Being Holy

[Roy Richardson]

In our adult Bible study we have been looking at 1 Peter, and I've been mulling over 1 Peter 1:13-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%201&version=NIV) which is Peter's call to Holiness. In that passage, I just had an epiphany about v.22 where Peter apparently links holiness to loving one another deeply from the heart. He then goes on in Chp. 2 to list a series of character issues to rid ourselves of: "rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind."

I find it fascinating that corporate holiness and personal holiness are inseparable. It is such a Hebrew concept and one that many of the adults in my Bible study really struggled with. For many in the U.S. Holiness has always been individual, and the corporate level was seemingly downplayed. But here, Peter has them so intertwined that they can't be separated without some real theological gymnastics.

Have any of you noticed this reaction from people before?

[Susan Unger]

In our adult Bible study we have been looking at 1 Peter, and I've been mulling over 1 Peter 1:13-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%201&version=NIV) which is Peter's call to Holiness. In that passage, I just had an epiphany about v.22 where Peter apparently links holiness to loving one another deeply from the heart. He then goes on in Chp. 2 to list a series of character issues to rid ourselves of: "rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind."

I find it fascinating that corporate holiness and personal holiness are inseparable. It is such a Hebrew concept and one that many of the adults in my Bible study really struggled with. For many in the U.S. Holiness has always been individual, and the corporate level was seemingly downplayed. But here, Peter has them so intertwined that they can't be separated without some real theological gymnastics.

Have any of you noticed this reaction from people before?

Holiness as primarily being about loving like God does is what I got out of the book Relational Holiness and my Doctrine of Holiness class. I don't have to worry about sin anymore, just how can I be more loving with God's help.

And yes, I've noticed that those with a strong grounding in traditional holiness concepts have a real struggle with changing their mindset and understanding. It was only because individual holiness and holiness as sinlessness didn't work for me in the least [contributed to anxiety attacks actually] that I was completely open to what God wanted to teach me concerning holiness. My way of explaining the phrase "Christian Perfection" is to call it being "Perfectly Loving".

[Todd Erickson]

One will note that the last...6? 7? of the ten commandments are all about how we deal with other people, and how we can harm them. The bible really doesn't have a place for sin that only affects us until the New Testament, and even then, it's sort of a "by destroying yourself this way, you'll be unable to respond to others properly" more than anything else.

[Roy Richardson]

One will note that the last...6? 7? of the ten commandments are all about how we deal with other people, and how we can harm them. The bible really doesn't have a place for sin that only affects us until the New Testament, and even then, it's sort of a "by destroying yourself this way, you'll be unable to respond to others properly" more than anything else.

Then how did holiness become so personal at the expense of the corporate? I can't help but think that some of the congregational dysfunction we see in so many congregations who seemingly cannot get along.

[Jon Bemis]

Then how did holiness become so personal at the expense of the corporate? I can't help but think that some of the congregational dysfunction we see in so many congregations who seemingly cannot get along.

I think part of the blame was a decades long (or longer) emphasis on a personal "crisis" experience as some sort of proof one had become holy along with some really bad theology regarding the nature of this experience. While the language and descriptors vary some in the various holiness groups I have been part of this emphasis was clear in each of them. The result, IMO, is that "holiness" became more about trying harder (something we do) as an individual rather than something God has done for us and that we are to participate in. This is the contrast I see in Hebrews 10:



Under the old covenant, the priest stands and ministers before the altar day after day, offering the same sacrifices again and again, which can never take away sins. But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy. (vs. 11-14)

A lot of "holiness" teaching and preaching I've heard throughout my life sounds like the old covenant priest making the same sacrifices over and over again when in truth there is a new covenant that has been secured for us by Christ who has "forever made perfect those who are [in the process of] being made holy.

[Todd Erickson]

Then how did holiness become so personal at the expense of the corporate? I can't help but think that some of the congregational dysfunction we see in so many congregations who seemingly cannot get along.

We get a lot of this from the mid-1800's practices of folks like Phoebe Palmer. Interestingly, it's the sort of obsession that can be identified with Calvinists: Did I have a real enough conversion experience? Did I come to the altar and really experience Christ? Was I truly Sanctified?

The question becomes about how I am sanctified, or justified, how I am saved, how I can know in my heart that this is so, and so my obsession becomes with myself, and how I rank or function within the church community...not how my presence enhances the church community as a whole.

Overall, we're actually really bad at talking about Holiness in a way which actually communicates clearly to the modern culture in ways other than "you're not like what we used to be", when, in fact, Holiness should identify one with God. But it's precisely because we've come to worry about how we can know that we know that we know that we're Sanctified. After all, Salvation isn't guarantee, you could back slide at any moment, you could release your sanctification...the CotN worry becomes about how to secure my Sanctification, and grip it white knuckled until God takes me home, rather than sending me to roast in eternal torment.

[Roy Richardson]

We get a lot of this from the mid-1800's practices of folks like Phoebe Palmer. Interestingly, it's the sort of obsession that can be identified with Calvinists: Did I have a real enough conversion experience? Did I come to the altar and really experience Christ? Was I truly Sanctified?

The question becomes about how I am sanctified, or justified, how I am saved, how I can know in my heart that this is so, and so my obsession becomes with myself, and how I rank or function within the church community...not how my presence enhances the church community as a whole.

Overall, we're actually really bad at talking about Holiness in a way which actually communicates clearly to the modern culture in ways other than "you're not like what we used to be", when, in fact, Holiness should identify one with God. But it's precisely because we've come to worry about how we can know that we know that we know that we're Sanctified. After all, Salvation isn't guarantee, you could back slide at any moment, you could release your sanctification...the CotN worry becomes about how to secure my Sanctification, and grip it white knuckled until God takes me home, rather than sending me to roast in eternal torment.

To me holiness is being like Christ - we do the things he did, we care about the things he cared about, we help the people he helped, and we worship God like he did. It may sound simplistic, but it is actually very difficult. I don't always want to care about the people Jesus cared about. I find it really hard to be surrendered to God like he was.

Methinks that somewhere along the way we made more about us than about him. Which is very Pharisaical

[Susan Unger]

To me holiness is being like Christ - we do the things he did, we care about the things he cared about, we help the people he helped, and we worship God like he did. It may sound simplistic, but it is actually very difficult. I don't always want to care about the people Jesus cared about. I find it really hard to be surrendered to God like he was.

Methinks that somewhere along the way we made more about us than about him. Which is very Pharisaical

That's why I like the mission statement for the denomination: To make Christlike disciples in the Nations.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Saying holiness is being Christlike is all well and good, but what does that actually mean? For some sinlessness falls into this category for they say that He was sinless. I could well be wrong, but I think that Christlikeness is holiness is love. After all Jesus tells us to love, says that love is the greatest of commandments. Jesus never tells us to be sinless, but then Jesus defines the holy life in positive terms, rather than in negative, in terms of what we do and not in terms of what we do not do. Even the Golden Rule, which had been around for quite awhile before Jesus' ministry, was originally written as a negative, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the entirety of the Law, the rest is commentary," Hillel. But Jesus turns it a seemingly imperceptible turn and tells us to treat others as we ourselves would like to be treated. The same with the Law, Love. Love God, love everyone else, what we ought to do not proscribing behaviours. So for me holiness is love, Christlikeness is love.

[Susan Unger]

Saying holiness is being Christlike is all well and good, but what does that actually mean? For some sinlessness falls into this category for they say that He was sinless. I could well be wrong, but I think that Christlikeness is holiness is love. After all Jesus tells us to love, says that love is the greatest of commandments. Jesus never tells us to be sinless, but then Jesus defines the holy life in positive terms, rather than in negative, in terms of what we do and not in terms of what we do not do. Even the Golden Rule, which had been around for quite awhile before Jesus' ministry, was originally written as a negative, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the entirety of the Law, the rest is commentary," Hillel. But Jesus turns it a seemingly imperceptible turn and tells us to treat others as we ourselves would like to be treated. The same with the Law, Love. Love God, love everyone else, what we ought to do not proscribing behaviours. So for me holiness is love, Christlikeness is love.

True, anything about Jesus can be misinterpreted. But for one who grew up in an AHC it gives a better picture for me than what I learned growing up.

[Jon Bemis]

So for me holiness is love, Christlikeness is love.

That sums up my view too. Which is why I think a good definition of sin is anything that violates love for God or others.

[Todd Erickson]

That sums up my view too. Which is why I think a good definition of sin is anything that violates love for God or others.

Unfortunately, we the people seem to be pretty bad at actually handling or manifesting love outside of ourselves.

[Tami Martin]

Then how did holiness become so personal at the expense of the corporate? I can't help but think that some of the congregational dysfunction we see in so many congregations who seemingly cannot get along.

Maybe because it's way easier to deal with individual holiness? If my holiness depends on your actions, then brother you'd better believe you're going to hear from me if you put your toe out of line!

Seriously, though, to avoid the messy business of discipline, accountability, corporate anything, we keep things individual and always say "fine" if anyone asks how you are.

[Jon Bemis]

Unfortunately, we the people seem to be pretty bad at actually handling or manifesting love outside of ourselves.

So true. Of course knowing this means that with the Spirit's help we need to purposefully cultivate this capacity. Which is one reason this statement from Hebrews 10 resonates with me: "he forever made perfect those who are being made holy." I'm definitely a work in progress with a ways to go but in the meantime my relationship with God is secured through Jesus Christ.

[Roy Richardson]

Maybe because it's way easier to deal with individual holiness? If my holiness depends on your actions, then brother you'd better believe you're going to hear from me if you put your toe out of line!

Seriously, though, to avoid the messy business of discipline, accountability, corporate anything, we keep things individual and always say "fine" if anyone asks how you are.

The better question is how can a congregation of holy individuals not behave in a Christlike manner as a corporate entity?

[Todd Erickson]

So true. Of course knowing this means that with the Spirit's help we need to purposefully cultivate this capacity. Which is one reason this statement from Hebrews 10 resonates with me: "he forever made perfect those who are being made holy." I'm definitely a work in progress with a ways to go but in the meantime my relationship with God is secured through Jesus Christ.

But why isn't this more of the church's focus, instead of moral correctness? We seem to spend far more time turning holiness into "how to live morally" than we do "how to become more loving like Christ, together".

[Roy Richardson]

But why isn't this more of the church's focus, instead of moral correctness? We seem to spend far more time turning holiness into "how to live morally" than we do "how to become more loving like Christ, together".

Maybe the fracturing into thousands of denominations has something to do with this.

[Todd Erickson]

At the time that Luther split from the Catholic Church, he was reacting to the widespread teaching from the pulpit that any time, a member of the church might commit a mortal sin and die without proper confession, and go to hell.

Moralism precedes splintering.

[Susan Unger]

But why isn't this more of the church's focus, instead of moral correctness? We seem to spend far more time turning holiness into "how to live morally" than we do "how to become more loving like Christ, together".

This is what I got out of my Nazarene history class - it explained where the roots of such a misunderstanding occured in the denomination. Thankfully, I am starting to see this focus change albeit slowly.

[Gene Tatsch]

Love, definitely!
But I think I see an aspect of arrogance that trips us up. You know, "I can see that speck of sawdust VERY well" (never mind that I'm sighting over the log in my own eye)!!

[Jon Bemis]

But why isn't this more of the church's focus, instead of moral correctness? We seem to spend far more time turning holiness into "how to live morally" than we do "how to become more loving like Christ, together".

My hope is that we are turning that corner. It often gets obscured by other things but I believe it must be our focus.

[Gina Stevenson]

Seriously, though, to avoid the messy business of discipline, accountability, corporate anything, we keep things individual and always say "fine" if anyone asks how you are.

If not, one might risk being somewhat ostracized -- at least by some -- if daring to answer honestly, or misjudging to whom they may dare be honest about that "fine" ... or not.

[Randy Wise]

In that passage, I just had an epiphany about v.22 where Peter apparently links holiness to loving one another deeply from the heart.

Isaiah 53:9
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Well at first though Israel wasn't without sin (What I see as corporate)

I believe the verse speaks of a individual so I don't see vs 22 as corporate but as individual.

Your question seems to be inline with the 2nd greatest commandment

"Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD"


37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


How we act or react comes out of our hearts. (individual)

Randy

[Paul DeBaufer]

I think that within the church it is a false dichotomy to categorize individual and corporate body. Isn't that what Paul was saying when he used the body metaphor? Unfortunately we have become so conditioned by the myth of the individual that we can no longer see that we are never separate, we are all part of the body. Exile has always been punishment, separation from the body, any body. We do this within our local congregations with cliques, select groups, etc. and in effect exile those not within our group. Love would dictate that we do not do this, that we put away self-interest for the interest of the body. In this I will go so far as to say that there is no holiness that is not corporate holiness because IF we are obedient to the law of love and are demonstrating love for one another we are demonstrating individual holiness that results in corporate holiness. If the body is not holy, then I need to look to myself, where am I falling short--something each member of the body needs to do, but holiness is corporate.

[Susan Unger]

Unfortunately we have become so conditioned by the myth of the individual that we can no longer see that we are never separate, we are all part of the body. Exile has always been punishment, separation from the body, any body. Good point. I grew up learning that holiness was an individual thing. Then as an adult I started thinking that this sounded pyschologically unhealthy. Theology classes affirmed that as well that it was spiritually unhealthy. But I had not connected that it was even considered a 'curse' at one time. So what the people in my childhood church thought was holy was actually a curse... No wonder they are in the sad shape that they are in now.

[Roy Richardson]

Good point. I grew up learning that holiness was an individual thing. Then as an adult I started thinking that this sounded pyschologically unhealthy. Theology classes affirmed that as well that it was spiritually unhealthy. But I had not connected that it was even considered a 'curse' at one time. So what the people in my childhood church thought was holy was actually a curse... No wonder they are in the sad shape that they are in now.

That mentality is still around. There are some evangelists who espouse variants of that thought process. I will never have them in my church :(

[Susan Unger]

That mentality is still around. Oh, I know. Trust me, I know. Thankfully though, not so much in my local church.

[Kami Tuenning]

Maybe the fracturing into thousands of denominations has something to do with this.

agree

[Hans Deventer]

Maybe the fracturing into thousands of denominations has something to do with this.

I think its increase is very much related to the time of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. The search for truth in a propositional rather than testimonial and historical way, and the emphasis on orthodoxy as binding element rather than orthopraxis, inevitably caused more splits.

At the same time, we should not be so naive as to think that the Church was one before Luther. 1054 pre-dates that by almost 500 years, and there had already been other churches in existence, not under the dictatorship of Rome, as well. Just think of the Coptic Church, where the split dates back to 451 AD.

So the fracturing is not so much a cause as a result.

[Sarah Smith]

Good discussion!

I would add that there can be no corporate holiness without individual holiness.

Yes, there are systems that need to be redeemed, but unless individual lives are changed you just exchange one unholy mess for another.

But then, I hate the song "holiness" where it keeps saying "holiness, holiness, is what you want from me." I think it is better "holiness, holiness, is what you want FOR me."

He stands ready to cleanse the individual hearts which should then bring about corporate holiness. But He gives it rather than demands it.

[Susan Unger]

Good discussion!

I would add that there can be no corporate holiness without individual holiness.

Yes, there are systems that need to be redeemed, but unless individual lives are changed you just exchange one unholy mess for another.

But then, I hate the song "holiness" where it keeps saying "holiness, holiness, is what you want from me." I think it is better "holiness, holiness, is what you want FOR me."He stands ready to cleanse the individual hearts which should then bring about corporate holiness. But He gives it rather than demands it.Thought this as we sang it in church this am.

[Greg Farra]

I kind of like the diversity in denominations, as long as we have one Lord.

[Susan Unger]

I kind of like the diversity in denominations, as long as we have one Lord.

I agree :)

[Hans Deventer]

I kind of like the diversity in denominations, as long as we have one Lord.

And allow one another the room for that diversity.

[Ryan Pugh]

In this I will go so far as to say that there is no holiness that is not corporate holiness because IF we are obedient to the law of love and are demonstrating love for one another we are demonstrating individual holiness that results in corporate holiness.

I think you might be on to something, Paul. :)

"There is no holiness but social holiness." - John Wesley

[Paul DeBaufer]

I think you might be on to something, Paul. :)

"There is no holiness but social holiness." - John Wesley

Seems I'm not only a heretic, I'm worse: a plagiarist. :)

I think that JW's statement came to mind as I wrote. You know what they say about two great minds ... :smilies1722:

[Billy Cox]

But then, I hate the song "holiness" where it keeps saying "holiness, holiness, is what you want from me." I think it is better "holiness, holiness, is what you want FOR me."


Gotta give those songwriters some credit for even using the word 'holiness'. It would make up for the totally unoriginal chord structure. :)

[Gina Stevenson]

Gotta give those songwriters some credit for even using the word 'holiness'. It would make up for the totally unoriginal chord structure. :)

Where can we hear this? Nevermind, found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uor3TPX0of8

See what you mean, but what caught my eye is how someone who set this up was not mindful if the difference in times needed to read the varying length verses, etc, as the long ones were on no longer than the short ones. I can read rather fast, yet they flipped by fast enough that the longer ones could not be read totally before they were gone.

[Billy Cox]

Unfortunately, we the people seem to be pretty bad at actually handling or manifesting love outside of ourselves.

We also have a fixation with the notion that love = license.

[Susan Unger]

We also have a fixation with the notion that love = license.

Could you explain? I'm not getting a picture of this/

[Todd Erickson]

License is essentially "If you love me, then you can't tell me what to do". Or alternatively "I do nothing but rebuke you all of the time because I love you". It's not balanced or relational.

[Susan Unger]

License is essentially "If you love me, then you can't tell me what to do". Or alternatively "I do nothing but rebuke you all of the time because I love you". It's not balanced or relational.

The second was my guess - a nag.

[Billy Cox]

Could you explain? I'm not getting a picture of this/

I have observed that some people (even on NazNet!) see ethics as a continuum, with love on one extreme and justice on the other. Thus the 'sweet spot' for right living would be a point of tension between love and justice. When some new group or author talks about loving a group of people to whom the church typically prefers to mete out justice, it sets off alarm bells among those who see love and justice as a dichotomy.

Another way to say it is that if we live out of balance (in their view), erring on the side of love, we will find ourselves ignoring abominations like homosexuality or tolerating things that God hates like divorce. This is the predominant ethic taught within evangelical Christianity, so a simple Google search should yield many heartbreaking examples of those who live in this false dichotomy and inflict it on others.

I believe that God's justice is love. God's justice is mercy.

[Gary Condon]

What a great discussion: I tried the concepts of this post out on the Tuesday morning men's breakfast here in Nampa. Mostly traditional, retired, College Church Nazarenes. Their initial response was to vehemently side with holiness as a personal journey. "What matters is our personal relationship with God." "We alone are responsible for our own salvation/holiness." I then tried out a few ideas of my own about corporate holiness, then pointed out how College Church is making an effort to encourage the congregation to employ an outward application of holiness. It was a fun conversation and ended with a small attitude change....Thanx for your input.