Where did Jesus go????

[James Diggs]

If you ask me “the ascension” is harder to “believe” than the incarnation of God or the resurrection. I am not saying I don’t believe it, I do by faith. I have my own theological understanding that helps me embrace it as the Word made flesh, who defeated death and rose again, closing the gap between God and his creation once separated by sin. It’s wonderful, because as Jesus goes away he also draws us all that much closer to God.

But, I also can’t help but to wonder what this all looked like for the disciples? Where the writers of the text just using mythical type language as a literary device? Why else is heaven “up”? Is heaven in outer space? If they all lived on the coast of the ocean, I wonder if Jesus could have walked on the water out to sea before disappearing into the distance.

But regardless, we believe in physical resurrection right? Scripture goes out of its way to point out (and that scripture was embraced as cannon over others) that Jesus was still flesh and blood after the resurrection and not just spirit. We don’t believe that the afterlife is about escaping our physical reality, we believe in resurrection and redemption- the coming of a new heaven and earth. Even in the ascension Jesus maintains the embrace of his humanity (though a glorified one) as he also embraces his divinity and ascends into heaven.

I don’t know where I am going with this, other than to ask the both absurd any yet practical question of “where did Jesus go?” And where is “heaven” that this glorified flesh and blood, God incarnate man we call Jesus be that he can as such draw close to the Father in that state? Is there some physical glorified realm out there we can not see? We believe Jesus lives- and not just metaphorically. This for me makes the Ascension of Christ that much more of a mystery.

[Hans Deventer]

James, I indeed think there is a realm we cannot see. Jesus ascending doesn't mean it's somehow "up there" or something. That leads to Russian astronauts saying they didn't find God in outer space. Duh.

[Jim Abrams]

Heaven, That realm just beyond the reach of our senses where Jesus is Lord of all. And from there occasionally according to the divine will we get glimpses of every now and then.

[Mike Fraley]

Right but the thrust of the question deals with the fact that Jesus ascended up. Now, how far did he ascend (as we're pretty sure that he's not currently traveling at the speed of light towards the edge of the known universe), and where did he ascend to?

Did he wait until he was just out of sight of the disciples before going to heaven? If so, did he just want to make a good show of it?

[Ryan Scott]

Maybe he's searching the universe for more members of his family - like Superman.

[Kevin Rector]

Up makes a lot of sense. In the day that he went up, nobody else could, hence going where they could not yet go. If he wandered off into the distance (for instance by walking off on the ocean) they could have gotten in a boat and followed him I suppose.

[Todd Erickson]

Dallas Willard expresses the heavenly realm as, essentially, another dimension a single photon away from here. To step there is to no longer be here, yet incredibly nearby.

Additionally, it would appear that while we cannot apprehend the Spirit within God's realm, he has no issue apprehending us.

[James Diggs]

Up makes a lot of sense. In the day that he went up, nobody else could, hence going where they could not yet go. If he wandered off into the distance (for instance by walking off on the ocean) they could have gotten in a boat and followed him I suppose.

So, if that part of history took place today would Jesus not have ascended up because we could have followed him with a airplane or rocket ship? ;) Yea, I know it makes sense from a symbolic and theological point of view, particularly in the context of the historical and cultural setting. That's why I wonder if the description is a bit of editorializing or mythologizing of what they saw used as a literary device to communicate their theological understanding. Or perhaps that is the best way they could describe it. Or perhaps Jesus did exactly what they said to help them find meaning in his departure. It may have been his chosen way to depart for the Father with them, but if it would have happened today he may have done something different.

[James Diggs]

Maybe he's searching the universe for more members of his family - like Superman.

That's from Superman Returns- Most Superman experts don't consider that Superman cannon :)

[Kevin Rector]

So, if that part of history took place today would Jesus not have ascended up because we could have followed him with a airplane or rocket ship? ;) Yea, I know it makes sense from a symbolic and theological point of view, particularly in the context of the historical and cultural setting. That's why I wonder if the description is a bit of editorializing or mythologizing of what they saw used as a literary device to communicate their theological understanding. Or perhaps that is the best way they could describe it. Or perhaps Jesus did exactly what they said to help them find meaning in his departure. It may have been his chosen way to depart for the Father with them, but if it would have happened today he may have done something different.

I think he would have still gone up, that has a strong visual punch to it. My guess is that he sort of faded to spirit once he was out of sight. I believe in a bodily resurrection, but not in the sense that we know of now. His post resurrection body could show up in locked rooms and look different in different circumstances. I think we put too many limits on what "bodily" means and the vestiges of our disconnect between the spiritual and physical will finally be removed in the great resurrection.

[James Diggs]

I think he would have still gone up, that has a strong visual punch to it.
Agreed


I believe in a bodily resurrection, but not in the sense that we know of now. His post resurrection body could show up in locked rooms and look different in different circumstances.
yea, I thought of that.


I think we put too many limits on what "bodily" means and the vestiges of our disconnect between the spiritual and physical will finally be removed in the great resurrection.

That's a beautiful statement, even though I did have to look up the word "vestiges". :) It brings to mind the image of the further uniting of Creator and Creation that I think is consistent with whole point of the ascension anyway.

[Jim Chabot]

So, if that part of history took place today would Jesus not have ascended up because we could have followed him with a airplane or rocket ship? ;) Yea, I know it makes sense from a symbolic and theological point of view, particularly in the context of the historical and cultural setting. That's why I wonder if the description is a bit of editorializing or mythologizing of what they saw used as a literary device to communicate their theological understanding. Or perhaps that is the best way they could describe it. Or perhaps Jesus did exactly what they said to help them find meaning in his departure. It may have been his chosen way to depart for the Father with them, but if it would have happened today he may have done something different.

Well, maybe that's why this didn't take place today? Then again, I don't think we could follow him with either a plane or a rocket, he would be gone before we could get off the ground. We haven't been able to follow a single flying saucer have we?

I know where he ended up. Right here!

[John Reilly]

"Up" is definitely a Biblical answer. I like the concept of the third heaven. I also like the concept of Paradise where Jesus would see the thief who was on a cross on one side of him. A question I have is why did only Luke write about the ascension? Why did not Matthew, Mark and John, Peter or any of the eleven make reference to the ascension?

[Wilson Deaton]

His post resurrection body could show up in locked rooms and look different in different...

Personally, Kevin, I don't think we can discern too much about the post-resurrection body from the things Jesus did post-resurrection.

Basically, we have no way of knowing if Jesus could enter a locked room because of a special miracle (like walking on water or walking away through a hostile crowd) or if he could do so because it was the nature of his resurrected body to be able to do so...

(I was thinking about you yesterday... Chelsie met credentials board which, per district journal, you were supposed to be on!)

Wilson

[Shea Zellweger]

he was enveloped by the clouds. As we all know, Thunder is the sound of angels bowling, and clouds are the source of rain, so I'm thinking Jesus went to the bowling alley.

[David Graham]

Actually I'm thinking of some sort of tractor beam that took him up into a spaceship hidden by the clouds, afterwhich they all flew away laughing saying: "Well we sure fooled all of them"!:smilies0262:

Of course, what I've written above is honestly believed by many skeptics in the world including some of my friends who think that I have been taken in by a lie. But I wonder if they have been taken in by their own human limitations and perception of the world only in physical terms. i.e. I can't do that, therefore it couldn't have happened.... unless of course some scientific discovery makes it possible, and aliens are much more advanced than us arn't they???:smilies1722:

To the ancient mind, Heaven was just beyond the dome of the sky (i.e. the Copernian universe) and therefore Jesus had to go up to get back home. Also, since he lived "up there" he would eventually return from "up" there which meant that he would simply come back down in a similar way to how they saw him go.

For us, who are apparently more enlightened, this causes some confusion because up there is simply to go "out" into space. So why did he go up..... certainly not for our benefit, but for those of his disciples who watched him depart from them and who had to face an unfriendly world without him. Perhaps it was simply to reassure them: "Hey don't worry guys, I'm just up there beyond the dome.... and I'll be keeping an eye on you"!

For us, he is in heaven and where that wonderful place is, I don't know. Possibly its in another dimmension altogether? Although one day we'll find out.:ihe_cowboy:

Blessings,
Dave

[Eric Vail]

James, this is a great question you have posed. It is not one I have considered for a while. In seminary I looked at a few articles by Andy Johnson on the topic of Christ's resurrected body and Paul's take on our bodies.

Andy Johnson, "Resurrection, ascension and the developing portrait of the God of Israel in Acts," Scottish Journal of Theology, 57 no 2 (2004): 146-162.

"Turning the world upside down in 1 Corinthians 15: Apocalyptic epistemology, the resurrected body and the new creation," Evangelical Quarterly, 75 no 4 O (2003): 291-309.

"Ripples of the resurrection in the triune life of God: reading Luke 24 with eschatological and trinitarian eyes," Horizons in Biblical Theology, 24 no 2 D (2002): 87-110.

"Our God reigns: the body of the risen Lord in Luke 24," Word & World, 22 no 2 Spr (2002): 133-143.

More recently I was directed to a great article by J. Richard Middleton, "A New Heaven and a New Earth: The Case for a Holistic Reading of the Biblical Story of Redemption," Journal for Christian Theological Research 11 (2006): 73-97. Online: http://www2.luthersem.edu/ctrf/JCTR/Vol11/Middleton_vol11.pdf.

Middleton discusses the nature of "heaven" in the Bible and its eschatological function. It does not answer every question, but I found it fascinating.

[Eric Vail]

I did a quick search of what books might be out there on the subject and found the following list. Has anyone read any of these or have another that you would recommend?

Ascension now: implications of Christ's ascension for today's church
Citation Only Available By: Atkins, Peter, Bp. Collegeville, Minn: Liturgical Pr, 2001 . Publication Type: Book
Subjects: Church Liturgy/Worship/Music, Christian; Practical/Pastoral Theology, Christian

Ascension and ecclesia: on the significance of the doctrine of the Ascension for ecclesiology and Christian cosmology
Citation Only Available By: Farrow, Douglas. Edinburgh: T & T Clark ; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999 . Publication Type: Book
Subjects: Systematic Theology, Christian--1900-1999

The ascension of the messiah in Lukan Christology
Citation Only Available By: Zwiep, Arie W.. Leiden: E J Brill, 1997 . Publication Type: Book
Subjects: New Testament

The ascension in Karl Barth
Citation Only Available By: Burgess, Andrew R.. Aldershot: Ashgate, 2004 . Publication Type: Book
Subjects: Systematic Theology, Christian--1900-1999

The Departure of Jesus in Luke-Acts: The Ascension Narratives in Context
By: Parsons, Mikeal C.. Sheffield: JSOT Pr, 1987 .

The Ascension of our Lord
By: Toon, Peter. Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1984 .

The Ascension of Christ in the Works of St AugustineCitation Only Available By: Marrevee, William H.. [S.l.]: Univ of Ottawa Pr, 1967 .

[Kevin Rector]

(I was thinking about you yesterday... Chelsie met credentials board which, per district journal, you were supposed to be on!)

Wilson

Well I am on the credentials board, just for a different district. :)

[Ryan Plott]

I don’t know where I am going with this, other than to ask the both absurd any yet practical question of “where did Jesus go?” And where is “heaven” that this glorified flesh and blood, God incarnate man we call Jesus be that he can as such draw close to the Father in that state? Is there some physical glorified realm out there we can not see? We believe Jesus lives- and not just metaphorically. This for me makes the Ascension of Christ that much more of a mystery.

Where did Jesus go?- Like the elephant in the art museum, he went wherever he wanted to go. Based on his life as recorded in Scripture my guess would be wherever the Father is.

Is there some physical glorified realm out there we cannot see?-I hope so. I have faith that there is. Some days are easier for belief than others.

[Cynthia Prentice]

If you ask me “the ascension” is harder to “believe” than the incarnation of God or the resurrection. I am not saying I don’t believe it, I do by faith. I have my own theological understanding that helps me embrace it as the Word made flesh, who defeated death and rose again, closing the gap between God and his creation once separated by sin. It’s wonderful, because as Jesus goes away he also draws us all that much closer to God.

But, I also can’t help but to wonder what this all looked like for the disciples? Where the writers of the text just using mythical type language as a literary device? Why else is heaven “up”? Is heaven in outer space? If they all lived on the coast of the ocean, I wonder if Jesus could have walked on the water out to sea before disappearing into the distance.

But regardless, we believe in physical resurrection right? Scripture goes out of its way to point out (and that scripture was embraced as cannon over others) that Jesus was still flesh and blood after the resurrection and not just spirit. We don’t believe that the afterlife is about escaping our physical reality, we believe in resurrection and redemption- the coming of a new heaven and earth. Even in the ascension Jesus maintains the embrace of his humanity (though a glorified one) as he also embraces his divinity and ascends into heaven.

I don’t know where I am going with this, other than to ask the both absurd any yet practical question of “where did Jesus go?” And where is “heaven” that this glorified flesh and blood, God incarnate man we call Jesus be that he can as such draw close to the Father in that state? Is there some physical glorified realm out there we can not see? We believe Jesus lives- and not just metaphorically. This for me makes the Ascension of Christ that much more of a mystery.

I've been thinking about your question...I think mystery is a wonderful discription. From what I understand the Jews looked at Heaven as being above but yet not totally seperate from earth because of God. They saw God's presence bringing Heaven and Earth together, joined (spanned)in sense...God's throne being in Heaven but the Earth being his footstool...as if he is sitting there...legs coming down...feet resting here. They also saw God as "walking" before them...his legs being the pillar of cloud and pillar of fire coming out of Heaven. I like it that they didn't see God as "up there far away" but they saw him...even before the incarnation as being present with them. So...from a Jewish perspective...returning to Heaven isn't nearly as far away as we think it is.

[James Diggs]

I've been thinking about your question...I think mystery is a wonderful discription. From what I understand the Jews looked at Heaven as being above but yet not totally seperate from earth because of God. They saw God's presence bringing Heaven and Earth together, joined (spanned)in sense...God's throne being in Heaven but the Earth being his footstool...as if he is sitting there...legs coming down...feet resting here. They also saw God as "walking" before them...his legs being the pillar of cloud and pillar of fire coming out of Heaven. I like it that they didn't see God as "up there far away" but they saw him...even before the incarnation as being present with them. So...from a Jewish perspective...returning to Heaven isn't nearly as far away as we think it is.

Great Observation Cynthia- thanks a lot- I think you are right! I wonder if this informs the idea that there will one day be a "new heaven and a new earth"? I always wondered why we needed a "new heaven", but this makes sense if the Jews saw heaven and earth as more connected than we tend to. I guess in the new creation they will be even closer.

[Jeff Scott]

Probably Vermont. Have you ever been there? It's awesome. That's my guess.

[Rich Schmidt]

To the ancient mind, Heaven was just beyond the dome of the sky (i.e. the Copernian universe) and therefore Jesus had to go up to get back home. Also, since he lived "up there" he would eventually return from "up" there which meant that he would simply come back down in a similar way to how they saw him go.

For us, who are apparently more enlightened, this causes some confusion because up there is simply to go "out" into space. So why did he go up..... certainly not for our benefit, but for those of his disciples who watched him depart from them and who had to face an unfriendly world without him. Perhaps it was simply to reassure them: "Hey don't worry guys, I'm just up there beyond the dome.... and I'll be keeping an eye on you"!

I think their concept of the universe included at least 3 levels to heaven, right? There's the (flat) earth, and above that is the dome of the sky (1st heaven), beyond that is the dome where the sun, moon, and stars reside (2nd heaven), and beyond that is the spiritual realm (3rd heaven). Is that right? It's been too long since I've studied this. Paul makes reference in 2 Corinthians 12:2 to being "caught up to the third heaven," which he describes as "paradise."

Oh, look. A little Googling shows me that there's a brief article on this topic at Dennis Bratcher's crivoice.org: "What is the 'third heaven'?" (http://www.crivoice.org/thirdheaven.html)

Some conceived heaven as consisting of seven different levels. You've all heard of being in "seventh heaven," right? I believe this is where that phrase comes from.

So, anyway, Jesus ascends to the place of honor at his Father's right hand. That's all over the New Testament: Acts 7; Eph. 1; Phil. 2-3; Col. 3; etc. And in their minds, that would have been in the third (or seventh?) heaven.

Where would we say that is, today? Where is God's throne? I guess that's the real question, huh? And I don't have a good answer for it. But there's no question that Jesus remains fully human, fully glorified.... and that he will be returning one day.

[Gina Stevenson]

Probably Vermont. Have you ever been there? It's awesome. That's my guess.

For some of that maple syrup, right? [well, what can you expected after 4am? pit stop lasted a bit too long] ;)

[Brian Postlewait]

At the risk of being extra-biblical, it's interesting to reflect on scientific theories that hypothesize as many as 10 or 11 dimensions. If as many exist, something must exist within them. I'd say that leaves the door wide open for all kinds of speculation--a cosmic Where's Waldo adventure.

Our Roman brothers and sisters are much less squeamish with this question, for them the space and time between life and death is very blurry. They speak with the saints and even family member because they believe them to be near--something Jesus promised to be. I find myself queasy and comforted all at the same time by the possibilities of such a reality.

As for a bodily existence within our known universe, each time we break bread we say, "this is the Body of Christ."

[Benjamin Burch]

At the risk of being extra-biblical, it's interesting to reflect on scientific theories that hypothesize as many as 10 or 11 dimensions. If as many exist, something must exist within them. I'd say that leaves the door wide open for all kinds of speculation--a cosmic Where's Waldo adventure.

Our Roman brothers and sisters are much less squeamish with this question, for them the space and time between life and death is very blurry. They speak with the saints and even family member because they believe them to be near--something Jesus promised to be. I find myself queasy and comforted all at the same time by the possibilities of such a reality.

As for a bodily existence within our known universe, each time we break bread we say, "this is the Body of Christ."

You sure didn't resolve any scientific tension, but you sure did give the answer I would want to give. Thank you, very much for this post Brian.

[Randy Wise]

I don’t know where I am going with this, other than to ask the both absurd any yet practical question of “where did Jesus go?” And where is “heaven” that this glorified flesh and blood, God incarnate man we call Jesus be that he can as such draw close to the Father in that state? Is there some physical glorified realm out there we can not see? We believe Jesus lives- and not just metaphorically. This for me makes the Ascension of Christ that much more of a mystery.


I am in the group that sees heaven as a place where Gods throne dwells and in the saying of God, "heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool", also suggests to me that heaven is above the earth somewhere that human eyes can't see without Gods help. (That is by our human senses (eyes)) or even the hubble telescope):o

Paul wrote about a report he heard of one that was "caught up" to the third heaven and we also read of a very much alive Jesus and a bright light from heaven in the testimony of Pauls appointment as a Apostle by Jesus.

Randy

[Rich Schmidt]

So.... how many of you brought this topic up in your sermons today? It's Ascension Sunday, so we talked about the implications of Jesus' ascension for our day-to-day lives. And I started by acknowledging that this is one of the goofy/weird parts of Christian faith. We believe that Jesus lifted off and flew up into the sky somewhere. But where? Etc.

Thanks, James, for starting this thread and getting us all thinking! :)

[Kami Tuenning]

If you ask me “the ascension” is harder to “believe” than the incarnation of God or the resurrection. I am not saying I don’t believe it, I do by faith. I have my own theological understanding that helps me embrace it as the Word made flesh, who defeated death and rose again, closing the gap between God and his creation once separated by sin. It’s wonderful, because as Jesus goes away he also draws us all that much closer to God.



But regardless, we believe in physical resurrection right? Scripture goes out of its way to point out (and that scripture was embraced as cannon over others) that Jesus was still flesh and blood after the resurrection and not just spirit. We don’t believe that the afterlife is about escaping our physical reality, we believe in resurrection and redemption- the coming of a new heaven and earth. Even in the ascension Jesus maintains the embrace of his humanity (though a glorified one) as he also embraces his divinity and ascends into heaven.

I don’t know where I am going with this, other than to ask the both absurd any yet practical question of “where did Jesus go?” And where is “heaven” that this glorified flesh and blood, God incarnate man we call Jesus be that he can as such draw close to the Father in that state? Is there some physical glorified realm out there we can not see? We believe Jesus lives- and not just metaphorically. This for me makes the Ascension of Christ that much more of a mystery.





I waited and waited before I made a response...but this seems like one of the weirdest questions I have heard on NazNet. Forgive me brothers and sisters, I enjoy that NazNet is about accepting honest questions with respect and reflecting intellectually, spiritually and charitably upon those questions. Quite frankly, I hope I don't sound like an old fuddy dud, but I felt some of the responses were...forgive me ....but flippant.

Sorry...but I still love you guys anyhow!

[Rich Schmidt]

Quite frankly, I hope I don't sound like an old fuddy dud, but I felt some of the responses were...forgive me ....but flippant.

I imagine some of the "flippant" responses were due to the fact that there's no way for us to get an answer for this question from the Bible. Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven.... which just pushes the question back a step to "Where is heaven?"

So when we know that our only honest answer is ultimately going to be "I don't know".... well, I guess that leads us to go ahead and have fun with it. :)

[Chris Wells]

To the ancient mind, Heaven was just beyond the dome of the sky (i.e. the Copernian universe) and therefore Jesus had to go up to get back home. Also, since he lived "up there" he would eventually return from "up" there which meant that he would simply come back down in a similar way to how they saw him go.


I seem to recall a Bible study in which a few occasions in the OT where God spoke from heaven were analyzed. The pastor translated heaven as the local airspace. This, too, only confounds our discussion, therefore, I think the focus of the question should be turned to its significance. Why did Jesus depart in this way? What impact did it leave upon the disciples?

I would submit that the disciples actually saw Jesus rise into the sky until he was out of sight. What happened to him then was probably more of the same disappearance-reappearance stuff that he had been doing since his resurrection. I imagine the disciples thought as he faded away, "Wow, he's somewhere out of our reach, somewhere incomprehensible. He's out of this world!" This informs how the disciples must have felt as they waited for the Comforter and the joy that they experienced in his presence on Pentecost. To translate the image I'm trying to convey--and I do mean this quite seriously--I think it analogous to a hero riding off into the sunset, only our hero promised that he would return to consummate the 'vestiges' that he left in his wake as he cleaned up our town.

[David Graham]

I seem to recall a Bible study in which a few occasions in the OT where God spoke from heaven were analyzed. The pastor translated heaven as the local airspace. This, too, only confounds our discussion, therefore, I think the focus of the question should be turned to its significance. Why did Jesus depart in this way? What impact did it leave upon the disciples?

I would submit that the disciples actually saw Jesus rise into the sky until he was out of sight. What happened to him then was probably more of the same disappearance-reappearance stuff that he had been doing since his resurrection. I imagine the disciples thought as he faded away, "Wow, he's somewhere out of our reach, somewhere incomprehensible. He's out of this world!" This informs how the disciples must have felt as they waited for the Comforter and the joy that they experienced in his presence on Pentecost. To translate the image I'm trying to convey--and I do mean this quite seriously--I think it analogous to a hero riding off into the sunset, only our hero promised that he would return to consummate the 'vestiges' that he left in his wake as he cleaned up our town.

Yes certainly I agree that "beyond" the cloud (that hid him from the sight of the disciples, he simply dissappeared from our world to "reappear" in Heaven (where ever that is?)
The point that I was trying to make when speaking of the Copernian Universe was that because of their perceptions of where Heaven was, they expected him to "ascend into the sky".... and he didn't dissappoint them. And likewise for us, who can't at this stage understand the "technical" aspects of interdimmensional travel (assuming of course that this is what Jesus did?) how would Christ return to heaven in a way that would make sense to us? For him simply to disappear could be perceived by us that he might be still here..... but how could that be because he said that he had to go away before the Holy Spirit could come? I have no idea how he would have left us today in a way that we could comprehend it...... by simply going up indicates "space travel" (So maybe my skeptical mate of my former post could be seen to be right?) and "heaven" therefore could be another planet? This would leave us with more problems than it would solve. But the ascension for the disciples was the only natural thing for the Son of God to have done, and at the same time they felt assured that Christ (perhaps in the 7th Heaven) beyond the dome would be looking down and watching over them.

For me, as simply a matter of faith, it is enough the Jesus is in Heaven interceding for me before the Father, which indicates that where ever he is he still knows what is going on in my life...... and this is also true for every believer.

Blessings,
Dave

[Rich Schmidt]

...when speaking of the Copernian Universe ...

That's the second time you've used that phrase. Do you mean Copernican, as a reference to Copernicus? The guy who developed the heliocentric theory of the solar system over against the traditional geocentric one? If so... then it's pretty clear that the biblical view of the universe was NOT Copernican.

[David Graham]

Okay Rich, I made a mistake, regarding the name of the system in which the earth was the centre of the universe and where there were 7 levels of heaven; and to top this off.... horror of horrors.... I even mis-spelt the word Copernican. I'm presently sitting in an empty office here in Stanthorpe with 99% of my books sitting in my new office near Towoomba 120+ KM's away. You are right it couldn't have been Copernicus' model since his system was developed around 1500 AD, and without reference to my books I'm not game to call it Ptolomaic either lest I get "pulled" up for another mistake.

Cheers,

[Steven Martinez]

Three glorious words come to mind as they solve so much... scandal of particularity! The problem I think is with the word earth. We in contemporary language refer to the planet we are on as the earth when in fact that is not the proper name for it. In Hebrew the word we often translate as earth is more inline with something like soil or dirt. For example, an earthworm is named such because it lives in the earth (ground) and not say in the sky or in the sea. In fact that seems to be the two dimensions of the planet we live on according to the Genesis account. There is the heavens (sky) and the earth (not sky - ground). Creation is defined as what dwells between these two realities. The OT seems to suggest that Israel was most likely no different then many pagan societies who saw "up" being more beneficial then "down" and attributed God as being above them rather then being below them. God's judgment is seen as rain while the Psalmist looks toward the heavens and we even have a prophet who is carried away in a flying chariot. Even the Covenant of God to Israel is made from atop a mountain. So it seems "natural" for Christ to leave in a way that they would understand.
Of course while the disciples were looking up they had to be reminded that there mission was not to look up and try to find Jesus but to look forward to His return and to spread the kingdom that He will come back to reign.

[Brian Postlewait]

A friend and I were talking about this post and he sent me this comment:

NIV Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you-- even Jesus. 21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

I like the way this text links Jesus' presence in heaven with the coming restoration of everything (rather than the way I often perceive Revelation's image of Jesus in heaven and the coming destruction of everything.)

Peace,
Brian

[JR Bob Dobs]

Hey James,

Great question!

First of all, there are no absurd questions when it comes to this highly speculative realm. Dare to know. Question boldly. Explore Everything.
The Search for Truth. There's is no religion higher than truth.

The question of “where did Jesus go?” Well here's my 2 cents. I'm a very straight forward person & call them em like I see them. As for where he went,- for lack of a better word,- I'd say he was 'transported or what not' to Heaven or Paradise or Heaven in a 'glorified body' (or the 'khu' in ancient egyptian . Another important and apparently eternal & imperishable part of a man was the khu, which, judging from the meaning of the word, may be defined as a "shining" or translucent, intangible casing or covering of the body, for want of a better word khu has often been translated "shining one," "glorious," "intelligence," and the like, but in certain cases it may be tolerably well rendered by "spirit."

Basically just as it says. I guess I'll give the Bible the benefit of the doubt & take it on face value.

For what it's worth,
James

[Hans Deventer]

The Search for Truth. There's is no religion higher than truth.



It were well you should be thoroughly sensible of this, -- `the heaven of heavens is love.' There is nothing higher in religion; there is, in effect, nothing else; if you look for anything but more love, you are looking wide of the mark, you are getting out of the royal way. And when you are asking others, `Have you received this or that blessing?' if you mean anything but more love, you mean wrong; you are leading them out of the way, and putting them upon a false scent. Settle it then in your heart, that from the moment God has saved you from all sin, you are to aim at nothing more, but more of that love described in the thirteenth of the Corinthians. [1 Cor. 13] You can go no higher than this, till you are carried into Abraham's bosom. (John Wesley - A Plain Account Of Christian Perfection)

[Rich Schmidt]

The question of “where did Jesus go?” Well here's my 2 cents. I'm a very straight forward person & call them em like I see them. As for where he went,- for lack of a better word,- I'd say he was 'transported or what not' to Heaven or Paradise or Heaven in a 'glorified body'

James,

The question then becomes, "And where is heaven/paradise?"

[Randy Wise]

Well we could also view that we are limiting Jesus to a single location when we ask, "where did Jesus go?" Isn't He also with us? (Christ in us)

Randy

[Rich Schmidt]

Well we could also view that we are limiting Jesus to a single location when we ask, "where did Jesus go?" Isn't He also with us? (Christ in us)

Randy

Yes, he is, but that doesn't answer the initial question: Where did Jesus' physical body go when he "ascended into heaven"? Jesus' physical body -- the one he walked around in after his resurrection -- isn't in the room with me right now. I'm the only one here. Yes, Jesus is present with me by his Holy Spirit -- and he's physically present in that I am a member of Christ's body. But that's an entirely different way of talking about "where Jesus is" than the initial question was.

[Randy Wise]

Yes, he is, but that doesn't answer the initial question: Where did Jesus' physical body go when he "ascended into heaven"? Jesus' physical body -- the one he walked around in after his resurrection -- isn't in the room with me right now. I'm the only one here. Yes, Jesus is present with me by his Holy Spirit -- and he's physically present in that I am a member of Christ's body. But that's an entirely different way of talking about "where Jesus is" than the initial question was.

Well ok then:o

However how will any of us state where heaven "is" since we have never been there and even if we have been there and back how would you explain where heaven is without the other person having the same perspective? (other than caught up to the 3rd heaven) The above direction does seem consistent though.:o

R.

[James Diggs]

I'm a very straight forward person & call them em like I see them. As for where he went,- for lack of a better word,- I'd say he was 'transported or what not' to Heaven or Paradise or Heaven in a 'glorified body' ….Basically just as it says. I guess I'll give the Bible the benefit of the doubt & take it on face value.


Thanks JR. I think we’re also left with the theological implications of what’s going on in the ‘straight forward’ narrative. For me there was the initial question of what this means for the resurrection- I think we often treat Jesus as purely a “spiritual being” and so then “glorified body” takes on a less than physical meaning that flirts with Gnosticism.

The point is Jesus maintains his humanity, he takes it with him “back to the Father”. This has great theological implications, but also begs the practical question is where is the Father that Jesus can now exist ONE with him while maintaining his humanity and physicality (even if glorified) of it?


The question then becomes, "And where is heaven/paradise?"

Yes, so that is one of the head scratcher’s we wrestled with in the conversation- not that we “solved” such a mystery but we did bask in it a bit.


Well we could also view that we are limiting Jesus to a single location when we ask, "where did Jesus go?" Isn't He also with us? (Christ in us)

Randy, I think you are on to something most relevant of all to the narrative of the Ascension. Somehow in Jesus’ going away he actually draws us all closer to him. Whatever gap there may have been between “heaven and earth” was shrunk and pressed together as God incarnate returns to the Father with his humanity in tact.

This act of the Ascension reminds us how God is with us in our physical reality and how our physical reality is also with God- represented by Jesus Christ. This brings a refreshing point of view of Jesus as “our Advocate” in a way that goes way beyond just the legalese we typically use when talking about that concept.



Yes, he is, but that doesn't answer the initial question: Where did Jesus' physical body go when he "ascended into heaven"? Jesus' physical body -- the one he walked around in after his resurrection -- isn't in the room with me right now. I'm the only one here. Yes, Jesus is present with me by his Holy Spirit -- and he's physically present in that I am a member of Christ's body. But that's an entirely different way of talking about "where Jesus is" than the initial question was.

I don’t know Rich- I know when I first asked the question I emphasized that very practical mystery of WHERE. But I do think that part of embracing the mystery of where this physical realm is that the Son, as a glorified physical human being, can exist with the Father, is to in that moment of wonder while looking up in the sky realize that because of the Ascension the mystery is no longer just in the sky- but right here on earth too! - I think that is the point.

God is with us, in all the reality of physicality he is here and we are present with him also with the Father where He is through Jesus Christ.

So in a very real way- I think those two concepts both the "where?" (that we asked) and "with us" (as Randy reminds us) are very much tied together as part of one great mystery we can partake and enjoy through Jesus Christ in both our every day lives and in the Resurrection to come.