"Transforming the planet

[Larry Parsons]

Willow Creek thinks God wants us to “transform the planet!” and that includes Rick Warren and many other major Christian leaders who believe the church will transform cities and usher in the kingdom of God on earth before Christ returns. This sound like the old postmillennial view eschatology. Does anyone see anything wrong with this? Do you find this idea in the Bible
Larry Parsons

[Wilson Deaton]

This sound like the old postmillennial view eschatology.

Well, at least it's not as bad as the old premillenial view eschatology.

Wilson

[Tom George]

I have been reading various threads for several months and finally decided to join. This thread sounds interesting.

I remember from college days studying that several early leaders of our own branch of the Holiness movement believed in postmillenialism. A.M. Hills is the only name that comes to mind however. College was a long time ago and I am a little rusty in eschatology. I have always been intrigued by the idea, especially the way I understood it within the holiness movement, that the spreading of Holiness across the world could create dramatic change. So much so that it could usher in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. I never found much wrong with that idea, even if it never seemed very popular with evangelicals.

Many things are found in the Bible. It depends of course on how one interprets the verses. I recall there were 3 main views on millenialism, pre, post and amillenialism. All have had their supporters through the years who use the Bible for a basis.

[Benjamin Burch]

I have been reading various threads for several months and finally decided to join. This thread sounds interesting.

I remember from college days studying that several early leaders of our own branch of the Holiness movement believed in postmillenialism. A.M. Hills is the only name that comes to mind however. College was a long time ago and I am a little rusty in eschatology. I have always been intrigued by the idea, especially the way I understood it within the holiness movement, that the spreading of Holiness across the world could create dramatic change. So much so that it could usher in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. I never found much wrong with that idea, even if it never seemed very popular with evangelicals.

Many things are found in the Bible. It depends of course on how one interprets the verses. I recall there were 3 main views on millenialism, pre, post and amillenialism. All have had their supporters through the years who use the Bible for a basis.

Tom,

Welcome to NazNet! Nice to have you discussing on our theology forum!

[Hans Deventer]

I have been reading various threads for several months and finally decided to join. This thread sounds interesting.

Welcome,Tom!

[Jim Chabot]

Willow Creek thinks God wants us to “transform the planet!” and that includes Rick Warren and many other major Christian leaders who believe the church will transform cities and usher in the kingdom of God on earth before Christ returns. This sound like the old postmillennial view eschatology. Does anyone see anything wrong with this? Do you find this idea in the Bible
Larry Parsons

I think that you and I share a similar view of eschatology, so my answer comes from the Preterist mindset. Yes it does wound like the old postmillenial view, dragged out and dusted off. I can see where Rick Warren would embrace this, it is in line with his missional focus. I have no argument with his focus, but I think that this logical extension shows that perhaps it is going to his head. I find most futurist eschatology both pre and post to be a reflection of man thinking too highly of himself. Somehow we aren't all that "special" or "relevant" if we ascribe to the notion of fulfilled prophesy rather than to future events that will surely unravel during our lifetimes.

[Larry Parsons]

I think that you and I share a similar view of eschatology, so my answer comes from the Preterist mindset. Yes it does wound like the old postmillenial view, dragged out and dusted off. I can see where Rick Warren would embrace this, it is in line with his missional focus. I have no argument with his focus, but I think that this logical extension shows that perhaps it is going to his head. I find most futurist eschatology both pre and post to be a reflection of man thinking too highly of himself. Somehow we aren't all that "special" or "relevant" if we ascribe to the notion of fulfilled prophesy rather than to future events that will surely unravel during our lifetimes.
Jim, I think you are right and I'm just wondering how many others would identified themselves with the Preterist Postmillenist view? (sp)
Larry

[Larry Parsons]

Well, at least it's not as bad as the old premillenial view eschatology.

Wilson
Amen
Larry

[Larry Parsons]

I have been reading various threads for several months and finally decided to join. This thread sounds interesting.

I remember from college days studying that several early leaders of our own branch of the Holiness movement believed in postmillenialism. A.M. Hills is the only name that comes to mind however. College was a long time ago and I am a little rusty in eschatology. I have always been intrigued by the idea, especially the way I understood it within the holiness movement, that the spreading of Holiness across the world could create dramatic change. So much so that it could usher in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. I never found much wrong with that idea, even if it never seemed very popular with evangelicals.

Many things are found in the Bible. It depends of course on how one interprets the verses. I recall there were 3 main views on millenialism, pre, post and amillenialism. All have had their supporters through the years who use the Bible for a basis.
Tom
You mention A.M Hills and here is his Definition ofThe post Millennial Advent theory is: The nations of the earth are to be evangelized and all are to be converted, who ever will be converted, in this Holy Spirit's dispensation, by the present means of grace. The millennium means the triumph of Christianity in this world, the gospel being the controlling influence in human society, and in civic and national life. It will be followed by a brief but terrible apostasy, in the midst of which Jesus will come (after the millennium) with His holy angels to raise all the dead, and to judge and sentence the whole moral universe. This is our Lord's second and only future coming in this sense. Those who accept this view are Post-millennialists.
Thanks
Larry P

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I have been reading various threads for several months and finally decided to join. This thread sounds interesting.

I remember from college days studying that several early leaders of our own branch of the Holiness movement believed in postmillenialism. A.M. Hills is the only name that comes to mind however. College was a long time ago and I am a little rusty in eschatology. I have always been intrigued by the idea, especially the way I understood it within the holiness movement, that the spreading of Holiness across the world could create dramatic change. So much so that it could usher in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. I never found much wrong with that idea, even if it never seemed very popular with evangelicals.

Many things are found in the Bible. It depends of course on how one interprets the verses. I recall there were 3 main views on millenialism, pre, post and amillenialism. All have had their supporters through the years who use the Bible for a basis.

I'm about the last person around to turn to for an authoritative voice on end times matters, but I've always been attracted to postmillenialism. It fits my view of the power of the gospel to transform and the meaning of Pentecost in empowering the disciples to go forth.

I don't go with the literal thousand years although, at this point in history I see that, had Christianity continued at the pace set by the early Christians that we could now be well on our way to that amount of time.

I think it was the first and second world wars that caused people to back away from such a triumphant view of Christianity and move to a more "remnant" approach.

Again, I'm far from having any authority on the topic, but the "post" view at least in theory resonates with me.

[Randy Wise]

I have had the impression Gods judgment comes, (axe to the tree), when His great patience comes to a end with mans disobedience. Jesus asked, would He find any faith on the earth when He returned doesn't paint a picture, to me, of a cleaned and tidy world ushering in the 2nd coming of Christ.

However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

[Ryan Plott]

Willow Creek thinks God wants us to “transform the planet!” and that includes Rick Warren and many other major Christian leaders who believe the church will transform cities and usher in the kingdom of God on earth before Christ returns. This sound like the old postmillennial view eschatology. Does anyone see anything wrong with this? Do you find this idea in the Bible
Larry Parsons

I don't see anything wrong with it. I definitely think the church has always defined itself by living "post-millenially" in the future reality of the not-yet nature of the KoG. I see this balanced with the pre-millenial expectation found through Scripture and the idea that there will be "wars and rumors of wars" and so forth until the Second Coming. It's just a sincerely hard tension to live with, a post-millenial lifestyle and a pre-millenial expectation. a microcosm of the tension between the now and not-yet nature of the KoG. Some people may not agree with that view, but as I've worked through Christian eschatology this is where I've landed with the tension between lifestyle and expectation and the beliefs of the church.

So in answer to your question I think this is great that they are doing this and living in the reality of creation being transformed, however I would hope that some among them realize that Scripture holds to the idea that the world will not be as it should when Christ returns. Maybe their expectations would become more realistic as opposed to hopeful and possibly naive. They could exhaust all their resources and still fail which is a danger of focusing to much on the not-yet nature.

Do you have a link to this initiative of Willow Creek's?

[Ryan Plott]

I recall there were 3 main views on millenialism, pre, post and amillenialism. All have had their supporters through the years who use the Bible for a basis.

Don't forget about dispensationalism! It's easily the most popular view in mainstream U.S. culture for a very good reason....their scholarship just so happens to be fantastic!:biggrin:

[Benjamin Burch]

I don't see anything wrong with it. I definitely think the church has always defined itself by living "post-millenially" in the future reality of the not-yet nature of the KoG. I see this balanced with the pre-millenial expectation found through Scripture and the idea that there will be "wars and rumors of wars" and so forth until the Second Coming. It's just a sincerely hard tension to live with, a post-millenial lifestyle and a pre-millenial expectation. a microcosm of the tension between the now and not-yet nature of the KoG. Some people may not agree with that view, but as I've worked through Christian eschatology this is where I've landed with the tension between lifestyle and expectation and the beliefs of the church.

So in answer to your question I think this is great that they are doing this and living in the reality of creation being transformed, however I would hope that some among them realize that Scripture holds to the idea that the world will not be as it should be when Christ returns. Maybe their expectations would become more realistic as opposed to hopeful and possibly naive. They could exhaust all their resources and still fail which is a danger of focusing to much on the not-yet nature.

Do you have a link to this initiative of Willow Creek's?

Larry,

I would largely echoe what Hank has said here as I agree very strongly with him.

I would want to applaud the goal of living into the already begun reality of God's reign in this world and our participation in the creative transformation of this world. I would also want to stress that, according to the Bible, all will not be right until God makes all things right at the return of God's anointed Lord and judge, Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure what exactly I think about all of this from a process perspective but, regardless, I think that Hank has captured the essence of what Scripture has to say here.

[Roland Hearn]

If there are only two views to choose from "Post" and "Pre" I can find a whole lot more right with a "Post" view. Fortunately they aren't the only two options. If there has been an adoption of "Post" views by a significant part of the church community represented by Warren et al, I would say that is a move in the right direction. Possibly we can hope for a general evangelical swing to "yup he's comin' back some day, don't know when but I'll know when He get's here." Nah that would be too much to hope for.

[Wilson Deaton]

Possibly we can hope for a general evangelical swing to "yup he's comin'"

For some reason this view is often presented in a manner similar to the way you presented it (very "folksy"). Another common expression is where some says very seriously, "I'm a pan-millenialist," then with a big grin/laugh adds, "It'll all pan out in the end."

I think such presentations give the impression that this is not a view to be taken seriously or is not a view accepted by those who are in any way scholarly.

I believe this to be an unfortunate characterization, because I believe this simple, folksy view is the correct view!

Wilson

[Larry Parsons]

Here how I see the Post- millenialist view The growth of the Kingdom of God will be gradual. There will be up and down. sometime it will seem that the church is losing the battle and at other time it will seem that the church is But one day the Kingdom of God on earth will reach it full developent Like the mustard tree, it started out small but became a large tree. Just like the stone that Daniel saw that became a mountain that filled the whole earth. The Kingdom will grow in size and it will everywhere until the knowledge of God cover the earth,as the wter cover the sea. When Christ return for his kingdom there will be no one left behind.
Larry P

[David Troxler]

Willow Creek thinks God wants us to “transform the planet!” and that includes Rick Warren and many other major Christian leaders who believe the church will transform cities and usher in the kingdom of God on earth before Christ returns. This sound like the old postmillennial view eschatology. Does anyone see anything wrong with this? Do you find this idea in the Bible
Larry Parsons

Good evening Larry.
Since reading this post much earlier today, I wanted to think over the whole of it. Like Scott notes about himself above, I would not be an expert in discussing end times eschatology either.

However, I think your question can be answered without having to discuss all that. We are called upon in the prayer Jesus modeled for the disciples to seek God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Likewise, our commission is to go into all the world and proclaim the gospel. It is the gospel that transforms when it is received in faith. We, in fulfilling our calling as believers, are agents of transformation on behalf of the gospel.

Will we usher in the Kingdom of God? No. Jesus did that. He often declared that the Kingdom of God was at hand. In Luke 13, Jesus uses the analogy of yeast to describe the Kingdom, something that begins to change the dough as it works it way all through it. Similarly, the mustard seed that grows into the tree that offers roost to the birds of the air. In those examples, the Kingdom is a growing reality. Later, in Luke 16, we hear Jesus tell us that people are forcing their way into the Kingdom. Still in c. 17, Jesus answers the Pharisees by saying the Kingdom is within them.

I cannot speak for Hybels or Saddleback as to their meaning, yet it seems to me that at least part of our work on behalf of the Kingdom of God is to be salt and light. Those qualities are always transformational. For me, this is exciting to consider...what would it look like if we all reflected the light of Christ in such a way as to glorify Him and give rise to His Kingdom?! Think of the possibilities, though no eye has seen and no one can conceive what He has in store, it still is wonderful to imagine!

dave t

[Larry Parsons]

I don't see anything wrong with it. I definitely think the church has always defined itself by living "post-millenially" in the future reality of the not-yet nature of the KoG. I see this balanced with the pre-millenial expectation found through Scripture and the idea that there will be "wars and rumors of wars" and so forth until the Second Coming. It's just a sincerely hard tension to live with, a post-millenial lifestyle and a pre-millenial expectation. a microcosm of the tension between the now and not-yet nature of the KoG. Some people may not agree with that view, but as I've worked through Christian eschatology this is where I've landed with the tension between lifestyle and expectation and the beliefs of the church.

So in answer to your question I think this is great that they are doing this and living in the reality of creation being transformed, however I would hope that some among them realize that Scripture holds to the idea that the world will not be as it should when Christ returns. Maybe their expectations would become more realistic as opposed to hopeful and possibly naive. They could exhaust all their resources and still fail which is a danger of focusing to much on the not-yet nature.

Do you have a link to this initiative of Willow Creek's?
Hank ,hope this help
htttp://www.letusreason.org/Emerge5.htm
Thanks
Larry

[David Troxler]

I just checked out the website posted in response to Hank's request for one. However, it is not a link to Willow Creek, but to another organization that disagrees with them.

The short version of that particular webpage is its anti-emergent church stance.
Their statement of faith includes biblical inerrancy.

I won't quote from any of it for two reasons: 1. They prohibit citing their work unless cited in its entirety according to the notes at the bottom of each page.
2. I don't agree with their positions.

[Larry Parsons]

Good evening Larry.
Since reading this post much earlier today, I wanted to think over the whole of it. Like Scott notes about himself above, I would not be an expert in discussing end times eschatology either.

However, I think your question can be answered without having to discuss all that. We are called upon in the prayer Jesus modeled for the disciples to seek God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Likewise, our commission is to go into all the world and proclaim the gospel. It is the gospel that transforms when it is received in faith. We, in fulfilling our calling as believers, are agents of transformation on behalf of the gospel.

Will we usher in the Kingdom of God? No. Jesus did that. He often declared that the Kingdom of God was at hand. In Luke 13, Jesus uses the analogy of yeast to describe the Kingdom, something that begins to change the dough as it works it way all through it. Similarly, the mustard seed that grows into the tree that offers roost to the birds of the air. In those examples, the Kingdom is a growing reality. Later, in Luke 16, we hear Jesus tell us that people are forcing their way into the Kingdom. Still in c. 17, Jesus answers the Pharisees by saying the Kingdom is within them.

I cannot speak for Hybels or Saddleback as to their meaning, yet it seems to me that at least part of our work on behalf of the Kingdom of God is to be salt and light. Those qualities are always transformational. For me, this is exciting to consider...what would it look like if we all reflected the light of Christ in such a way as to glorify Him and give rise to His Kingdom?! Think of the possibilities, though no eye has seen and no one can conceive what He has in store, it still is wonderful to imagine!

dave t
Dave, I agree with what you said about the Kingdom of God, Just want to add another thought Jesus didn't say that the Kingdom is like dough, into which someone sneak destructive evil leaven. He said the Kingdom is like leaven and for last 2000 years it has continue to ferment and transform the world. Who ever dream of a small band of men 2000 years ago that was commissioned to disciple the ntions. The church has come out as a winner by a mile. Rome and Jerusalem didn't get past the stating gate. The last 2000 years has witnessed progress that only the willful blind would deny. The yeast of the Kingdom has spread everywhere.
Dave, I relize the Link wasn't from willow Creek, but I never said it was and I also relize that they were against the idea. Hank ask for a link I though this may him If this cause any confuss I'm sorrry.
Larry

[Larry Parsons]

I just checked out the website posted in response to Hank's request for one. However, it is not a link to Willow Creek, but to another organization that disagrees with them.

The short version of that particular webpage is its anti-emergent church stance.
Their statement of faith includes biblical inerrancy.

I won't quote from any of it for two reasons: 1. They prohibit citing their work unless cited in its entirety according to the notes at the bottom of each page.
2. I don't agree with their positions.

I don't either

Larry

[Roland Hearn]

For some reason this view is often presented in a manner similar to the way you presented it (very "folksy"). Another common expression is where some says very seriously, "I'm a pan-millenialist," then with a big grin/laugh adds, "It'll all pan out in the end."

I think such presentations give the impression that this is not a view to be taken seriously or is not a view accepted by those who are in any way scholarly.

I believe this to be an unfortunate characterization, because I believe this simple, folksy view is the correct view!

Wilson

Obviously so do I. My "folksie" spin on it was to try and present it in a laconic way as from one who was not overly bothered by the theories. The pan-millenial pun is getting a little long in the tooth but still somewhat appropriate. If we could have half the energy back used up in useless end times discussions we may have been well and truly on the way to seeing the realisation of the highest hopes of the church.

[Ryan Scott]

The way I view things is that the Kingdom of God has arrived, it came with Jesus, but that its fulfillment comes only in Christ's return. Therefore its the duty of Christians to live in the Kingdom here and now, to live as Christ taught us. Where some people seem to run into trouble is in the belief that they can do this successfully without Christ's return. As much as believe in the power of the Spirit to change lives - I must believe that God will have to change something in the future (presumably with the return of Christ) that will allow us to do what we're supposed to do.

I have great faith in the idea that we have to get along with each other - we, as Christians, don't have any other choice. We should work at that as hard as we can for the entire time we're alive, all in the belief that someday God will bless those efforts with success.