No Church This Sunday - It's Christmas

[Edith Thurmond]

WHAT think ye about this article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204464404577112630659721286.html)? It's stirred up quite a bit of discussion around the net. The comments are interesting, too.

:smilies1171:

-et-

[Scott Sherwood]

Depending on the make-up of the congregation, I can understand that it would be counterproductive for a very few to work extra hard in order to host a stripped down worship experience for a very small number of die-hards and their out of town guests.

For our church, I'm expecting our crowd to be near average if not a little above average. A lot of our folks host out of towners and are really relishing the rare opportunity to celebrate Christmas on Sunday morning in church. It will be interesting for me to see whether we have any local newcomers.

We use banners to advertise along the two adjacent streets. 3235

[John Kennedy]

At Highland Congregational we'll be having a 5 pm Christmas Eve service and Sunday worship at 9:30 AM. The AM service will be short and simple, but it will BE.

This item was under discussion here a few years ago.

[Jim Chabot]

As I sat down to pick the songs for our Christmas eve service, I called a friend of mine to pick his brain. He tells me that he sees the largest group of visitors each year at Christmas eve. He tells me that the key is to display a sign indicating that they will have a candlelite service.

We don't have a sign and our Pastor indicates that we usually have a small crowd. So absent a sign, we did the next best thing and put it up on Facebook. I've picked familiar carols in hopes that we will see some new folks and we are investigating the possibility of incorporating a letterboard into our sign.

Our Christmas day service will be at the regular time of 10:30

[Jim Franklin]

Since our congregation is skewed to the retirees and empty nesters I will guess we will have a larger than usual attendance. For our Christmas contatta on Dec. 4 we had 341 in attendance for a worship service crowd that generally averages around 165.

[Doug Kitchen]

Depending on the make-up of the congregation, I can understand that it would be counterproductive for a very few to work extra hard in order to host a stripped down worship experience for a very small number of die-hards and their out of town guests.

For our church, I'm expecting our crowd to be near average if not a little above average. A lot of our folks host out of towners and are really relishing the rare opportunity to celebrate Christmas on Sunday morning in church. It will be interesting for me to see whether we have any local newcomers.

We use banners to advertise along the two adjacent streets. 3235

Lori asked me to post your banner to our facebook page - just changed the christmas morning time.

Christmas eve is consistently a good time for visitors for us. Of those who are choosing between the two services, Christmas eve is winning out. I think this year we will have fewer Sunday morning than we usually have for Christmas Sunday.

Thanks for the image

Doug

[Susan Unger]

When I was stressed out from teaching, I did not appreciate church on Sunday morning of Christmas Day. Now that I am much more rested and trying hard to apprecite a simple, Christ filled Christmas I can't imagine NOT attend church on Christmas on Sunday.

We also have a Chrismas eve service which I am attending.

[Jon Bemis]

We'll have a Christmas morning service at 11:00am. Probably will be quite small since many of our families are going to be out of town. In our former church the Sunday of December 25th Christmas service was one of our larger services.

[George Wallace]

Here are two very short pertinent articles:

Christmas and Me-Worship Wins Out Over the Worship of God (http://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2011/12/christmas-and-me-worship-wins-out-over-the-worship-of-god/)

Christianless Churches (http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2011/12/22/christianless-churches/)

Blessings
George

[Sarah Smith]

Good links!

We plan to attend the Christmas Eve candlight service tonight AND church tomorrow morning. Usually, even if not a communion Sunday, it will be a communion service on Christmas.

[Craig Laughlin]

Worship in response to the coming of Messiah happens for me on Christmas eve. Having another service the next day does not enhance worship more than the worship which normally happens with just my family on Christmas morning. That family worship will not happen this year because of the logistical demands of putting on a service. Christmas Sunday we anticipate a number of unbelievers in the service so the service will have bent toward proclaiming the good news as does our Christmas Eve service.

Christmas morning we are compressing 3 services into 1 in order to reduce the demands on logistical staff who after doing two giant services the night before are going to be pretty beat. For them, myself included, it will be a lot of work this evening followed by directly off to bed, get up early and back to church for the Christmas service. Hopefully home by 1 pm. Quick Nap and then obligations with the extended family for Christmas dinner. We are not even sure when we are going to open presents.

While I expect on a personal level to worship his coming Christmas eve, I am going to miss that I will not worship with the intimacy of my family and honestly Christmas will not be as meaningful this year. More public worship services does not necessarily equal more worship. What happens in a Christian home on Christmas morning may be more worshipful than gathering to sing more carols and hearing more preaching. Just my thoughts. -

[Edith Thurmond]

THANKS for your replies reflecting your thoughts. The article was interesting to me, but the various discussions on the net regarding it were even more so. It seems that the church is not uniform any longer on holding Christmas Day services. Duly acknowledging that the clergy and the musicians have put in many hours for the various services and many thanks to you for so doing. We will be in the group of churches holding Christmas Day services. Here's an article (http://newsok.com/with-christmas-on-a-sunday-some-oklahoma-churches-alter-worship-plans/article/3632738) giving some research by Lifeway and some info about what various local churches are doing.

Observation: I don't see many churches with nativity sets on their lawns anymore. Was just wondering the reason for that as most churches (at least in the places I've lived) always had beautiful displays. Another tradition gone by the way, perhaps.

Merry Christmas,

-et-

[Larry Parsons]

This evening we are having a few songs, communion and fellowship with our brother and sister in Christ. I see no problem with the idea of skipping Sunday AM service Dec 25. to celebrate Christ birthday at home. And I will be right back in church the next Sunday so what the big deal?
Thanks
Larry

[Dale Cozby]

Culture often impacts church attendence and behaviors.
Even Christmas itself was placed on the calendar to influence the cultrue away from paganism and toward the church.

When the SuperBowl is played the cities that are playing in it struggle with attendence during the game.
Scott Sherwood, Your church used to have attendence drop off well over 100 people when the Dallas Cowboys started a game at noon or 12:30 back when my parents attended there in the 1980's.

Sporting events, family traditions, national and other secular h9lidays always have competed with church attendence. So we can make people feel guilty for a less than legalistic approach to the sabbath keeping, but why?
Why do we put this on people, when we don't condemn them or ourselves going out to eat after services and force others to work on Sunday so we can eat out?
Why do we honor Sunday above Saturday if we are going to be sabatarians?
Why do we not condemn those who choose to work on the sabbath rather than attend services?

Also, if we are going to reach the most people should we not adjust service times to make it easier for them to attend?
Christmas may bear Christ's name but it remains very much a secular holiday in our culture.

Now with that said, we added a service on Christmas-Sunday night so those who would not or could not in good conscience attend a morning service be here.
A new Christian having difficulty reaching his/her heathen family can still do so without disturbing thier secular family festivities. Even in my own family, I have long backsliden members sighing at the idea of going to church at all on Christmas, so having it where it least affects them seems like a good idea not a bad one to me.(this because I am always the host for family stuff now)
I don't want them resenting me or the church for "forcing" them cut short the family activities to attend. Hopefully and God willing, a sabbath Christmas will be a blessing not an obligation or a resentment to the pagan, backsliden and heathen among us.

[Billy Cox]

WHAT think ye about this article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204464404577112630659721286.html)? It's stirred up quite a bit of discussion around the net. The comments are interesting, too.

:smilies1171:

-et-

I wager that the churches most likely to not have a morning service on Christmas Day are led by a pastor who has young children. Last time Christmas fell on a Sunday, the pastor I was working with said in a leadership meeting, "I don't want to do that to my kids", so we didn't have a service on Christmas Day. Interestingly he grew up as a Nazarene pastor's kid.

[Greg Farra]

I've heard the arguments on both sides. We're not having services, so we're going to a Lutheran church in the morning. For me it is a bit of a break. I have been part of a worship service every week since the end of May 2010

[David Graham]

We had a "comfortably" full house at our church in town this morning with around 120 people present. In fact this year in 2 of our country churches the Christmas services have been very well attended (full houses at each). A Christmas service held at a aged care facility in the region was also well attended. All up about 240 people attended our Christmas services through-out the Parish this year which is up from last year....... "Glory to God in the highest!!!!"

[Kevin Rector]

I wager that the churches most likely to not have a morning service on Christmas Day are led by a pastor who has young children. Last time Christmas fell on a Sunday, the pastor I was working with said in a leadership meeting, "I don't want to do that to my kids", so we didn't have a service on Christmas Day. Interestingly he grew up as a Nazarene pastor's kid.

I have four young kids and I was very clear about wanting to make a worship service available to those who wanted to come. I wouldn't guilt trip people into attending, but it's not too hard to get the presents open, play with them, have a nice breakfast and still make it to church on time... at least not for my family.

However, we don't have a Christmas Eve service, so that will probably increase people's desire to attend (and we cancelled Sunday School & our evening gathering).

[Greg Farra]

Oops, I forgot we didn't have service last year either, so I did go somewhere else. We did the 8 am Lutheran service with friends that go there.

[Rich Schmidt]

Oops, I forgot we didn't have service last year either, so I did go somewhere else. We did the 8 am Lutheran service with friends that go there.

Last year on Christmas Day? Or on Sunday, Dec. 26? Just curious. I know there are some churches that always "take tr Sunday off" between Christmas & New Year's Day.

[John Kennedy]

Packed house last night for Christmas Eve. Down a little this AM from normal attendance. Good service, though. Next week, no choir and a guest minister. A couple of other singers will be joining me to lead in worship, so it really will be a prasie team with a pipe organ.

[Greg Farra]

Last year on Christmas Day? Or on Sunday, Dec. 26? Just curious. I know there are some churches that always "take tr Sunday off" between Christmas & New Year's Day.

It was the 26th, Rich. BTW, our attendance at Christmas Eve was about the same as a Sunday morning. We had less regulars, but more guests. We even put out a couple of extra rows of chairs.

[Tami Martin]

Little late to the discussion, as usual :), but from my perspective, we'd have probably gone to church today and last night IF we did not have a small child and the in-law's family celebration last night. But there's also the wrinkle of having been disconnected from our congregation so that might have played into it as well.

For us these days, going to church is one in a very long list of obligations in a given week. Iit takes all sense of rest out of my weekends. I feel less and less inclined to go to yet another weak sermon supported by music I don't like (greatly reduced music at that) with a jibe at giving (a very difficult proposition for those of us still suffering from un- and under-employment for an extended period of time). Christmas is even worse with all the other obligations this time of year.

[Kevin Rector]

We had an exceptional service. Without Sunday School a TON of people were late, several even missing the vast majority of the song service. But it was a great service, I could hardly administer the sacrament of communion without my voice breaking.

[Billy Cox]

I have four young kids and I was very clear about wanting to make a worship service available to those who wanted to come. I wouldn't guilt trip people into attending, but it's not too hard to get the presents open, play with them, have a nice breakfast and still make it to church on time... at least not for my family.

However, we don't have a Christmas Eve service, so that will probably increase people's desire to attend (and we cancelled Sunday School & our evening gathering).

I didn't say that every pastor with young children cancelled services, just that those with small children at home have a bit of an extra incentive to cancel.

[Jon Bemis]

We too had an exceptional service this morning. Although we had several families out of town we had above average attendance and with lots of visitors, including some from a church nearby that had no service this am.

[Sarah Smith]

Tami--your post hit home in some aspects.

When we attend we do have a youngster in tow. Ours however is now a second grader, so much easier to schedule around. We did my church Christmas Eve rather than my husband's because mine had an early service and his was at 11 pm. We did his Christmas day because his was a simple carol and reading service and didn't start too early.

(As a bonus, they have hired a new organist who after church spent nearly 45 minutes showing that child the inner workings of a pipe organ, gave her a few brief instructions, and let her play the magnificent organ--right hand, chords with the left, and footpedals for the bass. She was in 7th heaven. Her goal in music is to play the organ over at our own church....another wonderful pipe organ. She left church leaping stairs and loudly shouting to everyone that playing the organ was the best Christmas gift she will EVER get.)

But I hear what you say about music you don't like, sermons that only beat you up, and generally "no good news" services.

We made the decision a couple of years ago, after resonating strongly with the book "Christless Christianity", to find a place to worship where the music does stir our souls, the sermons do declare the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and where the focus is on Christ rather than "do more try harder what a bunch of losers" sermons.

We haven't looked back.

[Tami Martin]

It's been a very difficult struggle, Sarah, but it is really nice to hear there is hope :)

[Billy Cox]

We made the decision a couple of years ago, after resonating strongly with the book "Christless Christianity", to find a place to worship where the music does stir our souls, the sermons do declare the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and where the focus is on Christ rather than "do more try harder what a bunch of losers" sermons.

We haven't looked back.

I'm curious... What church did you end up in?

[Bob Carabbio]

Our church (AoG) had a normal service on Christmas morning (and An evening service on Christmas Eve which we attended).

Personally, since we do a late morning Christmas "brunch" for our kids and their families and kids. We simply PASSED on it this week, and will re-synchronize with the Church schedule on Wednesday.

The basic issue is always the SAME.

In one hand you have 1.5 - 2 hours of TIME, and in the other hand you have "Church attendance".

You can keep only one, and must discard the other.

You WILL invariably choose, based on your personal selfish interest, the one that returns the greatest perceived benefit to you.

Simple as that.

[Kami Tuenning]

This conversation would have made entire sense to me several years ago. Today, I have been given a new mind through my faith and reality of the Eucharist. It is interesting how something as subtle as Real Presence changes everything.

Our parish pastor is assisted by a parochial vicar and one retired priest. They serve 3 parishes and offer Mass 7 days a week along with weekly Adoration and any wedding/funeral Masses which come along the way. Our 4 permanent deacons ( men who have studied 3 years of seminary and have wives and families) also assist in Mass everyday of the week, along with their required apostalate (catholic word for "ministry") which they and their spouse carry out daily/weekly.

This year we had the same 5 days of daily Mass, along with extended days and hours of Reconciliation, along with 4 Christmas Eve Vigil Services followed by 4 Christmas Day Masses which begin with the Midnight Mass where the traditional "Proclamation of the Savior's Birth" is heartily declared.

My husband being a Nazarene with no services offered, of course joined me and part of my grown children and grandchildren for the 4:00 PM Christmas Eve Mass which included a childrens choir. We had ample time for a lovely family Christmas Eve supper and celebration before heading back to "Church" for our regular Sunday morning obligation (opportunity) at midnight Mass.

The same priest and deacon's from the 4:00 Pm service were assisting at the altar at the midnight Mass. It is a "given" and a true testimony of faith to these men's wives, grandchildren and friends that the LORD is truly present and worthy of our praise and devotion. These deacon's have all raised godly, active christian children, they are the spouse of 1 wife and have never complained about Christmas being for family and family time taking precedence over "church".

Finally, on Christmas Day our family drove 2 hours to spend the entire Christmas Day with our other grandchildren along with our daughter's in-laws for a festive day of family time and celebration. Not only did we have ample time to be with family and share special traditions together, we began Christmas Day in the Holy Presence of our LORD and Savior, and for myself whom received HIM, communed in an intimate sacred way made possible only through the Eucharist!

While my husband still feels that Sunday morning should not be a obligatory day of attendance if one has already worshiped the LORD at the Christmas Eve service - our difference of opinion lies in our understanding of Eucharist and whom exactly we are meeting at the Mass.

Hope this insight brings a broader understanding of the subject to the conversation.

[Hans Deventer]

We always have a Christmas Eve and Christmas morning service, on whatever day of the week Christmas may be. I've never heard churches here cancel a service because Christmas is on a Sunday. In fact, traditionally, Christmas services are the busiest in the year. Even people that rarely visit church, will do so at Christmas.

[Kami Tuenning]

This conversation would have made entire sense to me several years ago. Today, I have been given a new mind through my faith and reality of the Eucharist. It is interesting how something as subtle as Real Presence changes everything.

Our parish pastor is assisted by a parochial vicar and one retired priest. They serve 3 parishes and offer Mass 7 days a week along with weekly Adoration and any wedding/funeral Masses which come along the way. Our 4 permanent deacons ( men who have studied 3 years of seminary and have wives and families) also assist in Mass everyday of the week, along with their required apostalate (catholic word for "ministry") which they and their spouse carry out daily/weekly.

This year we had the same 5 days of daily Mass, along with extended days and hours of Reconciliation, along with 4 Christmas Eve Vigil Services followed by 4 Christmas Day Masses which begin with the Midnight Mass where the traditional "Proclamation of the Savior's Birth" is heartily declared.

My husband being a Nazarene with no services offered, of course joined me and part of my grown children and grandchildren for the 4:00 PM Christmas Eve Mass which included a childrens choir. We had ample time for a lovely family Christmas Eve supper and celebration before heading back to "Church" for our regular Sunday morning obligation (opportunity) at midnight Mass.

The same priest and deacon's from the 4:00 Pm service were assisting at the altar at the midnight Mass. It is a "given" and a true testimony of faith to these men's wives, grandchildren and friends that the LORD is truly present and worthy of our praise and devotion. These deacon's have all raised godly, active christian children, they are the spouse of 1 wife and have never complained about Christmas being for family and family time taking precedence over "church

Not that it adds anything to the discussion, but I wanted to clarify that deacons receive no compensation for their services to the church. Along with assisting in daily Mass, they all hold full-time secular careers. I recall another post somewhere regarding the subject of "Calling"...this is a fine of example of one being called without the glory and compensation of paid staff common in evangelical and protestant churches.

[Rich Schmidt]

We always have a Christmas Eve and Christmas morning service, on whatever day of the week Christmas may be. I've never heard churches here cancel a service because Christmas is on a Sunday. In fact, traditionally, Christmas services are the busiest in the year. Even people that rarely visit church, will do so at Christmas.

That may be true for some folks... but it's by no means universal.

In our church, for example, Christmas Eve is always packed, including family and friends who rarely attend normally... though attendance is actually lower than a typical Sunday morning, since we have two services on Sunday mornings and only one Christmas Eve service. We don't normally have Christmas Day services, but on years when it falls on a Sunday, our Christmas morning service attendance is less than half a normal Sunday's attendance.

[Hans Deventer]

That may be true for some folks... but it's by no means universal.

It's true for the Netherlands, Rich. That is why I wrote "I've never heard churches here........". Been writing on NazNet for so long that I know my message will get torn to pieces unless I qualify it very consciously. In fact, it even will if I do.

Secondly, I don't think I have EVER suggested that my experience in the Netherlands is universal. Please show me where I did. :smilies1390:

[Rich Schmidt]

It's true for the Netherlands, Rich. That is why I wrote "I've never heard churches here........". Been writing on NazNet for so long that I know my message will get torn to pieces unless I qualify it very consciously. In fact, it even will if I do.

Secondly, I don't think I have EVER suggested that my experience in the Netherlands is universal. Please show me where I did. :smilies1390:

Sorry, Hans. I wasn't trying to pick at your post. I just hadn't had a chance to jump in until now, and your last sentence was my springboard. :) I should have used a better first/transitional sentence... like maybe, "While I hear many people say things like this, it hasn't been my experience."

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I thought this thread would go dormant till 2016... :)

[Hans Deventer]

I've moved the theological discussion on transubstantiation to the theology forum.

[Rich Schmidt]

I've moved the theological discussion on transubstantiation to the theology forum.

Right here (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?6944-Transsubstantiation), if anyone is looking for it.

[Charlene Clevenger]

We had a simple service with an surprising number of people. The pastor expected to have everyone come up around the altar for communion, but we had too many people. It was nearly as many as we have most Sundays.

[Sarah Smith]

Billy--we wound up bichurched.

My husband attends the local Lutheran church most Sundays. My granddaughter and I alternate between worshipping with him and at our own United Methodist Church.

All of us participate in special events at the local CotN, and my granddaughter and I often sneak in SS there before SS and church at the UMC.