Is Tiger the greatest champion?

[Roland Hearn]

I'm just about to head off to work on a beautiful spring morning in Brisbane. Tiger is coming up the 12th and unless he breaks a leg in a bunker he will gain his 12th major. I thought an Adam Scott might have a chance at one stage but Tiger is just running away @ five shots in the lead. What an amazing effort. He has never failed to win in a major when coming into the final round in the lead. That is an amazing statistic. Where he ranks in terms of the world stage in all sports I guess will be argued until someone else can dominate a sport like he does golf but in my opinion if he isn't one of the greatest champions of all time he is in the top five.
My top five in no order:
Tiger Woods
Babe Ruth
Don Bradman
Bjorn Borg
Wally Lewis

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Tiger Woods is indeed incredible and perhaps will be the most dominating sports figure of all-time. I love watching him.

Your list interests me though. Certainly geographics would play a part in any list of "greatest champions." I have no idea how that list can't be topped by Michael Jordan though. Tiger could eclipse him (and soon). But Michael Jordan in my mind is the most dominating athlete of all time, greatest athlete in his respective sport, and the greatest champion.

(Roger Federer might warrant some consideration as well.)

[Dana Grant]

Tiger Woods is indeed incredible and perhaps will be the most dominating sports figure of all-time. I love watching him.

Your list interests me though. Certainly geographics would play a part in any list of "greatest champions." I have no idea how that list can't be topped by Michael Jordan though. Tiger could eclipse him (and soon). But Michael Jordan in my mind is the most dominating athlete of all time, greatest athlete in his respective sport, and the greatest champion.

(Roger Federer might warrant some consideration as well.)



When I read Roland's list, Michael Jordan's name immediately came to my mind, as well. I agree with you, Jeremy!

[Jeremy D. Scott]

After posting, here's an article I happened upon reflecting on this very idea:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=2555909

[Gina Stevenson]

Tiger Woods is indeed incredible and perhaps will be the most dominating sports figure of all-time. I love watching him.

Yes, this non-golf-watcher has even watched him. ;)

Your list interests me though. Certainly geographics would play a part in any list of "greatest champions." I have no idea how that list can't be topped by Michael Jordan though. Tiger could eclipse him (and soon). But Michael Jordan in my mind is the most dominating athlete of all time, greatest athlete in his respective sport, and the greatest champion.

Actually, Michael Jordan is one who came to mind before reading his list, too, and I was surprised by his absence. However, there are a couple of names on that list with which I'm not even familiar (oops!). ;) BTW, 'anyone ever seen Michael Jordan's mother? She's one interesting lady to listen to; have seen her interviewed.

[edited to add: Didn't even see Dana's note before posting mine; how I overlooked it, going down the line from top to bottom, dunno ... but it happens sometimes. ;) Oh, I see now ... there are a few enough minutes between them that I probably started writing this before she posted hers.]

[Brad Mercer]

Tiger Woods is indeed incredible and perhaps will be the most dominating sports figure of all-time. I love watching him.

Your list interests me though. Certainly geographics would play a part in any list of "greatest champions." I have no idea how that list can't be topped by Michael Jordan though.


Well, discount anything I say as coming from a total non-sports fan, but I think several factors are significant in anyone's evaluation of a title like "greatest champions". One is certainly geography. Another is the age of the person compiling the list. I, at 50, would say Muhammed Ali was the greatest boxer of all time. My 75 year old father would give that title to Joe Louis. Most guys my age would agree with me and most guys his age would agree with him. Another factor is our own sports preferences. The greatest champion in a sport we follow avidly is likely to rank higher on our list than the greatest champion of a sport we don't follow avidly.

Roland was probably actually trying to guard against that last tendency by naming Don Bradman third instead of first. Bradman was astonishingly, overwhelmingly superior to all other cricket players ever, in the history of that fairly old game, and Roland is a big cricket fan.

Another factor is simply the passage of time. That first guy who ran to or from Marathon to carry a war message, giving the marathon it's name and distance, may have been the most astonishing athlete in the world, as might any champion of the ancient olympics, or any of thousands of other competitors in the Mayan Empire or ancient China or anywhere else, but we don't actually have the ability to measure their performances or even know of them. In any event, lists of greatest champions or greatest songs or movies or any other such list are frequently weighted toward more recent contestants, who may or may not have been greater than those before, but whose place in our memory is certainly greater.

As a non-sports fan, I'm always impressed by anyone who so totally dominates his sport that even I am forced to become aware of the athlete and his statistics. Wayne Gretzky was like that, as is Tiger Woods. Bjorn Borg was briefly like that, before retiring young. I'm not sure Michael Jordan was quite at that level. He was certainly the greatest basketball player of his generation and maybe ever, but I'm not sure he dominated basketball as utterly as Wayne Gretzky dominated hockey or Don Bradman dominated cricket. If Tiger Woods has another 10 years like the past 10, he'll certainly go down as the greatest golfer ever, and a contender for that elusive category of champion who most thoroughly dominated all other players in his sport in his generation.

Of course, I've already exhausted my knowledge of sports, so feel free to respond and carry on the discussion without me. ;-)

Brad

P.S. Roland will probably agree with everyone else that Jordan belongs on the list, and just slipped his mind. ;-)

[Roland Hearn]

P.S. Roland will probably agree with everyone else that Jordan belongs on the list, and just slipped his mind. ;-)

Yup that's the truth :) .

That was why I thought it would be cool to list just five because there is no way you can list five without leaving someone out that should be in. I would love to see others complete lists. Michael Jordon was simply a phenomena and deserves to be in the list.
Of course two of my names were Australians but so dominated their respective sports that they have world renown. It may well be argued that there are more people in the world that would recognize the name Don Bradman above the name Babe Ruth. Bradman and Ruth sat together and watched the red sox play one day and wondered how they could come up with a baseball/cricket hybrid. It never went anywhere obviously.
I include Bjorn Borg, however, over half a dozen Australian world champions of the 60's and 70's, because he probably did more to propel the sport on a world stage than anyone else. Prior to Borg it pretty much was the domain of the US and Australia.
Tiger blows me away though. Golf is such a game of vagaries and it is so difficult to dominate given the number of individuals playing. Every time you go out you are playing against probably the best 150 in the world. As I said my list isn’t in any order so I don’t know if I would say he is the greatest of all time but I do think he deserves to be on any list.

[Ian Gentles]

I certaily think he is the best, he is just thirty and some good years left, he will break all records.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

(Roger Federer might warrant some consideration as well.)


After his latest win, I was reminded of this thread, and just wanted to reiterate that though the sport is still in decline (at least in the US), Federer is well on his way to being the best ever in his sport. He has already tied Borg for third on the all-time list of major titles and the five Wimbledon's in a row and he did it way quicker than Borg.

Anyway, Federer is dominant and already one of the greatest champions of all-time.

[Ryan Scott]

[FONT="Garamond"][SIZE="3"]
After his latest win, I was reminded of this thread, and just wanted to reiterate that though the sport is still in decline (at least in the US), Federer is well on his way to being the best ever in his sport. He has already tied Borg for third on the all-time list of major titles and the five Wimbledon's in a row and he did it way quicker than Borg.


Point taken on Federer, but he didn't do it any faster that Borg. Borg retired from tennis at the age of 25 (the same age Federer is now). Borg has a record six French Open titles to go along with his five straight Wimbledons, and four non-consecutive US Open titles. He won the Australian Open the one time he played down under, but in the late seventies, most players didn't go to Australia at Christmas for the tournament, so there are seven more majors he didn't even compete in.

Federer's very, very good, but I think, like Tiger, we have to wait for the end of his career before we judge him. Besides, I've never heard any tennis expert say Federer was better than Rod Laver, so he's really only competing for second or third right now.

[Ian Gentles]

I'm just about to head off to work on a beautiful spring morning in Brisbane. Tiger is coming up the 12th and unless he breaks a leg in a bunker he will gain his 12th major. I thought an Adam Scott might have a chance at one stage but Tiger is just running away @ five shots in the lead. What an amazing effort. He has never failed to win in a major when coming into the final round in the lead. That is an amazing statistic. Where he ranks in terms of the world stage in all sports I guess will be argued until someone else can dominate a sport like he does golf but in my opinion if he isn't one of the greatest champions of all time he is in the top five.
My top five in no order:
Tiger Woods
Babe Ruth
Don Bradman
Bjorn Borg
Wally Lewis

Tiger has sure got something most others dont, i think he will retire an all time great, and very rich indeed. Hey i just want to be his caddy! lol

[Ian Gentles]

I thought Joe Lewis was great, am i getting old? And Sam Snead in golf lol. Bradmand was fantastic, and Freddy Truman!

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Point taken on Federer, but he didn't do it any faster that Borg.

Borg won his first major in 1974 (the French Open) and his last in 1981 (also the French Open). He won 11 majors in seven years.

Federer won his first major in 2003 (Wimbledon) and his latest in 2007 (also Wimbledon). He won 11 majors in four years.

They only play Wimbledon once a year, so obviously he didn't get five of them in a row any faster, but he certainly got eleven majors more quickly than Borg, demonstrating a much more dominant reign. Three less years is considerably quicker.

[Ian Gentles]

But what is a great champion, is it just what they win? I think humility etc adds a lot, not loosing touch with your roots. We got all these soccer stars who are always boozing, not nice. While we have a litte Irish golfer, his name slips my mind, who nursed his wife till she died last year. Now he applified true humanity, a real champain.

[Ryan Scott]

He had two Australian Opens that Borg never had a shot to win, plus he's had no competition outside of clay until this past week.

I guess he has won them more quickly, but I'm still more impressed with what Borg did. Long winning streaks on both grass and clay is unbelievable.

[Ian Gentles]

He had two Australian Opens that Borg never had a shot to win, plus he's had no competition outside of clay until this past week.

I guess he has won them more quickly, but I'm still more impressed with what Borg did. Long winning streaks on both grass and clay is unbelievable.


Yes it is.

[Mike Schutz]

Besides, I've never heard any tennis expert say Federer was better than Rod Laver, so he's really only competing for second or third right now.

God bless you, Ryan, for referencing Rocket Rod Laver - the tennis champion of my childhood. And a lefty at that!

Thanks for the shout out to OLD SCHOOL!

[Jim Franklin]

I would have thought Pele might have gotten notice in what we call soccer and the international community calls football. From all the reports I recall he was quite dominating in his sport. How about Babe Didrickson as a dominating woman athlete and going way back Jim Thorpe was quite a star in more than one sport. Jesse Owens is another of note from his era.

[Roland Hearn]

God bless you, Ryan, for referencing Rocket Rod Laver - the tennis champion of my childhood. And a lefty at that!

Thanks for the shout out to OLD SCHOOL!

Just another Aussie dominating a sport :basic05. And a Queenslander at that.

[Ian Gentles]

I would have thought Pele might have gotten notice in what we call soccer and the international community calls football. From all the reports I recall he was quite dominating in his sport. How about Babe Didrickson as a dominating woman athlete and going way back Jim Thorpe was quite a star in more than one sport. Jesse Owens is another of note from his era.

You are right Pele should stand out big time!

[Gina Stevenson]

I thought Joe Lewis was great, am i getting old? And Sam Snead in golf lol. Bradmand was fantastic, and Freddy Truman!

Old? Nawww ... otherwise, I might be considered the same, recalling---once someone mentions golf---the time when in/near Atlanta this friend & I ran into Jack Nicklaus late at night at a hotel when checking in. She & I were on the way to Florida, and he wasn't in the greatest of moods ... it was raining! :rolleyes:

God bless you, Ryan, for referencing Rocket Rod Laver - the tennis champion of my childhood. And a lefty at that!



Yea! for all of us lefties. ;)

[Ian Gentles]

Rain would do it for a golfer Gina, got a friend in Okla who plays every afternoon if it dosent rain, he hates rain lol.

[Kevin Rector]

Don Bradman is the only cricket player I've ever heard of so that must count for something.

As far as who's best, I think you can only compare apples to apples so comparing a baseball player with a golfer just doesn't make much sense to me.

So without further ado:

Jack Nicklaus is the best golfer of all time, while Tiger is the most talented of all time. Someday if Tiger continues to play as he has in the past Jack Nicklaus will be the second best golfer of all time.

Wayne Gretzky (the Great One) is by far the best ice hockey player of all time. It is astonishing to think of how much better he was at ice hockey than anyone else. Not only did Gretzky have more goals than anyone else ever and not only did he have more assists than anyone ever, he had more assists than anyone ever had goals + assists. He is the only player ever to have his number (99) retired league-wide. There is a young man named Sidney Crosby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_crosby) who might be able to give Gretzky a run for his money but it will be many years before that will be seen. (if you can't tell I really like ice hockey).

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Wayne Gretzky (the Great One) is by far the best ice hockey player of all time. It is astonishing to think of how much better he was at ice hockey than anyone else. Not only did Gretzky have more goals than anyone else ever and not only did he have more assists than anyone ever, he had more assists than anyone ever had goals + assists. He is the only player ever to have his number (99) retired league-wide. There is a young man named Sidney Crosby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_crosby) who might be able to give Gretzky a run for his money but it will be many years before that will be seen. (if you can't tell I really like ice hockey).

Hmm...ice hockey...that sounds vaguely familiar...I think I heard of it once...

[Kevin Rector]

Hmm...ice hockey...that sounds vaguely familiar...I think I heard of it once...

There's a large part of me that thinks I probably should have been born in Canada. :basic05

[Ryan Scott]

Northern Wisconsin isn't close enough for you?

[Ian Gentles]

Northern Wisconsin isn't close enough for you?

ROFLOL

[Kevin Rector]

Northern Wisconsin isn't close enough for you?

All they seem to care about here is Packer's football. I have to drive 3 hours to watch an NHL game live and then I'd be in Minnesota where they do love hockey so you can't hardly get affordable tickets.

[Ryan Scott]

All they seem to care about here is Packer's football. I have to drive 3 hours to watch an NHL game live and then I'd be in Minnesota where they do love hockey so you can't hardly get affordable tickets.


No, you can't get affordable tickets because, for some reason, the NHL charges ridiculous amounts. Even where they don't like hockey it's too expensive to go. Although maybe it's a little better after the lockout; I haven't checked.

[Kevin Rector]

No, you can't get affordable tickets because, for some reason, the NHL charges ridiculous amounts. Even where they don't like hockey it's too expensive to go. Although maybe it's a little better after the lockout; I haven't checked.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you. You can get into an NHL game in Nashville for as little as $15. They don't sell out in Nashville. I used to go to the games just before puck drop and get lower bowl tickets (normally $65) for $10 from scalpers (legal in Tennessee). That was three years ago.

The Minnesota Wild have sold out pretty much every home game they've ever had. There's a several year waiting list for season tickets. So if you wanna buy Wild tickets you have to pay at least face value and more likely a slight premium.

[Ian Gentles]

No, you can't get affordable tickets because, for some reason, the NHL charges ridiculous amounts. Even where they don't like hockey it's too expensive to go. Although maybe it's a little better after the lockout; I haven't checked.


So who does afford em and fill em stadiums? I wonder this about all major sport! Cause its sure ordinary folks, or anyone sensible, cant afford prices!

[Kevin Rector]

So who does afford em and fill em stadiums? I wonder this about all major sport! Cause its sure ordinary folks, or anyone sensible, cant afford prices!


People who have a lot more money than me.

[Ian Gentles]

People who have a lot more money than me.


Yea but they always say they are ordinary people, ordinary on what plannet, and where they all get em from? lol

[Kevin Rector]

Yea but they always say they are ordinary people, ordinary on what plannet, and where they all get em from? lol

Yeah, I guess it's all a matter of priorities. I could afford to play more golf or go to more sports games if I didn't tithe. I could spend more on one activity if I didn't do another.

I would imagine that the sports people are simply really passionate about sports and so they invest a large amount of their income into it. Also a number of the more expensive seats are often owned by companies not people. Also in markets that sell out constantly many people buy season tickets and use a few but mostly sell the rest at a slight markup to people who are willing to pay a premium to have a good seat to just one or two games a year.

[Ian Gentles]

Yeah, I guess it's all a matter of priorities. I could afford to play more golf or go to more sports games if I didn't tithe. I could spend more on one activity if I didn't do another.

I would imagine that the sports people are simply really passionate about sports and so they invest a large amount of their income into it. Also a number of the more expensive seats are often owned by companies not people. Also in markets that sell out constantly many people buy season tickets and use a few but mostly sell the rest at a slight markup to people who are willing to pay a premium to have a good seat to just one or two games a year.



Ineresting, very interesting!

[Gina Stevenson]

Jack Nicklaus is the best golfer of all time, while Tiger is the most talented of all time. Someday if Tiger continues to play as he has in the past Jack Nicklaus will be the second best golfer of all time.


Wow! You mean we saw "the greatest!?" ;) Yeah, even tho' I never watch golf much, his face was familiar enough, we just knew it was him (there was some tournament going on at the time, too), tho' there wasn't anyone else around. He was there with his black umbrella, & grumpy mood. Po' guy! :rolleyes:

Yea but they always say they are ordinary people, ordinary on what plannet, and where they all get em from? lol

Right. Wonder sometimes about concerts, even. We'll hear that a concert is "only $16 ($18) dollars!" Well, I guess their "only" means less than $20. But by the time you pay ticketmaster, or whomever, their cut ($2-3), it gets near there. For some reason, tho' I love musical events, I just tend to not go so much as we used to when they seemed more reasonable ... now, guess I'd just as soon---if it's something I really "have to hear"---spend $$ on something that can be heard over & over (tho' live events are sure nice!), like a CD.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I just want to bump up this thread every time I think that Federer makes another point to my belief that he's the most dominant tennis player of all-time.

(And Tiger was great yesterday too.)

You guys willing to concede to Federer yet?

[Ryan Scott]

It has to be Federer. I was thinking about this yesterday. We're always surprised when Tiger's not in the hunt for a title on the final day, but the world would collapse if Roger Federer didn't make the semi-finals of a tournament. In fact he's made the finals in 10 straight majors.

Tiger's been good, but he hasn't been in the Top 2 at every major for two and a half years. Federer is just an unbelievable athlete.

[Roland Hearn]

Well, I'm not ready to concede quite yet. Tennis is a sport that gives itself to total dominance by one player for a period of time. Look at the last 40 years, the modern era, and whoever is number one is head and shoulders above everyone else during the time they are in the spot light. Think about the way people spoke about Sampras and Agassi, or Connors or Borg or just about all the #1's they are always considered untouchable. Golf just does not allow for that in the same way. You get down to the cut off and any of 10 players can win most tournaments. Chance plays a much bigger, by an enormous factor, role in golf than it does in tennis. I'm not going to concede the dominance that Tiger has had on his sport yet. There is a chance that Federer will pass as quick as he came like most tennis champions but Tiger will still be in the elite ten years from now, if he chooses to keep playing.

[Ryan Scott]

That's true. If Tiger is still winning majors when he's 50, he'll win, but over the last three years, Federer has been the most dominant player in any sport.

[Brian Blankenship]

Sportscenter had a so-called tournament a while back of the greatest champion that is both on the field, or the court, and the buzz about the player off the court. It came down to LeBron James and Tiger Woods. Tiger won by a substantial margin. I believe it was 65% to 35%.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I was thinking of Federer again (for obvious reasons), and thinking about dominant players.

Have we not mentioned Wilt Chamberlain? He was certainly a dominating individual in basketball. He was over seven feet tall before anyone was over seven feet tall. His individual numbers dwarfed everyone else's.

Of course, basketball is a team sport, so it never really resulted in too many championships. Chamberlain made it to the Finals, but ran into one of the most dominating teams of all-time.

[Ryan Scott]

I just finished reading ESPN Magazine and they highlighted a young woman who competes in wheelchair tennis. Apparently she's so good, she's the only player with enough endorsements and prize money to play professionally (without another job). Regardless, she has won something like 246 consecutive matches. That seems like dominance to me.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Just wanted to bump this up again since Tiger has won five tournaments in a row (that he's entered). He's unbelievable.

That putt yesterday was incredible.

[Ryan Scott]

It was an incredible final nine. Even my wife enjoyed watching it.

They showed that back to July of last year, Tiger now has 8 victories and a second place in his last nine tournaments.

He's won five in a row for the third time in his career!

He's tied Ben Hogan with 64 career victories and is now less than 20 away from the all-time lead.

He's only 32 in a sport where players generally don't hit their peak until age 34 or 35. This is pretty incredible.

[Mike Schutz]

We've seen golfers have several years of dominance throughout the professional history of the sport. But I don't think we've ever seen this kind of dominance for this long of a period. And the fact that he has continually blown up and restructured his game during the same time is amazing.

In an era where golfers as a whole are better than they have ever been, his dominance can, in my opinion, be attributed to his mental toughness.

[Ian Gentles]

Tiger is a golfing machine, quite a remarkable player. Thing I am noticing is, folks are getting fed up with his dominance of the game, they want to see others win more. Thing is, there are very few players out there who can really challenge Tiger.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Ha...

I've got an eye on the NCAA tournament on TV right now. They always advertise The Masters during it. The first commercial I just saw encouraged people to turn in to The Masters and Tiger Woods "on his quest for a perfect season."

A perfect season?! Can you imagine that!?!?

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Just gotta bump this again with Tiger entering the last round of a major with the lead. In thirteen prior situations of the same sort (entering the last round with a lead in a major), he's never lost, and he's won 54 of 57 (I think) in that situation amongst all PGA events.

I got to watch the last several holes last night...some unbelievable stuff, and one very lucky shot. But that's golf, and everyone's going to get that shot once in a while. Tiger happened to get it on hole 17 of day 3 of a major.

Anyway, today should be fun. I won't get to watch until 8:00 or so, but that's all right. (And this East Coaster doesn't mind at all watching golf from his bed. It was quite nice to just turn the TV off and fall asleep right after the round last night. I like the late start.)

[Ryan Scott]

18 hole playoff today. Luckily Tiger figured out that if he lifted his left heal at contact on his swing that his knee wouldn't hurt so bad. Maybe he'll make it through today.

[Gary Swartzlander]

18 hole playoff today. Luckily Tiger figured out that if he lifted his left heal at contact on his swing that his knee wouldn't hurt so bad. Maybe he'll make it through today.

What an amazing round of Monday golf. Both golfers will be exhausted when this is complete and both deserve to win. This is great golf and great competition.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

That was awesome. I don't think I'll ever find myself rooting against Tiger, but I sure became a fan of Rocco Mediate this weekend.

14 majors now.

[Gary Swartzlander]

I agree, either would have been a great winner in this case. The good thing for Roco is that while he didn't win, he can always say he finished regulation tied for first and there are a whole lot of golfers who can't say that. What a great story for both golfers.

[Ryan Scott]

British Open just a month away. Perhaps the knee will be back to normal by then?

[Gina Stevenson]

'Heard today that Tiger's not all that far behind Jack Nicklaus' major tourney record [something like 18-19?]. Still recall running into him when there was something going on in Atlanta, but it was raining ... so the poor guy was sounding a bit perturbed at this one hotel a friend & I stopped at on the way to Florida long, long ago.

[Jim Franklin]

Tiger out for the remainder of the year for surgery. Well he made the last look at him for another year very memorable.

[Marg Webb]

That was awesome. I don't think I'll ever find myself rooting against Tiger, but I sure became a fan of Rocco Mediate this weekend.

14 majors now.

WOW I became a fan also.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ryan Scott]

Tiger's going to miss the first two major championships of his career. He's ok as far as the record goes, though. Nicklaus didn't get his 15th major until he was 38. Tiger's got six years to win one more and still be ahead of the pace.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

With all of this hoopla about Michael Phelps right now, Boston.com has an on-line poll similar to our discussion (but limited to American athletes):
http://www.boston.com/sports/specials/galleries/Best_American_athletes_in_history/

Jim Thorpe is currently way ahead of everyone else. Jordan is second, Lance Armstrong third, and Tiger is fourth.

I personally think that this Phelps thing is a bit over-hyped. He is indeed incredible, but with so many swimming events out there to win, it seems a different notion to call him the greatest Olympian ever over others who only have a chance at one medal per Olympics.

[Roland Hearn]

I agree Jeremy although he does have the ability to claim being the greatest swimmer of all time. What he has done for swimming has not been done since Mark Spitz. I remember watching the Munich Olympics and noticing one individual standing out above everyone else in the whole Olympics because of their ability, the only other that has done it in the same way I think is Carl Lewis and now Phelps. Congratulations to him.

[Ryan Scott]

I personally think that this Phelps thing is a bit over-hyped. He is indeed incredible, but with so many swimming events out there to win, it seems a different notion to call him the greatest Olympian ever over others who only have a chance at one medal per Olympics.


Greatest Olympian Ever is a title that no one will ever definitively claim, but Phelps is not getting over-hyped. He does have more available events, but what he's doing is the equivalent of someone winning Gold on the track in the 100m, 200m, 400m, 110m hurdles, 400m hurdles, 4x100m relay, 4x400m relay, and the 800m.

The most amazing part of the feat is not the number of events he can win, but that fact that he can win them all in the same week. They've said Phelps' body, in additional to being perfectly proportioned to swim, processes lactic acid at 8-10 times that of a normal person, which means he recovers from these swims better and faster than anyone else.

The commentators have noted that there are probably two or three other events Phelps could have won if he had entered them this week. He and his coach were gunning for 8 golds, so they decided not to be too ambitious.

The only comparable feat I can think of in Olympic history is Eric Heiden at the 1980 Winter Olympics in Lake Placid, who won all five speed skating distances (from 500m all the way up to 10,000m).

[Jim Poteet]

Greatest Olympian Ever is a title that no one will ever definitively claim, but Phelps is not getting over-hyped. He does have more available events, but what he's doing is the equivalent of someone winning Gold on the track in the 100m, 200m, 400m, 110m hurdles, 400m hurdles, 4x100m relay, 4x400m relay, and the 800m.

The most amazing part of the feat is not the number of events he can win, but that fact that he can win them all in the same week. They've said Phelps' body, in additional to being perfectly proportioned to swim, processes lactic acid at 8-10 times that of a normal person, which means he recovers from these swims better and faster than anyone else.

The commentators have noted that there are probably two or three other events Phelps could have won if he had entered them this week. He and his coach were gunning for 8 golds, so they decided not to be too ambitious.

The only comparable feat I can think of in Olympic history is Eric Heiden at the 1980 Winter Olympics in Lake Placid, who won all five speed skating distances (from 500m all the way up to 10,000m).

You're not even close, Ryan. In the 1952 Olympics, in Helsinki, Emil Zatopek of Czechoslovakia won the 5000 meters, 10,000 meters and the marathon. He ran all those races in an 8 day span. He was advised not to run in the Olympics by his doctor as he had a gland infection just 2 months before the event and could not train for a period of time. No doubt in my mind, he had the greatest Olympic performance of all time. This takes nothing away from Phelps as I think he is the greatest swimmer in history.

[Ryan Scott]

You're right - I forgot Zatopek and I'm a big long distance fan too. Shameful. He ran an absolutely insane schedule (especially since he'd never run a marathon before in his life - I guess qualifying wasn't as strict back then). Of course every athlete was tougher back then.

[Jim Poteet]

Did Zatopek win all three? I guess I thought he missed out on the Gold in one. If I'm wrong it's certainly up there. That's an insane schedule, although every athlete was tougher back then.

He won all 3. He had the ugliest running style you've ever seen. However, he had so much heart that he would not give up. He was in the Czech Army and was used to a discipline that is missing in most athletes today.

[Ryan Scott]

He also lacks the depth of competition. They'll never do it because it's financially risky, but I'm guessing someone like Haile Gabreselassie, in his prime, could have done something similar if there weren't event specialists waiting to take him out as he tired.

To me that's what's so amazing about Phelps - he's swimming 17 times, often against guys who only have to go 2 or 3 swims and can focus on one single event. It almost caught up to him in the 100 fly, but he pulled off the dumb-luck miracle.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Bump. Federer.

[Ian Gentles]

another thought, Padraig Harrison of Ireland is looking hot.