Disturbing...and in desparate need a greater understanding

[Judy Hamilton]

and i am certainly anemic in the amount of love i have for
these peoples...i am serious..i repent and ask the Lord to help me
understand them and love them

It melts..Jesus love melts..does it not????


Islam's "Religion of Peace" street demonstration

Below I have enclosed pictures of Moslems
who marched throughout the streets of London
during their recent Religion of Peace Demonstration.

These pictures have never been shown
in any of our American
newspapers or television news programs
now

Why would anyone think that we are at war ???

[Judy McDonald]

Thank you for showing those pictures. They should be on the front pages of ever newspaper in America. Did you take them? If so, would you forward them to several newspapers... or FOX News (they might actually post them)? I really don't believe most Americans understand the intensity of hatred Islam has for the rest of the world. It is surely demonically inspired. On Yahoo news this morning there was an article about a Muslim Open House in Milwaukee and one "Christian" was thinking seriously of converting after seeing everything Islam has to offer!

[Wilson L. Deaton]

and i am certainly anemic in the amount of love i have for
these peoples...i am serious..i repent and ask the Lord to help me
understand them and love them

Judy,

Please realize/remember that within any body (especially when you consider the size of Islam) there are going to be extremists. You cannot let the extremists define the entire body. Seriously think about the range of belief and behavior amongst those who call themselves Christian. Think about the Kansas "Church" that protests at military funerals. Would we want Muslims to show pictures of them and say, "This is what Christianity is like"?

My daughter recently visited a Mosque (for a class assignment) and listened to "leader of the day" (they don't really have pastors, etc.). He explained many things and fielded questions, etc. He also provided literature that they produced (as opposed to what some "Christian" wrote about them) that explains their beliefs, etc. Reading that material dispells many of the stereotypes that is being propogated. One of the things that came through was that "most" Muslims are in fact peace loving, etc. The kinds of pictures you posted represent an extremist minority. The typical Muslim that you will bump into on the street here in America need not be feared and is not plotting to kill you. Again while there are some extremist exceptions, as a rule, Islam (like Judasim) is not even "evangelistic" in that sense they feel an urgency to convert.

Besides what was said that day she says they were treated very graciously. They were served cookies, pop, etc. They mingled in small groups and let them continue to ask any questions, etc. They seemed glad to have the opportunity to explain who they really were. They were invited into the prayer area during one of the prayer times to observe (which they did). They even provided a translator during the "Call to Prayer" and beginning portion of the prayer until eventually the translator joined the prayer.

May I suggest you find a source to study/learn that doesn't already have an anti-Muslim perspective. Make plans to visit a Mosque or at least find some real live local Muslims and talk the them about their beliefs....

Wilson

Remember (this is some of my own analysis), Muslims would tend to view us in a similar way that we would view a somewhat heretical Jew. Imagine a Jew who got a little mixed up and then failed to acknowledge Jesus. They believe Jesus was a good prophet whom we got a little mixed up about (Paul "made" Jesus a deity) and then we failed to acknowledge Muhammed as a prophet. (They fail to understand our concept of the Trinity and believe we believe in more than one God.) They believe they are the true worshipers of the same God we claim to worship (except the Trinity part). Allah is simply the Arabic term for "God." An Arabic Christian would still use the word, Allah to mean God.

[Gerald Spear]

Judy,

Do not be deceived by the message of love that the followers of Islam
are producing today.

Read, "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam(and the crusades).

John Wesley on Islam:
"Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it
...have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind."

(from The Doctrine of Original Sin, Works (1841), ix 205)

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Judy,

Do not be deceived by the message of love that the followers of Islam
are producing today.

Read, "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam(and the crusades).



Judy,

This book that Gerald recommends will be a great resource if you want to get your information on Islam from a book that defends the Crusades as justifiable and shames us for not being proud of them!

This book apparently goes so far as to teach that any good you see and hear from Islam (For example, the way they treated my daughter?) is part of a huge conspiracy and cover-up to lull us into lowering our defenses....

Wilson

[Judy Hamilton]

Judy,

This book that Gerald recommends will be a great resource if you want to get your information on Islam from a book that defends the Crusades as justifiable and shames us for not being proud of them!

This book apparently goes so far as to teach that any good you see and hear from Islam (For example, the way they treated my daughter?) is part of a huge conspiracy and cover-up to lull us into lowering our defenses....

Wilson

I have visited the Mosque here in OKC and found them to not be radical. They were very gracious..however they also had no answers when i questioned them about the Islams who advance the cause of jihad on a global scale...

the Crusade was/is history...we have our forfathers of Christendom to apologize for this horrendous period. However we have not in the past centuries been Christians flying such a banner.

The Islams/Muslims are angry that their hold on global territories was
snatched from them with the end of WWI I am referring here to the end of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE...and they are still trying to dominate globally

and they eventually will wear us down ..either quietly. with empty facade of
love for all mankind..or aggressively with terror tactics

There was a revealing TV documentary..perhaps you saw it Called "THIRTEEN"

where all of these girls aged 13 were interviewed all over the world. It was remarkable their similarities..however this one petite teen from the West Bank an Arab..a Palestine talked about how she enjoyed movies..school, clothes and even make-up
then in the next breath..and with out taking a breath.. coldly stated

"I would give up every thing I have and hope for just to be used as a suicide bomber"

What have you to say in response to this lovely little teenager?
and how can you or i deal with this mindset??

I confess there are no ready answers..and that I certainly have not the
answer today that my grandbabies will be able to live with in their adulthood

Here are a few photos of the afternoon i spent in the Mosque

thanks for the dialogue..this is our only hope..to talk and to try and understand
and perhaps comprehend the mindset and heart of the Muslim

Judy

[Judy Hamilton]

BTW Wilson

Their rendition of God..Allah is not a god
of mercy and grace...but one of strict adherance to laws
and a god of severe judgement and vengance

I do not believe you would recogize the Lord and Master of your life
in the person they call Allah

Judy

[Hans Deventer]

BTW Wilson

Their rendition of God..Allah is not a god
of mercy and grace...but one of strict adherance to laws
and a god of severe judgement and vengance

I do not believe you would recogize the Lord and Master of your life
in the person they call Allah

I agree. However, I sometimes wonder if we really understand we have indeed a God of mercy and grace.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Their rendition of God..Allah is not a god
of mercy and grace...but one of strict adherance to laws
and a god of severe judgement and vengance

I do not believe you would recogize the Lord and Master of your life
in the person they call Allah


I hardly recognized my American Protestant Christian Grandfather's God as the Lord and Master of my life! (My grandfather thought it wrong for preachers to use humor in a sermon. I suspect that Edward's, "Sinners in the Hands of Angy God," would have been his ideal sermon.)

I have never said that there aren't major problems with Muslim beliefs and understandings. I believe that we too often take the examples of their wost case extremists and treat them like normative examples. Of course there exists Muslims who want to be suicide bombers. There are also "Christians" who want to blow up abortion clinics... We shouldn't judge either group by those individuals. That isn't fair. When we encounter Muslims in our daily lives our response should not be fear, suspicion, and hatred but pity and love (our respone to all who don't know Jesus).

BTW, besides her regular teaching, Robin (my wife) does private tutoring for elementary-aged kids. For a about a year, she tutored a Muslim boy. His mom knew Robin was a Christian Pastor's wife and was OK with that. When she dropped off and picked up she would come in for a few minutes and those meetings were always very cordial and gracious.

Wilson

[Bruce Carriker]

BTW Wilson

Their rendition of God..Allah is not a god
of mercy and grace...but one of strict adherance to laws
and a god of severe judgement and vengance

I do not believe you would recogize the Lord and Master of your life
in the person they call Allah

Judy

But how many Muslims would recognize our God of mercy and grace in American Christians? Keep in mind, that for them, 'American Christians' doesn't mean you. When they think American Christians, they think of the people they see on television...people like Pat Robertson. In the public arena today, there is little true dialogue. Mostly, there are only the fringes, yelling and cursing each other.

I am not a universalist. I do not believe that there can be any soteriological accomodations made for Muslims, any more than I believe that about the Jews, or the Buddhists, or the Hindus. But I also know that those people will always be here, and we must learn how to live peaceably with one another.

As Christians, we must take the lead in that initiative, even if it means surrendering some of our security; even if it means lowering our standard of living so the rest of the world can increase theirs; even if it means persecution. I believe those are sacrifices that Western Christians in general, and American Christians specifically, are unwilling to make.

And until we are, we must accept that the rest of the world is going to view us very differently than we view ourselves.

[Ian Gentles]

and i am certainly anemic in the amount of love i have for
these peoples...i am serious..i repent and ask the Lord to help me
understand them and love them

It melts..Jesus love melts..does it not????


Islam's "Religion of Peace" street demonstration

Below I have enclosed pictures of Moslems
who marched throughout the streets of London
during their recent Religion of Peace Demonstration.

These pictures have never been shown
in any of our American
newspapers or television news programs
now

Why would anyone think that we are at war ???

Sadly these are true photos, and yes were carried my a minority, but majority didnt complain! If i was in a demo and such sentiments were being voiced, i would have to leave it.

[William Hunter]

Ian, you are absolutely right. I have never heard any Muslim condemn 9-11, or any other Islamic terrorist act. I wonder why that is. They say it is a peaceful religion, but that is just not so. the sunnis and shites, the 2 major groups in Islam, both teach peace and brotherhood---as long as you believe in their teaching on the Koran. If you do no you are an from satan himself and are to be killed in order to bring praise to their god. No where to I hear any muslim, in our country or from any other, renouncing such attempts at genocide, terrorism, etc. In its most basic form, Islam is a religion of violence and death, and God told us in Deut. to choose life. Islam is just another deception born in the pit of hell to deceive people and draw them away from the only Giver of peace, Jesus Christ. I pray for the entrance of the Gospel into the muslim culture on a regular basis for they are people for whom Jesus died, but that does not require me to put on blinders and try to make a violent religion into something that it is not. Islam was born in violence and is advanced by violence. There may very small pockets where that is not so, but those are few and far between. Precious people yes, but dooped by Satan and we need to do whatever we can to rescue them from the dominion of darkness and bring them to the kingdom of Light.




Sadly these are true photos, and yes were carried my a minority, but majority didnt complain! If i was in a demo and such sentiments were being voiced, i would have to leave it.

[Barbara Moulton]

Ian, you are absolutely right. I have never heard any Muslim condemn 9-11, or any other Islamic terrorist act.

Try going to Google and search for "Muslims condemn".

For example

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335

[William Hunter]

Barbara, you might find some rare instance, but the fact is that it has NOT been done in the public arena. No one has spoken up so that it made news coverage, etc. Even if you find a rare instance, it does not change the violent nature of this pagan religion.




Try going to Google and search for "Muslims condemn".

For example

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335

[Wilson L. Deaton]

you might find some rare instance, but the fact is that it has NOT been done in the public arena. No one has spoken up so that it made news coverage, etc. Even if you find a rare instance, it does not change the violent nature of this pagan religion.

This is what I keep hearing:

Muslims are evil and violent.

Well these particular Muslims were nice, loving, etc.

Those Muslims don't count. They are either too rare or they are faking it as part of the big conspiracy to take over the world.

That kind of logic indicates that minds are already made up. Further discussion on the topic is therefore useless.

Wilson

[Bruce Carriker]

Forget it, Barbara. You're wasting your time. To find things, you have to look. And some folks are simply not interested in looking for anything that might contradict their predetermined world view. Others are unwilling to consider the evidence, even when folks like you do the legwork for them.

You are correct. There was much Muslim condemnation of the acts of September 11, 2001. The problem is that if we accept that fact, it makes it impossible to paint the entire Muslim world with the terrorist brush.

To his credit, even President Bush recognizes this:

I urge - I know I don't need to tell you all this -but our nation must be mindful that there are thousands of Arab-Americans who live in New York City
who love their flag just as much as the three of us do.

And we must be mindful that as we seek to win the war
that we treat Arab-Americans and Muslims with the respect they deserve.
I know that is your attitudes as well. Certainly the attitude of this government,
that we should not hold one who is a Muslim responsible for an act of terror.

We will hold those who are responsible for the terrorist acts accountable and those who harbor them."

[Gerald Spear]

What I keep hearing is;

There is also a conspiracy against the devil. There are those who have their mind made up. That he is evil.

If christians would just get to know the devil better, visit his domain, listen to his side of the story, there are alot of good things that he has promised, he even promised Jesus a bill of goods.

Christians need to co-exist (do not condemn) with the devil and his angels if we ever want to convert the devil. You don't think he really wants to rule the world do you?
No, That is just what a bunch of radicals who read the Bible wants to say.
The devil can even quote the Bible , so that surely gives him creditability.

The honey that the devil spoons into the mouth of his victim, numbs the nerves so there is not response to his death hold.

Pray for your muslim friend but do not let him get between you and the exit.

[Bruce Carriker]

Help me understand, Gerald.

Anyone who thinks that all Muslims are not to blame for the September 11 attacks is in leaque with Satan? That's an interesting proposition, but I'm curious as to the thought process that led you to this conclusion.

[Barbara Moulton]

Barbara, you might find some rare instance, but the fact is that it has NOT been done in the public arena. No one has spoken up so that it made news coverage, etc. Even if you find a rare instance, it does not change the violent nature of this pagan religion.

Hmmm...I wonder what I was listening to then a few months ago? At the time, I believed it was my radio covering a Canadian Muslim news release, condemning terrorism. I know it was noise coming out of that little speaker in my car on the way home one day. But if you say that nobody has spoken up in a way that it has made news coverage, I must have imagined the whole thing. Thanks for pointing this out.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Ian Gentles]

One factor is being missed again, Young Muslim women died in 7/7, these folks dont care who they kill, but muslim communities also live in fear of them!

[Bruce Carriker]

Why would Muslims live in fear of other Muslims if they are all evil terrorists?

[Gerald Spear]

Does the mafia trust each other?????

[BobHunt]

They may not all be extremeists but thats the only ones we see and hear!

[Bruce Carriker]

I think you're right, Bob. The media, while probably biased to the left more than the right, is really biased towards the bottom line...regardless of political ideology. Evil Muslim terrorists makes for good ratings on the evening news and sells newspapers. So that's what we see.

And those of us, on both sides of issues, who say we don't believe what the media tells us are either liars or fools. Of course we believe what the media tells us...as long as it reinforces the opinions we already hold.

[Ken OKelley]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum but was compelled to chime in on this discussion.

In regard to Muslims....whether they are peace loving or not there is no fellowship between a Christian and a Muslim. The two beliefs are totally in opposition to one another.

I am NOT of the belief, however, that we should demean them, kill them, or bring any harm to them except being spiritually led in self defense.

The only way to help in any conversion process is to LOVE. Love never fails.

But it is disparaging to me when so called Christians will call Muslims their brethren in a spiritual sense. There is NO unity between a Muslim and a Christian. This is a fundamental truth of Christianity. Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. Why? Because HE DIED. HE paid the penalty. Neither Muhammed nor anyone else satisfied the righteous requirements of God and paid the penalty. The Muslim way to heaven is through works and their laws. The Christian way is by Grace through Faith in The Christ of God.

I'd like to quote a statement from the following Islamic website:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/today.htm

"It is Islam that has taught human beings that the Lord their God is One and Only. That He has no partners, no wife, and no son, and that there can be no compromise on the unity of God.

It is Islam that has taught human beings that they are all equal and that no Arab is superior to non-Arab, nor a non-Arab is superior to an Arab and that the best of all of us is the one who is most righteous."

So note that they state two things:

1. Their Allah "has no son."
2. The best of all of us is the one who is most righteous.

No son means NO JESUS. Plain and simple.

Of course Christianity promotes righteousness as well and righteousness is good but with Islam it is the way to Heaven and with Christianity is is a product of belief.

So there is NO fellowship between a Muslim and a Christian.

Note what Paul says in Galatians 4:

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:


“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

The Muslims are of the slave woman.......as they try to work their way into heaven.

The one who believes in the work that Christ accomplished is the one who is born of the promise. The one who belongs to Sarah.

And there is NO fellowship between the two.

Hagar was driven away.

But don't stop loving the Muslim in hopes that they too would leave their own efforts and turn to the efforts of Jesus the Christ.

blessings,
Ken OKelley


=== This is an automatically generated message ===

This is my first post. My Welcome thread is here. Please post all my welcome messages there.

=== This is an automatically generated message ===

[Bruce Carriker]

On the one hand, I agree with you, Ken. I cringe when I recall the Camp David summits and comments like, "We all worship the same God." No, we don't.

Christians worship one God; the Jews and the Muslims worship different versions of that God. All similarities between Christianity and the other two end at Jesus. Neither Judaism nor Islam recognize Jesus. So, if you want to say that there can be no spiritual fellowship between Christians and Jews, or Christians and Muslims, I'm good with that.

But, with regards to some of the Biblical texts referenced:

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

Some care must be taken here. Paul is not quoting God - he is quoting Sarah, who was jealous of Hagar and Ishmael and angry with them, because Ishmael made fun of Isaac. And let's not overlook the fact that in Paul's analogy, Hagar DOES NOT represent Islam. She represents the OT covenant at Sinai. Paul's dichotomy couldn not have included Islam, for the simple reason that Islam did not yet exist. Paul was differentiating between Christians and Jews.

Also, I don't think we can forget that God also made a promise to Hagar (Genesis 21): "God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation." I have not studied this in great detail. I'd be interested to see what Dr. Bratcher's website says on the issue.

But clearly God loved Hagar and Ishmal, too. So I'm curious what you mean by "fellowship"? How do we love someone without having "fellowship" with them? If by "fellowship" you mean we don't rationalize them into heaven despite their denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ, I'm okay with that. But if that's your definition of fellowship, then what do we make of organizations like the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews?

[Ken OKelley]

"And let's not overlook the fact that in Paul's analogy, Hagar DOES NOT represent Islam. She represents the OT covenant at Sinai. Paul's dichotomy couldn not have included Islam, for the simple reason that Islam did not yet exist. Paul was differentiating between Christians and Jews."

------

Well I suppose we could debate this back and forth and perhaps we would never agree but for starters I would differ with you in that I don't think it really mattered that Islam did not yet exist. Paul wrote, "21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman."

The spiritual message of what Paul was saying was that nobody gains entry to God through Law or his own works whether it is attempted through old testament law or through Quran law or any other law. Islam is a works based religion like most other religions and you and I agree that only through believing in the finished work of Jesus is one justified.

In regard to Hagar I do understand that God showed her great mercy and also blessed Ishmael. I personally believe this is because the boy was, first, birthed of Abraham and, secondly, because of some pretty hefty theological reasons relative to end times and the continual build of up of what we're seeing today between the Jews and the Muslims.

But, again, I do not deny the fact that God reached out to Hagar and did indeed bless her and her son.

To answer you in regard to fellowship....what I mean is this.

Just as God reached out to Hagar I would also reach out to any Muslim. I don't look at Muslims and say within my heart, "I hate you."

They are human beings and God so loved them that He gave His only begotten to save them. And that is my heart towards them as well. I long for them to turn to Christ.

Of course I could be friends with a Muslim. I wish I had a Muslim friend. Yet I would not and could not call him my "brother." It would probably be pretty funny because as I longed for him to turn to Jesus......he or she would most likely be longing for me to turn to Allah through Muhammed.

A good example to further explain may be my mother. I love my mother. I'd do anything for my mother. Yet my mother is not a believer. So though I love her and I try to honor her as the Lord wants me to......we do not experience any of that fellowship that the Holy Spirit brings between two believers. There is something there that separates us. That's sad to say and may be sadder to hear but it is true.

So I would define "fellowship" as being that SPIRITUAL connection that you have with another believer.

The gist of my initial letter was that it is VERY dangerous and people do a GRAVE DISSERVICE to any Muslim when they tell them that they are "ok" as they are and that we're all "brethren" as we are. They are NOT ok and we are not brethren. The Muslim needs the atonement of Christ to cover their sins just like you and I do.

If they stand before God apart from Christ then they will pay for their own sins. That's why I hate to see anyone saying that we're all brothers on differing paths to the same place. No. Jesus the Christ is the only path...because HE paid the penalty. Not me...not you....not Muhammed nor Buddha. He suffered and He paid for all of us who would place faith in his atonement. If anyone does not want the pardon then they will pay for their own sins eternally and that's the message that should be stated.

To tell everyone that they're "ok" and that we're all "brothers" is not God's definition of loving someone.

many blessings,
Ken

[William Hunter]

Exactly right!!! To find any Muslim condemnation of Islamic terrorists, you have to go hunting for it. It is not in the news, in the papers, on the national news media. Why? You cannot change the human historical fact of this violent religion. Its two main sects believe the koran gives them the right, no demands, that they perform genocide on each other; and they would bring the world into slavery if they could.

I know there are precious people in this religion, as there are in all pagan religions; but that does not change the fact of the historical violence of this religion, its fear and hatred of anyone who does interpret the koran their way, etc. Yes, we Christians must develop a strategy based on compassion and reach out to those caught up in this religious deception.




Forget it, Barbara. You're wasting your time. To find things, you have to look. And some folks are simply not interested in looking for anything that might contradict their predetermined world view. Others are unwilling to consider the evidence, even when folks like you do the legwork for them.

You are correct. There was much Muslim condemnation of the acts of September 11, 2001. The problem is that if we accept that fact, it makes it impossible to paint the entire Muslim world with the terrorist brush.

To his credit, even President Bush recognizes this:

I urge - I know I don't need to tell you all this -but our nation must be mindful that there are thousands of Arab-Americans who live in New York City
who love their flag just as much as the three of us do.

And we must be mindful that as we seek to win the war
that we treat Arab-Americans and Muslims with the respect they deserve.
I know that is your attitudes as well. Certainly the attitude of this government,
that we should not hold one who is a Muslim responsible for an act of terror.

We will hold those who are responsible for the terrorist acts accountable and those who harbor them."

[Hans Deventer]

On the one hand, I agree with you, Ken. I cringe when I recall the Camp David summits and comments like, "We all worship the same God." No, we don't.

Christians worship one God; the Jews and the Muslims worship different versions of that God. All similarities between Christianity and the other two end at Jesus. Neither Judaism nor Islam recognize Jesus. So, if you want to say that there can be no spiritual fellowship between Christians and Jews, or Christians and Muslims, I'm good with that.

I agree regarding Muslims. Allah is not YHWH, for the obvious reason that Allah has no mercy. Islam is a man made religion, with many elements stolen from the Old and the New Testament, but twisted.

However, I too worship YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As Jesus did. I'd have no problem at all worshipping in a synagoge and saying we worship the same God. I honestly believe we do.

As Christians, we believe YHWH's ultimate revelation is in Jesus of Nazareth. So we believe more, but certainly not less. When Jesus called "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" he called out to the same God Jews and Christians worship.

[Ken OKelley]

Hans wrote:
However, I too worship YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As Jesus did. I'd have no problem at all worshipping in a synagoge and saying we worship the same God. I honestly believe we do.

As Christians, we believe YHWH's ultimate revelation is in Jesus of Nazareth. So we believe more, but certainly not less. When Jesus called "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" he called out to the same God Jews and Christians worship.

Hans,

I don't really know what you're saying when you say you'd have no trouble worshipping in a Jewish synagogue.

Do you think that the Jews are "ok" spiritually because they only worship the same God as us yet only in a manner that's a little less than we do?

Do you think it matters whether or not they believe in Jesus the Christ?

And in regard to stating that the Jews and Christians are worshipping the same God although only under differing circumstances......the following passage came to mind.

John 8

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

So let's say that you have a Jewish friend who flatly rejects Jesus. And he says to you, "well it doesn't matter anyhow because we all worship the same God of Abraham....the One True God."

Then could it be legitimate to say to him, "if the God of Abraham the One True God were your Father then you would believe in Jesus as the Christ but since you do not believe in Jesus as the Christ then we do not worship the same God....you worship a false God and not the God of Abraham."

Is that politically incorrect or what??????

Or would you say something like this:

"Yes, I agree....it doesn't matter which way you believe so long as you believe in the God of Abraham....the One True God."

Thanks in advance for any replies.

I think that this is a very worthwhile discussion.

many blessings,
Ken

[Hans Deventer]

Hans,

I don't really know what you're saying when you say you'd have no trouble worshipping in a Jewish synagogue.

I'd have no trouble because however mistaken they may be in their views, the God they worship is still the same God I worship. Gracious, we share 2/3 of the Bible! Need I say anything more?


Do you think that the Jews are "ok" spiritually because they only worship the same God as us yet only in a manner that's a little less than we do?


No, and I certainly did not write that.


Do you think it matters whether or not they believe in Jesus the Christ?


No, and I certainly did not write that.


And in regard to stating that the Jews and Christians are worshipping the same God although only under differing circumstances......the following passage came to mind.

John 8

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”


So whom is Jesus adressing here? The entire Jewish people, including his disciples? No, the text is clear "I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me". He is addressing those that seek to kill Him.


So let's say that you have a Jewish friend who flatly rejects Jesus. And he says to you, "well it doesn't matter anyhow because we all worship the same God of Abraham....the One True God."

I would acknowledge we worship the same God. I would not agree with him that Jesus does not matter. But I would not push it too much because we Christians have 1900 years of killing Jews in our history. Perhaps, we could try love for the next 1900 years? Actually show that God so loved the world that He send His only Son?


Then could it be legitimate to say to him, "if the God of Abraham the One True God were your Father then you would believe in Jesus as the Christ but since you do not believe in Jesus as the Christ then we do not worship the same God....you worship a false God and not the God of Abraham."

Is that politically incorrect or what??????

I cringe at those words. Seems Paul had a different approach:

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Would we not need another approach to make them envious?



Or would you say something like this:

"Yes, I agree....it doesn't matter which way you believe so long as you believe in the God of Abraham....the One True God."

No. It most certainly matters. But if Paul speaks about a mystery, shouldn't we too?

To quote Romans 11 again:

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Paul does not have all the answers, let alone that I have them. How can I ever deny God's ultimate revelation in Jesus the Messiah? How not value His uniqueness? The deepest expression of God's love, manifested in Him? No way! But neither can I deny the fact that, however deeply I regret their rejection of my Saviour, they do worship YHWH. So when I would stand in a synagoge and hear prayer of the Sh'ma, "Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohaynu, Adonai Echad", can I say anything but Amen?

Actually, these are the very first words I prayed when I came into hospital room where my father lay, the night he died. I was there alone with his body. And I felt very much connected with the people of God, who suffered so much, and yet maintained this confession.


So I will not back off from my Lord Jesus. I will not deny Him. But if there is a moment I can tell about Him to a Jewish person, it has to be with tears in my eyes and deep apologies for all we Christians have done.

Does this help?

[William Hunter]

HMMMM....That certianly has not happened on the national news media here---and it does not seem to make the evening world news broadcasts here either. It seems that if there are such, they are very few and far between. Why, just look at the infighting in Iraq between the factions as they each try for power and control instead of working together for the good of their country and its people. More than a thousand Iraqis are killed each week by other Iraqis, because they believe the koran says to perform genocide on the other group. Is there any where in the world where the two major factions of Islam work together in peace and unity? I think not. The govt. of Islamic nations is totally run by either one sect or the other and those n minority live in fear.



Hmmm...I wonder what I was listening to then a few months ago? At the time, I believed it was my radio covering a Canadian Muslim news release, condemning terrorism. I know it was noise coming out of that little speaker in my car on the way home one day. But if you say that nobody has spoken up in a way that it has made news coverage, I must have imagined the whole thing. Thanks for pointing this out.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Barbara Moulton]

HMMMM....That certianly has not happened on the national news media here---and it does not seem to make the evening world news broadcasts here either. It seems that if there are such, they are very few and far between.

Correct me if I am wrong William, but haven't you said in the past that the media can't always be trusted? I might be confusing you with someone else but it seems there are many complaints on this board concerning the media and how it presents a biased view concerning the actions of the present US administration.

It seems a little contradictory to complain on the one hand that the media is not fair to the administration yet placidly accept that they have been fair in their reporting concerning the statements of Muslim groups.

I am not saying that 99% of Muslims have condemend terrorism. My point was simply to challenge your assertions that NO Muslim groups have.

Some have, and the fact that FOX news doesn't report it doesn't change that.

[Bruce Carriker]

However, I too worship YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As Jesus did. I'd have no problem at all worshipping in a synagoge and saying we worship the same God. I honestly believe we do.

As Christians, we believe YHWH's ultimate revelation is in Jesus of Nazareth. So we believe more, but certainly not less. When Jesus called "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" he called out to the same God Jews and Christians worship.

So, Hans...riddle me this. Is Jesus Christ God? Or is he only the revelation of God in human form, but still something less than fully God?

If Jesus Christ is God, we clearly do not worship the same God. The Christian God is a triune God. The God of the Jews is not, plain and simple. But if Jesus is not God, but only a revelation of God in human form, that's no longer orthodox Christianity.

The instant I declare my belief that Jesus Christ is "God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God", then my God and the God of the Jews becomes different.


Back to Ken's comment: If you want to somehow see the Galatians passage as Paul engaging in prophecy (a gift I don't believe he ever claimed), how do you account for the fact that he VERY SPECIFICALLY says that Hagar represents the OT covenant at Sinai? Correct me if I'm wrong, but God never made a covenant with Hagar and Ishmael at Sinai...at least no one of which I'm aware.

We're in agreement that Paul is differentiating between those under the law and those under grace. That would be the Jews and the Christians, would it not?

If you want to argue that Judaism was once established by God, and therefore has something in common with Christianity, I can't deny that. That's true. But, the New Testament makes it pretty clear that the old has been superceded. So at this point, I guess my comparison matrix looks something like this:

Established by God: Judaism - yes; Christianity - yes; Islam - no

Recognize the Divinity of Jesus Christ: Judaism - no; Christianity - yes; Islam - no

Salvation by grace: Judaism - no; Christianity - yes; Islam - no

Salvation by the law: Judaism - yes; Christianity - no; Islam - yes.

By my count, at least on these key points, Judaism has as much in common with Islam as it has in common with Christianity.

Historically, Christianity has vilified both Judaism and Islam. While I think that is the wrong approach to take, at least the church was consistent in how it treated other faiths that rejected Jesus Christ. I believe that much of the softening of Christianity's stance towards Judaism in the latter half of the 20th century is rooted in classic Western guilt, in the aftermath of the Holocaust.

Theologically, I think it is very difficult to attempt to rationalize Jews into heaven, while condeming Muslims to eternal damnation, when both reject Jesus Christ. The only way that can work is if one is a radical dispensationalist, who believes that the Jews are still functioning under a different dispensation than the rest of the world, and can still gain salvation through the OT covenant.

[Hans Deventer]

So, Hans...riddle me this. Is Jesus Christ God? Or is he only the revelation of God in human form, but still something less than fully God?

If Jesus Christ is God, we clearly do not worship the same God. The Christian God is a triune God. The God of the Jews is not, plain and simple. But if Jesus is not God, but only a revelation of God in human form, that's no longer orthodox Christianity.

Bruce, it is simple. Ask Jesus who He worshipped, prayed to, lived for and died for. Is that the same God as the Jews worship or is it not? He even was a Jew Himself!

Established by God: Judaism - yes; Christianity - yes; Islam - no

Recognize the Divinity of Jesus Christ: Judaism - no; Christianity - yes; Islam - no

Salvation by grace: Judaism - no; Christianity - yes; Islam - no

Salvation by the law: Judaism - yes; Christianity - no; Islam - yes.

By my count, at least on these key points, Judaism has as much in common with Islam as it has in common with Christianity.

My matrix would have been a little different. The Old Testament does not teach salvation by works. Some have perverted the OT teaching in that way, but it is not what God taught us. The true believers in the Old Testament always knew that salvation is by grace and by nothing else. Don't forget that Jesus and Paul addressed people that distorted the Old Testament, and accused them of doing so, based on texts from that very same Old Testament! Like the Reformation did pretty much the same, that's why we are protestants. Still, you cannot say that Roman Catholics worship a different God.


Theologically, I think it is very difficult to attempt to rationalize Jews into heaven, while condeming Muslims to eternal damnation, when both reject Jesus Christ. The only way that can work is if one is a radical dispensationalist, who believes that the Jews are still functioning under a different dispensation than the rest of the world, and can still gain salvation through the OT covenant.

I am NOT and have not been saying who is or who is not making it to heaven!
Man, I should have written lots of disclaimers!

The question was, do Jews worship the same God as we do? Well, did Abraham? Did Moses? Did David? Daniel? Isaiah? If the answer to those latter ones is no, then yes, the answer to the first question must be no as well.

My problem with all of this is that we are symplifying issues that the Bible is not so clear on. That even Paul didn't completely understood. And my problem is as well that we way too easily talk about who is and who is not going to make it to heaven. Personally, I rather leave that to the Judge of heaven and earth, somehow I get the impression He won't need me in the process.

[Ken OKelley]

Interesting stuff you guys have written. For a brief period I must bow out and hope to get to reply more later. I have a son having a major birthday party today but wanted to thank you guys for what you wrote.

I'll catch back up later.

blessings,
Ken

[Bruce Carriker]

Happy Birthday to your son!

[William Hunter]

Barbara, you completely missed the point I was making. I am not saying anything one way of the other as a statement about the various media. What I am saying is that if there is anything but rare outcries of Muslims against Islamic terrorism, it would have been pciked up by the media. Now, what the media does to slant or distort the story is a whole different issue. The issue here is that there is NO widespread outcry from Muslims against this terrible genocide sanctioned by the koran. I wonder why you are so bent on defending a pagan religion that is known largely for its violence. Yes, like anyone one of us, the people who practice this pagan religion are far from God and need His saving grace; and to that end we must work; but the religion itself, its main book, encouages violence and genocide. No thinking person can deny that---just look at the killings of more than 1000 Iraqis every week by other Iraqis who do not not part of their sect within this violent religion. Look at the attempts of genocide between these two sects that goes back to the 5th Century AD. It is in world history records.

There just is no large outcry by Muslims against Muslim/Islamic terrorism and genocide. It has never been there and likely will not be for the religion and its main book promote such violence between the sects and anyone else who does not agree with them. There is no way you can defend that fact of history.



Correct me if I am wrong William, but haven't you said in the past that the media can't always be trusted? I might be confusing you with someone else but it seems there are many complaints on this board concerning the media and how it presents a biased view concerning the actions of the present US administration.

It seems a little contradictory to complain on the one hand that the media is not fair to the administration yet placidly accept that they have been fair in their reporting concerning the statements of Muslim groups.

I am not saying that 99% of Muslims have condemend terrorism. My point was simply to challenge your assertions that NO Muslim groups have.

Some have, and the fact that FOX news doesn't report it doesn't change that.

[Hans Deventer]

If you want to argue that Judaism was once established by God, and therefore has something in common with Christianity, I can't deny that. That's true. But, the New Testament makes it pretty clear that the old has been superceded.

No, it does not. Jesus says he came to fulfill the Law, and NOT abolish it. Surely you agree with me that the word of God Himself has the most value in this issue?

And I was thinking about another matrix:

Established by God: Judaism - yes; Christianity - yes; Islam - no
Scripture ispired by God: Judaism - yes; Christianity - yes; Islam - no
Recognize the Divinity of Jesus Christ: Judaism - no; Christianity - yes; Islam - no

By my count, at least on these key points, Judaism has much more in common with Christianity than with Islam. I'd say at least 2/3 of the Scriptures compared to 0%

[Barbara Moulton]

With all due respect William, that's not what you said. You initially stated, "No one has spoken up so that it made news coverage, etc. " I was simply pointing out that there had been news coverage.

Having said that, I would say that we are essentially in agreement. There does not seem to have been a large outcry from the Muslim community. I only wanted to clarify that there has been some....albeit not what you would hope it would be.

Blessings,
Barbara

[William Hunter]

You said you heard that on a Canadian radio station. I have no reason to doubt you on that; but here in the USA there absolutely has not been any national media coverage of any Muslim outcry against Islamic terrorism or of that behavior that allows for genocide of other muslims. You seemingly heard one report. That is very, very far from national coverage. The outcry just is not there exceopt in rare cases. Then you have to go looking for it.




With all due respect William, that's not what you said. You initially stated, "No one has spoken up so that it made news coverage, etc. " I was simply pointing out that there had been news coverage.

Having said that, I would say that we are essentially in agreement. There does not seem to have been a large outcry from the Muslim community. I only wanted to clarify that there has been some....albeit not what you would hope it would be.

Blessings,
Barbara