Drury tells why he likes Nazarenes

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I think he is pulling our legs a bit...

http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/like.nazarenes.htm

[Christine Kelly]

This caused more than a few smiles.

Chris

[Gina Stevenson]

This caused more than a few smiles.

Chris

Chris, this could be taken two ways ... "more than a few smiles" could be "a lot of smiles," or it could also mean, "more than (just) a few smiles," but other things, too.

In my case it did ... I couldn't help but LOL through much of it. Cute! :basic05

[Mike Norris]

.....Absolutely hilarious!! And....maybe more truth than fiction in what he says

[Barbara Moulton]

It was interesting to read from my perspective as a former Salvation Army Officer, Nazarene Minister and now Wesleyan minister.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

They are still talking about Drury's "Nazarene" column. Some intereting observations:

http://keithdrury.blogspot.com/2006/09/i-like-nazarenes-dont-you.html

[Doris Grant]

Very interesting. I enjoyed reading it, thanks Scott.

Doris

[David Cash]

And I like Keith Drury.

David Cash

[Billy Cox]

Drury was writing to a Wesleyan audience, and I saw somewhere in the discussion that Drury wasn't joking around.

It was eye-opening to see non-Nazarenes expressing such a high view of the Church of the Nazarene. Some of it felt very undeserved.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Drury was writing to a Wesleyan audience, and I saw somewhere in the discussion that Drury wasn't joking around.

It was eye-opening to see non-Nazarenes expressing such a high view of the Church of the Nazarene. Some of it felt very undeserved.

Actually, the way to respond to a compliment is to say, "thank you."
:)

[Jim Franklin]

In SS class this morning we were studying about the Judaizers in Galatians and I brought up about Drury's article. After class my teacher who is in a Master's program at NNU said that Drury had given the topic of "Why I like Nazarenes" as a lecture at the Wesleyan Conference held every February on the campus.

[Billy Cox]

Actually, the way to respond to a compliment is to say, "thank you."
:)

Yes, having been a performer all of my life, I know that compliments are always to be accepted even if I know that things could have been better.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Yes, having been a performer all of my life, I know that compliments are always to be accepted even if I know that things could have been better.

Billy, I need to apologize to you. My reply sounds curt and I didn't intend it to. Your point is well taken.

[Keith Isley]

I really appreciate Keith Drury. I grew up Wesleyan and he was the denominational youth president when i was a teen. He's always been a great leader, and having rediscovered his writings via NazNet over the past year or so, I'm glad he's willing to contribute in this way.

[Nelson Bradford]

WHAT I LIKE ABOUT NAZARENES

(received via email)

- Keith Drury
Associate Professor of Religion
Indiana Wesleyan University
Marion, Indiana

My mother prayed two requests for her sons: (1) That they would not marry a Southerner. (2) That they not marry a Nazarene. So I was not brought up to admire Nazarenes, I came by it through life experience. I really like them, honest. Here's what I admire about Nazarenes:

1. Nazarenes have incredible denominational loyalty.

It's amazing-almost cult-like! When I used to work at my denomination's headquarters I was jealous of their leaders. When their leaders say jump their people jump. Sure, not as high as they used to-but they jump an inch or so, or at least they pretend they have just jumped a bit ago. The only religious folk I've seen with more loyalty than Nazarenes is the Salvation Army. How do they do this? I don't know but I admire their loyalty.

2. Nazarenes raise strong leaders.

Their denomination raises up their little boys to be General Superintendents and College Presidents - or if they can't make it, they can be a DS. Now they do that with their little girls too. It is amazing how many extra leaders they have running around the church waiting to lead something bigger. This helps us all since Nazarenes can export their excess inventory to other denominations. How do they do this? I bet Wesleyans would elect a Nazarene as General Superintendent next time if it were legal. Actually they have enough Generals and College Presidents to take over the entire holiness movement. I admire this about them.

3. Nazarenes have strong self-esteem.

They really believe they're the best. I recall preaching at the multi-thousand attendance Brown City (Missionary) camp in Michigan years ago where a dozen or so Nazarenes visited each night I preached sort of like "evangelist groupies." At the end of the week the entire group of Nazarenes arranged to meet with me to announce to me, "Do you know what? You're a good enough preacher to speak at Nazarene camps?" They did this with straight faces and in total innocence! They were so confident that Nazarene camps were at the top of the food chain they believed they were giving me the ultimate compliment. I admire Nazarenes for their self confidence.

4. Nazarenes talk a lot about holiness and sanctification.

I'm not sure they actually believe any differently than Wesleyans or live more holy lives but they sure talk more about these things lots more and I admire them for it.

5. Nazarenes have the best educational system in the family.

They are the educational kings in the holiness movement. While I think there may be three better individual schools outside the Nazarene church, there is no doubt in my mind that they have the very best total system of higher education and I admire them for it.

6. Nazarenes used to be more liberal than Wesleyans and now they're more conservative. I think they were right both times.

7. Nazarenes have the best dressed General Superintendents.

All their leaders are snazzy dressers but their Generals are the best of all. Just check a Nazarene General's shoes the next time you see one. Impressive! Only the Pope can beat Nazarene Generals. Of course that's why the Pope wears all that fancy paraphernalia - he's seen a live Nazarene General and knows he's in trouble.

[James Thurber]

What a hoot!

There's actually a lot of truth in Dr. Drury's comments.

(and District Camp is coming soon...I'm gonna check the GS's shoes out! :laughing

[Billy Cox]

1. Nazarenes have incredible denominational loyalty.

It's amazing-almost cult-like! When I used to work at my denomination's headquarters I was jealous of their leaders. When their leaders say jump their people jump. Sure, not as high as they used to-but they jump an inch or so, or at least they pretend they have just jumped a bit ago. The only religious folk I've seen with more loyalty than Nazarenes is the Salvation Army. How do they do this? I don't know but I admire their loyalty.

2. Nazarenes raise strong leaders.

Their denomination raises up their little boys to be General Superintendents and College Presidents - or if they can't make it, they can be a DS. Now they do that with their little girls too. It is amazing how many extra leaders they have running around the church waiting to lead something bigger. This helps us all since Nazarenes can export their excess inventory to other denominations. How do they do this? I bet Wesleyans would elect a Nazarene as General Superintendent next time if it were legal. Actually they have enough Generals and College Presidents to take over the entire holiness movement. I admire this about them.

3. Nazarenes have strong self-esteem.

They really believe they're the best. I recall preaching at the multi-thousand attendance Brown City (Missionary) camp in Michigan years ago where a dozen or so Nazarenes visited each night I preached sort of like "evangelist groupies." At the end of the week the entire group of Nazarenes arranged to meet with me to announce to me, "Do you know what? You're a good enough preacher to speak at Nazarene camps?" They did this with straight faces and in total innocence! They were so confident that Nazarene camps were at the top of the food chain they believed they were giving me the ultimate compliment. I admire Nazarenes for their self confidence.

4. Nazarenes talk a lot about holiness and sanctification.

I'm not sure they actually believe any differently than Wesleyans or live more holy lives but they sure talk more about these things lots more and I admire them for it.

5. Nazarenes have the best educational system in the family.

They are the educational kings in the holiness movement. While I think there may be three better individual schools outside the Nazarene church, there is no doubt in my mind that they have the very best total system of higher education and I admire them for it.

6. Nazarenes used to be more liberal than Wesleyans and now they're more conservative. I think they were right both times.

7. Nazarenes have the best dressed General Superintendents.

All their leaders are snazzy dressers but their Generals are the best of all. Just check a Nazarene General's shoes the next time you see one. Impressive! Only the Pope can beat Nazarene Generals. Of course that's why the Pope wears all that fancy paraphernalia - he's seen a live Nazarene General and knows he's in trouble.

I have seen this piece elsewhere, but I appreciate the compliment mixed with poking some fun.

Nazarenes have almost cult-like loyalty to their leaders? The Church of the Nazarene has so many chiefs running around that they have to export some of them to other denominations to give them enough territory to colonize? Nazarenes have self-esteem bordering on self-delusion? On the topic of sanctification/holiness, Nazarenes talk a good game? Our General Superintendents' shoes are rivaled only by those worn by the Pope?

I nominate Drury for the tongue-in-cheek offhand compliment hall of fame.

Of course if anyone still wants to have a Nazarene group-hug of celebration that Drury thinks we are the greatest game in town, please go right ahead.

[Bob Evans]

In my area the Wesleyan are the best church planters in town. I think each branch of the holiness movement has their strength. Great Article

[Barbara Moulton]

I think each branch of the holiness movement has their strength. Great Article

Having served as a minister in three (The Salvation Army, The Church of the Nazarene and now Wesleyan) I would concur.

[Mary Labelle]

In my humble opinion the Nazarene church is headed for disaster and here's why.

Nazarenes believe in Entire Sanctification which they call Christian Perfection *Truth is that no one will be entirely sanctified until they get to heaven. There is no documented place in the Bible where you see the words "Entire Sanctification" I challenge someone to find those two words together. It seems hard to have an article of faith that is not mentioned in the Bible.

Nazarenes are more loyal to a denomination then they are to God and the work of the church. They have to do things that are "nazarene" and most other churches and people that don't normally attend are highly offended and turned off. The answer most Nazarenes give when I say that is "well that's there fault for being offended" I mean you all can come on here and joke about it as "yah well we do that but oh well". Most Nazarenes treat it like it's a special club and it trickles down when you have all the youth groups of the Nazarene churches at odds with each other. They get into arguements about "how my church is better than yours". I know many teens that won't associate with the teens in the other Nazarene church across town. Here we go with the "special club" mentality.

Nazarene Schools cost nearly 25K a year to go and they have their admissions people flooding the churches talking all the kids into going. Where's the church when it comes to being wise with our money and teaching this generation the power of a dollar. You could go to a state school and live and home and be debt free instead of in debt 50K to sallie mae just to pay for your education. Oh but you never hear chapel services on being wise with your money because they are telling the students its ok to go into debt as long as it's at a Christian school. They claim "well its for God". Let's just slap God's name on anything and that will make it ok right? Hey parents start doing your Christian responsibility and teach your kids about money and how to use it wisely. THIS IS NOT BEING WISE WITH YOUR MONEY. 50-100K in debt is not wise. Maybe just maybe those kids could start putting that money into the church instad of the coffers of the colleges.

I challenge someone to prove that these statements are false

[Barb Bouldrey]

Mary,

You are judging an entire denomination by your personal experiences that must have included hurts and disappointments in a Nazarene church.

No Nazarene believes that we are perfect people, but that we can be perfect in our motives toward serving God and have a perfectly cleansed heart.

Whereas the phrase "entire sanctification" is not in the Bible, the words, "FILLED with the Holy Spirit" and "present yourself as a living sacrifice," "crucified with Christ so that I no longer live," and "dead to sin" are there and are interchangeable with entire sanctification. One verse from Paul urges us to be sanctified through and through.

We believe that we can be entirely sanctified (completely) in a moment of crisis experience with the Lord, but then we grow daily as we continue to allow the Holy Spirit to lead us and MATURE in holy living.

I challenge you to find any denomination where a local church lives as a family where new people do not often feel like outsiders until they become an active part, member of that family. There are always congregations of all denominations that do not act Christ-like all the time and offend new people as well as regular attenders. As long as we are human we are going to act more human than Christlike at time...as individuals and as congregations. And we need to ask forgiveness when we act like that.

I am offended at your judging my denomination as being more loyal to being Nazarene that to God. That is an unfair judgement of all of us because of a few you know, or think you know.

Baptists do things like Baptists, Lutherans do things like Lutherans, Catholics do things like Catholics. When I visit other denominations I expect them to do things they way they have been taught and do not get offended if a Baptist church acts like Baptists or preaches the Baptist doctrine in their services while I am there.

And, I imagine that if there is more than one Baptist church in town, they do not fellowship together as youth groups, either...unless there is an area rally set up by the denomination.

I am sorry that Nazarenes around you have hurt you and disappointed you. That happens more than we want it to, but it does happen.

And, finally, if we want our pastors and missionaries and layman to be trained to work in our church in the future, the best place for them to be trained is in a Nazarene school.

Many state schools, like pharmacy college for example, cost as much as Nazarene schools or even more. Try attending Harvard for $25,000 a year.

Being wise with money, when considering education, is not the issue when you have a call of God on your life for ministry. State schools cannot educate our preachers to be Nazarene preachers. And you have not attended all our colleges and heard all of the chapel messages to be able to judge and say ALL chapel services or NO chapel services teach our students to be wise with their money.

Is it okay for a medical doctor to owe $100,000 for an education to become a doctor, yet wrong for a pastor to owe $50,000 for his/her education to be a pastor?

Your statements may be true for YOU, where YOU live, but they are false many other locations of this world where there is a Church of the Nazarene. And your statements may be true in your mind, but influenced by your hurts and disappointments, not actual facts.

Barb

[Bob Evans]

In my humble opinion the Nazarene church is headed for disaster and here's why.

Nazarenes believe in Entire Sanctification which they call Christian Perfection *Truth is that no one will be entirely sanctified until they get to heaven. There is no documented place in the Bible where you see the words "Entire Sanctification" I challenge someone to find those two words together. It seems hard to have an article of faith that is not mentioned in the Bible.

Nazarenes are more loyal to a denomination then they are to God and the work of the church. They have to do things that are "nazarene" and most other churches and people that don't normally attend are highly offended and turned off. The answer most Nazarenes give when I say that is "well that's there fault for being offended" I mean you all can come on here and joke about it as "yah well we do that but oh well". Most Nazarenes treat it like it's a special club and it trickles down when you have all the youth groups of the Nazarene churches at odds with each other. They get into arguements about "how my church is better than yours". I know many teens that won't associate with the teens in the other Nazarene church across town. Here we go with the "special club" mentality.

Nazarene Schools cost nearly 25K a year to go and they have their admissions people flooding the churches talking all the kids into going. Where's the church when it comes to being wise with our money and teaching this generation the power of a dollar. You could go to a state school and live and home and be debt free instead of in debt 50K to sallie mae just to pay for your education. Oh but you never hear chapel services on being wise with your money because they are telling the students its ok to go into debt as long as it's at a Christian school. They claim "well its for God". Let's just slap God's name on anything and that will make it ok right? Hey parents start doing your Christian responsibility and teach your kids about money and how to use it wisely. THIS IS NOT BEING WISE WITH YOUR MONEY. 50-100K in debt is not wise. Maybe just maybe those kids could start putting that money into the church instad of the coffers of the colleges.

I challenge someone to prove that these statements are false

Mary

Welcome to naznet. I read your posts with much interest. Much of what you said has an element of truth to it. However, it seems to be colored alot by personal experience. I am not sure you can paint the entire denomination with some of the brushes your using.

I am also have children who took the less expensive route to higher education. I wish they would have chosen differently because of the Christian life world view that came with my Nazarene education. Their debt isn't that much lower than Nazarene kids coming out and had they gone they would probably be better in the long run.

Keep posting. Naznet is a great experience and education.

Bob

[Susan Unger]

What a hoot!

There's actually a lot of truth in Dr. Drury's comments.

(and District Camp is coming soon...I'm gonna check the GS's shoes out! :laughing

I didnt' get a chance to check out Dr Gunter's shoes, but her outfits were certainly snazzy :)

[Billy Cox]

Okay, I'll bite... btw, welcome to NazNet.

In my humble opinion the Nazarene church is headed for disaster and here's why.

Define 'disaster'. You will find some difference of opinion among Nazarenes here as to what constitutes disaster. For some, it is the loss of our self-appointed position as the 'Navy SEALS' of Christnedom - the elite followers sitting on the left and right side of Christ at the big potluck dinner to be held in heaven. For others 'disaster' would be waking up one day and realizing that the Spirit is shaking the world at someone else's party and we are still trying to conjure up the good old days that are long gone - or perhaps never really happened the way we remember them.

If on the other hand, disaster is mass exodus and dissolution of the denomination, I just don't see that happening. There are far less relevant, more narrow-minded and less-blessed denominations that are still in existence, paying their bills and generating more than a little activity.

Nazarenes believe in Entire Sanctification which they call Christian Perfection *Truth is that no one will be entirely sanctified until they get to heaven. There is no documented place in the Bible where you see the words "Entire Sanctification" I challenge someone to find those two words together. It seems hard to have an article of faith that is not mentioned in the Bible.

I recommend the book 'A Theology of Love' by Mildred Bangs Wynkoop. She presents a compelling case for exactly what you are saying. There are some prominent Nazarene commentators who blame her for singlehandedly 'killing' the holiness movement. She proposes a theology of holiness that is more Biblical than the amalgam of wishful thinking that was cooked up by the likes of Phoebe Palmer.

Nazarenes are more loyal to a denomination then they are to God and the work of the church.

This is a valid critique but is by no means universally true. However, thinking too highly of ourselves is probably the most dangerous thing that we Nazarenes do. The Nazarenes who are paying attention are well aware of this. You just won't see any more books in the same league as "Why I am a Nazarene and not..." explaining why the Church of the Nazarene is the pinnacle of all Truth.

Nazarene Schools cost nearly 25K a year to go and they have their admissions people flooding the churches talking all the kids into going. Where's the church when it comes to being wise with our money and teaching this generation the power of a dollar. You could go to a state school and live and home and be debt free instead of in debt 50K to sallie mae just to pay for your education. Oh but you never hear chapel services on being wise with your money because they are telling the students its ok to go into debt as long as it's at a Christian school. They claim "well its for God". Let's just slap God's name on anything and that will make it ok right? Hey parents start doing your Christian responsibility and teach your kids about money and how to use it wisely. THIS IS NOT BEING WISE WITH YOUR MONEY. 50-100K in debt is not wise. Maybe just maybe those kids could start putting that money into the church instad of the coffers of the colleges.

I'm not sure whether this is a genuine problem or just a math problem that doesn't factor in all the variables. I suspect it is the latter.

When Nazarene schools started drastically raising tuition in order to stay in business, the conventional wisdom was that they were going to price most Nazarenes out of a private education. That just hasn't happened.

I don't know that I can blame a school for selling someone $100,000 worth of education and room/board and the person then doing nothing with that education. People are not the sum of the classes they take.

I challenge someone to prove that these statements are false

There is plenty of truth in what you say, but it does not necessarily spell disaster for the Nazarenes.

[Donna Adams]

Yes my daughter could have gone to a state school and save a world of money....but money isnt everything to everyone. She grew and matured as a person and as a Christian, she made life long Christian friends at a Nazarene school. Yes it's costing her a fortune paying it all back, but I know she would NEVER change her experience. Besides all of that, God called her into CHRISTIAN SERVICE, not to work in the secular world, so her education had to be for that, a state school would not have been the place for her.
I too am offended by your judgemental post. I am not like all other Nazarenes.

[Cindi Hammons]

Also our son has never, to my knowledge spread this gossip around, or put down the school that he loved.


Anne, I truly say this as gently as I can...while your son may have never talked much about this situation, you just posted it on the internet where anyone around the world with an internet connection can read about it. You have given enough information about the situation and you have mentioned before where your son attended school, so many could identify the people involved in the incident. I don't know that it was such a good idea to post such details here on NazNet. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is just my thoughts on the issue.

I agree with you, however, that one cannot judge a whole group by individual situations. About that, you are absolutely correct. I would truly hate to be judge by the actions of others.

[Scott Hilton]

In my humble opinion the Nazarene church is headed for disaster and here's why.

Nazarenes believe in Entire Sanctification which they call Christian Perfection *Truth is that no one will be entirely sanctified until they get to heaven. There is no documented place in the Bible where you see the words "Entire Sanctification" I challenge someone to find those two words together. It seems hard to have an article of faith that is not mentioned in the Bible.

Nazarenes are more loyal to a denomination then they are to God and the work of the church. They have to do things that are "nazarene" and most other churches and people that don't normally attend are highly offended and turned off. The answer most Nazarenes give when I say that is "well that's there fault for being offended" I mean you all can come on here and joke about it as "yah well we do that but oh well". Most Nazarenes treat it like it's a special club and it trickles down when you have all the youth groups of the Nazarene churches at odds with each other. They get into arguements about "how my church is better than yours". I know many teens that won't associate with the teens in the other Nazarene church across town. Here we go with the "special club" mentality.

Nazarene Schools cost nearly 25K a year to go and they have their admissions people flooding the churches talking all the kids into going. Where's the church when it comes to being wise with our money and teaching this generation the power of a dollar. You could go to a state school and live and home and be debt free instead of in debt 50K to sallie mae just to pay for your education. Oh but you never hear chapel services on being wise with your money because they are telling the students its ok to go into debt as long as it's at a Christian school. They claim "well its for God". Let's just slap God's name on anything and that will make it ok right? Hey parents start doing your Christian responsibility and teach your kids about money and how to use it wisely. THIS IS NOT BEING WISE WITH YOUR MONEY. 50-100K in debt is not wise. Maybe just maybe those kids could start putting that money into the church instad of the coffers of the colleges.

I challenge someone to prove that these statements are false
Just out of curiosity, are you saying this from the perspective of someone inside the Nazarene church or outside? Any organization that has been around for a 100 years with as many people involved with it as the COTN has, will most likely at some point have made mistakes. I came to the COTN via the SBC church and I can guarantee you that.

As far as the Entire Sanctification argument, show me the word Trinity in scripture? Or maybe you don't believe that one either, since you only dissed the COTN and didn't give any history of your views, I guess I shouldn't assume what you believe.

I am sorry you feel the way you do, I have never met so many people focused on missions and the love of God in my life until I came to this denomination. I hope God can heal whatever pain you experienced from this denomination and I hope you pray for us, since you don't seem to think to much of us.

blessings and welcome to naznet
Scott

[David Pettigrew]

WHAT I LIKE ABOUT NAZARENES

(received via email)

- Keith Drury
Associate Professor of Religion
Indiana Wesleyan University
Marion, Indiana

My mother prayed two requests for her sons: (1) That they would not marry a Southerner. (2) That they not marry a Nazarene. So I was not brought up to admire Nazarenes, I came by it through life experience. I really like them, honest. Here's what I admire about Nazarenes:

1. Nazarenes have incredible denominational loyalty.

It's amazing-almost cult-like! When I used to work at my denomination's headquarters I was jealous of their leaders. When their leaders say jump their people jump. Sure, not as high as they used to-but they jump an inch or so, or at least they pretend they have just jumped a bit ago. The only religious folk I've seen with more loyalty than Nazarenes is the Salvation Army. How do they do this? I don't know but I admire their loyalty.

2. Nazarenes raise strong leaders.

Their denomination raises up their little boys to be General Superintendents and College Presidents - or if they can't make it, they can be a DS. Now they do that with their little girls too. It is amazing how many extra leaders they have running around the church waiting to lead something bigger. This helps us all since Nazarenes can export their excess inventory to other denominations. How do they do this? I bet Wesleyans would elect a Nazarene as General Superintendent next time if it were legal. Actually they have enough Generals and College Presidents to take over the entire holiness movement. I admire this about them.

3. Nazarenes have strong self-esteem.

They really believe they're the best. I recall preaching at the multi-thousand attendance Brown City (Missionary) camp in Michigan years ago where a dozen or so Nazarenes visited each night I preached sort of like "evangelist groupies." At the end of the week the entire group of Nazarenes arranged to meet with me to announce to me, "Do you know what? You're a good enough preacher to speak at Nazarene camps?" They did this with straight faces and in total innocence! They were so confident that Nazarene camps were at the top of the food chain they believed they were giving me the ultimate compliment. I admire Nazarenes for their self confidence.

4. Nazarenes talk a lot about holiness and sanctification.

I'm not sure they actually believe any differently than Wesleyans or live more holy lives but they sure talk more about these things lots more and I admire them for it.

5. Nazarenes have the best educational system in the family.

They are the educational kings in the holiness movement. While I think there may be three better individual schools outside the Nazarene church, there is no doubt in my mind that they have the very best total system of higher education and I admire them for it.

6. Nazarenes used to be more liberal than Wesleyans and now they're more conservative. I think they were right both times.

7. Nazarenes have the best dressed General Superintendents.

All their leaders are snazzy dressers but their Generals are the best of all. Just check a Nazarene General's shoes the next time you see one. Impressive! Only the Pope can beat Nazarene Generals. Of course that's why the Pope wears all that fancy paraphernalia - he's seen a live Nazarene General and knows he's in trouble.

Oh well.

A compliment is a compliment, backhanded or not (spoken as someone with permanent knuckle imprints on both cheeks!)

And, as Brittany Spears and Michael Jackson have taught us, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

Thanks, Keith.

[Marsha Lynn]

Mary,
......

I am offended at your judging my denomination as being more loyal to being Nazarene that to God. That is an unfair judgement of all of us because of a few you know, or think you know.

I too am offended by your judgemental post. I am not like all other Nazarenes.

Barb and Donna,

Why are you offended? Mary has apparently known people within the Church of the Nazarene who, in her eyes, fit her description. Does she know you? If not, then her description can't take you into account.

To me, Mary's statement is like saying that all people from southern Indiana are backwoods ignoramuses. If someone makes such a statement, it's not a personal assessment of MY intelligence and cultural standing. It's a generalized statement being made by someone who has never met me or my wonderful friends from southern Indiana. I don't take offense, I simply register the information that this person doesn't know and love the people of southern Indiana and their cultural values like I do and has apparently encountered at least one person who struck them as a backwoods ignoramus. Even if the person making the statement knows me personally and still thinks I'm a backwoods ignoramus, it doesn't make me one. It simply means we have different ideas of what constitutes an intelligent lifestyle.

I hope we don't all take offense every time someone slaps a negative label on us. There's so much to consider that's so much more interesting than our own fragile images when we discover that someone has done so. Such as, what prompted this label-slapping? Was it something WE did or something that someone else did in some other time or place? Unless, the person knows us very well and there's a chance we deserve that label, I don't think we need to take it personally.

Am I more loyal to my denomination than to God? Well, I'm pretty loyal. It will take more than general disgruntlement to get me out of the Church of the Nazarene -- something along the lines of a whack upside the head with a baseball bat. Perhaps, that truly is excessive loyalty. However, I'm pretty confident that if I ever receive such a whack and can trace it back to the will of God, I will obediently leave the Church of the Nazarene behind. When I surrendered my life, it was to the God of the universe, not the Church of the Nazarene, either in its local incarnation or international. Thus, Mary's assessment gives me something to think about, but doesn't actually describe me. I don't need to take offense. I simply need to monitor my words and actions to measure whether I could give such an impression to those watching my life.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Marsha,

I am a defender. Of my family. Of my church. Of things I believe in. I do not like people attacking my church in general, or my local church in general by referring to ALL Nazarenes, lumping me in that word ALL.

Maybe offended is not the right world. Aggravated? Tired of people's generalizations when they attack someone or something?

I also dislike it when people talk about teenagers in a way that makes all teenagers BAD.

Evidently this disgruntled person found NazNet, registered in April and waited around to vent her anger at the Church of the Nazarene in general. And that aggrevates me.

So, I guess it aggrevates me more than offends me. I guess I should have said, "it puts me on the defensive when you say that ALL..."

It also aggrevates me when someone picks out one little phrase of one of my posts and sets me straight...even if I need it. HA

Barb

[Marsha Lynn]

It also aggravates me when someone picks out one little phrase of one of my posts and sets me straight...even if I need it. HA

Barb

Sorry, Barb. It's just that your post and Donna's made my heart go out to Mary, who has probably already seen plenty of defensiveness in the church. Sometimes people who are hurting strike out at others. Hitting them back might make us feel better but certainly doesn't do anything to salve their wounds.

On the other hand, I have filled both the role of striking out in pain and being the one who was struck, and I haven't always reacted in exemplary ways. I'm in no position to stand in judgment of anyone else. I apologize.

Marsha

[Donna Adams]

One or two bad apples don't ruin the whole basket. Barb said it so much better than I did, or could. But I agree with her.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Barb, I feel like you do about our "zion." No person, or organization in the world is totally perfect-humanly speaking. But, as long as we teach, preach and live a life of Christlike holy living, Dwayne and I decided MANY years ago, we would remain in the Church of the Nazarene. That does not mean that in this whole wide world, there will never be church members, and certain churches, that become known as a church or person, that is not measuring up to the word of God, on which our denomination is based on. But, having only 1 2, 3, etc. in a church that are mean spirited critical etc. does not make the entire church or denomination that way. But, there are those that need healing, for wounds that have been inflicted on them.

Earlier, I told about one Nazarene in our educational system, that inflicted hurt on our son, but he nor we, have never held this against, as I say, "our zion." That was at least a dozen years ago.

Our son graduated from a state university, and is considering going back to school, to study religion, and become a professor. He was a tech at Vandy-setting up, live on line courses for those taking subjects by computer, and also teaching computer to Nashville school teachers one day per week. He left for a job that would give him more time to work on his music, since he had studied the Recording music Industry. Vandy media dept. has called him back for a day, when needed.

Maybe this will answer your question about what someone else referred to.

[Mary Labelle]

Ok i've heard some of your points. Here are some things to think about. When a doctor racks up 100K in loans for school and when he gets out he will be making almost that in one year I don't think that's unwise. He won't be bogged down in debt for years. If you are a missionary and have 50-60K in school debt how much will you be making in a year? How long will you be bogged down into debt. I challenge you all to read Dave Ramsey's total money makeover. You will get a new insight into the culture of debt that bogs most people (Christians) down. By the way, alot of people that go to Harvard and some big schools don't graduate with any debt because they come from wealthy families. I went to a Nazarene school and know people who have attended recently 2 other Nazarene schools. I can't speak for all of them but can speak for 3.

The comment about not finding the word trinity in the Bible. Ok how many denominations believe in the trinity? ALOT How many believe in entire sanctification? 1

I'm all for mission work to other countries, but it seems the church is neglecting our local neighborhoods while pushing to go work overseas. That's why the COTN in America is on the decline. People can be missionaries right here in America we don't have to go overseas. This isn't taught much in our churches. When we hear the word "MISSIONARY" we think of going to some other part of the world.

By the way, I've gone to the COTN for a number of years, attended a nazarene school and know many who have. I'm not just rattling off statistics that i dont know.

[Barbara Moulton]

The comment about not finding the word trinity in the Bible. Ok how many denominations believe in the trinity? ALOT How many believe in entire sanctification? 1

Actually, I can think of at least four denominations which believe in Entire Sanctification.

I have served in three of them. :)

[Hans Deventer]

The comment about not finding the word trinity in the Bible. Ok how many denominations believe in the trinity? ALOT How many believe in entire sanctification? 1

This last statement is wrong. But that would be a factual reply to an emotional statement.

[Mary Labelle]

Please tell me 3 denominations that have entire sanctification as an article of faith or what other denominations would have that's similar to that. I'm curious to see. I'm always happy to learn new information

[Barb Bouldrey]

The Salvation Army, The Wesleyan Church, the Church of God(Holiness), and the General Baptist churches all believe and teach sanctification. Even the Baptist and Assembly of God churches use the word sanctified to mean being holy. You would be surprised to learn that the doctrine of sanctification is in the articles of faith, the Discipline, of the Methodist Church, though they do not teach it much any more.

The Methodist pastor who has been a long time friend of our, brought his Discipline to John's office one day and said, "Look, John, our church believes in sanctification, too."

About our missionaries....we do not allow them to go to the mission field until they are free of debt. That is why some of our young people who are called to missions must wait to be assigned.

Many young people go to our Nazarene schools and today thank the Lord for their Christian education. I am one of them. Olivet did not make me a wonderful teacher, with a great career and income, because God gifted me as a teach and I have NOT taught many years. God wanted me at Olivet to meet John and be his partner in ministry these 37 years.

Some go to our Nazarene schools and it is a bad experience for them. And that is disappointing. Satan laughs when that happens.

I would not trade my years at Olivet for anything. I loved it. And it was worth the money.

Barb

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

It seems to me that Catholics go through a process, that is considered sanctification.

Question: "What do you believe and teach regarding the doctrine of the Trinity?"
Cauthron: Exactly what the Nazarene Manual affirms in Article 1 of the Articles of Faith: "We believe in one eternally existent, infinite God, sovereign of the universe; that He only is God, creative and administrative, holy in nature, attributes, and purpose; that He, as God, is Triune in essential being, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
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The word trinity, does not necessarily have to be in the Bible. We learn some things by common sense, and knowing what trinity means.
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I love the Church of the Nazarene, but there have been some COTN's and some mebers of the COTN, that I was not proud of. I never have thought of us as a cult. It is not the church, perse, that we love. It is the Bibical doctrines and beliefs that is taught in the COTN.
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Entire Sanctification could be called: Perfect love, totally surrended to God, Holiness of heart-that has the fruits of love to everyone, willing to help whenever it is with our power to do so, surrendered to His will--so many tings. It is definitely, not, two trips to an altar. In fact it does not havae to happen at a church altar.
It is a crisis experience, that we can go through at the time, we surrender our will to HIs--but, that does not make us a mature Christian. We have much growing to do, and people grow at different levels and different "speeds." Some may have the knowledge, and experience to grow faster than others. God is the judge, not us. It is as simple as any daily occurence that we accept, if we are ready to commit our lives to Him, with no questions ask--unknown bundle and all. My opinion. we basically do what we did when we were justified. Our sins up to that moment are forgiven. We just trust and believe in Him with our heart mind and soul--whatever that is.
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Do you think that every human that has ever lived has a little of the breath of God in them? That does not make them a Christian though. They have a choice, as to how, they will use that free gift of breath. ??????????

[Scott Hilton]

Ok i've heard some of your points. Here are some things to think about. When a doctor racks up 100K in loans for school and when he gets out he will be making almost that in one year I don't think that's unwise. He won't be bogged down in debt for years. If you are a missionary and have 50-60K in school debt how much will you be making in a year? How long will you be bogged down into debt. I challenge you all to read Dave Ramsey's total money makeover. You will get a new insight into the culture of debt that bogs most people (Christians) down. By the way, alot of people that go to Harvard and some big schools don't graduate with any debt because they come from wealthy families. I went to a Nazarene school and know people who have attended recently 2 other Nazarene schools. I can't speak for all of them but can speak for 3.

The comment about not finding the word trinity in the Bible. Ok how many denominations believe in the trinity? ALOT How many believe in entire sanctification? 1

I'm all for mission work to other countries, but it seems the church is neglecting our local neighborhoods while pushing to go work overseas. That's why the COTN in America is on the decline. People can be missionaries right here in America we don't have to go overseas. This isn't taught much in our churches. When we hear the word "MISSIONARY" we think of going to some other part of the world.

By the way, I've gone to the COTN for a number of years, attended a nazarene school and know many who have. I'm not just rattling off statistics that i dont know.

Mary,

Your statistics may not be ramblings, but what they are not; are correct. Feel free to ask questions and gain knowledge from some wonderful people on this site, instead of jumping in with false stats like the number of church's that hold to the sanctification teachings we hold to. There is much beauty and truth in what the COTN teaches, the people in the COTN are also more than willing to discuss those doctrines with you or at least, that has been my experience.

I know my church is highly involved with both local and international missions as well. So again, it seems as though you would rather make general statements as a whole on the denomination. I guess my only question to you would be, other than pointing out what you feel are the COTN's errors, what are you doing about them to make things better?

blessings

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Isn't it at least a little ironic that an article by a respected non-Nazarene writer about what he likes about Nazarenes has drifted off to being a discussion about what someone else doesn't like.

Since I like Drury's writings so much it pleases me that he finds things about our Zion to like - even as he pokes some good natured fun at us.:)

[Barbara Moulton]

Please tell me 3 denominations that have entire sanctification as an article of faith or what other denominations would have that's similar to that. I'm curious to see. I'm always happy to learn new information

The Salvation Army
We believe it is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified and that their whole spirit, soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord.

Wesleyan Church
14. Sanctification: Initial, Progressive, Entire
236. We believe that sanctification is that work of the Holy Spirit by which the child of God is separated from sin unto God and is enabled to love God with all the heart and to walk in all His holy commandments blameless. Sanctification is initiated at the moment of justification and regeneration. From that moment there is a gradual or progressive sanctification as the believer walks with God and daily grows in grace and in a more perfect obedience to God. This prepares for the crisis of entire sanctification which is wrought instantaneously when believers present themselves as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God, through faith in Jesus Christ, being effected by the baptism with the Holy Spirit who cleanses the heart from all inbred sin. The crisis of entire sanctification perfects the believer in love and empowers that person for effective service. It is followed by lifelong growth in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The life of holiness continues through faith in the sanctifying blood of Christ and evidences itself by loving obedience to God's revealed will.

Church of the Nazarene
You know the statements I'm sure.

Free Methodist
XII. Entire Sanctification
A/119. Entire sanctification is that work of the Holy Spirit, subsequent to regeneration, by which the fully consecrated believers, upon exercise of faith in the atoning blood of Christ, are cleansed in that moment from all inward sin and empowered for service. The resulting relationship is attested by the witness of the Holy Spirit and is maintained by faith and obedience. Entire sanctification enables believers to love God with all their hearts, souls, strength, and minds, and their neighbor as themselves, and it prepares them for greater growth in grace.

Edited to add that I have served in three of these denominations. All three taught sanctification, maybe using different language but the teaching is there. I would say that the CofN seems to give it the greatest emphasis as a defining belief.

[Billy Cox]

Actually, I can think of at least four denominations which believe in Entire Sanctification.

I have served in three of them. :)

Whether the number is 1 or 4 is immaterial. When I read the Apostle's Creed, I see Trinity, but I don't see entire sanctification.

[Barbara Moulton]

Whether the number is 1 or 4 is immaterial. When I read the Apostle's Creed, I see Trinity, but I don't see entire sanctification.


I was simply responding to the assertion that The CofN is the only denomination which teaches entires sanctification.

That statement was incorrect.

[Greg Farra]

Whether the number is 1 or 4 is immaterial. When I read the Apostle's Creed, I see Trinity, but I don't see entire sanctification.

That's because it's not in the Creed. :basic03

[Greg Farra]

Mary,

My son looked at going to college at Mount Vernon but ended up at The Ohio state University. By the time he got grants and scholarships, the price at the two schools were pretty close, within a few thousand per year. He is living at home, so he is saving money. My daughter will be starting at MVNU in August. If you paid attention in school, get good grades, and attend a Nazarene church, you can shave a lot off.

My experience with the COTN has been pretty good. It's not perfect, but this is where God led us. We have been Nazarenes four years now, and I am studying for ministry. Sorry if you had some bad experiences. I had some pretty bad ones in the Lutheran church, but churches are full of imperfect people (even anctified ones!). I did not burn my bridges with Lutheranism, as I still have friends and family there as well as serve on renewal weekends.

[James Thurber]

I agree with Mary on the debt thing. The Bible says not to do it. And before Dave Ramsey, Larry Burkett had the same thing to say about churches, students, etc. using debt to pay for "the Lord's work". He coted many instances of churches and people called into ministry or missions that ended up not doing anything for decades because they financed with debt. I'm friends with a pastor who has inherited a church that can't minister effectively because most of their tithes and offerings go to paying a hugh balloon mortage that barring God's direct intervention will not be paid off in any member's lifetime.

I think the bottom line (no pun intended) is, as Dr. Drury notes, that we Nazarenes have a high standard - nothing short of complete holiness - to follow, and we don't do anyone any favors when we think we can get away with using or following the world's way of doing business. :)

[Cindi Hammons]

Barbara, I can add two more to your four!--Cindi

Churches of Christ in Christian Union

Salvation has been made possible by Christ's atoning death on the cross of Calvary. By His death and resurrection Christ has won a four-fold salvation for us:

1. Regeneration in which we are forgiven of all sins and baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ.

2. Entire sanctification in which we are baptized with the Holy Spirit and cleansed from the carnal mind.

3. Growth in grace after sanctification in which we walk in new light as it is given and are made more and more like Jesus.

The Missionary Church

HOLY SPIRIT.
He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, regenerating all who repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. He sanctifies (they practice entire sanctification), empowers, teaches, guides and comforts the believers (John 16:7,8, 12-15).

[Gina Stevenson]

To those which Barbara & Cindi have added, let's also add the C&MA [Christian & Missionary Alliance], where one of their well known 4-fold beliefs is: saviour, sanctifier, healer & coming king. ;)

'Guess a lot more denoms than one might think glean that from the Scriptures ... naturally.

[Scott Hilton]

Whether the number is 1 or 4 is immaterial. When I read the Apostle's Creed, I see Trinity, but I don't see entire sanctification.
Her statement was referring to the point that ES is not found in scripture, so are numerous teachings including the Trinity not found in scripture that many different theological practices hold to. Imputed righteousness being one from a Reformed perspective I can think of right off the top of my head. The point being, not everything we "label" as a doctrine in a theological setting is going to be found word for word in scripture. That would be why we read, pray and study over His word.

blessings

and just to add to this Billy,

If you can "see" the trinity after studying scriptures in the Apostles Creed, I can honestly say I can "see" Entire Sanctification in;

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,

Either way, from the creeds I have read.....the word "trinity" does not appear in those either.

[Mary Labelle]

Ok so why do the Nazarenes use words such as "Christian perfection". I hear the statements "Well the Bible doesn't mean perfect like that". Ok great but what about all the non Churched people who come in. In today's society the word "perfect" means something totally different. So we can either have the attitude that "Well we don't need to change our methods because of culture" or we could explain it better and not use words such as perfect love or Christian perfection. Using words like this only alienates people who are not familiar with the church. Use terminology that people understand. Remember if you think that churches just exist for the ones who are already saved then you have a skewed view of what our jobs as Christians are. We are to bring in un-churched and teach them things in a way they can understand. What happens when a un=churched person asks about entire sanctification? What if their not even saved yet? The idea of ES cheapens what Jesus did on the cross. Just think of what it would be like if we stopped worrying about ES and focused on getting people saved.


By the way on the college front, Local state universities you can attend for $100 a credit hour, that's 3000 for the whole year as opposed to 25,000 a year at our Nazarene schools. I'm not a math expert by any means but considering alot of students aer going 5 years now, I'd rather take the 15K which probably most of it would be covered by pell grant and state grants rather than the 125K. Most of the students who get a good chunk paid for are the students who scored high on the ACT. Truth of the matter is is that alot of kids who are smart dont test well. So you can get good grades in high school and what happens is the Naz schools give alot of money your first year to get you in the door and then take most of it away your second year. Also if you're a pastors kid or missionary kid or you know someone you can get some more money for school. If you think that's not true ask alot of kids.

Alot of the reason kids go to Naz schools is because it's pushed so much in churches, and well their friends from the youth group are going there. Some churches I've been in the kids who go to a Naz school are looked at as better then the one who was smart and went to a state school. I know some of you know what I'm talking about. We wonder why alot of people can't tithe today? The word is DEBT. Don't go judging the person who has 5000 in credit card debt while they have 50K in college loans for NazU. Just think what tithing would be like if we were payin that money that was from college loans into the church? We wouldn't ever have to ask for special offerings because we would have the resources we need.

[David Showalter]

Mary shares,
Also if you're a pastors kid or missionary kid or you know someone you can get some more money for school. If you think that's not true ask alot of kids.

Mary, thanks for the new information. I am 3rd generation Nazarene, have pastored in our great church for 26 years, have 3 children, two just finishing up college, and one still in, and I have never known that my children got extra money, sure would have been nice to know.

p.s. where were we suppose to sign up for said money?

[Cindi Hammons]

By the way on the college front, Local state universities you can attend for $100 a credit hour, that's 3000 for the whole year as opposed to 25,000 a year at our Nazarene schools.

Mary, you are very fortunate to find any type of college with tuition that cheap. Both state universities within 45 minutes of my house (Ohio University, Shawnee State University) cost more than the equivalent of $100/hour. SSU costs around $243/semester hour, and Ohio U. costs around $137/Quarter hour which equals out to around $197/semester hour. Ohio U. in-state/on campus fees $17,223, out-of state, $26,187. For someone in my house to attend Marshall U. (35 miles away) which is a WV state university, it would cost them $23,172 to live on campus and attend full time. While you are correct about Naz schools being expensive, MVNU runs a little over $552/semester hour, the total tuition to live on campus and attend full-time is $25,040. Ohio State is $16,262 (if you live in state), out of state fees $21,285.

Actually, I'm glad this topic came up as I have a soon-to-be H.S. Junior who is starting to look at colleges. What state are you in that has such inexpensive college education?

[Mary Labelle]

It's not new info. Most of the schools offer about 3500 a year for pastors children and significantly more for kids of missionaries. Or if you're in a church that does matching. What if your church is poor and can't afford to do that? Well than you don't get that money either.

[Mary Labelle]

Just looked at Illinois state university since there is a Naz school there. At the University of Illinois for in state tuition is 160 per credit hour. Let's look at Olivet, looks like it's around $710 per credit hour You get these totals by dividing the yearly tuition by 30 credits because most students take on average 15 sh.

[Cindi Hammons]

Cool, are the U. of Illinois fees just tuition? Or does that include Room and Board? The numbers that I gave $/hour was just tuition, but the complete numbers were complete costs of living on campus...which is what my kids would have to do if they attended a Naz school.

Just checked MVNU...$552/credit hour.
University of Kentucky...$468/credit hour.
WVU...$214/credit hour (in-state), $658/credit hour (out of state)
Illinois State University $256/credit hour Rate Table (http://www.comptroller.ilstu.edu/studentaccounts/tuition-rates/rate-tables.shtml#Table_F) which was very hard to locate.
University of Michigan (I can't believe I looked up their info!!!)...$745 for the first credit hour and $399/credit hour for the rest.

Other than MVNU, they were all state universities and all in-state rates. Out of state rates are generally around double or more. Other than Illinois State, MVNU wasn't too far out of whack from the rest.

[Mary Labelle]

If you take the tuition rate which is 18,770 plus the general fee of like 500 bucks which i did with Olviet you get 19220 and then divide that by 30 sh, you get 640 per credit hour.

[Cindi Hammons]

Thanks for encouraging me to look around. It has actually been very enlightening to me and has surprised me that MVNU is pretty much right on track with other schools my daughter might choose...other than living here at home.

[Mary Labelle]

Kentucky is 3500 for the fee per semester so that's 233 per SH

[Cindi Hammons]

Truly, not that it matters, this is from UK's website.

Part-time Students
Tuition and Fees 2007-2008 for Semester Full-Time Fee
Fee Per Credit Hour
Resident $468.43
Nonresident $1,046.43

I'm not going to go here anymore, because I don't want get into some kind of contest..or whatever. I appreciate the opportunity to look further into the cost of college education. As a current graduate student, I know that college can be very expensive...and not getting any less so.

Blessings on you and yours.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Part of this thread led to a discussion about tuition cost. I never knew until this week, that a pastor's child, or missionaries child, got. help.
I think Philip got $100 from th district, but not $6,000. We are paying $350 per month for Philip's ed loans. We paid our part off long ago, and have now taken his over. He is planning to go back for a Master's now.
I think he has gotten the feeling of wanting to be a prof, and wants to get his Master's in Religion. He must have enjoyed teaching one day a week at Vanderbilt. They called him back one day, recently to teach a computer class to Memphis City School teachers.

[Billy Cox]

Mary shares,
Also if you're a pastors kid or missionary kid or you know someone you can get some more money for school. If you think that's not true ask alot of kids.

Mary, thanks for the new information. I am 3rd generation Nazarene, have pastored in our great church for 26 years, have 3 children, two just finishing up college, and one still in, and I have never known that my children got extra money, sure would have been nice to know.

p.s. where were we suppose to sign up for said money?

Missionary kids get a free ride...not pastor's kids.

[James Thurber]

Ok so why do the Nazarenes use words such as "Christian perfection". I hear the statements "Well the Bible doesn't mean perfect like that". Ok great but what about all the non Churched people who come in. In today's society the word "perfect" means something totally different. So we can either have the attitude that "Well we don't need to change our methods because of culture" or we could explain it better and not use words such as perfect love or Christian perfection. Using words like this only alienates people who are not familiar with the church. Use terminology that people understand. Remember if you think that churches just exist for the ones who are already saved then you have a skewed view of what our jobs as Christians are. We are to bring in un-churched and teach them things in a way they can understand. What happens when a un=churched person asks about entire sanctification? What if their not even saved yet? The idea of ES cheapens what Jesus did on the cross. Just think of what it would be like if we stopped worrying about ES and focused on getting people saved.

Hi Mary,

Until people (you, me, or anyone else for that matter) meet face to face the deep, dark, black, total evil that resides at the very core of our being, even after being saved, they will not understand either the need for, or the blessing of entire sanctification. Our wickedness drills in a lot deeper than we think. Many people (Nazarenes included) never discover the true depth of their evil nature. The ones that have, understand why the Wesleyan-Holiness movement has something more to offer than just another church building on Main St. I'll leave the historians to argue about who did or didn't kill off the holiness movement. As for me, I want the divine Roto-Rooter guy to drive his sewage truck into my life to pump clean and disinfect the cesspool surrounding my heart. That's what Entire Sanctification does.

Remember, we worship the Triune God. Far from cheapening what Jesus did on the cross, Entire Sanctification fulfils his promise regarding what God the Holy Spirit would do for us. We do not have to chug along life being continually dogged by sin. :laughing

We cannot put the cart before the horse. If people are not saved, then it is too early for the second blessing. The focus for them is to preach to them the first blessing...turn to Jesus and be saved. Pursuing the un-saved is important, but it is not the "be all, end all" of the church, with the saved becoming afterthoughts. It's just as much a problem to focus on the lost at the expense of the saved as it is to focus on the saved at the expense of the lost. The church has several missions and they need to be kept in balance.

As far as changing our terminology goes, there is a teaching function that we overlook. I hear statements like this fairly frequently, but we forget a important thing...people are not born with a full vocabulary...they are taught it over time. The reason people don't know terms is because they are not taught them. We preachers and teachers don't need to change the language because the common culture doesn't use the terms like E.S. And just because the schools don't teach our kids words like sanctification and perfection doesn't mean we need to abandon the terminology, it just means we need to step up and re-teach it. :)

Nazarenes use a variety of terms to completely describe what God has done for man through Christian perfection. These terms include Christian Perfection, Entire Sanctification; the Double Cure; the Second Blessing; Baptism of the Holy Spirit, etc. John Wesley used the term Christian Perfection, and although he was misunderstood by others in the Christian community, he still saw it as scriptural. The killing off of our inbreed sin nature and its continual harassment is what Christian Perfection and Entire Sanctification is about. It is a blessing from God and I'm very grateful that he has provided it for us. The Nazarene church may be headed for disaster, but it will not be because they focus on Entire Sanctification, but because they abandon it. :)

[Mary Labelle]

http://minprep.norcal.org/

Click on the Application for a Minister. Question 13 states "How many have been sanctified in the last two years under your watch".

I didn't know there was a scoreboard. I don't agree that this ? should be asked but if one should be asked maybe try "How many have been SAVED under your watch".

Is anyone else outraged by this? Surely there has to be some Nazarenes that think that is crazy.

[Greg Farra]

http://minprep.norcal.org/

Click on the Application for a Minister. Question 13 states "How many have been sanctified in the last two years under your watch".

I didn't know there was a scoreboard. I don't agree that this ? should be asked but if one should be asked maybe try "How many have been SAVED under your watch".

Is anyone else outraged by this? Surely there has to be some Nazarenes that think that is crazy.

Mary,

I'm currently studying for ministry at the ripe old age of 48. No denomination is perfect. At first glance, some things may look crazy or like a scorecard. But when someone is looking to fulfill their call in ministry, there are denominational factors involved. While I'm not crazy about keeping numbers, there is a place to ask ministers about their activity. The application also asks about finances, divorces, how many times someone has preached, etc. This all part of a larger process to give Credential Boards information on applicants. No system is perfect, as it involves imperfect people.

[Laurie Florence]

Mary

Have you tried praying about sanctification? Have you asked God if this is something He wants for you?

You may be surprised at the result.

Blessings,
Laurie

[Scott Hilton]

Mary,

We get it, you don't like things the way they are done.

Is this even what this thread is about?

[James Thurber]

http://minprep.norcal.org/

Click on the Application for a Minister. Question 13 states "How many have been sanctified in the last two years under your watch".

I didn't know there was a scoreboard. I don't agree that this ? should be asked but if one should be asked maybe try "How many have been SAVED under your watch".

Is anyone else outraged by this? Surely there has to be some Nazarenes that think that is crazy.

Hi Mary,

There are two issues involved in your post. First, is it an outrageous question? Would it be outrageous for a hospital who was hiring a neurosurgeon to ask how many successful brain surgeries he had performed? If you needed surgery, would you want to know the surgeon's qualifications? You focus on the saving part of a ministers work, but as I mentioned in yesterday's post, there is more to the Christian ministry than just getting people saved and into the last pew at church. Nazarene ministers also care about what happens to them once they've been saved. That is Christian growth, discipleship, and sanctification.

The second issue is what are the Biblical qualifications to be a minister. Paul gave a list to Timothy (1 Tim 3) and Titus (Titus 1:6-9 ). He also addressed the issue in 1 Cor. 3:5-8. Sanctifying is not called out specifically, but it does fit in the categories of "persuading" and "watering".

Questions like #13 provide a wonderful opportunity to look at our thinking and reactions and ask ourselves if we're missing something important in our lives. I don't agree with everything the church puts to paper, but I do learn alot when I think their viewpoint through. If I were a betting man, I bet you would learn something very valuable about yourself if you stopped and asked yourself what it is about that question that really bugs you. The scorecard aspect is only masking what is really eating you up.

Jim

[Glenda Harvey]

Just looked at Illinois state university since there is a Naz school there. At the University of Illinois for in state tuition is 160 per credit hour. Let's look at Olivet, looks like it's around $710 per credit hour You get these totals by dividing the yearly tuition by 30 credits because most students take on average 15 sh.

Mary,

If a family lives close enough to a State University for the student to live at home than it is considerably cheaper to attend a State University. However most State Universities charge a higher room and board rate than many Christian Colleges and Universities. Also many State Colleges and Universities do not have enough dorms and many students have to rent off campus housing which is usually more expensive than dormitory living. This closes the gap somewhat which is why some here are saying that there is not that much difference in the cost of their child going to a Christian University or to a State University. Each family and each student must weigh the pros and cons and decide through prayer and practical decision making what is best for them. I'm sorry your experience left you bitter but I know of people who went to State Colleges who were also disappointed in their decision.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Mary, our son attended a Nazarene school for three years, and got a foundation there, that he probably would have not gotten in a state school. He also, got a good "core" of friends, there, also.
But, he changed his major there and then transferred to a state school and changed it again. So, after five and one half years, he still did not have a degree--due to changing majors. He later took the two courses he needed, and got his BS degree.

But, something at home, and possibly at the Christian school was installed in him. He wants to get Master's now at nearly 33 yrs. old. I was surpised when he said, Religion, wa what he wanted it in, and he wants to be a professor teaching religous courses.

I doubt his studying the Recording Music Industry at a state university, put that desire in him.

after bring at at Nazarene school a few months, he broke up with the girl that he had dated off and an, since 10th grade. They had told me, that they planned to become engaged the next Christmas. She was in school in the KC Area. He called and told me that she was pulling him down. I don't think the state U. would have caused him to do this.

Sometimes, I would like to talk with you about sanctification, but will not, unless you want me to. None of us are head perfect.