CotN Manual

[Jeremy D. Scott]

For those who are members of the Church of the Nazarene, how much of the Manual do you fully and whole-heartedly agree with?

[Hans Deventer]

I voted less than 50%. Not because I think that more than 50% is wrong, but because I don't agree with the way the Manual is set up. It wants to regulate way too much.

[Dave McClung]

I voted less than 50%. Not because I think that more than 50% is wrong, but because I don't agree with the way the Manual is set up. It wants to regulate way too much.

I certainly agree with Hans that the Manual is too restrictive on local procedures.

I would support the idea of reducing the Manual to Doctrine, and the top level of organization, and Clergy regulations. Those things should apply to all Regions and require a 2/3 majority to change.

There should then be a Regional Manual that contains the organizational structure and procedures. The Regional Manual would be adopted by the Regions and would allow flexibility for Regional differences.

For the U.S., the two books would result in basically the same substance as the current Manual. I would guess that some Regions would adopt remarkably different structures.

[Hans Deventer]

Dave, that is exactly what I mean.

[Gary Swartzlander]

I also voted for less than 50%. As our church has grown, the portions of the manual relating to local churches have become much less practical. I concur that it is much to restrictive on the local church.

[Ray Hendrix]

I voted for 50% or less too. I spent too many years in the regions and became very aware of how some items in the MAN UAL needed contextualization.

[Brad Mercer]

I agree fully with all the doctrinal and ethical parts. I think it could do with way less regulation of local government/structure/organization, but I'm willing to live with that stuff. I've been fortunate that where local organizational rules get in the way of starting a new church, our DS was always willing to look the other way and let us get a Nazarene church established.

[Roland Hearn]

I too think that the regulations are getting way out of hand in terms of local structure. I also think the general rules are terrific but the special rules are only mariginally better than worthless. I think it reflects something about us that we have to have them. The truth is that where the local church is thriving on the presence of the Holy Spirit and love and grace are reigning supreme people are led to the place of living the kind of lives we see refected in the special rules. In a church where that is not the case our problems are much greater than what the special rules can address.
I'd be happy just to rip them out of the manual.

[Hans Deventer]

I too think that the regulations are getting way out of hand in terms of local structure. I also think the general rules are terrific but the special rules are only mariginally better than worthless. I think it reflects something about us that we have to have them. The truth is that where the local church is thriving on the presence of the Holy Spirit and love and grace are reigning supreme people are led to the place of living the kind of lives we see refected in the special rules. In a church where that is not the case our problems are much greater than what the special rules can address.
I'd be happy just to rip them out of the manual.

I told you once before that I really love you, didn't I? I'm going to save this quote!

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I too think that the regulations are getting way out of hand in terms of local structure. I also think the general rules are terrific but the special rules are only mariginally better than worthless. I think it reflects something about us that we have to have them. The truth is that where the local church is thriving on the presence of the Holy Spirit and love and grace are reigning supreme people are led to the place of living the kind of lives we see refected in the special rules. In a church where that is not the case our problems are much greater than what the special rules can address.
I'd be happy just to rip them out of the manual.

For a lengthy and interesting discussion surrounding this, check out the following blog discussion:
Let's Kill the Covenant of Christian Conduct (http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/2006/06/lets-kill-covenant-of-christian.html)
http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/2006/06/lets-kill-covenant-of-christian.html

[William Hunter]

I whole-heartedly agree with Dave's post about what should be included in the Manual. Our Manual seems so very prohibiative of church growth at times and yet that does not match all the "go more and do more" demands that crosses my desk each month from dist. and general church. Maybe one is breeding the other without any understanding of the contextualization required in different areas of our country, or even in the various groups reached by different churches in the same community. There is little encouragement about growing Christ within compared to the demands to go more and do more, and I guess this stuff does find its base in the manual. Just being busy has nothing to do with church growth spiritual or numerically. There are several peeves I have on this subject, as do many of us it seems from the posts here, so I do try to ignore much of the nonsense that really has nothing to do with winning the lost to Christ, and put our focus there.
It seems to work here for we are reaching many unchurched and dechurched people and that seems to be gaining momentum in the few months. I have focused on reaching unchurched people and growing our Christians in Christ, and to do that we have left off some of the things we are supposed to be doing, but things that would prove fruitless in structure and ministry.
We have even taken an Biblical approach to budgets. I cannot sell budgets just because the money is "expected" to be there. We have gone to sending in each week, 10% of the gross that comes in Sunday on budgets, plus having our Faith Promise plan. We are farther ahead this year in budget payments than we have ever been, and we've done pretty well. After the budgets are paid in full, we will send the tithe to a new Nazarene CTM in our area, and to the work of a couple of our Nazarene missionaries that have come here to our church. I can sell this approach for it is soundly Biblical and it is easy to sell to my people who have no church background, or the dechruched who come after being out of a church for some time, often over financial issues in the church or church politics when what they wanted was a church that focused on Christ and getting people to Him.
You take some heat when you do not buy into everything without any questioning, etc., but that is OK; for my church is growing with souls saved, and souls growing in maturity in Christ.

[Brad Mercer]

Jeremy,

The original 1908 manual was reprinted in 1983 as a 75th anniversary observance of the 1908 Pilot Point merger. I have a copy of that manual. I was surprised to discover that, though the wording of the Special Rules in 1908 was even stronger than in more recent decades, especially regarding prohibition, the name of the section wasn't Covenant of Christian Conduct, or even Special Rules. It was Special Advices.

I'd be okay with something that helps people think through for themselves the implications of certain common behaviors that may be contrary to love, with a title like Special Advices. The problem with the current section is that, no matter what they change the name to, it's still presented as rules, rather than as an invitation to think and process and grow in ones understanding, love and therefore, ethical behavior. When they get through defending each rule, the bottom line is that it's still a rule. Post-moderns will do the right thing if you give them room to reach the right conclusions, instead of just handing them the prescriptions. Moderns are happier with a clear set of duties and structures. I think a post-modern Nazarene very much experiences the same God and wants to produce the same kind of Christian as the modern Nazarene, but the manual reflects modernism.

Brad


For a lengthy and interesting discussion surrounding this, check out the following blog discussion:
Let's Kill the Covenant of Christian Conduct (http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/2006/06/lets-kill-covenant-of-christian.html)
http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/2006/06/lets-kill-covenant-of-christian.html

[Barb Bouldrey]

With an international church and then churches of varied sizes it is impossible to have a church government that fits everyone's situation.

I too agree totally with the doctrine of the church. I also believe we have to have basic structure in government for all departments on all levels. BASIC

One of the things I have observed in my limited area of experience is that churches and people do what they want to no matter what the Manual says. After the Articles of Faith, the rest of the book might as well be titled, " Some General Suggestions If You Want to Comply."

With the WEF I urge my local churches to make missionaries real to their congregations and make the WEF the life support of real live missionaries.....not just another budget to pay. I try to educate them in workshops and mailings as to what the WEF is and where those dollars go and help them see how important it is to missionaries. The WEF is not about us...it is about MISSIONARIES....REAL PEOPLE.

If we could get our churches to see that the pensions budget is about people: retire pastors and the college budget is about people: our future church leaders it is easier to get them to give.

We need to put faces to our dollars.

I do not agree with every detail of the Manual government, but I can live with it.

Barb

[Hans Deventer]

One of the things I have observed in my limited area of experience is that churches and people do what they want to no matter what the Manual says. After the Articles of Faith, the rest of the book might as well be titled, " Some General Suggestions If You Want to Comply."

Indeed. Now Barb, you know it, I know it, I'm just so surprised to see that the General Assembly doesn't and massive amounts of money are spent each 4 years (and it is the same if it would be 5 or 6 years) to have a 1000 people gather in the USA to change rules that people only follow if it suits them anyway.

I really wonder how we can get that message through. But I have no idea. If I learned something during 3 General Assemblies, it is that I have no influence whatsoever and I still don't have a clue how decisions are being made :basic04

[Billy Cox]

I also voted for less than 50%. As our church has grown, the portions of the manual relating to local churches have become much less practical. I concur that it is much to restrictive on the local church.

Reading your post Gary, it occurred to me that many of the local church procedures are written in recognition that most Nazarene churches would almost fit into a good-sized family room.

What would happen if local church procedures were written in terms of what churches can/should become rather than simply embracing the status quo?

[Billy Cox]

For those who are members of the Church of the Nazarene, how much of the Manual do you fully and whole-heartedly agree with?

I voted 90%...of the stuff that I don't already ignore.

[William Hunter]

Brad, you are right. I know there are a few here who do not get it when we talk aobut modern and post-modern issues, but there are very clear differences that must be addressed if we are to reach post-moderns for Christ. They absolutely will not respond to a bunch of rules that do not address the issues of life they are trying to deal with. Even our approach to budgets is offensive to them. You should hear the post-moderns on my board when we talk about the current budgets and the fact that a church is considered a good church, and a pastor a good pastor, if they did not show much loss but got that money in. They just flat out rebel against that approach. So what works? As I stated in another post in this thread, they are very interested in what the Bible says, sound doctrine, intimate relationship with Christ and the extended family of the church. When I began to focus on budgets and dropping the nonsense of deductions and this and that, and approached simply as a 10% tithe on the gross income of the church, they bought into that right away.
When I have a membership class, we focus on the Statement of Belief, our mission and vision as a local church and our responsiblity to reach a lost world, spiritual gifts, that members are active members and not bench warmers, etc., I get people highly committed to Christ, the Great Commission, the local church, etc. If I tried to sell the special "rules" and all the other "rules," I could forget about post-moderns joining the church---which would put us in a death cycle as a congregation. How do we ever get the "good 'ol boys" club that seem to run Gen. Assm. to begin to understand what our culture needs from the church, rathe than expecting those who makes up cultures to adjust to the rules. They won't. Just looking at how we do ministry in most of our churches in the USA, Canada, and Europe ought to get our attn. Most of the congregations in these countries are dying. We now live in the 4th largest unchurched country in the world. I wonder when we as a denomination will wake up and stop loading people with rules they cannot keep (sounds like Pharisees all over again), and focus on those things the actually bring people to Christ. Our Statement of Belief is wonderful and I hope it does not change in its substance, but we need to put everything else on the table and stop trying to ride dead horses. Instead, we need to dismount some of our dead horses and join Christ in what He is doing in our world.



Jeremy,

The original 1908 manual was reprinted in 1983 as a 75th anniversary observance of the 1908 Pilot Point merger. I have a copy of that manual. I was surprised to discover that, though the wording of the Special Rules in 1908 was even stronger than in more recent decades, especially regarding prohibition, the name of the section wasn't Covenant of Christian Conduct, or even Special Rules. It was Special Advices.

I'd be okay with something that helps people think through for themselves the implications of certain common behaviors that may be contrary to love, with a title like Special Advices. The problem with the current section is that, no matter what they change the name to, it's still presented as rules, rather than as an invitation to think and process and grow in ones understanding, love and therefore, ethical behavior. When they get through defending each rule, the bottom line is that it's still a rule. Post-moderns will do the right thing if you give them room to reach the right conclusions, instead of just handing them the prescriptions. Moderns are happier with a clear set of duties and structures. I think a post-modern Nazarene very much experiences the same God and wants to produce the same kind of Christian as the modern Nazarene, but the manual reflects modernism.

Brad

[Barb Bouldrey]

I guess I have a hard time seeing the attitude that all the church is is keeping rules and paying budgets. I am alarmed when I see any individual who thinks that is the main focus of our denomination.

We have pastored on 2 districts and 6 churches. John has never pushed rules or budgets as the main goals of the church. John has always seen the General Budget as the lifeline of our missionaries, not some awful threat that hangs over his head. And we have not always been able to pay that in full.

John has always had the idea that you do the best you can and when one year ends you just start over for the new year, even if all budgets were not paid in full.

John has never pushed rules and budgets from the pulpit. He preaches being right with God and living a holy life.

Over the years we have met pastors who started their ministries with a negative attitude toward budgets and rules. Everywhere they go they take that negative attitude with them.

I sat in a seminar with a professor at a DP's Gathering in Nashville 4 years ago who talked about reaching the post modern person. He really taught me about making missions a CAUSE and putting faces to missions. He taught us that post modern people will give to causes and faces and need to understand the importance of each thing they give to.

Things like Alabaster and Work & Witness are visible results of their giving.

Budgets need to make sense to people. And it is possible to promote it until it does make sense.

I truly believe that the concept of a church giving 10% tithe to meet these budgets is the very best plan. I wish the entire denomination would adopt that concept.

I know it would mean some cutbacks in some areas of administration and business entertainment on the general level, but it is possible.

When we "kick against the pricks" no one is happy.

There is no easy answer.

I guess I can feel blessed to have been on the Missouri District for 30 years. I do not ever remember John being put down or made to feel as if he is a failure when our churches did not pay their budgets in full. That reflects on the district superintendents we have had.

And, I have never felt we were pushed to enforce rules. That is laughable. How can a denomination force us to enforce rules? Why would we even try? Maybe 40 years ago in the age of legalism we could, but no more. Thank the Lord.

I doubt that the majority of our congregations have ever read the Manual and do not even care what it says.

The overwhelming majority of our time is spent on getting people saved and helping them stay saved.

Enforce the rules? How would we even approach doing that in this day?

Barb

[William Hunter]

Barb, even though you do not see, it does not mean that rules, rule. Any time you do not play by the DS's agenda, you can kiss any chance for a better church goodbye if you want to move. Again and again, I hear DAB's come down hard on churches/pastors, who really do try to get all the budgets paid, all the extra 31 or so offerings we are to take, taken, be at every mtg. required of you, etc. Your family does not matter. I've taken heat for that one over the yrs. because I always put my family before my church and my district. And both girls love Christ, are married to Nazarene pastors, and now talk aobut what a joy it was to live in a parsonage. What amazes me is that they talk about the times they knew I took some heat for not living by some other person's agenda on the district, and was there for them. That made a lasting and good impression on them and has helped them love the church as well as serve our Lord.

We hear all the time about getting that money in, getting those things done we would relate to rules, etc., etc. And the fact that only afew churches in the USA, Canada, and Europe are growing via convertg growth is huge testimony that we have gotten the focus on the wrong things. I agree with Dave that much of Manual is a hindrance to church growth and binds up creativity. The fastest growing churches on our district have all stayed with our Statement of Belief, but they are doing things other than what the Manual designs for us to do. The proof in is the pudding so to speak. A good yr. of showing only 3-5 converts and new church members tells us that we are spending alot of money, time, effort, etc., with not much to show for it. In fact, at our Dist. NMI Conv. we were told that is takes 85 Christians to win one person to Christ in one yr. That is absolutely huge testimony that what we are doing is not working. Something has to change.

Because someone like me balks at some things does not mean that we have fought "rules and budgets" over the yrs. That just is not the case. I have always been, and will always be a team player, but I reserve the right as a highly committed Christian and one who gives heavily to the church in time, money, prayer, etc., to ask hard questions (and expect anwers instead of being told to be a good little pastor, keep my mouth shut and get the money in), and share a viewpoint about what I see needs to be changed. If we cannot do that, then the church is nothing but a political organization, long removed from what Christ is doing in our world and in a death cycle; and that is exactly where most of the churches in tghe USA, Canada, and Europe are. Something HAS to change. It does not work to do the old things harder. That just does not work. We need to put everything but our belief statement on the table and take a hard look at the fact we are riding a dead horse in too many areas and are as dead as the horse. Again, the changes my leadership team has made to reach post-moderns and the huge wave of Baby-boomers about to retire, is proof that it works. In fact, the two largest churches on our dist. and the two fastest growing churches on our district, do the very same thing. While most churches settle of miniscule improvements and numbers of converts, I just do not care to do that anymore. The them NMI theme of "Bring the Cross Home" should make us question everything we do, and are not doing, within the beliefv statement that we have which is excellent. We have too many lost people to reach to keep riding dead horses and a huge number of rules that bind our hands rather than open the doors of ministry creativity.
I have a copy of the 1915 Penticostal Church of the Nazarene Manual. The belief statement has not changed that much, but the number of "rules" has grown to such huge proportion that then, that it is a wonder that we can to anything. My Nazarene history tells me of operating by a belief statement and freeing churches to create ministries of all kinds---be creative, rather than try to fit into some mold that just not relate to the area's culture in which you minister. We need to make some serious changes in our Manaul after our Statement of Belief. If we do not, I wonder how many yrs. it will take before we are totally spiritually dead like some denominations seem to be, who go thorugh motions but have nothing to show for it, or become open to such things as accepting gay pastors in order to just have numbers rather than bringing people to a life transformation in Christ. Some change is needed and some "old school" thinking needs to be pitched and gotten rid of.

[Kim Hersey]

Hey, I'm on the wrong side of ordination to vote in this poll ;)

but thanks for posting it! I've learned much by reading...

Kim

[Barb Bouldrey]

Again, I say that I am blessed to be on this district for 30 years. I am thankful that our district does not come down hard on pastors or our DAB(which John has been on for 14 years) does not come down on pastors.

I do know there are districts like that, and as Bill says, some of you have experienced that. I am sorry that there are D.S.'s and DAB's that make pastors feel that way.

Being a delegate to General Assembly and being in those committee meetings as well as listening to business on the GA floor, I have picked up the idea that for years our budget system has been imperfect.

Having worked on the district level I have dealt with pastors from large churches and small when it concerns the WEF. Some of them feel pressured by their OWN minds to pay this in full. Some want to pay it in full because they really want to, but they cannot and feel badly about it. Every now and then a pastor calls me to gripe about the budget being so high.

And, yes, even on this good district that does not pressure their pastors there are a few who hate the budget system and buck it. One I have known for 30 years. He has never liked it, never will and lets it be known.

I am sure that some of our general leaders would not be pleased with me, but I always tell our pastors to just do the best they can and when the year ends, just start over. As long as they tried and did the best they could.

One pastor on my NMI council has had a devastating year financially. His church could only pay 1/3 of their assigned WEF. He really felt badly about this. We talked about it two weeks after the church year ended. He still owed $11,000 and did not see how he could ever pay it by convention day. I assured him that I understood what had happened there and I advised him to end the church year, shake off the dust, and apply his energy toward the new year when things would improve.

53 of our 65 churches paid their WEF in full and paid all of their budgets in full. That is a great percentage in my mind.

We can be team players and still gripe about how the game is played. And I know some really good players who are really good gripers. LOL

Barb

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Well, I was thinking in terms of the US region.

[Terri Knoll]

I agree fully with all the doctrinal and ethical parts. I think it could do with way less regulation of local government/structure/organization, but I'm willing to live with that stuff.

ditto. (I used to hate when oldtimers told me not to worry my pretty little head about that stuff, but that's exactly my feelings now lol)
most of my "ministry" is outside of the church anyway. and alot of you know what the "manuals" mean there :basic03 but I choose the Naz denom because of tradition. simply put, a place to pay my tithe (that I TRUST is being used for the very reason this denom was founded) and a watering hole for my soul. and I HAVE to trust those that made the way. and are still making the way whether it change the rules yada yada and on and on.
as people find Jesus and we work toward spiritual things, I DO invite them to my church. (the people are loving and caring etc.) more often then not they choose another church but that's ok. the reward is not for me, nor for my church, nor for my denom...the reward is for them. and that's perfectly ok with me!
I do however love to see conversation going on, because I Do trust ya'll to take care of these things...thank you

[William Hunter]

Jeremy, thank you so much for posting this website. I had a few minutes to begin reading this afternoon and I was pleased. I found a place where people try to discuss, question, etc., and hold intelligent conversation without simplistic comments being made in return, having your personal integrity questioned, etc. I do not know if I'll join in but I bookmarked it so that I can return to the site and continue to read. It was very refreshing. I ofund people who obviously love the church but are not afraid to openly question some things within the church. Even though I had only abut 15 minutes this afternoon, I'll return for it was a refreshing time of reading and thinking. Thank you.




[




QUOTE=Jeremy D. Scott;47183]
For a lengthy and interesting discussion surrounding this, check out the following blog discussion:
Let's Kill the Covenant of Christian Conduct (http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/2006/06/lets-kill-covenant-of-christian.html)
http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/2006/06/lets-kill-covenant-of-christian.html

[/QUOTE]