Olathe Murder

[Vivian Cornwell]

For anyone interested, tonight (Saturday) on CBS at 10 PM EST there is a special about this case. It is called: "A Knock at the Door."

After about 20 years when some investigators knocked at Melinda's door, she changed her story and that caused the change in events.

[Marsha Lynn]

Thanks for posting this, Vivian. I rarely watch TV and wouldn't have caught it. It was interesting.

Marsha


For anyone interested, tonight (Saturday) on CBS at 10 PM EST there is a special about this case. It is called: "A Knock at the Door."

After about 20 years when some investigators knocked at Melinda's door, she changed her story and that caused the change in events.

[Paul Whitaker]

Thanks. It was quite sobering. Satan is still alive and well.

But, Jesus is Lord!

[Vivian Cornwell]

The full text of the one hour program, 48 Hours Mystery, is posted on the Internet.

If anyone is interested, there is a video of Melinda being questioned by the police at the link below:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/16/48hours/main1412110.shtml

[Bruce Carriker]

I guess there were two things that really struck me, watching that show:

1) Justice was still not served. Mark Manglesdorf and Melinda Raisch will be eligible parole in something like 5 years, assuming the judge accepts their plea agreements.

2) If the very first words out of Melinda Raisch's mouth had been, "Please leave now. If you want to talk to me, I'll need to call my attorney first," then they would have gotten away with this murder. She is a great example of what NOT to do when the police show up at your door.

[Andrea Larabee]

This was a fascinating story. In my eyes, whether you murdered someone yesterday or 20 something years ago, you should still get life in prison... or how about the family of the murder victim choosing your sentence for you! I suppose they got the lesser sentence, not just because they confessed, and it was over 20 years ago... but possibly because they've proven to society already that they can function normally, are not "insane", and pay their taxes?? I have no idea, but I'm curious!

I am glad they both confessed-each having their reasons (one, for a lesser prison sentence) for doing so.

I was bummed that in the article somebody called the murder incident "A Nazarene Divorce". OUCH!! NOT NICE!! Makes us look bad. I guess they don't realize in the Bible it says God hates divorce. (Other than we can divorce if we are abused or there is an extra marital affair)

[Marsha Lynn]

I guess there were two things that really struck me, watching that show:

Something I found interesting was that towards the beginning of the show Mark Manglesdorf looked straight at the camera (or maybe the reporter) and said, "I did not kill David Harmon." Later he confessed that he did indeed kill David Harmon.

For those who watched the show, did your internal lie detector alarms go off for either statement?

Marsha

[Billy Cox]

I guess there were two things that really struck me, watching that show:

1) Justice was still not served. Mark Manglesdorf and Melinda Raisch will be eligible parole in something like 5 years, assuming the judge accepts their plea agreements.

2) If the very first words out of Melinda Raisch's mouth had been, "Please leave now. If you want to talk to me, I'll need to call my attorney first," then they would have gotten away with this murder. She is a great example of what NOT to do when the police show up at your door.

It was very disturbing that neither of the murderers expressed any remorse.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

It was very disturbing that neither of the murderers expressed any remorse.

Have you ever found a murderer of this nature be remorseful?

[Kevin Bowser]

My internal lie detector was going "Ding, ding, ding" all night long!

[Andrea Larabee]

It was very disturbing that neither of the murderers expressed any remorse.

I wonder about this. Is remorse a phase like grieving or anger, etc.? Because if it is, then in the 23 years since since the incident, they may have desensitized themselves to their crime. They did make an attempt to "put it behind them." When I've done something wrong...i.e., gotten angry or unforgiving against someone, let me tell you, it weighs me down till I come to terms with it.

It's scary! Makes you wonder who you're really sitting next to at church or the children's soccer game.

[Marg Webb]

I agree with you Andrea. Who are we sitting next to.
I was raised in this atsmophere because of the different professions my relatives had in law. To this day, I never look at someone and think what a nice person. I always have this , are you what you appear to be.
If these people had been of any other race, they would have been long gone.

[Doris Grant]

Ok I must be the trusting one. I believed him until the very end. I did not see his confession coming. It hit me. You guys would make better detectives than I would. haha And I always thought I was a good judge of character.

Doris

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

You guys would make better detectives than I would. haha And I always thought I was a good judge of character.

Doris

Is that good or is that bad?

i hate the detective side to me. i rarely ever seek to detect something - but when i have i have been rarely wrong. i have often prayed for this detectiveness to be taken away from me - i don't want to know anything ----

[Gina Stevenson]

Is that good or is that bad?

i hate the detective side to me. i rarely ever seek to detect something - but when i have i have been rarely wrong. i have often prayed for this detectiveness to be taken away from me - i don't want to know anything ----
'Know the feeling, as there've been too many times I've sensed/"detected"/discerned some things I'd rather have not noticed ... too often confirmed later on.

[edit: reading this thread, BTW, sort of makes me wish I'd have seen it, afterall, rather than merely reading the transcript the link led to, after the fact.]

[Bruce Carriker]

Ok I must be the trusting one. I believed him until the very end. I did not see his confession coming. It hit me. You guys would make better detectives than I would. haha And I always thought I was a good judge of character.
Doris

Don't sell yourself short, Doris. Our "justice" system is largely "just" in name only. I say they got off easy, and IF they're guilty, they did.

The simple truth is, innocent people plead guilty and take deals all the time because 10-20 years with possibility of parole after 5 years is WAY BETTER than life without possibility of parole. If you're facing this choice:

5 years, with a pretty good chance of parole after that; or

50-50 chance of going to jail for life, with no parole;

how willing would you be to plead guilty to something you didn't do?

We complain a lot about how defense attorneys manipulate the system, but prosecutors do it to.

Who knows, Doris? Maybe you're the one who read him right after all.

[Billy Cox]

When Melinda was convicted, it pretty much sealed it for Mark. She was convicted on conspiracy to commit murder and it takes two to commit conspiracy.

I have come to believe that anyone who can hit a stationary target with a crowbar could do what Mark Manglesdorf did. I believe that there is a road down which a person's mind goes, and towards the end of that road a seemingly good person finds a way to rationalize cold-blooded murder.

[Bruce Carriker]

Logic would seem to support your statement, Billy. Still, I'm not certain that's correct. Without Melinda Raisch's testimony, there was not much of a case against Mark Manglesdorf. Even with it, the case isn't real strong.

The case against Mark Manglesdorf was so weak that the DA, Paul Morrison...who's in a tough race for state attorney general against an opponent who has already said that he'll portray Morrison as soft on crime...cut an almost unprecedented deal. He asked the judge to SET ASIDE a conviction on murder and conspiracy, so Melinda Raisch could cop a plea to lesser charges. That's a pretty good plea bargain. You get to take your chances with the jury and then, after they convict you, you can still get your plea deal. No way Morrison does that if he thinks he's got a strong case against Manglesdorf. Consider:

There was no murder weapon.

There was very little forensic evidence, and none I'm aware of that specifically put Mark Manglesdorf in the Harmon bedroom that night.

There was a motive that hinged entirely on whether or not you believe Melinda Raisch's tale of a romantic involvement; and even then, only if you believe that she actually believed that murder was preferable to divorce.

Basically the prosecution's case amounted to stories that didn't add up. That's a far cry from proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Intuitively, I believe they probably did it. But if I'm in a jury box, I'm not allowed to act on my intuition. I have to decide based on what the prosecution can prove. With minimal hard evidence and only Melinda Raisch as a witness to implicate Mark Manglesdorf...and based on what we know from public news accounts of the case...I think he's got a good chance to establish reasonable doubt.

BUT...if he rolls the dice and loses, he's looking at anywhere from 20 years to life, and the possiblity if he gets life that it could be life without parole. OR, he can take a plea, and be almost assured that he'll be out in five years.

[Andrea Larabee]

If these people had been of any other race, they would have been long gone.

Interesting comment here? If they had been of another ethnic background, financially unstable, blue collar, etc. would their sentence be different?

[Andrea Larabee]

Ok I must be the trusting one. I believed him until the very end. I did not see his confession coming. It hit me. You guys would make better detectives than I would. haha And I always thought I was a good judge of character.

Doris

You're not alone actually. I did not get to see the show but read the transcripts. When the lady told her first version of the story, (back in 1982, which was a lie), I thought he was innocent because she said after she was knocked out and them came to, she ran next door to get him (the friend). At that point I thought the friend was innocent. But as time went on, the truth came out. Plus how could this gal brutally beat her husband to death by herself. He could have jumped out of bed and restled her to the ground and gotten the crow bar from her. The friend definitely helped. I don't believe he would've given false confession.

***I have already forgotten their names and did not refer back to the article to write this. So I hope this makes sense to you. :basic03 ***

[Bruce Carriker]

Andrea,
You ask, "...how could this gall brutally beat her husband to death by herself..." Simple. If he's sleeping, he's unconscious. First blow with the crow bar guarantees he stays that way. Everything after that is simple.

If she gets in one good whack while he's still sleeping, there's no struggle, no wrestling, no defensive actions on his part. It's entirely plausible that she could have acted alone.

Also, if you believe they're guilty, then you believe they'be been lying for 20+ years. Why would you suddenly take the position that the guy wouldn't give a false confession to avoid a possible sentence of life without parole? He was a liar for two decades, but now he wouldn't lie?

[Barb Bouldrey]

If I remember articles during Melinda's trial, it came out that when she called this "friend' to come over, his hair was wet when he arrived....in the middle of the night. It appeared he had just taken a shower....in the middle of the night.

I have also heard that the police found traces of blood in his shower drain, but this was all before DNA was invented.

At the end of the show I wondered which time he was telling the truth.

And, about the lack of remorse being shown...it would seem that after all these years there would be a sense of relief that the carrying of this secret was finally revealed.

All of this for love? And then that love never became reality. People who kill spouses to be with someone else cannot be happy with the other person. The sharing of the guilt would destroy their relationship.

Barb

[Bruce Carriker]

Barb, I think you're right in just about everything you say. On your last point, it's not just people who kill spouses. So many times, people who leave spouses for another person wind up suffering the same guilt (maybe not quite so great as in a murder) and it destroys the new relationship.

For the record, I do believe they probably did it. I think it is a least problematic as to whether or not the prosecution could have made their case against Manglesdorf. And I don't think either of them ever serves a day if she doesn't totally crumble when the police show up 19 years later to question her again.

She should have remembered Nancy Reagan's anti-drug slogan: "Just Say No."

"Could we speak with you?"
"No."
"We'd like to ask you a few questions."
"No."

Some folks are just not cut out to be criminals.

[Sue Pyles]

Re: Olathe Murder.
It is hard for me to comprehend the situation. The story truly saddened me, but at this time I believe we should concentrate our efforts and thoughts on praying God's Grace and Mercy on those this situation affects including Kristina Manglesdorf and her cildren, Mark Mangelsdorf's children from his first marriage,David Harmon's father and fiance, Mark Raisch and his children, Dr. and Mrs. J.Wilmer Lambert and even Mark Mangelsdorf and Melinda Raisch.Many others have been affected by this tragedy and nothing is going to change what happened. But, God can bring peace in the midst of the storm.


=== This is an automatically generated message ===

This is my first post. My Welcome thread is here. Please post all my welcome messages there.

=== This is an automatically generated message ===

[Billy Cox]

Re: Olathe Murder.
It is hard for me to comprehend the situation. The story truly saddened me, but at this time I believe we should concentrate our efforts and thoughts on praying God's Grace and Mercy on those this situation affects including Kristina Manglesdorf and her cildren, Mark Mangelsdorf's children from his first marriage,David Harmon's father and fiance, Mark Raisch and his children, Dr. and Mrs. J.Wilmer Lambert and even Mark Mangelsdorf and Melinda Raisch.Many others have been affected by this tragedy and nothing is going to change what happened. But, God can bring peace in the midst of the storm.[COLOR="Red"]



The local news here in the KC area played footage of what David Harmon's father had to say to Raisch and Manglesdorf in court.

Let's just say he didn't ask them to join him in singing 'The Family of God'.

[Sue Pyles]

Mr. Cox,
I will never be able to comprehend what Mr. Harmon must be going through these days. He has lost his only son and his wife of many years. I have never suffered those kinds of tragedies.

I can testify to the peace I have felt in other areas of tragedies through the prayers of the "Family of God". I had people praying for me at a time I seemingly couldn't pray for myself.

I believe with all my heart that Mr. Harmon is a committed christian who would openly welcome the prayers of other believers.
I read the comments he made at sentencing.I have a very personal interest in the whole scenario.
He has a right to feel anger and hurt. He has a right to ask questions. But I also think he has the right to feel the arms of God reaching around him for the comfort and peace he needs .
I hope I wasn't misunderstood in my previous quote.

[Billy Cox]

Mr. Cox,
I hope I wasn't misunderstood in my previous quote.

Not at all. It was just a clever way of saying that the whole murder/lying thing broke fellowship for many Christ-followers. Even with the defendants going to jail, there was no apology, no remorse.

Manglesdorf said he pleaded guilty so that he could get the punishment over with and get on with his life...as if he had been caught running a red light and was required to take a defensive driving course. (...and with Raisch cooperating with the prosecution, he knew that the jig was up)

[Sue Pyles]

They both seemed apologetic at the sentencing.
I realize the whole thing has left a bad taste to alot of people, but hopefully the sentencing will help bring some closure to those that may need it.

[David Penrose]

I am responding to the entire thread. I knew both Mark and Melinda, personally. I grew up in St. Louis as was actually closer to Mark's older brother Ray, but played softball with Mark. We probably lived 5 miles apart. I met Melinda while attending MANC in 1980, through my dealings with the Dean of Students (positive) ... there are many details of the events that have not been disclosed. The characterization of the "Nazarene Divorce" is also wrong.

First, Mark was not only the Student Body President, he also was the recipient of the Pioneer Image Award - sort of like Mr. Nazarene! Memories, even after the murder of Mark in chapel, being embraced by Rev. Paul Cunningham (now General Superintendent) haunt me ... why? Murder, adultry, false witness, and coveting his neighbors wife!

In 1982, contrary to the media assertion, divorce was not frowned upon unless you were or wanted to be an ordained minister. Any claim to the contrary was certainly superficial at best. So why did Melinda make that claim? Could it be that it was the only lame excuse she could come up with? Could it be that her father was not only an ordained minister, but had been a district superintendent of the Dakota district?

What was taught in the church at the time was "avoid the appearance of evil" (1 Thess 5:22). Something that neither of them could do, were becoming the focus of attention by both David (the victim) and close friends. Mark was popular but not very social. This is probably why, it was Don Stelting (Vice President of the Nazarene Bible College, but then Dean of Students) who invited Mark into his home after David was murdered.

The crime, the sin, the tragedy is that not only was this act committed but that the facts were falsified and innocence was claimed (vehemently) and thousands of individuals deceived into supporting these two! It is not my place to exercise justice in this matter. It is not even my place to judge.

Friends, here is the truth ... we are all sinners, saved by grace. There is a reason, and this is certainly a perfect example of why, we should "Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working." (James 5:16). Something has to change if our world is to be transformed by G-d. We need to learn to be mutually accountable to one another. Share not only our love but our struggles, our temptations, our weaknesses. How can we ever effectively pray for one another if we are not aware of the battles that we each face.

I know that my posting may leave a lot of unanswered questions, but I felt the need to respond to your discussion - one Nazarene who was there.

David


=== This is an automatically generated message ===

This is my first post. My Welcome thread is here. Please post all my welcome messages there.

=== This is an automatically generated message ===

[Billy Cox]

I am responding to the entire thread. I knew both Mark and Melinda, personally. I grew up in St. Louis as was actually closer to Mark's older brother Ray, but played softball with Mark. We probably lived 5 miles apart. I met Melinda while attending MANC in 1980, through my dealings with the Dean of Students (positive) ... there are many details of the events that have not been disclosed. The characterization of the "Nazarene Divorce" is also wrong.

First, Mark was not only the Student Body President, he also was the recipient of the Pioneer Image Award - sort of like Mr. Nazarene! Memories, even after the murder of Mark in chapel, being embraced by Rev. Paul Cunningham (now General Superintendent) haunt me ... why? Murder, adultry, false witness, and coveting his neighbors wife!

In 1982, contrary to the media assertion, divorce was not frowned upon unless you were or wanted to be an ordained minister. Any claim to the contrary was certainly superficial at best. So why did Melinda make that claim? Could it be that it was the only lame excuse she could come up with? Could it be that her father was not only an ordained minister, but had been a district superintendent of the Dakota district?

What was taught in the church at the time was "avoid the appearance of evil" (1 Thess 5:22). Something that neither of them could do, were becoming the focus of attention by both David (the victim) and close friends. Mark was popular but not very social. This is probably why, it was Don Stelting (Vice President of the Nazarene Bible College, but then Dean of Students) who invited Mark into his home after David was murdered.

The crime, the sin, the tragedy is that not only was this act committed but that the facts were falsified and innocence was claimed (vehemently) and thousands of individuals deceived into supporting these two! It is not my place to exercise justice in this matter. It is not even my place to judge.

Friends, here is the truth ... we are all sinners, saved by grace. There is a reason, and this is certainly a perfect example of why, we should "Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working." (James 5:16). Something has to change if our world is to be transformed by G-d. We need to learn to be mutually accountable to one another. Share not only our love but our struggles, our temptations, our weaknesses. How can we ever effectively pray for one another if we are not aware of the battles that we each face.

I know that my posting may leave a lot of unanswered questions, but I felt the need to respond to your discussion - one Nazarene who was there.

David


Thanks for your post David and welcome to NazNet.

I had imagined what the MNU community must have been like when Mark and Melinda were accused of murder. It's good to hear from someone who was there.

Some here on NazNet have spoken about the Nazarene Church being under the Evil One's assault during this 'affair'. I believe this to be the case, but we must also acknowledge that two iconic Nazarenes opened the door wide open and gave the Evil One an engraved invitation.

As for divorce, the Nazarene Church in 1982 did frown on divorce (still does now to a lesser degree), but it did not lead to expulsion. Mark and Melinda could have stayed in the church post-divorce/remarriage, but their reputations would have been severely tarnished even without the help of the rumor mill.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Hi David, great seeing your post. You, perhaps, don't know me, but i have many memories of Penrose Lane. Couldn't help but have a few flashbacks when i saw your post.

Lessons learned through the course of time. So many stories, this is just one that grace our heritage. i say heritage, for it is a part of who we are - like it or not.

Our heritage is deeply rich in all areas - accomplishments and enlightments, sins and pain.

Grace - Mercy - Forgiveness - What is my responsibility and what is yours

Basically these words were just words in a dictionary, until we arrived in Olathe to begin the Seminary journey - that has forever changed our life course; some ways positive and some ways negatively. Our time in the area was after the time that is reflective in these posts. Our time was during the journey of learning the lessons of grace, mercy, forgiveness, what is my responsibilty and what is yours. Lessons that were not just spoken in dramatic tones but lived out in ways that leave me very somber as i penn these words. For this murder isn't the only *nazarene* murder of the area, the only *nazarene* story that rocked my world and those around me. As i watched those who were *higher than i* - reach to extend grace, mercy, forgiveness - and teaching those of us struggling to find a footing in the soil that was shifting to fit our inprint, "What is your part in this? Of what is it yours to speak? What is your responsiblity and what is it not?" Lessons that i didn't understand the words. i would listen and watch and shake my head - -but they were patient. They kept teaching and i kept struggling to comprehend and learn.

More than once - i kept hearing the words, "Only by the grace of God - it could have been me. Only but by the grace of God - go i."

Faces of my mentors flash before me today. You see - they never spoke of this incident. i am amazed that i walked among so many and never ever was this spoken. i have learned of it since being here at NazNet. i understand more what i saw in their eyes, now. i understand more the passionate, patient, urgency of the lessons, now.

Your post has moved me as lessons flash once again - the nail needing to be hammered a bit harder.

Mercy, Grace, Forgiveness - Only by the Grace of God, Go i

For a long time now, one of my firm foundations in life is to make lemonade out of lemons. How can we make lemonade out of this lemon?

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

This afternoon, i explored google.com to read articles regarding this event.

i have a mixed bag of emotions as i sit here.

First and foremost at this point in time - i am THANKFUL that Melinda and Mark have confessed - for whatever reason. You see, we - the church - don't always make it easy to confess a deed/crime. i believe that Melinda had come the end of her road in her heart. She has moved on - but when her head hit the pillow at night - she still heard the sounds, smelled the smell, felt the hormones floating in the air that met with violence. i believe that Melinda was grateful and relieved to finally talk to the detectives.

i think that one can live in secret for only so long and then truth must come forth.

Why am i THANKFUL that Melinda and Mark have confessed? Not because i am glad they are behind bars - i never like seeing that. Though, it is truth that you must pay the price for your deeds. i am thankful because maybe now they can find peace. i am thankful now- because should they make things right with God - they won't have to pay in eternity. We have a choice - sit behind bars here or sit in an eternity jail after we die.

i am THANKFUL for Dave's family's sake. They were finally able to speak to Melinda and hopefully will be able to move to healing and peace. i wish i could give them a massage today. They need a lot of healing graces extended to them.

i am THANKFUL for Melinda's immediate family's sake. i can't imagine how Melinda's father must have felt all these years. It eats at the inner soul and one must stay busy constantly in order to not have the quiet moments that render questions and doubt.

For Melinda's husband and children - i can't imagine their thoughts or feelings. That would creep me out.

i don't know enough about Mark's family to have any thoughts.

i am woman and i can relate most to Melinda. For Melinda's sake - i am glad that she has an opportunity to pay the price this side of eternity.

i am very thankful that someone else wasn't convicted of this crime and paid even one night unwarranted. May all those who sit on the other side of the bars innocently - be allowed to walk free.

[Gina Stevenson]

Belinda Y, this one statement of yours ...

i am very thankful that someone else wasn't convicted of this crime and paid even one night unwarranted. May all those who sit on the other side of the bars innocently - be allowed to walk free.

... reminded me of a program that I don't even know if it's on anymore. I saw it a few times just in the last several months ... it was about old cases being opened up, finding the real perpetrators ... letting those wrongly incarcerated go free, etc. Seeing as I don't usually have a stomach for watching anything crime-related, this was a stretch ... but guess my penchant for justice overrode that queasy crime-related distaste for me to be able to become interested in such a program.

Tamed down a lot in the last couple of decades, was once quite a crusader for justice ... the underdog ... etc ... so, a remnant of that let this catch my attention. It is sad when people are wrongly convicted, through circumstances, wrong suspicions, etc.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

It is sad when people are wrongly convicted, through circumstances, wrong suspicions, etc.

The irony to all of this is that i have witnessed the Church wrongly convict people for decades. They don't have to serve sentences behind bars but they have to serve sentences of *being ignored* when it comes to their talents and gifts being used for Kingdom's sake. Yet, when a real crime occurs - many will rise to defend and protect the guilty. The ones who attempt to render justice are the ones who are *causing strife* and *stirring trouble*.

We are weird.

The more i live the more i think that humanity is right down weird. We have the purest of motives. We don't mean to get things mixed up, but we do. We are so weird.

Back to the subject of serving an unwarranted sentence - to me, the one who committed the original crime is guilty of two murders not one. Murder is the taking the life/livelyhood away from another. Sometimes it is by removing oxygen from the body - other times it is bondage. Murder is a relative word.