Holiness in the marketplace

[Marsha Lynn]

I have a hypothetical question for you.

Scenario #1:

You and your spouse share the lawncare chores around the house but you usually do the actual mowing. One Saturday you both have been working all day on various tasks off the to-do list. You want to mow before dark and have been keeping your eye on the time but are also trying to accomplish some other tasks. Your spouse comes to you and says, "The yard is looking awfully scraggy. Are you going to mow soon?" You respond that you're working as fast as you can on what you're doing and will mow as soon as you're done. Your spouse then says in a tone of disapproval, "Well, I thought we would go together to visit my parents, but I guess I'll have to go alone." This is the first you knew of any plans to visit your in-laws.

How do you respond?

What is the best conceivable response you can imagine?

What type of mindset would it take to be able to respond in that "best possible way"?

Scenario #2:

It's a week later. The grass has grown again. You and your spouse are once again doing yardwork. You know that there are plans for the evening so you're determined to get the mowing done by 5 pm. It takes an hour to mow. Around 3:30 you set aside what you're doing and start to pull out the mowing equipment. You hear the sound of the phone ringing through the open windows and your spouse goes to answer the phone. This puts you in a quandry. If you wait to start mowing, you may risk finishing late -- again. But if you start the mower, the noise might interfere with the phone conversation going on inside. You come up with the compromise of running the relatively quiet string trimmer in order to at least get a start on things. As you finish that task and are patiently waiting for the "all clear" signal following the phone call, your spouse comes out and in a tone of disapproval says, "Well, that was loud?" Huh? What was loud? The phone call? No, it turns out that the trimmer is the source of annoyance. Your choices made out of consideration (to mow early and then, in light of the phone call, to trim first in order to make less noise while still getting a start on the mowing) were judged to spring from a lack of consideration.

Same questions:

How do you respond?

What is the best conceivable response you can imagine?

What type of mindset would it take to be able to respond in that "best possible way"?

I think the natural response is to see that an injustice has been done to you and respond in a way that rebukes the one who has unjustly rebuked you. If holiness enables us to respond with greater love and less judgment, what does a "holy" response look like in these situations?

--------------------
Some scripture that comes to mind:

PR 15:1 A gentle answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Mt 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

MT 5:5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

I PE 2:20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

RO 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"* says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."*

RO 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

2CO 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

For husbands:
EPH 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

For wives:
1PE 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Well, Marsha,

What a sweet-spirited holiness woman would do is say, "I am sorry, dear. I was trying not to make noise and still get the lawn done." and, "I am sorry dear, I did not realize we were going anywhere."

What Barbara Bouldrey, a sanctified, holiness, strong-willed wife would say is, "Hey, we have a communication problem here and you have an attitude problem. We need to sit down and talk about why this is not working and why you are being so critical of me."

Holiness does not remove temper. These things would make me mad. But my sanctified temper would be a lot different than the temper I had before allowing the Holy Spirit to cleanse me and mold me and grow me. My response would be softer now than it would have been 36 years ago when we first got married because I have matured as an adult and as a Christian over those years.

Actually, in the first instance, I would probably say, "John, I am sorry. I must have forgotten that you told me you wanted to go visit your parents. I wish you had reminded me earlier. But you do not have to be so harsh about it. " I would still get angry with him. I still would feel we needed to discuss the lack of communication about this situation.

Being submissive is not the same as taking abuse and keeping silent. In both cases the husband has an attitude problem and is not showing love. He is being rude. She had a right to explain her side of it and try to get them to communicate better.

Barb

[Hans Deventer]

Marsha,

If these things happened, my spouse and me definately needed to talk!

For starters, I am bad in improvising. So I'll always try to start a Saturday or any day off with the question, "what's the planning"? What do you want to do today? What do I want that you need to know of? What needs to done and who is going to do what? I found keeping to that "drill" does miracles for our relationship. One of the most common traps is to think that your spouse knows and considers obvious what YOU know and consider obvious. So we learned to communicate.

The way of holiness, therefore, to me would be to accept the situation for the time being, but to get down to the underlying principles as soon as we can, for something is absolutely going wrong.

In fact, when I read about this woman, I'm thanking God I'm not married to one like that.

[Bruce Carriker]

Sometimes I'm so glad I don't have to worry about these things.

[BobHunt]

Seems to me there should be some more communication around there, and if the spouse wanted her husband to visit with her, she should have told him earlier! When married couples dont talk and share, all types of things come in to a marriage, and not comminicating magnifies them!

[Barbara Moulton]

You know what I think is VERY intersting Marsha? You were very careful not to identify the spouses by gender.

But Barb responded on the basis that it was the man making complaining about the visit to his parents being impacted. Bob assumed it was the woman complaining about the visit to her parents being impacted.

Very interesting.

[BobHunt]

But Barbara, she said someone went to answer the phone and I immediately thought of the woman.....sorry! grins!

[Marsha Lynn]

Well, Marsha,

What a sweet-spirited holiness woman would do is say, "I am sorry, dear. I was trying not to make noise and still get the lawn done." and, "I am sorry dear, I did not realize we were going anywhere."

What Barbara Bouldrey, a sanctified, holiness, strong-willed wife would say is, "Hey, we have a communication problem here and you have an attitude problem. We need to sit down and talk about why this is not working and why you are being so critical of me."
So is it better (more biblical, more pleasing to God, better for you, better for the other person) to respond with a sweet and gentle spirit of meekness or to hold the other person accountable for their rude words?

Should our goal as holiness people be a sweet spirit or a spirit that stands up against injustice and says, "That's not right. You can't treat me like that. I won't put up with it"? And how far should one person go to force another to be kind? Is it possible to force someone to be kind?

[Marsha Lynn]

You know what I think is VERY intersting Marsha? You were very careful not to identify the spouses by gender.

But Barb responded on the basis that it was the man making complaining about the visit to his parents being impacted. Bob assumed it was the woman complaining about the visit to her parents being impacted.

Very interesting.
I assume that is because Barb's spouse is a man and Bob's is a woman. Thus, if each of them cast themselves as the person doing the mowing, as proposed, they did the correct gender assignment.

Unless, of course, you want to allow some wriggle room on the man-woman marriage thing.

:p

Marsha

P.S. You're right. I attempted to make the scenario as gender-neutral as possible so that anyone could cast themselves in the title role, even, hopefully, people like me who never run a lawnmower.

[BobHunt]

We have been married 27 years and my wife has mowed lawn maybe once, thats it!

[Marsha Lynn]

You don't get off the hook that easy! I set the scenario in the marriage relationship in order to avoid people opting to just walk away from the rude person without looking back. But that's certainly not the only setting for it.

Try this one:

You love your job. Most of the time, anyway. You work independently for the most part. However, there's a monthly accountability meeting where you and your co-workers report the month's progress and make plans for the future. These meetings are chaired by someone with a high-power personality. This person is quite congenial in most settings, but becomes rude during the meetings, cutting people off in mid-word, correcting them, accusing them of interrupting if they try to insert a comment at the wrong time. People tell you that things have gone on like this for years, that it used to be even worse, that this person has mellowed with time. Those who can't handle it quit. Those who stay have done so because they're not going to be driven away from an otherwise-wonderful job by one painful hour a month and because the rude chairperson is well-liked in spite of being a tyrant at the meetings.

You are at one of these monthly meetings and have some input to provide on the topic of discussion. You start to talk but before you can finish even one sentence are subjected to one of those withering comments about your input not being relevant to the topic at hand.

How do you respond?

What is the best conceivable response you can imagine?

What type of mindset would it take to be able to respond in that "best possible way"?

Sometimes I'm so glad I don't have to worry about these things.

[Barb Bouldrey]

You are right, Marsha, I was placing myself in the role of the offended spouse, not the rude spouse.

I have 6 younger brothers. I have never mowed a lawn in my life. But then, they never changed the sheets. cleaned the bathroom, dusted the furniture, ran the sweeper or mopped the floors.

I beleive you can stand up to a wrong attitude in love and kindness and gentleness...but it takes a lot of dependence on the Holy Spirit. It is hard not to argue when confronting, but it is possible.

Barb

[Barb Bouldrey]

P.S.

We have been taught conflict management for the pastoral ministry. We have been through marriage enrichment seminars.

Most of the time it is important to confront and work through attitudes if a marriage is to survive.

In your senario, the rude spouse could very well be a Christian. Christians are not always kind, gentle and loving. Even holiness preachers and their spouses have unkind arguments occasionally. (and I won't mention names. LOL)

Barb

[Marsha Lynn]

Several years ago, during a spiritual crisis point, I signed up for an experimental program in "Sermon on the Mount" living. Since I'd been warned plenty of times that you can't really turn the other cheek and go the second mile and all that because people will walk all over you, I took the precaution of adding a couple of clauses to the agreement.

1. I only signed on for 50 years. That's it. After that, I'm a free agent. I think I have around 40 to go.

2. I'm signed on as a volunteer for the experiment and can opt out at any time if it becomes evident that this lifestyle truly doesn't work.

It turns out that "Sermon on the Mount" living takes a while to fully implement. Right now, it's the "turn the other cheek" situations that are puzzling to me. When someone reaches out and verbally slaps me in the face, my "fight or flight" instinct jumps into action and prompts a strong reaction. I'm trying to figure out how to overcome that response.

I realize that there's something seriously wrong when someone slaps you on the cheek, something that needs to be fixed. However, the Sermon on the Mount doesn't include much about fixing up other people. It's more about our own response.

The posts here that advocate working on the relationship so that the slaps no longer occur are tempting to me, although that's not always an option, depending on who's doing the slapping. (It's not always a family member. Sometimes it's someone who doesn't give a whit about their relationship with you.) As I contemplated this, I wondered if it was time to take option #2 above and implement conflict management tools in order to gain a little respect and cut down on the cheek-slapping. However, there are several things against that option.

1. I'm not bleeding yet. It's not like I'm really experiencing that much cheek-slapping in my life. (Maybe that's only because I haven't mastered the technique of turning the other cheek, yet.)

2. Barb pointed out that there are conflicts even in the lives of people who use conflict-management tools. If other responses don't guarantee better results, why switch?

3. I haven't finished the experiment yet. I still haven't figured out how turning the other cheek really works. I can't see quitting the experiment until I thoroughly implement the lifestyle and prove for myself that it doesn't work.

Barb's alternative response for the sweet, wimpy saint (as opposed to the strong-willed, 21st-century woman) was to apologize for having one's cheek where it could be slapped. I don't think that's the response I'm looking for. Apologizing casts the slap as being somehow legitimate, deserved in some way. And it's not. Being in the path when someone starts swinging at random targets is not a reason to apologize.

How does one respond to a verbal slap with something that basically adds up to, "I felt that slap and I realize you might do it again, but I'm sticking around anyway"? That's what I'm trying to figure out. I suspect it involves humor and grace but I can't seem to quite get a grasp on it, particularly when my cheek is still smarting from the blow.

Marsha

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

i'm just now reading this thread.
Very good - insightful and i've learned a few things.

Thanks

btw - i love cutting grass. *laughs*

[Barbara Moulton]

How does one respond to a verbal slap with something that basically adds up to, "I felt that slap and I realize you might do it again, but I'm sticking around anyway"? That's what I'm trying to figure out. I suspect it involves humor and grace but I can't seem to quite get a grasp on it, particularly when my cheek is still smarting from the blow.

Marsha

For me, it helps to remember that there are probably many times when Carl has felt a verbal slap from me.

[Barb Bouldrey]

First of all, a sweet, gentle answer does not always equate as "wimpy." I did not mean to imply that. Some people are just naturally sweet and gentle and meek people.

A lot of these responses have to do with personality as well as holiness. A lot of these responses have to do with love and commitment.

If I attend church with an aggressive rude person who tends to give me verbal slaps I have to learn how to deal with it and not run from it.

In one of our pastorates we had a lady who was deliberately rude to me. I would extend my hand to greet her and she would fold her arms and march right by me. I felt slapped. I was embarassed and angered. I would go home fuming and march around the house telling God how angry I was, how hurt I was, how embarassed I was and what I wish I could do and say to slap back.

Once I calmed down, I then would ask the Lord to help me forgive her, love her and be able to extend my hand the next time I saw her. And He would help me do that.

She treated me that way every service until she slammed away from the church to never return.

An introverted personality will usually take more abuse than an extroverted personality....even a sanctified introverted personality or sanctified extroverted personality.

The introvert has trouble standing up for himself/herself and the extrovert has trouble controlling their quick response and reacting in love without slapping back.

Turning the cheek is easier for the introvert.

Being a mouthy extrovert, I have had to depend on the Holy Spirit to give me a calm spirit, soft answer and slow response many times. I am amazed at the times the Lord has helped me keep my mouth totally shut....because I know that is not me doing it, it is Him.

In the pastoral ministry there have been times when I have been slapped in the face by critical spirits. It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit and years of allowing the Spirit to soften my spirit that it is possible to respond in love.

I understand what Barbara said...my husband has often received verbal slaps from me. The Holy Spirit always reprimands me so that I must apologize to John and the Lord and ask forgiveness.

Turning the other cheek involves all the fruit of the Spirit...and they come from God within me...not of myself...except my determination to be holy.

Barb

[Marsha Lynn]

For me, it helps to remember that there are probably many times when Carl has felt a verbal slap from me.
So help me see what it looks like.

The jab comes. It's unexpected. It smarts. It's undeserved. Anger starts to well up in your heart just as tears start to well up in your eyes.

Now ... stop the action so you can hold a short conversation with yourself. "Self," you say, "this is how it sometimes feels to other people when you allow unkind words to escape. Even this very person who has just hurt you has sometimes felt the sting of your own blows."

What happens next? You might have time to extend this inner dialogue a little, but, sooner or later, the action has to resume in the scene. How will your observations to yourself change your response? Will you zip your lip and escape until you recover your equilibrium? Will you find the inner resources to set aside the rising anger and redirect your focus? If you were to deliberately choose to 'turn the other cheek', what would such a response look like?

Maybe it would help to make it less personal. In observing others, what is the most admirable response you've observed to a verbal slap on the cheek?

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

First of all, a sweet, gentle answer does not always equate as "wimpy." I did not mean to imply that. Some people are just naturally sweet and gentle and meek people.
OK, but I see apologizing to someone who slaps you without provocation as not only wimpy but borderline dishonest. How can you be sorry for doing something with the best intentions simply because someone else condemns your actions? How can you apologize for existing in a fashion someone else finds annoying? Maybe some people could bring themselves to say, "I'm sorry that you're finding even my most innocent actions annoying today," and be speaking out of genuine sorrow rather than as a rebuke. I don't think I can do that.

A lot of these responses have to do with personality as well as holiness... Turning the cheek is easier for the introvert.
Well, as an introvert, I can tell you that it's certainly not at ALL easy. Whether one explodes or withdraws into a shell and seals all the openings may depend on personality, but I think we all naturally react very strongly to unprovoked attack. However, my interest is not in the nature of the negative reaction. What I'm looking for is the nature of a positive reaction. My question remains, what does turning the other cheek look like in real life?

Being a mouthy extrovert, I have had to depend on the Holy Spirit to give me a calm spirit, soft answer and slow response many times. I am amazed at the times the Lord has helped me keep my mouth totally shut....because I know that is not me doing it, it is Him.
So then is silence a good response to a slap on the cheek? How long does the silence last? Is it best to walk away while recovering from the blow?

Turning the other cheek involves all the fruit of the Spirit...and they come from God within me...not of myself...except my determination to be holy.
I agree. Yet, I find that there are deliberate mindsets I choose that help me to demonstrate love. For example, I choose to see the people at the library as individuals, each equally worthy of my attention. It takes the grace of God to do that. It's a partnership. I choose to look for the spark of the image of God in each set of eyes and He helps me to see it. That's what I'm looking for here: a mindset that enables me to more consistently respond in loving ways to verbal assault. Whether it's a requirement for holy living or not is beside the point. It's how I desire to live. At the very least, I'd like to try it and see for myself how it works out.

Marsha

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I think the best response is to say, "God will strike you, you white washed wall."

It's Biblical! :basic01

[Marsha Lynn]

I think the best response is to say, "God will strike you, you white washed wall."

It's Biblical! :basic01
Oh, sure. Bring the Bible into it. That's the problem with you preacher types. You have a Bible verse for every occasion.

I appreciate your input and I'll keep this choice in mind, but I do see a couple of possible problems with it: 1) The line you quote was in response to an actual physical blow rather than verbal abuse; and 2) Paul later admitted that it might not have been the best response he could have chosen. It does, however, support Barb's assertion that being sanctified doesn't mean having one's temper removed.

Maybe going back to the Bible isn't all that bad an idea. Jesus' response to abuse at his trial was silence. Perhaps that truly is the best course, particularly when there's steam rising within me and a strong possibility that someone will get burnt if I open my mouth. That's a challenge in itself. An even bigger challenge might be to minimize the time before I can close the case without seeing justice served, trusting God to not only look out for my interests but to also 'fix' the other person, as necessary, without my help.

This road is definitely not for wimps. However, I haven't noticed any deep tread marks on my chest yet.

:fav01

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

You know, I think experience has taught us that silence is the best response to abusers on internet forums without blocking and deletion options. Maybe it works in real life, too.

OK. Someone say something about how stupid this whole thread is and I'll see if I can pull off the silent response.

On second thought, I think I can wait until real life brings me an opportunity to practice. It shouldn't take all that long. You all can carry on with your usual kindness and patience toward me.

:basic03

Marsha

[Barb Bouldrey]

Oh, Marsha, I did not mean to imply that it was easier on the introvert to deal with verbal or physical abuse. What I meant was, it would seem to be easier to keep your mouth shut and say nothing if you were an introvert.

If we say nothing and walk away, it still hurts deeply.

I am not a cryer by nature. Some people think that because I do not cry at funerals I do not grieve as deeply as those who sob. I take my grief inward and private...and that probably hurts me longer.

In Corrie Ten Booms book, the Hiding Place, she exhibits holiness and total dependence on the Holy Spirit's help in the prison camp. Her sister, Betsy, a sweet gentle-natured person reminds her, "Don't hate, Corrie, don't hate." It was easier for Betsy to keep silent in the face of abuse than Corrie. One was an introvert...Betsy...and one was an extrovert...Corrie.

Keeping silent was more natural for Betsy. It was still God that helped her.

What does turning the other cheek look like? There is no pat, black & white answer. But it is the believer depending on God to give them strength and guidance to know how to react.

Some abusers, even Christian verbal abusers do not see themselves as abusers, but are control freaks. They may never change. They may never apologize. But the offended Christian has to forgive.

Maybe turning the other cheek can be defined as "not striking back but forgiving instead."

And I see nothing wrong-actully believe it is important to-confront the abuser with what he/she does to hurt us. We should at least make an effort to talk it over and try to change the situation so it never happens again.

A personal example:
In college I had a friend who would constantly tease me about my weight, with statements like, "Get under a doorway, her comes Barb." He would laugh, I would laugh, but it would hurt me. Finally, I could not take any more. I sat down with him and told him how his words hurt me and ask that if he was really my friend if he would stop. He apologized and never teased me again.

Sometimes the rude abusive person does not know they are like that.

Barb

[Brenda Jackson]

Great discussion on what practical holiness looks like.

I heard a story about a sanctified believer during the time of revival, I'm not sure if it was Finney, now, but anyway, this person was in a factory and someone insulted him, or assaulted him, sorry to be so vague. He turned around and looked that person in the eye with such a look of sadness that the person was immediately struck with shame by the Holy Spirit and was converted.

I think that it is important to settle what our reactions will be before they happen, then we are not tempted to act out of emotion or self preservation. It all boils down to accepting that everything that befalls us comes from the hand of God and is there to teach us. Then we can bless the hand that strikes us.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Things seem to hurt me worse than they do Dwayne. Barb, you know that our personalities are very different.
But, he hurts just as badly, and stays quiet and humble about things. His actions appeared to be a sanctified nature even before he was actually sanctified. But, I had to learn to turn my temper, personality, etc. over to the leadership of the Holy spirit. My mother loked at the type of personality that Dwayne has as sort of "gumptionless." That may be "coining" a word. I did not look it up. But, when necessary, he is not like that. He drove 200+ miles to confront a minister that pastored a church running 13 busses, over the way he was living. He drove up to where he was, meeting the woman that he was having an affair with, and witnessed it. He wrote a letter to a man when he learned that the man's wife was stealing money from a church account. He drove around 200 miles, and faced up to a college prof that told something untrue about our son--caused the man to be late for class--until he would say that our son was not guilty. Later, he went back and apologized, even though the young man needed someone to stand up to him. Sometimes, sanctification keeps quiet. Sometimes, it has to act. Dwayne is a very humble, patient person, most of the time.

[Kevin Bowser]

OK. Someone say something about how stupid this whole thread is and I'll see if I can pull off the silent response. :basic03
Marsha

Marsha,

This is one of the most thought provoking threads for me in quite a while. This is the very thing that I think we need to hear from the pulpit. Issues of practical Holiness are what is needed so much today. We have many in the CotN who are looking for what things like "Holiness" and "Sanctification" look like and feel like.

Sanctification is not "Entire" if it does not affect how I respond to my spouse in situations like you outlined in your original post.

Thanks for the post and thanks to the folks who participated in the dialog.