Interpreting the Koran

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I do not believe the Koran stands on equal footing with the Bible. I do not believe the Koran is God-inspired.

However, I do believe there are some basic principles of interpretation that apply to the Koran and must be understood.

First of all, analogous to the Bible having multiple versions like KJV, NIV, and even the Jehovah’s Witness version that most of don’t even accept, the Koran also exists in multiple versions some of which are used by some sects more than others. Some versions have been made more violence-supporting than others would even consider valid.

Secondly, like the Bible, it is important to understand the context and historical background of the Koran before assuming you understand the meaning.

For example, we are constantly being told that the Koran teaches it’s readers to kill Christians. I decided to do some research to see exactly what it does say. I found you will find many sites that will quote a single verse here and there and then treat it like it is a general Islamic principle.

For example, you will often find a site addressing the question, “Does the Koran teach that Muslims should kill unbelievers?” The answer will be given as, 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find them and drive them out from whence they drove you out,”

I don’t care what anybody says that is proof-texting pure and simple. Try reading the same passage in its direct context of verse before and after and you will see what I mean.

2:190 And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
2:192 And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Muslims (except the extremists) will tell you this teaches them to defend themselves if they are being attacked and persecuted ("those who fight with you", etc.). It does not tell them aggressively go around killing all unbelievers. In fact, they are specifically told not to continue the fighting if the persecution stops, “if they desist”.

Furthermore, the version issue is raised. 2:190 in another version says, “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.” Instead of the more ambiguous, “not exceed limits” this version clearly refers to the idea of who is starting it.

Besides those issues, there are Muslims who teach that even these passages, when understood in the overall historical background, refer to a specific time and place when Mohammed’s teaching was beginning to spread and particular group had begun persecuting them. In other words it is analagous to the way the Israelites treated Jericho, Ai, etc. and should not be read as a general injunction for all Muslims to kill all unbelievers at all times.

Of course there are Muslim extremists who interpret these passages in extreme and become terrorists and suicide bombers but then again there are “Christians” who blow up abortion clinics and protest military funerals claiming that God is glad they are dead because “God hates fags.”

Christians must stop spreading the inflammatory rumor that it is a “standard” Islamic teaching in the Koran, accepted by all Muslims, that they should all be killing Christians.

Wilson

[Bruce Carriker]

Next you'll be telling us that all Muslims aren't evil, or that they don't all support al Qaeda, or that some of them are even reasonable.

[Peter Teolis]

Next you'll be telling us that all Muslims aren't evil, or that they don't all support al Qaeda, or that some of them are even reasonable.

Now Bruce is this not stereotyping!

[Terri Knoll]

Christians must stop spreading the inflammatory rumor that it is a “standard” Islamic teaching in the Koran, accepted by all Muslims, that they should all be killing Christians.


I am trying to do my part with the ones that I associate with :cool:

[Wilson L. Deaton]

i can't speak to *killing* - i can speak to truth about the war between Muslims and Christian Arabs. The Muslims hate the Christian Arabs. This isn't a rumor- this is truth.

Think about what you are saying. You are claiming to know the truth about what is in the hearts and minds of millions of people you haven't met. You are claiming your knowledge isn't rumor but truth.

God knows what was in the hearts and minds of all those people. You don't.

Making such generalized (stereotypical) statements is not only detrimental to our multi-cultural relations, it is also dangerous in the sense that if you are mistaken (if there are Muslims who don't "hate" Christians) you could find yourself to be bearing false witness.


In their culture - Muslims are those who are redeemed and the Christians are the heathens.

True. Is this supposed to be evidence that they hate Christians?

In the Christian culture, Christians are the redeemed and Muslims are the heathens? Does that mean Christians hate Muslims? (Actually, I'm almost afraid to ask based on some of the stuff I 've read on NazNet.)

Wilson

[Terri Knoll]

i can't speak to *killing* - i can speak to truth about the war between Muslims and Christian Arabs. The Muslims hate the Christian Arabs. This isn't a rumor- this is truth.

In their culture - Muslims are those who are redeemed and the Christians are the heathens.

on both sides of the issue, Pride rears it's ugly head. Pride is sin. We ARE called to love. Our savior commanded it :rolleyes:
I *know* what you are talking about, I *know* what others are talking about, I *hear* it in the voices of the ones I talk to (if you want to hear from muslims all over the world, uncheck all of your safetys on your messengers lol) but hate of any kind is just an excuse for sin. Humans have been coming up with loopholes like that since time began :basic05
it's not that I don't have sympathy for christians being *killed for Christ* it's just that Jesus told us that would happen, so it isn't surprising. I do wish that His love could end all atrocities and of course I pray for that, but I am left with the responsibility to share this Love wherever I may. that's at least something. I *wish* we could all love Jesus, the way He loves us, and that all of Gods children could just PLAY NICE!

[Terri Knoll]

exactly what I was trying to say. I was agreeing with you. we *know* muslims hate christians etc, but we are here to Love the ones we can. minister to them. sorry I don't articulate things well sometimes :basic05

there is *truth* on both sides of the coin, but Gods children can play nice! ministering/talking out these things helps. is that any clearer?

[Terri Knoll]

I forgot to add an example

when we were in Germany, the US bombed Libya. personally, I had great experiences with the culture and enjoyed great freedoms there, but I witnessed several *hate* crimes against Americans (not just in Germany, France too) and these are wasp attacks on wasps!

so I don't let hate be the reason for improper treatment of fellow humans. it's sin

or another: a friend that constantly cheated on his wife (both believers) saying I didn't know what it was like to be a man. that a man had to release himself. when I asked why Jesus didn't have to be promiscuous, I was told, well he had the spirit of God in him. I said, hello! you do too!
another excuse for sin. adultery is sin.

this could go on for eons, lol, but hopefully you get my drift.

[Bruce Carriker]

I never experienced any "hate" crimes while I served in Germany. It was an almost universally positive experience. I was there three different times, for a total of a little over four years.

The "hate" crimes that took place while I was there were perpetrated by the Red Army Faction...descendants of the Bader-Meinhof terrorist group. And they pretty much hated everyone who wasn't one of them, and blew up a lot of stuff. They tried to blow up the US Commander-in-Chief, Europe (CINCEUR) while I was there, but that was more anti-NATO than anti-American. We just happened to have the largest NATO contingent in Germany, so we got targeted more than the Germans, Brits, or Canadians. But all in all, I'd say the RAF was pretty much "equal opportunity haters".

As for the French, I'm not sure what qualifies as a "hate crime" in some people's vocabulary; but my experience with the French was that they hate everyone who isn't French. It wasn't so much "anti-American" hate, as it was, "You're not French so we hate you."

Anyhow, back on point: While I was in Europe (also did some extended TDY in Belgium), I never felt "singled out" for any "hate" crimes or prejudicial treatment simply because I was an American.

I will say, however, that watching how Americans conducted themselves overseas, it really wasn't hard for me to understand why some folks don't like us. Stereotypes become stereotypes because there is an element of truth to them. The "ugly American tourist" is a classic example. We get up in arms because Hispanics expect us to learn their language and cater to them, yet when we travel, we expect everyone else in the world to speak English. We think that if we speak slower and louder, they will understand (yes, this is not just in the movies).

We make no allowances for cultural differences - if you've ever used a rest stop toilet in France or Italy, you know what I'm talking about; and then we talk about how backward other cultures are. If you've ever watched an American tourist try to go shopping in France (other than the tourist trap places) in the middle of an afternoon, and then curse the locals because they have the audacity to close up shop in the middle of the day, you know what I mean.

This is way off the topic of interpreting the Koran, so I'll stop now.

[Bruce Carriker]

i can't speak to *killing* - i can speak to truth about the war between Muslims and Christian Arabs. The Muslims hate the Christian Arabs. This isn't a rumor- this is truth.



But why wouldn't they, Belinda? If you look at how the Western (mostly Christian) world has treated the Arab world for most of history, and the way that many Christian Arabs have capitalized on Western power and support to their own advantage, why wouldn't the Muslims hate all Christians, and especially Arab Christians.

We (Western Christians) like to think of ourselves as some monolithic group that is always benevolent and loving towards their fellow man, only wanting to see people live in peace and come to know and love and serve God. Unfortunately, that is not the history of world.

For every western missionary who has reached out with that attitude, there have been countless other western "Christians" who came only to exploit the region for it's natural resources, or to dominate it because of its strategic value. And to make sure that happened, we installed and/or supported rulers like the Shah of Iran, the Faud family in Saudi Arabia, and Saddam Hussein (yes, he was our friend before he was our enemy).

This history does not, in any way, justify the acts of terror that are perpetrated against the West and Westerners, in the name of Islam. But it certainly is an important piece to understanding why many Muslims feel as they do...a piece we too conveniently ignore sometimes.

[Barb Bouldrey]

What do you mean by "thus, the definition of "christian" becomes a relative term?"

Muslims that have a high moral code are not Christians. Drinking and smoking does not mean you are NOT a Christian.(I KNOW we Nazarenes do not always believe that, but it is true) Only having sins forgiven by Christ makes us Christians.

Christian should never be a "relative term." It is black and white truth. A Christian is one whose sins have been forgiven and has accepted Christ as his/her Savior. It is not by works we are saved or moral codes, but by faith.

Barb

[William Hunter]

Very well said, Barb. Yes, Christ died for all of us humans, but Jesus also said there is only one way to the Father and that is through Him by way of forgiveness of sin. Islam, like most false religions/deceptions of Satan to lead people away from Christ, is a works religion. There is nothing of grace to be found in it. Muslims are no more evil than anyother person, though there are those here in their sacasim, try to make some of the others of us out to have said that when that just is not fact; but they are, like those of any other religion except Christianity, deceived and not under the saving grace of God. Thus, we Christians have the same mission as Jesus did when He left heaven to come here on a rescue mission, to lead those not Christian to Christ.

I find it interesting that if Islam is so great, why do Muslim countries deny any teaching other than Islam and persecute and kill Christian converts in their country? What are they afraid of? It seems to me that if Islam was so great that they would not have to worry about such a deception as Islam being fully accepted; but it is not. The Christ of this universe has a drawing power that leads poeple out of these deceptions.



What do you mean by "thus, the definition of "christian" becomes a relative term?"

Muslims that have a high moral code are not Christians. Drinking and smoking does not mean you are NOT a Christian.(I KNOW we Nazarenes do not always believe that, but it is true) Only having sins forgiven by Christ makes us Christians.

Christian should never be a "relative term." It is black and white truth. A Christian is one whose sins have been forgiven and has accepted Christ as his/her Savior. It is not by works we are saved or moral codes, but by faith.

Barb

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Very well said, Barb. Yes, Christ died for all of us humans, but Jesus also said there is only one way to the Father and that is through Him by way of forgiveness of sin. Islam, like most false religions/deceptions of Satan to lead people away from Christ, is a works religion. There is nothing of grace to be found in it. Muslims are no more evil than anyother person, though there are those here in their sacasim, try to make some of the others of us out to have said that when that just is not fact; but they are, like those of any other religion except Christianity, deceived and not under the saving grace of God. Thus, we Christians have the same mission as Jesus did when He left heaven to come here on a rescue mission, to lead those not Christian to Christ.

I agree with you completely on the above paragraph with the exception of the statement I boldfaced. I'm not singling you out specifically, but the truth is there are "some" here who speak of Muslims as being more evil than other non-believers. (Not "evil" in the strictest theological sense where they would say we are all sinners, etc. But more "evil" in their actual attitudes and actions.) For example, I've not heard anyone here say that Jehovah's Witnesses "hate" the rest of us and would like kill us. I've heard it said more than once about Muslims.

I find it interesting that if Islam is so great, .... It seems to me that if Islam was so great...

Who said Islam is great? Certainly not me. I simply think we should view them with compassion as, "harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd (Mat. 9:36)." Instead we view them as "the enemy" whom we should be afraid of. Yes, there are many of them who are out to get us, but we can't clump all Muslims into that category.

The Christ of this universe has a drawing power that leads poeple out of these deceptions.

Yes he does! That power is love (shown by his sacrifice). We are his body. We are his ambassadors. We are to love as he did. It's hard to love and express that love if you are fearful and suspicious of every Muslim you ever meet.

Wilson

[Gina Stevenson]

Lets go back to the ole NazNet word discussion. There was a time where if you asked for a *napkin* at a McDonalds in Canada - they would think you were speaking of a sanitary napkin.


Right ... think it was the first time I was having lunch at some friend's house in Windsor, and helping set the table that she told me where the "serviettes" were that I could put on, too. "huh!?" THAT -- the French for the sort of "napkin" one uses while eating. ;)

[William Hunter]

Wilson, I do not know of any JW's who go around blowing up people, but some Muslims do all around the world. That is why it is said of Muslims. If others were doing it, we'd day the same about them. Come on, don't confuse the issue here.



I agree with you completely on the above paragraph with the exception of the statement I boldfaced. I'm not singling you out specifically, but the truth is there are "some" here who speak of Muslims as being more evil than other non-believers. (Not "evil" in the strictest theological sense where they would say we are all sinners, etc. But more "evil" in their actual attitudes and actions.) For example, I've not heard anyone here say that Jehovah's Witnesses "hate" the rest of us and would like kill us. I've heard it said more than once about Muslims.



Who said Islam is great? Certainly not me. I simply think we should view them with compassion as, "harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd (Mat. 9:36)." Instead we view them as "the enemy" whom we should be afraid of. Yes, there are many of them who are out to get us, but we can't clump all Muslims into that category.

Tell me, can you tell which Muslims are peaceful and which are not by just looking or listening to them? We live in a world where we hear many people sho are convincing liars until they then do something to prove themselves to be something else. Do you just want to willy-nilly give banket acceptance of all Muslims, or is there room to be at least cautiously skeptical? Yes, we must do all we can to reach them for Christ, but that does not mean throwing a good grasp of current reality out of the window. No where do I see Christ doing that, nor do I see Him saying to. He told us to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. That does not mean I have to live life by throwing all caution out of the window. I see a urologist whose name is Mohammod Tibib. Yes, he is an Arab, and so is his wife, Virginia. His wife leads the doctors Bible study at our hosp., and they are praying for his conversion. He is nothing religiously. They are wonderful and highly skilled in their professions, but that does not mean I am going to feel as open with other Arabs as I am with them. I will continue to be cautious until I know that there is little reason for being so. And I think that is entirely fitting for a Christian to be. Do have some kind of fool proof method of detecting which Muslim has and evil intent and which do not? I think not, thus, being cautious is a measure of wisdom. Again, we do not hear of any other people group doing such horrorable autrocities all over the world, except Muslims. I am ready to give full and open acceptance as i do with many Muslims I know, but I will continue to be cautious of those I do not know.

We hear much from Muslim countries about how great an Islamic state is. That is what I was referring to, not that anyone here said it. If their countries under Islamic rule were so great, why are they afraid of other religious beliefs?

Yes he does! That power is love (shown by his sacrifice). We are his body. We are his ambassadors. We are to love as he did. It's hard to love and express that love if you are fearful and suspicious of every Muslim you ever meet.

Wilson, the world has a right to be fearful when so many Muslims buy into this business of blowing up innocent people and train their children to do so from an early age. That kind of evil deserves much more than just a glance. Suicide bombers and IED's can be used anywhere in the world. I think it is just a matter of time until we see it happen here. Yes, there is much room for a cautious fear of Islamists. No one else we hear of is doing this stuff on a daily basis.
Wilson

[Wilson L. Deaton]

... but some Muslims do all around the world. That is why it is said of Muslims... {boldfacing added by Wilson}

William,

My whole point and complaint is based on the truth of your statement I've quoted here. We take the action of "some Muslims" and then use language like "of Muslims." Such language impacts the way we view and treat an individual Muslim who may very well be a Muslim who doesn't hate us or want to kill us.

Wilson

[William Hunter]

Wilson, since it seems about 99.9% of all terrorism comes out of the Islamic community, and since so many terrorists are Arab, thus looking very much similar in some ways, can you tell me an absolute way of telling which Arab/Muslim is not a terrorist? I do not think do. So am I supporsed to let down my guard, through caution to the wind, and be fully open to any Muslim that comes along? I think not. I'm sorry, but to me your post would indicate that we should just drop all our safety procedures as a nation, open our arms in wonderful good faith and acceptance and let just any Arab/terrorist in who wants to come. If that is not what you are advocating you are going to have to be very precise in just what you do mean and explain it.

I do not like lumping the words Arab/terrorist/Muslim together, but how do we tell the difference by looking? I will remain very cautious until I feel reasonably comfortable around a person of this culture. It is then I can feel I can drop the caution level to a large degree and develop a good open relationship. My wife can tell you that to this day I have learned how to pick out a Vietnamese person from other orientals. I spent almost 15 months in the jungle with them. It was a long time after coming how that upon seeing such a person out in public with no forewarning, I would take action to take cover. I am still cautious around such people today, though much more in control of my reaction than I was for many months when I returned home. I have not yet gotten over the night mares at times which include their faces behind the guns they used to try to kill me. I still hear the screams of the severely wounded and dying at night a times, on the receiving end of those rounds fired by those people. I one place of ministry, I had a chance to build good relationship with Vietnamese people and work with them to build the Kingdom, but at no time did that reduce an immediate inner reaction to those of that group I did not know.

You have never had to have your life on the line as a people group tried to take your life. It has an extremely strong effect on you, for a long time to come. And there is no way to tell the difference between a North or South Vietnamese by just looking if they are dressed similarly. There is no way to tell the difference between an Arab, an Arab Muslim, and Arab Muslim terrorist, by just looking, so I will remain cautious first. YOu have no arguement to change that unless you have a way to tell the difference by just looking.





William,

My whole point and complaint is based on the truth of your statement I've quoted here. We take the action of "some Muslims" and then use language like "of Muslims." Such language impacts the way we view and treat an individual Muslim who may very well be a Muslim who doesn't hate us or want to kill us.

Wilson

[Ron Davis]

Wilson, since it seems about 99.9% of all terrorism comes out of the Islamic community, and since so many terrorists are Arab, thus looking very much similar in some ways, can you tell me an absolute way of telling which Arab/Muslim is not a terrorist? I do not think do. So am I supporsed to let down my guard, through caution to the wind, and be fully open to any Muslim that comes along? I think not.

Don't trust people of Arabic descent, they might be terrorists.
Don't trust black people, they may be violent criminals.
Don't trust Hispanics, they may be illegal immigrants.
Don't trust gay people, they may have AIDS.
Don't trust scientists, they don't believe in God.
Don't trust Christians, they are hypocrites.
Don't trust anyone over 30. Why? Beats me.

Such attitudes gave me the opportunity to hire a young man that graduated first in his class with a degree in Computer Science. He completed hs studies in 3 years while supporting a family and maintaining a perfect GPA. He couldn't find a job. He does hate to fly anywhere. He gets weary of being searched at evey security checkpoint.

I don't konw how to live life where my first instinct is misturst. But then I am one year too young to have served in Viet Nam. I don't believe we fully understand the cost of war. The visible injuries seem to be minor compared to the invisibile ones.

[William Hunter]

Ron,
You are taking this much farther than you should with the use of gross generalizations. We are talking about one people group out of which comes most of the terrorism in this world. This group within the larger group has been very plain about their hunger and thirst to kill---anyone---and especially Americans. They kill their own people, innocent Iraqi civilians. Arafat did the same to his people for yrs. using them as pawns for his political agenda, all the while having no interest in truely helping the lot of the Palestinian. Don't try to confuse the conversation here. I have asked if there is a way to tell if someone of a particular culture is a terrorist when the terrorist looks so much like everyone else in his/her people group. Until there is, I reserve the to exercise a bit of caution when around the Arab/Muslim/Muslim terrorist. I do not like lumping all that together, but can you tell me how we can know for sure what we are dealing with when we are facing someone we do not know at all? I do not think so.

Do not mistakingly assign my caution as a wound from war. Maybe some here need some exposure to a very real world instead of living merely in their safe little neighborhoods and circle of friends. The current war is like no war this world has ever seen before. No on knows how to deal with it fully. We are learning as we go. Because it is a new kind of war, mistakes will be made, but there are many wonderful improvements being made, even in Iraq if the news media was honest and would tell the whole story instead of trying to slant it for their own agenda's sake. Because this is a new war, and because most of the terrorism comes out of one primary people group, I think wisdom demands some caution for a bit until we find out how to tell the difference between innocent people and terrorists by brief encounters.




Don't trust people of Arabic descent, they might be terrorists.
Don't trust black people, they may be violent criminals.
Don't trust Hispanics, they may be illegal immigrants.
Don't trust gay people, they may have AIDS.
Don't trust scientists, they don't believe in God.
Don't trust Christians, they are hypocrites.
Don't trust anyone over 30. Why? Beats me.

Such attitudes gave me the opportunity to hire a young man that graduated first in his class with a degree in Computer Science. He completed hs studies in 3 years while supporting a family and maintaining a perfect GPA. He couldn't find a job. He does hate to fly anywhere. He gets weary of being searched at evey security checkpoint.

I don't konw how to live life where my first instinct is misturst. But then I am one year too young to have served in Viet Nam. I don't believe we fully understand the cost of war. The visible injuries seem to be minor compared to the invisibile ones.

[Terri Knoll]

I never experienced any "hate" crimes while I served in Germany. It was an almost universally positive experience. I was there three different times, for a total of a little over four years.

The "hate" crimes that took place while I was there were perpetrated by the Red Army Faction...descendants of the Bader-Meinhof terrorist group. And they pretty much hated everyone who wasn't one of them, and blew up a lot of stuff. They tried to blow up the US Commander-in-Chief, Europe (CINCEUR) while I was there, but that was more anti-NATO than anti-American. We just happened to have the largest NATO contingent in Germany, so we got targeted more than the Germans, Brits, or Canadians. But all in all, I'd say the RAF was pretty much "equal opportunity haters".

As for the French, I'm not sure what qualifies as a "hate crime" in some people's vocabulary; but my experience with the French was that they hate everyone who isn't French. It wasn't so much "anti-American" hate, as it was, "You're not French so we hate you."

Anyhow, back on point: While I was in Europe (also did some extended TDY in Belgium), I never felt "singled out" for any "hate" crimes or prejudicial treatment simply because I was an American.

I will say, however, that watching how Americans conducted themselves overseas, it really wasn't hard for me to understand why some folks don't like us. Stereotypes become stereotypes because there is an element of truth to them. The "ugly American tourist" is a classic example. We get up in arms because Hispanics expect us to learn their language and cater to them, yet when we travel, we expect everyone else in the world to speak English. We think that if we speak slower and louder, they will understand (yes, this is not just in the movies).

We make no allowances for cultural differences - if you've ever used a rest stop toilet in France or Italy, you know what I'm talking about; and then we talk about how backward other cultures are. If you've ever watched an American tourist try to go shopping in France (other than the tourist trap places) in the middle of an afternoon, and then curse the locals because they have the audacity to close up shop in the middle of the day, you know what I mean.

This is way off the topic of interpreting the Koran, so I'll stop now.


I LOVED MY TIME IN EUROPE! I too was blessed to be there several times, and I don't want my words to be misunderstood :basic05
I understood what was going on in the hatred of Americans (most of the towns I visited had very large NO AMERICANS ALLOWED signs *remember this was when we bombed Libya) and I still understand, and I DIDN"T let that stop me from going on the economy. I just kept it quiet that I was american. I loved the people and the shopping! I had several close friends, spoke the language fluently and enjoyed life! I only was in one altercation and a very large handsome ;) german got me and my friends to safety. (bad company concert of all things! lol) ok ok now I am way off topic! :eek:

I really do understand the Passion that people have when the love of Jesus Christ is threatened. real or perceived. and I will always have that hope that all of Gods children can play nice....in fact I cling to that Hope!

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Wilson, ...., am I supporsed to let down my guard, through caution to the wind, and be fully open to any Muslim that comes along? I think not. I'm sorry, but to me your post would indicate that we should just drop all our safety procedures as a nation, open our arms in wonderful good faith and acceptance and let just any Arab/terrorist in who wants to come. If that is not what you are advocating you are going to have to be very precise in just what you do mean and explain it.


I'm not suggesting that we stop tracking suspected terrorists and those with ties to know terrorists, etc. I'm not suggesting we stop checking passports, x-raying luggage at the airport, etc. I saying that when we're in a doctors office an a Arab comes in and sits next to us, or when an Arab rents the apartment next door, or gets hired to work in our office, that we assume a position of acceptance and compassion.

.... I spent almost 15 months in the jungle with them..... I have not yet gotten over the night mares at times which include their faces behind the guns they used to try to kill me. I still hear the screams of the severely wounded and dying at night a times, on the receiving end of those rounds fired by those people.... You have never had to have your life on the line as a people group tried to take your life. It has an extremely strong effect on you, for a long time to come.

I confess that you and I come from very different life experiences in this regard. I am sorry that you have had to go through what you went through. I won't pretend that I understand. I know enough to know that I don't and can't.

.... I will remain cautious first. You have no argument to change that unless you have a way to tell the difference by just looking.

I don't.

Wilson

[Ron Davis]

How much more of a gross generalization is there than to classify all Arabs as potential terrorists? Since the basis of your argument is that you can't tell by looking I must conclude you advise "caution" around Americans of Arabic descent. I have trouble seeing this as different than when we interred Japanese-Americans during World War II. I'm sure we were just being cautious then too.

While you are making a reference to Muslims it seems apparent to me you mean anyone of Arabic descent.

I'm sorry I attributed your feeliings in this matter to "wounds from war". I must have missed your point in bringing it up.

Ron,
You are taking this much farther than you should with the use of gross generalizations. We are talking about one people group out of which comes most of the terrorism in this world. This group within the larger group has been very plain about their hunger and thirst to kill---anyone---and especially Americans. They kill their own people, innocent Iraqi civilians. Arafat did the same to his people for yrs. using them as pawns for his political agenda, all the while having no interest in truely helping the lot of the Palestinian. Don't try to confuse the conversation here. I have asked if there is a way to tell if someone of a particular culture is a terrorist when the terrorist looks so much like everyone else in his/her people group. Until there is, I reserve the to exercise a bit of caution when around the Arab/Muslim/Muslim terrorist.