustle his hair. Some believe that if we went back to a Sunday night event that everyone attended together, this would happen. This conversation happens regularly in one of the committees of the church board. When the younger folks tell the older folks that young families have no desire to come back to church to sit in an event that they would spend trying to keep their kids quiet, the older folks don't believe them. Then someone begins reminiscing about the good old days of NYPS programs followed by Sunday night missionary meetings, and the eyes glaze over.

I agree that there would be great benefit to intergenerational fellowship, and that Sunday afternoon/evening offers the potential to be a great time for it. But, in our church, as long as the older folks continue to think of such events only in the box that they once knew - and are not willing to participate in any events outside of their box - and as long as the young folks (under 50) see no value in jumping into that box, and great value in what is already going on, we are going to struggle with it. Hopefully, when our new rec/fellowship building is erected in the fall, we will be able to do such thing.

Interesting. I suggested a couple of years ago that we think about the worship-first format for Sunday morning and the idea went nowhere. In light of your post here, I'm glad for that. Losing our post-worship all-church fellowship would be a high price to pay for the format change. The intergenerational foyer talk following the morning service is one of the best things that happens around here.

I'm over 50 and trying to pull plans together for this Sunday night (Mother's Day) when there is no official church activity. But in my case it's because the under-50 crowd is going to do something anyway. I'm just trying to be proactive enough to get a plan together in time to make sure everyone knows about it and is invited. Otherwise, the plan will be made during the post-church foyer fellowship on Sunday morning and not everyone will stick around long enough to find out about it. We risk doing serious damage by letting spontaneous outings happen without making sure everyone is invited and enabled (by receiving some notice) to participate.

For Easter Sunday evening around 20 people participated in our unofficial, no-obligation activity "on the grounds" -- ages 5 to 80 with the majority between 15 and 50. We have too many people who already have plenty of "family time" or whose family is scattered to insist they find fellowship outside the church group for such evenings. I understand that those who usually conduct our Sunday evening events enjoy the time off, but I feel like someone needs to step into the gap and provide an alternative to sitting home alone on these "holiday" Sunday evenings.

I guess the contrast here is between those who feel like the church is a place of "perpetual obligation" (Garrison Keillor's phrase, I think) and those who see the church group as their primary source of fellowship and friendship. The "perpetual obligation" group cancels the evening schedule so they can spend time with people whose company they really enjoy (family) while those whose social life revolves around the church (family) group have to scramble to fill in the blank space. Neither group is spending time down at the local bar hanging out with sinners and yet each is mildly disapproving of the fellowship choices of the other.

[Billie Goodson]

The activities....
I agree that there would be great benefit to intergenerational fellowship, and that Sunday afternoon/evening offers the potential to be a great time for it. But, in our church, as long as the older folks continue to think of such events only in the box that they once knew - and are not willing to participate in any events outside of their box - and as long as the young folks (under 50) see no value in jumping into that box, and great value in what is already going on, we are going to struggle with it. Hopefully, when our new rec/fellowship building is erected in the fall, we will be able to do such thing.

Mike,

I simply love the way you wrote this. (The entire post.... I just kept that part so everyone would know which post I was talking about.)

[Tami Martin]

This seems to be the consensus here -- everyone needs more family time. Is everyone really so busy?

...

I guess I just don't get it. What are people doing all week that leaves Sunday evening as the only time to have "family time"?

No one else really answered this, so I will. I'm working Marsha. I, like many others, work long hours at a job to provide for my family. On Saturday, all those "womanly" things that my mom did during the week (she, of course, was a stay at home mom) need doing. We do have baseboards and they do need cleaning. So does the yard need mowing and all sorts of other chores. Sometimes we do family stuff on Saturday...but guess where those chores get pushed to? Yep. Sunday. They have to get done.

Me working and not being home to take care of our home is the biggest reason I chafe at going to evening services. Sometimes I just want to sit on the sofa and watch the History channel with my son and talk about what's going on in our lives.

[Marsha Lynn]

No one else really answered this, so I will. I'm working Marsha. I, like many others, work long hours at a job to provide for my family. On Saturday, all those "womanly" things that my mom did during the week (she, of course, was a stay at home mom) need doing. We do have baseboards and they do need cleaning. So does the yard need mowing and all sorts of other chores. Sometimes we do family stuff on Saturday...but guess where those chores get pushed to? Yep. Sunday. They have to get done.

Me working and not being home to take care of our home is the biggest reason I chafe at going to evening services. Sometimes I just want to sit on the sofa and watch the History channel with my son and talk about what's going on in our lives.

Tami, clean baseboards are way overrated. I had a stay-at-home mom and I never saw her clean a baseboard. I didn't even know they were supposed to be cleaned. (We were always amazed if we came home to kitchen counters that could be seen.) But that's all right. After 25 years in this house, we just got baseboard in the living areas this week. I guess it's time to start cleaning them now. ;)

I count being a stay-at-home mother for sixteen years as one of the greatest blessings of my life. Even as I wrote my post I realized I didn't have a leg to stand on. I would have deleted it if not for the working mothers I know. There are two in my SS group. One called on a Thursday evening a couple of weeks ago to see if my daughter wanted to go walking. A group of ladies from the church walk together on Tuesday evenings and she was wanting to go out a second time. When I told her my daughter wasn't home she invited me to join her. But I was too busy to take the time. Mothers who work full time and still look for adult activities in the evening amaze me! How in the world do they do it?

I think it's sad that church competes for family time for you rather than supplementing it. It takes me back to a time when my children were young and we (gasp!) skipped a SS activity. Later, the teacher asked me why we didn't attend. Let's see ... I mentally sorted through the reasons, which weren't particularly clear to me.

1. It was at a nice restaurant 35 miles from home -- adults only. I was raised with four brothers, a stay-at-home mom and a school teacher dad. I never developed a taste for fine food and "atmosphere." I was a young stay-at-home mom with small children. I had no interest in paying someone to watch them so I could go out without them and pay a small fortune for a large quantity of food that didn't taste any better to me than fast food (if even as good). Maybe if the destination had been a McDonald's with a playground ...

2. There were others in the group who didn't have the financial resources for such an outing. One couple in particular lived 15 miles in the opposite direction and were surviving financially by practicing a very simple lifestyle. I wasn't interested in a group event that excluded part of the group.

I think I muttered some vague response to the question about not feeling up to it. The teacher let me know that people generally manage to do what they want to do. In other words, if I were a better person I would want to hang out with the group enough to get a babysitter (something I never ever did unless there was pressure from the church to do something without them) and cough up the money for the outing regardless of those who couldn't join us. Oh, brother. Who knew that spiritual maturity could be measured by attendance of church social events sans children? She and her husband went into fulltime ministry soon after that. I wonder if she still doles out guilt to those who don't participate in the activities she plans.

It doesn't have to be like that. The other working mother in my current SS group is a nurse and works every other weekend. A couple of years ago we got together about this time of the year to have an activity-planning activity. We made a list of possible activities for the summer, marked a calendar with her work schedule, and started filling up every Saturday she had off unless someone else was busy. After a while, I stopped the process and pointed out to her what we were doing. Didn't she want to reserve some of her weekends for family? No, she was fine with what was happening. After all, both her teenage sons were involved in every activity. Together, we were planning bunches of "family time" for them -- with friends to join them.

It's too bad Sunday PMs don't work that way for you -- a chance to spend an evening with your son and his church friends and yours. Maybe you need to rebel against the format that drags you down rather than lifting you up. I hope and pray something changes so that your responsibilities aren't so draining for you, Tami.

Marsha

[Cynthia Prentice]

It's too bad Sunday PMs don't work that way for you -- a chance to spend an evening with your son and his church friends and yours. Maybe you need to rebel against the format that drags you down rather than lifting you up. I hope and pray something changes so that your responsibilities aren't so draining for you, Tami.

Marsha

Marsha,

I would be curious to know Tami's MBTI personality type. What recharges the batteries of an "E", drains the batteries of an "I". One isn't better than the other...just different. I am an INTP whose "I" comes very close to being an "E". I am not shy or "introverted" in the traditional sence of the word. I spend a lot of time with people and I enjoy every minute of the time spent. But when it comes to energy... people drain me...activities with people drain me...even when those people are from my church. My batteries need to be recharged. As an "I", if I had Tami's schedule I would probably spend my Sunday nights at home with my family, but I am a stay at home mom/pastor's wife and I recharge on Mondays.

Blessings,

Cynthia

[Marsha Lynn]

Marsha,

I would be curious to know Tami's MBTI personality type. What recharges the batteries of an "E", drains the batteries of an "I". One isn't better than the other...just different. I am an INTP whose "I" comes very close to being an "E". I am not shy or "introverted" in the traditional sence of the word. I spend a lot of time with people and I enjoy every minute of the time spent. But when it comes to energy... people drain me...activities with people drain me...even when those people are from my church. My batteries need to be recharged. As an "I", if I had Tami's schedule I would probably spend my Sunday nights at home with my family, but I am a stay at home mom/pastor's wife and I recharge on Mondays.

Blessings,

Cynthia

Excellent point, Cynthia. Thanks for making it. I'm with you on the Monday recharge thing. If I didn't have Mondays off, I would likely insist on not only having my Sunday afternoons free (God said we could take one day off a week and I take that permission seriously) but also ALWAYS being home by 8:00 on Sunday evenings so I could fit in some recharge time then.

[Tim Bourland]

[QUOTE=I actually know of a CotN in Michigan that is booming because they only offer a Sunday evening service. Their whole strategy is to minister and provide a worship setting to people who like to spend their Sunday morning with Pastor Pillow and Deacon Sheets.[/QUOTE]

I am currently planting a church with this philosophy of the unchurched at play. Our preview services currently - and regular services at launch date - will only be on Sunday evening. One of our major PR "talking points" is to encourage everyone to enjoy their "weekending" uninterrupted and then to use the worship time, at the end of the weekend, as a time to prepare for the new week. Our response has been very favorable.

[Tami Martin]

Marsha,

I would be curious to know Tami's MBTI personality type. What recharges the batteries of an "E", drains the batteries of an "I". One isn't better than the other...just different. I am an INTP whose "I" comes very close to being an "E". I am not shy or "introverted" in the traditional sence of the word. I spend a lot of time with people and I enjoy every minute of the time spent. But when it comes to energy... people drain me...activities with people drain me...even when those people are from my church. My batteries need to be recharged. As an "I", if I had Tami's schedule I would probably spend my Sunday nights at home with my family, but I am a stay at home mom/pastor's wife and I recharge on Mondays.

Blessings,

Cynthia

I can't tell you the letters right off the top of my head, but since I work at a mental health center, I have done that particular personality inventory and I can tell you (well, even before the test I could have told you!) that my batteries are recharged by being alone and quiet.

While I was a stay at home mom, it was much easier to just spend that "charge" on church activities. When I went back to school it got a little harder, but now that I work, I actually use more energy on interacting with people that I am really comfortable with. I have about 70 families that I have the care of in one way or another. I have to go to meetings and talk to people all day. Then on Sundays, I lead music and have to spend most of my day - again - spending that energy that by this time I have little of.

I need solitude to charge my batteries and I get almost none of it. So while someone else would have probably be able to fit lots of church stuff into their life with my schedule, I just can't do it.

[Billy Cox]

What recharges the batteries of an "E", drains the batteries of an "I". One isn't better than the other...just different.

That's nice, but I think we both know that the church secretly prays that the introverts would repent of their extreme selfishness, get out of their comfort zone and do what extroverts do effortlessly. I have opted to simply weather the condemnation and guilt when it invariably comes.

The only thing worse than a Christian who avoids strangers is one who goes through the motions of being friendly, but doesn't carry off the charade.

[Susan Unger]

That's nice, but I think we both know that the church secretly prays that the introverts would repent of their extreme selfishness, get out of their comfort zone and do what extroverts do effortlessly. I have opted to simply weather the condemnation and guilt when it invariably comes.

The only thing worse than a Christian who avoids strangers is one who goes through the motions of being friendly, but doesn't carry off the charade.Hadn't heard that one before...and I am an introvert!

[Billy Cox]

No. They come because they appreciate the liturgy.

However, we have been hungering lately for more of a "debriefing" time, to digest together the theme/focus of the gathering. We're considering ways to do this.

btw, I was being sarcastic about the bribery thing.

[Richard Stevens]

Once a year, I would sing 'follow the yellow brick road' during the sunday evening service. ok, not out loud. then conviction would strike me, and i woud return to the sermon about the 'streets of gold'.

[Craig Laughlin]

We too are thinking about starting a Sunday night service that is designed to reach a different demographic. Current thinking is that we will go into the multi-purpose room and sit around tables. We will have different people do the music, we may make food available. (Room is located next to the Kitchen) We will offer nursery but not not children's worship. The sermon will be a repeat of the morning service but done in a dialogical format. After the the group discussion table captains (we won't call them that) will lead a continuted conversation around the table and a connecting prayer time. They will close with each table taking communion together.

This service would be designed to reach in order
1. - 20 somethings that are looking for something different
2. - College Kids
3. - People who have been out playing all weekend but want to get to church at the end of the weekend. (The Northwest has lots of recreation)

We will have to kill our Sunday night traditional Nazarene service to make this happen. Not looking forward to that. There are only a few folks but they have been faithful through a lot of change and I know this will be hard on them.

FYI - We will probably also start a Saturday night service that is "Worship Unplugged" in which the music is just our worship leader on an acoustic guitar. The service will be even more laid back than Sunday morning. We will provide nursery and Children's worship on Saturday nights. -

- This is what we are currently thinking about and it may change. We are talking about launching in October

[Billy Cox]

We too are thinking about starting a Sunday night service that is designed to reach a different demographic. Current thinking is that we will go into the multi-purpose room and sit around tables. We will have different people do the music, we may make food available. (Room is located next to the Kitchen) We will offer nursery but not not children's worship. The sermon will be a repeat of the morning service but done in a dialogical format. After the the group discussion table captains (we won't call them that) will lead a continuted conversation around the table and a connecting prayer time. They will close with each table taking communion together.

This service would be designed to reach in order
1. - 20 somethings that are looking for something different
2. - College Kids
3. - People who have been out playing all weekend but want to get to church at the end of the weekend. (The Northwest has lots of recreation)



My church did a Sunday evening service for about 9 months. It was identical to the Sunday morning services in every way, except that we never reached a critical mass. A few times, there were more people staffing the service (band, nurseries, sound, media) than attenders.

[Craig Laughlin]

My church did a Sunday evening service for about 9 months. It was identical to the Sunday morning services in every way, except that we never reached a critical mass. A few times, there were more people staffing the service (band, nurseries, sound, media) than attenders.

Yeah, this is clearly an experiment. However, there are several churches out here doing this. In fact many have moved away from the Saturday night service. I think this is in part because Saturday night is so hard on the support people. That demand on staff is why we are talking about Saturday night as "unplugged" - Code for as easy as possible.

[Sarah Smith]

It was our privilege to live in a small town once, without a local Naz church, and so attend an evangelical church of another stripe.

It was a sleepy little church of about 150 people. They had Sunday School, then morning worship, a discipleship time, evening worship, and Wednesday prayer meeting. It was in an oil field area, and many people had to work day shift on Sundays.

A new pastor came, determined to reach out and win the community AND entice folks to drive from the bigger towns to that sleepy little church. Part of what they did was to determine NOT to stop any of the services due to lack of folks to prepare music. If necessary, they committed to hire a pianist and organist. As the church grew, first extra staff person hired was a music director/musician. This allowed them to push a great, prepared music program for Sunday morning AND still be able to play whatever folks wanted from the hymnal, or whatever the pastor chose from the hymnal, for the rest of the services.

Now, in addition to small groups meeting about every night of the week, they have Bible study followed by cowboy church on Saturday nights, early morning contemporary Sunday service, then SS, then traditional Sunday 11:00 a.m. service (best attended), plus discipleship Bible study Sunday night followed by a Sunday night service plus Bible study/fellowship time/prayer meeting on Wednesday nights.

Attendance is running about 1800. Last I heard they had senior pastor, music pastor, youth pastor, and a family life pastor, in addition to a full time counsellor on staff and janitors/maintenance crew. One thing the pastor made clear at the get go: he would do two sermons, same one Sat. night, both Sun. a.m., and another for Sunday night. (Now with more staff not sure what they do.) He encouraged folks to pick ONE Bible study and ONE worship service per week. Attend more if you like but it would not be expected of anyone.

Seemed to work. Everybody could find a worship style they could resonate with, and find a Bible study/service time they could attend.

And yes, the pastor worked his kiester off, as did most of the laypeople, but that church grew as those surrounding it that had been cutting services died off.

[Tim Bourland]

but that church grew as those surrounding it that had been cutting services died off.

So, was that growth all un-churched people? If not, what percentage was unchurched? If the percentage was low, was it really a gain for the Kingdom, or simply a reallocation of numbers?

[Sarah Smith]

I'm sure we picked up some folks from other churches and some new to the kingdom of God.

I don't live there now so don't have percentages but can try and email and find out.

I can say that the churches that died off or shrank dramatically while we were there, all totalled together, probably would add up to less than 300 people. When that church was at 150 it was the largest church for miles around. I do know that it has supported missions and ministries in the surrounding county. I do know that the larger churches in the rest of the county (not that town) are still there and apparently still growing, also.

I know that in the subdivision I lived in, the people who started coming to that church under that pastor were people who had not been reached by other churches: either unsaved, or saved and unchurched.

I do know the pastor visited every oilfield office he could find, every construction company office, local fire/police/ambulance stations, schools, stores, businesses, ranches, farms, etc. He expected his flock to do visitation both en masse on Tuesdays and more informally by visiting and inviting neighbors who were unchurched.

His attitude was "we aren't into rustling and will support other churches, but if they have mavericks and don't brand them we will be happy to do so."

Just my observational guess, but I do believe most of the new members were previously unreached people new to the kingdom.

[Susan Unger]

His attitude was "we aren't into rustling and will support other churches, but if they have mavericks and don't brand them we will be happy to do so."

I just loved that whole turn of phrase...:ihe_cowboy: