Waving Mexican flag gave the wrong message??? What is your opinion??

[Judy Hamilton]

Waving Mexican flag gave the wrong message
Our view: Reacting to student protests, community is more sensitive about foreign symbols, in part because of 9/11 attacks
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 04.03.2006
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When you want to relay an important message, clarity is vital. You don't want to send mixed signals or express your views in a way that can be misinterpreted or, even worse, seen as a threat.
We bring this up because protesters who have rallied against possible immigration reforms in the Legislature and Congress are apparently confusing a lot of people in our community.
In demonstrations and school walkouts in Tucson and other cities, the participants said they want to be contributing members of the United States. Then they shouted, "Viva Mexico."
They said they wanted to remain part of the American fabric. Then they waved Mexican flags.
They said they are willing to be assimilated into our culture and learn our language. But many of their placards were written in Spanish.
There were also American flags, English chants and English placards at these demonstrations. But if the goal of the protests was to sway people toward supporting immigrant rights, why risk alienating others with symbols and words that are not American?
When you are seeking allies, it helps not to create foes.
Concerning the student protests in Tucson, Superintendent of Public Instruction Tom Horne said Friday that flying the Mexican flag "tactically was a big mistake."
John A. Garcia, a political science professor at the University of Arizona, said the behavior of the protesters is understandable. Many Mexican immigrants and their supporters feel their culture is being attacked, he said, so they defend themselves by displaying that culture.
"Part of who they are is being attacked and denigrated. They're being portrayed as a horde coming across the border," Garcia said. "They are proud of who they are, but their Mexican side is being run through the coals."
Immigrants in general are very proud of where they come from. In the recent World Baseball Classic, Americans of Mexican, Japanese, Korean and Dominican descent, among others, heartily cheered for their teams.
But when it comes to immigration, it seems that displaying a little national pride is counterproductive.
Flying the Mexican flag only gives more ammunition to critics of illegal border crossers who call them invaders. Shouting "Viva Mexico" and holding up Spanish placards sends the wrong message about assimilating into American society.
The use of Mexican symbols in U.S. protests isn't new. Chicano protesters in the '60s also waved the Mexican flag. When the late César Chávez was forming the United Farm Workers union, the Virgin of Guadalupe, a popular Mexican symbol, was prominent in marches.
The recent protests are different. Our community is more sensitive about foreign symbols.
Garcia said one factor could be the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
"The attacks increased feelings of nativism, nationalism, patriotism," Garcia said. "A lot of people feel we have to close ranks as Americans. It's us versus them."
Or it could be this issue is eroding our tolerance for each other. After years of inaction, lawmakers are finally attempting to forge a solution for illegal immigration and no one — whether they've lived here 50 years or five — quite knows what to expect.
As the issue drags on in legislatures and Congress, there are sure to be more protests.
We remind members of our community, no matter which side of the issue they're on, to remain civil.
No matter what symbols you see or display, don't be quick to offend or to be offended.

[Marg Webb]

My neighbo from Finland wanted to fly her countrys flag. She mentioned it to me and I told her she was allowed if she flew it below the US flag.
She refused and purchased the colors of Finland and hung it below the US flag.
What is wrong with being angry if someone insults our country's flag like the Mexicans are doing.????

Marg.

[Judy Hamilton]

Marg

to quote your question

" What is wrong with being angry if someone insults our country's flag like the Mexicans are doing.????"


I can answer your question with photos i took Memorial Day at Arlington
trying to focus as my vision blurred with tears..disclaimer..
i did not take the middle photo ...

Judy

[Judy Hamilton]

defense of the American flag is deeper than i truely comprehend
To see her flown upside down renders a pain the young and those
whom have not endured the struggles, and pain of defending her will never comprehend.
And this includes those immigrants from Mexico who seem to
relish in desecrating the American flag..Under the protectorate of the very
flag whose country they are seeking a new lease on life

www.alighthouse.com/flag.htm - 11k

Judy

[Paul Whitaker]

Entirely the wrong messsage. No debate.

[Bruce Carriker]

I really am fairly liberal on immigration issues, and I try to take seriously what I understand the Bible telling us about caring for the poor, the homeless, the hungry, the naked, the prisoner, and the alien in our midst. Having said that, I am an American and I spent well over half my adult life in her military service.

There is a place for people who cherish their Mexican heritage, and place Mexico above every other country. That place is Mexico. Let them go there.

That this is a country of immigrants, no one can deny. But it is mostly a country of immigrants who came here NOT JUST to live in America, but to become Americans. Everyone who wants to become an American should be welcome here. Everyone who wants to be something else, and merely enjoy the benefits of living in America should be invited to go back where they came from...on the first available plane, bus, train, taxicab, or hot air balloon headed that direction.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

What is the relationship between the article you posted and the pictures you posted? Were those pictures published with the article?

The article was about Mexicans waving their flags in a show of pride in their heritage, etc. Meanwhile, the pictures you posted where clearly anti-American.

The pictues you posted are giving the wrong impression of what the article was talking about and serve no purpose other than to inflame anti-Mexican sentiments.

This thread, purposefully or not, gives the impression that this is typical, "Mexican," behavior. (Note phrases like, "those immigrants from Mexico who seem to relish in desecrating...," and, "... insults our country's flag like the Mexicans are doing.")

I could post a picture of an American burning a flag and everyone would be upset with that particular individual American. No one would say, "See how Americans treat the flag."

Wilson

[Judy Hamilton]

Wilson

It saddens me to answer..that the photo posted of the Flag of Mexico
above the American flag (raised upside down) was hoisted just a few days
ago by a group of Mexican students in a high school in CA
who along with their families were/are protesting
the strigent immigration laws proposed by Congress.
youth nor the adults who have not a clue to the history of
the Stars and Stripes...the battles she has won..and lost..
and how beautiful this flag to those
who read the words engraved on the Statue of Liberty

Give me you're tired you're poor..
your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
the wretched refuse of your teeming shore
send these the homeless tempest tosses to Me
I lift my lamp beside the Golden Shore


I agree with Bruce..those who are needing to escape a wretched
life of abuse and abject lack and poverty...come to America!!

However be so yearning for the freedoms our forefathers died to give
us, ...including not only the soldiers of WWI and WWII and Korea
but also the pilgrims who endured horrors in their lives
and those who died when blazing rigors beyond our endurance
along the Oregon Trail..and working building the railroads among other visionaries
for whom our country is known
Appreciation for this government is displayed in acceptance
of our language and way of life and in respect of the Stars and Stripes.

I am all for communities wanting to maintain their own inherent
cultures and not lose their indivuality, however
not to the extent that our schools teach their children in spanish and provide
medical and educational benifits for those who slip between the lines
and do not pay into the tax system which supports their necesities of daily life.


Judy

[Jim Franklin]

When it comes to being a nation of immigrants I have told my Native American students that instead of the term "melting pot" used by some historians, political scientists and editorialists, I believe the term "tossed salad" is more accurate because no matter where in this country you go one can find enclaves of different heritages which are readily identifiable rather than melted together to become indistinguishable but are still one "dish." These students here certainly have a separately identifiable culture but are very proud of the "codetalkers"--Navajos who communicated in their own language during WWII which was never broken by the Japanese and was a major factor in winning the war in the Pacific theater.
This week a new "Codetalker" video was shown on the ASU educational channel and at the end a young lady sang the "Star Spangled Banner" in Navajo and a Navajo lady, her daughter and son in law who were watching with me identified the singer as a former student of Sun Valley Indian School.

[Marg Webb]

Come on Wilson. Our FLAG was BELOW THEIRS. DO YOU MEAN THAT WAS OK. I DON'T THINK YOU DO????
MARG.

[Donna B Moore]

Wilson said
I could post a picture of an American burning a flag and everyone would be upset with that particular individual American. No one would say, "See how Americans treat the flag."

The difference is exactly that - an AMERICAN burning the flag - it is a huge difference - not folks living here under a lie and then complaining. Good Grief. It was not just one instance of anti Americanism or anti American Flag - it was all over the country - Mexican flags, colors etc and telling California, for instance, that the land actually belonged to Mexico and that they were just migrating and did not have to immigrate. It may not have been typical Mexican behaviour in the past, but it was typical at these gatherings.

The waving of the Mexican flag was probably to show more than their heritage - consider our flag waving - pride in our country etc. I think these events have opened the eyes of the United States citizenry- causing a much different result than was intended.

[Judy Hamilton]

Not only was the American flag flown BELOW the flag of Mexico

The Stars and Stripes was flown UPSIDE DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what message was this screaming????????????

Judy

[Marg Webb]

I believe all people coming into this country should enter under our set law's for entry.
There was an illegal walking away from his Van here. A Deputy stopped to help him, saw that he was out of gas, had the man get in the Van with his gas can and started to town for gas. The illegal, CARRYING A GUN shot the Deputy , blew his brains out, for no reason. This Deputy and his Father, who is on the Force ,
have always been kind and helpful to all.
Well now Ohio has an emigrant in prison here for the rest of the man's life and we all will be paying for his keep.
A young Mother is now raising two little boys without a Father
I know there is room for arguement here by some. BUT this country has a better system for citizenship than many others and it SHOULD BE ADHERED TO.!!!
That is the only way to separate the "goats from the sheep".
An emigrant from the same country as the murderer, who is a Legal Citizen was so upset, he and his legal help gave a monetary collection to the family and also ask and received an interview from the press, stating their digust and anger about the murder.
Some will say, "well this is just one happening in maybe a thousand", well that one happening has made a family bereaved and there is no filling that space.
Also this murderer has hindered thos that are hear trying to obtain their citizenship.
Oh well one can go on and on, but my thinking is "go my the laws of any emigrating country".!!
If you don't make it, try again.
Marg.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I was trying to make two primary points:

1) The activities described in the text of the article are not that same as the activity shown in the picture. The activity in the picture was much worse.

2) The picture was being carried out by some Mexican immigrants but is not representative behavior of all Mexican immigrants.

I still think both of those points are valid.

Wilson

[William Hunter]

Yes, we are a nation made up of people from other countries, but we are also a nation of laws. Our law makes way for a certain number of people to come to our country each each from many countries---but legally. I believe all illigals should be deported and they can apply to come here like other law abiding people. I do not agree with this amnesty approach that lets people get away with breaking the law. Illegals hould not be allowed to obtain driver's licences here, obtain SS cards when they have not worked legally and put anything into the SS system, etc. I'm all for receiving others into our country, but through legal means. The illegals are invovled in criminal behavior and demonstate their lack of moral ethics, who will do whatever they want rather than live by the law.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

BUT this country has a better system for citizenship than many others and it SHOULD BE ADHERED TO.!!!
That is the only way to separate the "goats from the sheep".


A extremely disappointing choice of metaphors. To try in any way to draw an analogy to the sheep and goats in such a way as to imply that we are sheep and illegal immigrants are goats is very disappointing indeed.

In a way, however, I'm glad you brought it up. Note the story the metaphor comes from...

Matthew 25:31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. [32] All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [33] He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left....

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison , and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The truth is, that immigrants--even illegals (note the above applied even to treatment of those in prison)--fit into the category of, "the least of these."

If we don't treat immigrants and immigrant-wannabes well, we will find ourselves to be the goats!

Wilson

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I do not agree with this amnesty approach that lets people get away with breaking the law.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Fortunately for us, God does believe in the amnesty approach!

The illegals are invovled in criminal behavior and demonstate their lack of moral ethics, who will do whatever they want rather than live by the law.

Just like the guys who took part in the Boston Tea Party, and the rest of the Revolution for that matter. That was criminal behavior demonstrating a lack of moral ethics.

Shall we talk about all the Americans, (including "Christians") who knowingly, willfully violate speed limits? That is criminal behavior demonstrating a lack of moral ethics.

My point is that we can't throw a blanket over this and act like all "law-breaking" is the same.

In the case of immigrants, we are talking people breaking unjust/unfair laws for the purpose of securing the unalieanable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We are not talking about thieves, rapists, and murderers (in spite of the fact that some Mexicans have stolen, raped, and murdered--so have some Americans).

Wilson

[Bruce Carriker]

When it comes to being a nation of immigrants I have told my Native American students that instead of the term "melting pot" used by some historians, political scientists and editorialists, I believe the term "tossed salad" is more accurate because no matter where in this country you go one can find enclaves of different heritages which are readily identifiable rather than melted together to become indistinguishable but are still one "dish." These students here certainly have a separately identifiable culture but are very proud of the "codetalkers"--Navajos who communicated in their own language during WWII which was never broken by the Japanese and was a major factor in winning the war in the Pacific theater.
This week a new "Codetalker" video was shown on the ASU educational channel and at the end a young lady sang the "Star Spangled Banner" in Navajo and a Navajo lady, her daughter and son in law who were watching with me identified the singer as a former student of Sun Valley Indian School.

"Tossed salad" implies that everything remains the way it is...just in the same bowl. That's not what America is, even among those ethnically identifiable groups who retain some of their heritage and culture. Few, if any, of those groups retain ALL their heritage and culture. They do become part of this American thing.

"Melting pot" perhaps implies too much...that like a potful of crayons raised to the melting point, we all become this amorphous blob, with no ethnic or cultural distinction. I don't believe that is correct. But it's more than salad, where if I take the tomato out and rinse it off, its still an unchanged tomato.

It's more like a pot of stew. If I throw a couple of bay leaves in a pot of stew, they don't become cubed beef, or potatoes or carrots or peas or onions...they're still bay leaves. But their flavor changes (which is really pretty nasty...ever eat a bay leaf?) and so does the flavor of everything else in the pot. I can still identify the corn, the potatoes, the beef...but they have all been changed by the other items with which they share the pot.

The other thing to remember is that even among the groups that retain some semblance of ethnic/cultural identity, there is still assimilation. They may be successful for the first generation...or the second generation. But how many 3rd and 4th generation descendants of European immigrants still speak Italian, German, Polish? The "mother tongue" eventully fades away, because outside the family, or the extended family/neighborhood in some ethnic communities, it has no function in America.

My grandmother is "Pennsylvania Dutch". She was born in America, but she grew up in a "Pennsylvania Dutch" community. Until she was in third grade she went to a school where they were taught in German. She learned to read and write in German. But none of her children ever spoke a word of German. Three of her grandchildren do, but only because we were military and stationed in Germany. It has nothing to do with us being descended from German immigrants.

Subsequent generations become "Americanized", whether the ancestors like it or not. I think we need to reject the "tossed salad" analogy. It implies that we can all maintain our own language and our own culture and resist assimilation and still be American. We can't. We can be "X-ers" living in America, or "X-Americans", but we can't be truly American so long as we refuse assimilation.

[Bruce Carriker]

Come on Wilson. Our FLAG was BELOW THEIRS. DO YOU MEAN THAT WAS OK. I DON'T THINK YOU DO????
MARG.


I don't believe that's the picture to which Wilson is referring. I think he's referring to the pictures of what I presume to be Arlington National Cemetery.

I completely understand Wilson's point. While they are very nice photos, they are completely unrelated to the protests of the immigrants. That the immigrants were disrespectful in their treatment of the flag is not in question. But what does that have to do with grave markers in Arlington?

[Judy Hamilton]

Bruce

The photos of the Arlington Cemetary and the American flags was
in response to Marge who asked this question


to quote Marge's question

" What is wrong with being angry if someone insults our country's flag like the Mexicans are doing.????"
me here
I can answer your question with photos i took Memorial Day at Arlington


now Bruce to address your statement..
In answering Marge's question.. i posted photos

the photos were and are appropriate to make a "no words necessary" statement as to the significance of the American Flag...Look again closely at the photos..and you will find the Stars and Stripes are the focus of each photo..a silent voice that speaks volumes

and therein the reason raising the Flag upside down is not acceptable to Americans

Judy

[Judy Hamilton]

I recieved the below e-mail from a Vietnam friend..and as
we here on NN have been known for weak stomachs in the face of street-side current events..i found an article that dealt with this sensitive issue in a gentler manner than does the article he sent me...his take and the article are posted below exactly as recieved..the two photos go with this inflammed article

THE AMERICAN FLAG COMES SECOND-I THINK NOT

OK , yes I am offended!

I have had enough! I believe in the FIRST amendment but I also believe there is a line to be drawn. This is it , its our country not everybody else’s, if we let it get trampled what does it say about how we really feel about it. I have learned if you don’t stand for something you’ll fall for anything...... are we falling for anything? As a disabled Veteran who fought for the rights of all people I am appalled we have let this get so far. As an immigrant who's family came into this country legally. I received my citizenship in 1967 in Anchorage Alaska. This is not freedom of speech, it is insulting to all who have ever given their lives in the line of duty. Maybe we should deport them and let them miss what they illegally had here.

My political rant of the day.......... these pictures just really ...... me off.

If you feel the same way pass it on, if not just trash it.

Roman


EVERY AMERICAN SHOULD SEE THIS.
ILLEGAL MEANS ILLEGAL
THE AMERICAN FLAG COMES SECOND
By Michelle Malkin http://michellemalkin.com/ · March 29, 2006 01:15 AM http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004869.htm

You will not see this heart-stopping photo on the front page of the NY Times or on the lead story of the major news networks.
You should http://www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_3645827


03/28 : Student protest in Whittier area students from Pioneer, California and Whittier high schools walked out http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12056872/ of classes to protest the proposed federal immigration bill March 27, 2006. The protestors put up the Mexican flag over the American flag flying upside down at Montebello High.
(Leo Jarzomb/Staff photo)

More:





Meanwhile: Mexico Cheers Passage of Immigration Bill http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/03/28/international/i014326S82.DTL>

Like I said: Welcome to reconquista. http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004848.htm

I predict this stunt will be the nail in the coffin of any guest-worker/amnesty plan on the table in Washington. The image of the American flag subsumed to another and turned upside down on American soil is already spreading on Internet forums and via e-mail. Pass this along to every American citizen in your address books and to every representative in the state and federal government. If you choose to remain uninvolved do not be amazed when you no longer have a nation to call your own nor anything you have worked for left since it will be "redistributed" to the activists while you are so peacefully staying out of the "fray". Check history, it is full of nations/empires that disappeared when its citizens no longer held their core beliefs and values. One person CAN make a difference. One plus one plus one plus one plus one plus one.........
The battle for our secure borders and immigration laws that actually mean something, however, hasn't even begun.

Judy here

hope this clarifys the confusion...and my friend's article does not upset this board

[William Hunter]

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Fortunately for us, God does believe in the amnesty approach!



Just like the guys who took part in the Boston Tea Party, and the rest of the Revolution for that matter. That was criminal behavior demonstrating a lack of moral ethics.

Shall we talk about all the Americans, (including "Christians") who knowingly, willfully violate speed limits? That is criminal behavior demonstrating a lack of moral ethics.

My point is that we can't throw a blanket over this and act like all "law-breaking" is the same.

In the case of immigrants, we are talking people breaking unjust/unfair laws for the purpose of securing the unalieanable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We are not talking about thieves, rapists, and murderers (in spite of the fact that some Mexicans have stolen, raped, and murdered--so have some Americans).

Wilson

Wilson, I think you are taking your statement a bit too far. The Bible also says we are to obey the civil laws of our country. Now these who are here illegally are not doing that---they are acting out in criminal behavior. Also, if they do not respect the laws of our country concerning immigration, what makes us think they will be law abiding citizens anyother time? I'm sorry, but if they cannot obey the laws just like people from other countries who want to come here, then they really do not belong here. If our nation accepts everyone bent on braking our laws, then we end up with anarchy. Somewhere there needs to be a line drawn and I belive that line is at the point of law and obeying the laws we already have that have been approved and practiced for some years and laws that most of the people in this world obey when wanting to come here. People here illegally have no grounds to believe they will be delt with accept according to just laws.

[Bruce Carriker]

I don't disagree that illegal immigrants are breaking the law. That's why they are called "illegal" immigrants in the first place. That's one of the sillier arguments FOR the "guest worker" program the President proposes, over against tougher immigration laws. "Do you really want to criminalize the behavior of 11 million people who are already here?" That's just a stupid, stupid question. Their behavior is ALREADY criminal.

However, Wilson's critique of the argument that because they've broken one law suggests they will break others is also valid. Speeders who knowingly speed don't necessarily become drug dealers. People who commit adultery (which is actually still against the law in most states) don't necessarily "graduate" to robbing banks. People who lie on their taxes aren't automatic candidates to move on to rape or assault.

TECHNICALLY, the Civil Rights movement in this country broke a lot of laws. A lot of lily-white Christians used that as a reason to oppose the movement, using it as a shield for their own racism.

I don't agree with the protests that took place last week. I don't believe that illegal immigrants should receive preferential treatment over those who are trying to immigrate legally. I don't believe that business should be allowed to continue exploiting an illegal labor force, rather than pay fair wages to American workers and legal immigrants.

On the other hand, I do believe that much of our immigration policy is based in racism or nationalism or elitiesm, rather than reason and justice. And while I disagree with the protests that took place last week, I do understand them.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

... I do believe that much of our immigration policy is based in racism or nationalism or elitiesm,...

Stuff like the "send this picture (of the upside down flag) to everyone you know" and the "letter to the President" that Judy posted would make me want to add "emotions" to the list.

Wilson

[Marg Webb]

THANK YOU JUDY FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE SENT.!!

I was at a friends funeral last week and a man came up
to me, so happy to see me. I did not recognize him.
Here he was one of our first baby's in the church born late after WW2.
He really is only 55. He looks seventy. Nothing but skin and bones, teeth all loose that are still there. Hair white as snow, face wrinkled. His eyes were nice and bright, but he was so pitiful. He shook slightly and was very hesitant in speech.
You see he too was in Nam, came home addicted to pain medication. He is still very ill with bowel inflamation, very seriously.
Next month he will have MORE surgery at a Veterans hospital for bowel problem. They now think it is Diverticulitis. He has become successful in business, but the three years in Nam made him an old man. He cannot work anymore.

My brother was injured in the Battle of The Bulge, his Buddy killed and died in his my brothers arms. I immediately went to Battle Creek Veterans Hospital to see him when he finally arrived.
Into a ward, with such a stench of rotting flesh, soldiers in baskets swinging from the ceiling, lost all limbs. Sunken eyes, but so glad to see an American girl.
I was still in H.S..
This is just a tiny happening in my life, but I am ready to do whatever I can to help send the word to back our movement to send those they can back to Mexico and let them enter like all of our ancesters did.
We, my husband and I are very PROUD OF YOU and the help you gave our fighting men.
Sincerely
Marg. and George
.