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Jeremy D. Scott
9th May 2006, 12:29 PM (12:29)
Wow...what timing. I finally finished The Da Vinci Code and a couple of days later I read an article of an interview about the book with my currently most-read author, Brian McLaren.

I'll comment after the article.

The following is the text of the article. It was provided by Sojourners (http://www.sojo.net).



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Brian McLaren on The Da Vinci Code
An interview by Lisa Ann Cockrel

With The Da Vinci Code poised to go from bestseller list to the big screen on May 19, pastor and writer (and Sojourners board member) Brian McLaren talks about why he thinks there's truth in the controversial book's fiction.

What do you think the popularity of The Da Vinci Code reveals about pop culture attitudes toward Christianity and the church?

Brian McLaren: I think a lot of people have read the book, not just as a popular page-turner but also as an experience in shared frustration with status-quo, male-dominated, power-oriented, cover-up-prone organized Christian religion. We need to ask ourselves why the vision of Jesus hinted at in Dan Brown's book is more interesting, attractive, and intriguing to these people than the standard vision of Jesus they hear about in church. Why would so many people be disappointed to find that Brown's version of Jesus has been largely discredited as fanciful and inaccurate, leaving only the church's conventional version? Is it possible that, even though Brown's fictional version misleads in many ways, it at least serves to open up the possibility that the church's conventional version of Jesus may not do him justice?

So you think The Da Vinci Code taps into dissatisfaction with Jesus as we know him?

McLaren: For all the flaws of Brown's book, I think what he's doing is suggesting that the dominant religious institutions have created their own caricature of Jesus. And I think people have a sense that that's true. It's my honest feeling that anyone trying to share their faith in America today has to realize that the Religious Right has polluted the air. The name "Jesus" and the word "Christianity" are associated with something judgmental, hostile, hypocritical, angry, negative, defensive, anti-homosexual, etc. Many of our churches, even though they feel they represent the truth, actually are upholding something that's distorted and false.

I also think that the whole issue of male domination is huge and that Brown's suggestion that the real Jesus was not as misogynist or anti-woman as the Christian religion often has been is very attractive. Brown's book is about exposing hypocrisy and cover-up in organized religion, and it is exposing organized religion's grasping for power. Again, there's something in that that people resonate with in the age of pedophilia scandals, televangelists, and religious political alliances. As a follower of Jesus I resonate with their concerns as well.

Do you think the book contains any significantly detrimental distortions of the Christian faith?

McLaren: The book is fiction and it's filled with a lot of fiction about a lot of things that a lot of people have already debunked. But frankly, I don't think it has more harmful ideas in it than the Left Behind novels. And in a certain way, what the Left Behind novels do, the way they twist scripture toward a certain theological and political end, I think Brown is twisting scripture, just to other political ends. But at the end of the day, the difference is I don't think Brown really cares that much about theology. He just wanted to write a page-turner and he was very successful at that.

Many Christians are also reading this book and it's rocking their preconceived notions - or lack of preconceived notions - about Christ's life and the early years of the church. So many people don't know how we got the canon, for example. Should this book be a clarion call to the church to say, "Hey, we need to have a body of believers who are much more literate in church history." Is that something the church needs to be thinking about more strategically?

McLaren: Yes! You're exactly right. One of the problems is that the average Christian in the average church who listens to the average Christian broadcasting has such an oversimplified understanding of both the Bible and of church history - it would be deeply disturbing for them to really learn about church history. I think the disturbing would do them good. But a lot of times education is disturbing for people. And so if The Da Vinci Code causes people to ask questions and Christians have to dig deeper, that's a great thing, a great opportunity for growth. And it does show a weakness in the church giving either no understanding of church history or a very stilted, one-sided, sugarcoated version.

On the other hand, it's important for me to say I don't think anyone can learn good church history from Brown. There's been a lot of debunking of what he calls facts. But again, the guy's writing fiction so nobody should be surprised about that. The sad thing is there's an awful lot of us who claim to be telling objective truth and we actually have our own propaganda and our own versions of history as well.

Let me mention one other thing about Brown's book that I think is appealing to people. The church goes through a pendulum swing at times from overemphasizing the deity of Christ to overemphasizing the humanity of Christ. So a book like Brown's that overemphasizes the humanity of Christ can be a mirror to us saying that we might be underemphasizing the humanity of Christ.

In light of The Da Vinci Code movie that is soon to be released, how do you hope churches will engage this story?

McLaren: I would like to see churches teach their people how to have intelligent dialogue that doesn't degenerate into argument. We have to teach people that the Holy Spirit works in the middle of conversation. We see it time and time again - Jesus enters into dialogue with people; Paul and Peter and the apostles enter into dialogue with people. We tend to think that the Holy Spirit can only work in the middle of a monologue where we are doing the speaking.

So if our churches can encourage people to, if you see someone reading the book or you know someone who's gone to the movie, say, "What do you think about Jesus and what do you think about this or that," and to ask questions instead of getting into arguments, that would be wonderful. The more we can keep conversations open and going the more chances we give the Holy Spirit to work. But too often people want to get into an argument right away. And, you know, Jesus has handled 2,000 years of questions, skepticism, and attacks, and he's gonna come through just fine. So we don't have to be worried.

Ultimately, The Da Vinci Code is telling us important things about the image of Jesus that is being portrayed by the dominant Christian voices. [Readers] don't find that satisfactory, genuine, or authentic, so they're looking for something that seems more real and authentic.
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I don't know, but I think that McLaren just put the Left Behind series in the same sentence as The Da Vinci Code.

I hope that McLaren is correct about the book's affect on scripture. I hope that followers of Christ come to realize a greater need to understand scripture's formation - both in history and in the reading of scripture today. Scripture is inspired by God and the things of God, written, formed, selected, and canonized by a community called the Church. In that light, we can begin to better understand the use of scripture in the community as opposed to proof-texting and hand-slapping.

I read the book and I'm glad that I did. I hope that it stimulates conversation. I'm still not sure I'd recommend it for all followers of Christ.

There were a couple of "facts" stated that made me cringe because I don't believe they were presented well or factual at all (although I was not there, I don't believe that Constantine hand-selected the canon).

But, like I said, if our faith is of truth (which I tend to believe that it is), then these challenges to the Church, scripture, and tradition should only make us stronger in the end. We are then forced to become more authentic and sincere in what we say and do. And I'm all about that.

Jeff Scott
9th May 2006, 12:59 PM (12:59)
Thanks for this article Jeremy.

I agree whole-heartedly with your last statement, "...if our faith is of truth..., then these challenges to the Church, scripture, and tradition should only make us stronger in the end..."

I read the Left Behind series, greatly anticipating the release of each book. I became concerned about the portreyal of Jesus and God's judgement towards the end. It just didn't seem like the loving Jesus I was taught to expect. I liked McLaren's comparison..

I just placed this book on my wish-list on Amazon. I am awaiting it with baited breath. Has anyone read this author before?

"The Politics of Jesus : Rediscovering the True Revolutionary Nature of Jesus' Teachings and How They Have Been Corrupted"

by Obery M. Hendricks Jr.

Billy Cox
9th May 2006, 01:02 PM (13:02)
The more that I read and re-read Acts and the letters of Paul, the more I realize that 'The New Testament church' is a marketing fiction. Trying to make the everyday church like Acts 2-3 is about as futile as trying to make every church service like the final evening of a 1955 campmeeting.

The most important thing (in my opinion) that McLaren pointed out is that pop culture's take on church history is a mirror image of what we're presenting in the Church.

Thus, if pop culture is interested in all the ugly conspiracy theories surrounding the early church, then perhaps our version of the story is just a little too 'Candyland' for most grown-ups.

Thanks for posting the article.

-Billy Cox

Cindi Hammons
9th May 2006, 01:27 PM (13:27)
I think a lot of people have read the book, not just as a popular page-turner but also as an experience in shared frustration with status-quo, male-dominated, power-oriented, cover-up-prone organized Christian religion.

I agree. Possibly even a shared frustration with the male and clergy dominated church hierarchy. I don't believe our church is involved in any "cover-ups", but I do find it very male dominated and many times downright condescending towards females.


For all the flaws of Brown's book, I think what he's doing is suggesting that the dominant religious institutions have created their own caricature of Jesus. And I think people have a sense that that's true. It's my honest feeling that anyone trying to share their faith in America today has to realize that the Religious Right has polluted the air. The name "Jesus" and the word "Christianity" are associated with something judgmental, hostile, hypocritical, angry, negative, defensive, anti-homosexual, etc. Many of our churches, even though they feel they represent the truth, actually are upholding something that's distorted and false.

Here's an example...our church had the painting of Jesus hanging on the wall behind the choir loft. Very white...very European...very unrealistic. When our new pastor came (16 years ago), he wanted to remove the painting and replace it with a cross. Holy Cow! One would have thought we wanted to hang modern art as a desecration of the sanctuary! Anyways, we did remove the painting and have a cross at the front of our sanctuary. There are many, many people sitting in our churches that have heard so many things about Jesus that just are not true.

Even though I agreed with many things the "religious right" has tried to accomplish, I do believe the vehemence many involved have shown has created a backlash.


The book is fiction and it's filled with a lot of fiction about a lot of things that a lot of people have already debunked. But frankly, I don't think it has more harmful ideas in it than the Left Behind novels.

Ouch! I'm sure Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins will not like that quote! (I'm sure I'll get in trouble for this comment, but...) I enjoyed the Left Behind series as a fantasy of what may happen in the future. I'm not banking on it as fact. In fact, if we have our spiritual lives in order, we won't have to worry about the Left Behind Series, will we? :)

Many Christians are also reading this book and it's rocking their preconceived notions - or lack of preconceived notions - about Christ's life and the early years of the church. So many people don't know how we got the canon, for example. One of the problems is that the average Christian in the average church who listens to the average Christian broadcasting has such an oversimplified understanding of both the Bible and of church history - it would be deeply disturbing for them to really learn about church history. I think the disturbing would do them good.


Amen! Amen! Amen! As I have gotten older, I have been absolutely amazed at the lack of Biblical and church history knowlege that is sitting in our pews every Sunday. People don't have a clue and we aren't teaching them.


I would like to see churches teach their people how to have intelligent dialogue that doesn't degenerate into argument.

Yes! This is what I was advocating here on the NazNet just last week. Read the book so you know how to answer questions you might receive.

So if our churches can encourage people to, if you see someone reading the book or you know someone who's gone to the movie, say, "What do you think about Jesus and what do you think about this or that," and to ask questions instead of getting into arguments, that would be wonderful. The more we can keep conversations open and going the more chances we give the Holy Spirit to work.

Jeremy,

Thank you for posting this article.

Cindi H.

Bruce Carriker
9th May 2006, 01:39 PM (13:39)
Thanks, Jeremy. I've not read the book, nor do I plan to see the movie. That's not based on some theological position...just not the kind of stuff that I find interesting. I haven't read any of the Left Behind series either, and only saw the first movie, because my daughters wanted to go.

While I mostly agree with McLaren's comments, I think we must also keep him in context. He has a serious axe to grind with the church, and misses no opportunity to do so. So, its not like he's coming to the discussion without his own agenda, as well.

Most of us who have given any thought to the church and its relationship to the world in which we live have some agenda we're advancing, knowingly or not. So, I don't mean that as a perjorative comment about McLaren. It's just something we need to keep in mind as we read him.

Andrew Henck
9th May 2006, 05:05 PM (17:05)
While I mostly agree with McLaren's comments, I think we must also keep him in context. He has a serious axe to grind with the church, and misses no opportunity to do so. So, its not like he's coming to the discussion without his own agenda, as well.

Bruce...

Could it be that McLaren is trying to wake up the church and improve us? To fix something that is flawed or not effective, you need to figure out what is wrong and then go from there to make it better. I think this is McLaren's intent when he says stuff about the church like this.

His book, "The Church on the Other Side" is specifically like this. He states the current problems of the church in regards to misguided mission, lack of vision, etc. I think he's got some great ideas and has seriously looked at how we as a church are doing and not doing things we need to be doing.

Just some thoughts...

Barb Bouldrey
9th May 2006, 05:16 PM (17:16)
Thanks for posting this interview.

And, Billy, I agree with you. It is not possible for this generation to be exactly like the Acts 3 church. We can never meet from house to house daily in prayer and fellowship. The only way we can be like the New Testament church of Acts is to tarry until we receive power to be witnesses and pray for boldness in witnessing.

Barb

Jeremy D. Scott
9th May 2006, 05:57 PM (17:57)
The more that I read and re-read Acts and the letters of Paul, the more I realize that 'The New Testament church' is a marketing fiction. Trying to make the everyday church like Acts 2-3 is about as futile as trying to make every church service like the final evening of a 1955 campmeeting.

Billy -

I've read your post a couple of times now and I still don't know where this part is coming from.

Teaching church history, tradition, and how we've come to that tradition is quite different than trying to carbon-copy the New Testament Church. Even so, there is a lot to be learned about how we can exemplify Christ's Body today by looking at how the early church did it then, even within scripture. Just the same, there is a lot to be learned about how we can be the people of God by looking at how the nation of Israel formed and organized themselves.

Will we create laws that forbid the eating of shellfish? No. Will we sell all our possessions and give to all as each has need? Probably not for a long time, if ever. But a good look and study at the past helps us avoid mistakes already made.

Pelikan distinguishes between tradition and traditionalism:
Tradition - the living faith of the dead
Traditionalism - the dead faith of the living

Tradition has much to offer.

Bruce Carriker
9th May 2006, 06:48 PM (18:48)
Andrew...as I said, I mostly agree with what McLaren had to say. But we do have to keep him in context. He is not THE ultimate source of knowledge and truth. He writes about problems AS HE SEES THEM. That's not intended negatively. That's all any of us can do.

All I'm saying is that he has an established position, and that position is not favorable towards the church as we know it today. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong, or maybe he's some of both. But he's not unbiased, and we need to keep that in mind as we read him.

Phil Michaels
9th May 2006, 07:45 PM (19:45)
[McLaren] has a serious axe to grind with the church, and misses no opportunity to do so. So, its not like he's coming to the discussion without his own agenda, as well.....as I said, I mostly agree with what McLaren had to say. But we do have to keep him in context. He is not THE ultimate source of knowledge and truth. He writes about problems AS HE SEES THEM. That's not intended negatively. That's all any of us can do. All I'm saying is that he has an established position, and that position is not favorable towards the church as we know it today. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong, or maybe he's some of both. But he's not unbiased, and we need to keep that in mind as we read him.

Hi Bruce-

Would you care to elaborate with some details about what you believe McLaren's "axe to grind with the church" is, specifically? Or what his "established position" is? Thanks....

phil

Bruce Carriker
9th May 2006, 08:30 PM (20:30)
Let me start again by saying I AGREE with a lot of what McLaren says, not just about The DaVinci Code, but about stuff in general. However, if you have ever read The Church on the Other Side, A New Kind of Christian, or any of his articles or interviews in Christianity Today, you can't help but know that he thinks the church is pretty much at a "change or die" point in its history. I reject that idea out of hand. If the gates of hell aren't going to prevail against God's church, what makes McLaren think the church is in danger of either extinction or obsolesence?

The church somehow managed to survive 2000 years without McLaren. That is not to say that the church has not changed. Surely it has. And it will continue to change, with or without those crying out that the fox is at the henhouse door. There was reform BEFORE the Reformation. There has been reform SINCE the Reformation. Semper Reformada, I believe someone once said. Yes, we are changing. Some have decided that we're moving from modernity to post-modernity. Perhaps that's true. Maybe we are moving into Cartesian world where we can no longer know anything for certain, except perhaps the existence of our selves.

Has the church done some things wrong? Sure. Can the church do some things better? Sure. Are their changes the church needs to make? Sure. But I reject the wholesale change that many emergents, McLaren included, seem to think is necessary for the church to avoid certain death. If anything, it is consistency rather than adaptability that has been the strength of the church. And if we are truly moving into an age when we can be certain of nothing except change, it occurs to me that the place(s) that offer some consistency will the places that are sought out for sanctuary.

After a quarter century, it is finally okay to voice skepticism about the "seeker sensitive" church model, without being branded an illiterate opponent of all change. In another quarter century, it will be okay to be skeptical of the emergent church. Since there's a good chance I won't live that long, I claim the privilege of being skeptical now.

I don't believe that McLaren is bad reading, or dangerous, or anything else. I just believe he has an agenda to advance, and when reading his writings we need to kept that in mind.

Phil Michaels
9th May 2006, 08:54 PM (20:54)
Apparently you've never read anything he's written. If that's the case, my elaboration won't be of much help.

That was a pretty broad assumption, friend. Don't know where you got that idea. Elaborate, please, if you would; I think it's important to substantiate these sorts of statements: "axe to grind with the church", "established position", etc, by backing them up with solid evidence as to why we feel or think the way we do- I'll try to do the same in any future posts, too. :)

phil

Bruce Carriker
9th May 2006, 09:15 PM (21:15)
It may have been broad, but it really does seem to me that anyone who has read any of McLaren's work...even if they agree with it...know that he is pushing a specific agenda.

Billy Cox
9th May 2006, 10:01 PM (22:01)
I've read your post a couple of times now and I still don't know where this part is coming from.



There seems to be an idealistic treadmill called 'the New Testament church' on which many pastors labor...but it's based on a poor reading of the book of Acts.

The connection to the discussion? A patchy understanding of church history often leads us to joust windmills.

Bruce Carriker
9th May 2006, 10:34 PM (22:34)
Billy, you are aware that John Wesley believed that Act 2 was absolutely intended to be normative for the church, right?

Phil Michaels
9th May 2006, 11:31 PM (23:31)
.....you can't help but know that he thinks the church is pretty much at a "change or die" point in its history. I reject that idea out of hand. If the gates of hell aren't going to prevail against God's church, what makes McLaren think the church is in danger of either extinction or obsolesence?The church somehow managed to survive 2000 years without McLaren. That is not to say that the church has not changed. Surely it has. And it will continue to change, with or without those crying out that the fox is at the henhouse door. There was reform BEFORE the Reformation. There has been reform SINCE the Reformation.....Some have decided that we're moving from modernity to post-modernity. Perhaps that's true.....Has the church done some things wrong? Sure. Can the church do some things better? Sure. Are their changes the church needs to make? Sure. But I reject the wholesale change that many emergents, McLaren included, seem to think is necessary for the church to avoid certain death. If anything, it is consistency rather than adaptability that has been the strength of the church. And if we are truly moving into an age when we can be certain of nothing except change, it occurs to me that the place(s) that offer some consistency will the places that are sought out for sanctuary.....After a quarter century, it is finally okay to voice skepticism about the "seeker sensitive" church model, without being branded an illiterate opponent of all change. In another quarter century, it will be okay to be skeptical of the emergent church. Since there's a good chance I won't live that long, I claim the privilege of being skeptical now.....

Bruce-

Thanks for going in to a bit more detail as to why it is you think McLaren has an "axe to grind with the church", and an "established position." I'm not sure I would put those labels even on what you detailed in your edited post above.

So far I've read all three of McLaren's books in the "A New Kind of Christian" Trilogy, A Generous Orthodoxy, and parts of a couple of other books as well as many internet articles, interviews, and the like. So I feel as if I am pretty familiar with his work. I'm not 100% sold on everything Brian has to say. But then, that is true of anyone I read.

I'd like to respond to a couple of things you mentioned:

First, you said you reject the idea of "change or die" out of hand. That makes it hard to dialogue on the subject, but I'll try. I'm not sure that reducing McLaren's thoughts on ecclesiology to "change or die" is completely fair. It isn't so much that the church somehow must change, but that culture has dramatically changed, and as a result, we will have to dramatically change our approach to interacting with that culture if we hope to redeem it and the precious people that live within it. As a result, yes, a lot of what we have taken for granted as "gospel" about how the church is to operate needs to at the very least be called into question, deconstructed, and then reconstructed within the framework of a postmodern cultural context. I think that Brian would probably say that if that process results in dramatic changes to the church, then so be it, and if not, then so be it- just so long as we are responding appropriately to fulfill God's mission in the world in the time and place in which we find ourselves living- the time and place God has given us to be His agents of redemption. Of course, you also metioned that "perhaps it's true" that we are "moving from modernity to postmodernity"; which to me says you're not sure if that has or has not happened and to what extent. From my point of view, what was left of modernity came crashing down with the twin towers on September 11, 2001. There are still pockets of it, some quite large, but more and more we are emerging into a full blown postmodern cultural milieu. I'm kind of on the borderline, but anyone much younger than I (I'm 30) will not remember much if anything about the "modern world." Since you are coming from an apparently different viewpoint about the cultural/historical transitions we are (or are not) going through, then you'd quite naturally have a different take on a lot of this than I would.

Second, you said that "the church somehow managed to survive 2000 years without McLaren." To me, this sounds like you are saying that McLaren has somehow set himself up as "the next great thing for the church" or something like that- and that is clearly not the case as any reading of his notes about his own viewpoints, ministry, or place in history would show plainly. Still, I would say this: Judaism survived 2000 years without Jesus, Christianity survived 300+ years without a Bible, and another 1100+ without one that the common person could read; it survived 1500+ years without Martin Luther and the reformers; it survived 1700+ years without (gasp!) John Wesley; it survived almost 1900 years without the (double gasp!) Church of the Nazarene; and throughout it's history has often been know more for how badly it wanted to kill off anyone who disagreed with it and gain as much worldly power and riches as it could rather than any semblance of the principles and message of Christ. I would not want a Christianity without Jesus, the Bible in a language I can read, the Reformation, John Wesley, or the Church of the Nazarene, and I could do without a Christianity labelled by Crusades, killing, power and money grabbing, and the like. I say all that to say that just because something CAN "survive" without something or someone else, doesn't necessarily mean it is better off for it.

You said that "it is consistency rather than adaptability that has been the strength of the church." In my estimation that is one of our biggest problems.

I've heard nothing but people criticizing "seeker sensitive" all my life (which by the way is not necessarily my preferred model for church) so I'm not sure what you mean about being able to "finally" be skeptical about them. There are always skeptics of anything that is new- and it is true of the "emerging church movement" (if I can lump it all together and label it, which is hardly fair, but I will do so for the sake of the discussion) as well.

If the church has "done some things wrong" and can "do some things better" and has "changes it needs to make" as you have said, then if we can see possible solutions to experiment with, what is the point in waiting around to implement those solutions or at the very least try them out and see what might happen?

Finally, since you mentioned several times you agreed with a lot of what McLaren writes, I think it would be interesting if you would elaborate on the areas you do agree with as well...


phil

Wilson L. Deaton
9th May 2006, 11:41 PM (23:41)
There seems to be an idealistic treadmill called 'the New Testament church' on which many pastors labor...but it's based on a poor reading of the book of Acts.

The connection to the discussion? A patchy understanding of church history often leads us to joust windmills.

It's the age-old question we ask again and again. Which parts of NT are descriptive (simply describes how it was) and which parts are normative (showing how it should be--specifically)? If only that were an easy one to answer.

Wilson

Hans Deventer
10th May 2006, 03:04 AM (03:04)
Let me start again by saying I AGREE with a lot of what McLaren says, not just about The DaVinci Code, but about stuff in general. However, if you have ever read The Church on the Other Side, A New Kind of Christian, or any of his articles or interviews in Christianity Today, you can't help but know that he thinks the church is pretty much at a "change or die" point in its history. I reject that idea out of hand. If the gates of hell aren't going to prevail against God's church, what makes McLaren think the church is in danger of either extinction or obsolesence?


Bruce, here we run into the whole thing about God's foreknowledge, the meaning of prophecy etc. Or even, have you considered indeed the gates of hell aren't going to prevail IF we listen to the man?

I agree with his assessment, at least regarding the Western Church (in many areas in the world, the church is alive and well, often persecuted, but very much alive). For Jesus' words give no guarantee that in the Western world, the church may not be on the brink of extinction.

The Church is moving south in many ways, leaving behind the secular hedonistic western society. Look at Europe to see what that looks like in the US in some 20 or 30 years. And unless we find a way to reconnect to this post modern mindset of the Western world, we're out.

So I totally agree with you that he has an agenda. And a strong and clear one at that! And I happen to agree with that agenda.

I see it in my own church. Always the desire to be a decent, white, middle class church, wearily looking at those in their midst that don't fit that mindset. Loving great sermons (that don't really change anything) while in the mean time spending most of the time pursuing this world's dreams.
How come people think we are irrelevant? Our message looks irrelevant to our own lives!

Hans Deventer
10th May 2006, 03:14 AM (03:14)
It's the age-old question we ask again and again. Which parts of NT are descriptive (simply describes how it was) and which parts are normative (showing how it should be--specifically)? If only that were an easy one to answer.

Wilson

Let's try and work out this one as normative. I think we can't go wrong all that much doing so.

"Go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matt 9:13)