Assent vs. Reality: a study in theopoetic angst

[Todd Erickson]

Intellectually, I have come to accept/believe that Discipleship is more than just packing more butts in the country club while we wait for the great escape.

But I have trouble finding hope in something more than escape.

Especially within this life, there are odd bursts and moments where it appears that something glorious and creative and compassionate may lie on the horizon, but life has taught me, in general, not to hope.

That nothing is as good as I hoped, and often it will be far less, and often the entire question behind the initial hope was wrong.

It's far too easy to turn to "a life of duty, followed by an eternal reward", simply because what I see around me is daily trudge and bore, interspersed by moments of sheer terror and horror.

Do I believe that Jesus is with me in all of those moments? Certainly.

Is that any comfort? Not really. I was taught to embrace Christ from Duty. It's very hard to break out of a lifetime of Duty into something more...it's one of those many parts of the Christian experience that you have to find for yourself, that nobody can point you to, or lead you through. You have to be broken enough to find it for yourself.

But at times, I'm not sure how much more I can be broken. I'm sure that I can find out, but on my ongoing journey to the bottom, it's unclear how I am to be a source of hope and joy, when in fact I have none. My peace is found in that, no matter how bad it gets, when I die, it's over, and I'm going somewhere else. But that's a sort of resolution, a grim resolve. It's not Aeon Zoe.

I want to be enamoured with Christ in a way which grips my life, and shatters all of my complacencies, but I can't seem to get there from here. It's like that trailer for that film that you see every couple of years in front of the odd picture, that can't quite seem to get distributed.

Like some Gilliam project that just floats, never quite financed, never quite finished. Don Quixote.

I feel like there's something more, something there, just out of the corner of my eye, hiding behind an atom, impossible to grasp. It taunts me, it teases me, it reduces me to utter frustration.

We live here, day by day, in the psyche world. We're surrounded by an unending sea of pain and need and selfishness and greed and inhumanity. You can drown in it, if you let yourself. The waves will rise, and sweep you away, and the ocean will continue it's cycle unabated, and the waters will yield no briney secrets to your ears in the process.

The ssuration of the waves is a lie, their whispers are unintelligible. Move along. There's no pattern to discern here.

The man on the boardwalk sells hot, fresh guilt, duty, and legalism on a stick. There's a lady down at the end who, well, she peddles her wares. But it's an empty beach besides, most days. Either/or. Pot and kettle. Shake out the sand, change back into mufti, and drive home. It might be the ocean echoing in your ears, or it could be just tinnitus.

This malaise isn't life, but you sure could fool me.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Very good Todd. So very honest. I think you express what many of us feel, even if we refuse to admit it to ourselves and others. Let me say that you have very eloquently said what I feel most of the time. One of my first thoughts was, "We should start a pool to see how many do or have felt this way," but then I realize that removing the mask is hard and dangerous within the current church culture. Anyway Thank you.

[Hans Deventer]

Todd, you've written a good post and I am not going to tell you it will be all right if you just ...... and you probably can fill in the blanks.

It seems to me many people, as Rollins explains, float on other people's faith. Which is the very reason why honesty is so threatening. But I believe that when people really get down to it, your experience isn't half as rare as you might think.

That is why, as I wrote elsewhere, I like the Psalms so much. For there is also a Psalm 88 in the Bible, that does not even end with hope.



Psalm 88

A Song. A Psalm of the Korahites. To the leader: according to Mahalath Leannoth. A Maskil of Heman the Ezrahite.
1 O Lord, God of my salvation,
when, at night, I cry out in your presence,
2 let my prayer come before you;
incline your ear to my cry.

3 For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol.
4 I am counted among those who go down to the Pit;
I am like those who have no help,
5 like those forsaken among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.
6 You have put me in the depths of the Pit,
in the regions dark and deep.
7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me,
and you overwhelm me with all your waves.


8 You have caused my companions to shun me;
you have made me a thing of horror to them.
I am shut in so that I cannot escape;
9 my eye grows dim through sorrow.
Every day I call on you, O Lord;
I spread out my hands to you.
10 Do you work wonders for the dead?
Do the shades rise up to praise you?
11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave,
or your faithfulness in Abaddon?
12 Are your wonders known in the darkness,
or your saving help in the land of forgetfulness?


13 But I, O Lord, cry out to you;
in the morning my prayer comes before you.
14 O Lord, why do you cast me off?
Why do you hide your face from me?
15 Wretched and close to death from my youth up,
I suffer your terrors; I am desperate.*
16 Your wrath has swept over me;
your dread assaults destroy me.
17 They surround me like a flood all day long;
from all sides they close in on me.
18 You have caused friend and neighbour to shun me;
my companions are in darkness.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Why are we so afraid to be honest like this within Modern Christianity? The psalmists were brutally honest with songs expressing fear, separation, anger, doubt, and even despair. Some written by that man after God's own heart. Even Jesus anticipates his suffering and crucifixion with anxiety and agitation. Anxiety to the point of sweating blood. Yet, the modern evangelical church expects her members to face everything with a happy countenance, never expressing fear, anxiety, doubt, agitation. But if we are really honest don't the vast majority of us feel this angst from time to time?

[Steven Burton]

As one who struggles with anxiety/depression on a daily bases. I can say that there seem to be some cultural ideology about not being able to control ones emotions. I have ran into many people who have talked negatively at those they suspect to show these signs and as one who has these on a daily bases I feel quite belittled on a regular bases. My last pastor did it about once a month with out even knowing it. It seems like if you are happy then everything in your life is right. But if you feel the other emotions then something in your life is wrong. And that is usually associated with failing spiritually in the church. Even if your brain is creating certain pathways due to some set genetics. I have discovered most are ill informed when it come to these emotion as well. Or certain mental illnesses.

It seems like control is the biggest issue even within the church that gives rise to some ideology about these emotions as well. The left over ideology of the Romans and being in control of your body as well as your situations.

[Susan Unger]

Why are we so afraid to be honest like this within Modern Christianity? The psalmists were brutally honest with songs expressing fear, separation, anger, doubt, and even despair. Some written by that man after God's own heart. Even Jesus anticipates his suffering and crucifixion with anxiety and agitation. Anxiety to the point of sweating blood. Yet, the modern evangelical church expects her members to face everything with a happy countenance, never expressing fear, anxiety, doubt, agitation. But if we are really honest don't the vast majority of us feel this angst from time to time?

Something else I've noticed is that people can't handle their own "darkness" so when someone else wants to be honest about their own darkness, they can't handle it and react.

People in general, I don't believe, are taught and given healthy ways to deal with inner issues. They have coping mechanisms but not honesty.

[Ryan Pugh]

Why are we so afraid to be honest like this within Modern Christianity? The psalmists were brutally honest with songs expressing fear, separation, anger, doubt, and even despair. Some written by that man after God's own heart. Even Jesus anticipates his suffering and crucifixion with anxiety and agitation. Anxiety to the point of sweating blood. Yet, the modern evangelical church expects her members to face everything with a happy countenance, never expressing fear, anxiety, doubt, agitation. But if we are really honest don't the vast majority of us feel this angst from time to time?

I think part of the "answer" to this has been apparent in some conversations I've had recently. When we view God as either literally controlling everything (tornados, weather, etc.) or just mostly in control and allows us to make some choices, we are left with just "trusting" that everything is how God wants it to be anyway. "It's all part of God's plan."

So, even when we feel like crap, even when we feel like God is nowhere to be found and we just want to give up, we're supposed to convince ourselves that it's all ok because God's in control. And we have to act like it, too, so we can't expect to be honest with other people because we aren't supposed to be doubting, lamenting, crying out.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I think part of the "answer" to this has been apparent in some conversations I've had recently. When we view God as either literally controlling everything (tornados, weather, etc.) or just mostly in control and allows us to make some choices, we are left with just "trusting" that everything is how God wants it to be anyway. "It's all part of God's plan."

So, even when we feel like crap, even when we feel like God is nowhere to be found and we just want to give up, we're supposed to convince ourselves that it's all ok because God's in control. And we have to act like it, too, so we can't expect to be honest with other people because we aren't supposed to be doubting, lamenting, crying out.

So, we have to hide the fact that we are suffering anxiety, agitation, fear, doubt, etc., which are actually biblically allowable, if not encouraged, because of some non-biblical belief about God might get challenged. What I don't get is how do we in our denial, our insistence that all is always well because "God is in control" (a statement that actually hurts when I hear it), deal with the fact that Jesus, God Himself, felt these things? Mark's portrayal of Jesus at Gethsemane indicates that Jesus did indeed feel fear, agitation, doubt I think can be inferred, and He expresses it to the Father?

[Todd Erickson]

I'm reliably informed by my Baptist friends that depression is a form of sin, btw.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I'm reliably informed by my Baptist friends that depression is a form of sin, btw.

I've been told that. Had a friend who was a therapist and his office was across the street from a Calvary Chapel and their members would sneak over to see him. They were riddled with guilt for seeking help for their issues. So their church laid more issues on top of their issues. And for what? Some idiotic idea of men that cannot be biblically derived, let alone supported.

[Susan Unger]

So, we have to hide the fact that we are suffering anxiety, agitation, fear, doubt, etc., which are actually biblically allowable, if not encouraged, because of some non-biblical belief about God might get challenged. What I don't get is how do we in our denial, our insistence that all is always well because "God is in control" (a statement that actually hurts when I hear it), ...


I'm reliably informed by my Baptist friends that depression is a form of sin, btw.

Y'all have described my life in the 1990s....

[Paul DeBaufer]

Y'all have described my life in the 1990s....

I am sorry you had to experience that Susan. I hope and pray it is no longer like that for you, for anybody. If we are not free to be honest within the church, what good is it? We can never even hope for healing if we must hide our ailments.

[Susan Unger]

I am sorry you had to experience that Susan. I hope and pray it is no longer like that for you, for anybody. If we are not free to be honest within the church, what good is it? We can never even hope for healing if we must hide our ailments.

Well, it is getting better. In the 2000s I stopped hanging around those of the reformed faith so there wasn't as much guilt coming at me. I also just stopped sharing so that no one could tell me I was sinning for feeling ____. Then the last four years I have been studying Wesleyan theology more intensely and had alot of that garbage cleansed out of my soul. Now, to help my local congregation be willing to heal and feel safe to be honest.

[Peggy Gray]

Isn't it sad to stop daring to share.

[Susan Unger]

Isn't it sad to stop daring to share.

Or never knowing one can share in the first place?

[Steven Martinez]

I'm reliably informed by my Baptist friends that depression is a form of sin, btw.

Well count me a sinner. :smilies0295:
I am not ashamed to take medication daily for my depression. As a pastor, I decided to let my congregation know ASAP and have been able to reach people in ways that I could not do before. For some reason we have forgotten the words of Paul about the strength we have in admitting our weakness. Love has to be transparent and as long as we hide from our weaknesses it not only robs us of truly loving others but of truly being loved by others.

[David Gerber]

I'm reliably informed by my Baptist friends that depression is a form of sin, btw.

I think stupid theological comments about depression are more likely a sin than depression. Of course, that's just me.

Todd, it is because of your willingness to share that I am ever mindful of where folks might be, even behind their masks of 'okay-ness' when I am preaching. I'm not sure that I can do much more than give permission to be where they are and be willing to walk in the dark with them. I don't know, maybe I'm some kind of light in that journey. Maybe some other folks will step in and walk with them, too.

Of course a reading of the Scriptures presents a whole bunch more of where you are and a whole lot less of where we think we ought to be. Perhaps our past prosperity as a country and our rampant consumerism have affected our theology in ways that have little or no room for doubt, questions, or depression. It has little room of anxious thoughts, either.

[Peggy Gray]

It is much simpler to say "Fine, thank you, praise God" than to have comments such as "fear is not of the Lord" added to crippling anxiety. *sigh*

[Todd Erickson]

Most of the creative-type friends I had in college have left the church, and in many cases, Christianity altogether. My marked talent among them seems to be simply that I'm much more stubborn than many of them.

But it also means that I get to live with my own frustration at a mounting list of unanswered, and perhaps unanswerable questions.

As somebody who will likely be laity his entire life, I must deal with the fact that I can do various ministries in the church without call or passion, and be just as effective.

There is, perhaps, a sensation, especially among those of us who feel the darkness so keenly and so often, that we should also be able to feel, or at least, pursue, the light.

As a poet and writer, and a vast consumer of media, I am constantly running into accounts and tales from people about life, or the stories that they see in life, that reflect an entire level of commitment and creativity that, for whatever reason, simply isn't allowed or made room for within the church.

But then, the purpose of Church, within our traditions, is to show up, have some good music worship, get preached at, and go home. If I want to use the parts of me that are creative, that tell stories, that explore reality...I have to go somewhere outside of the church to do so.

In short, unless it has to do with teaching sunday school, or leading prayer, or some sort of mentorship, there is no place in the church at large for me as somebody whose soul leaks poetry on a daily basis.

I'm sure there are those who will point me at Psalms for poetry, and that's all well and good, but sometimes a body wants some Billy Collins or e. e. cummings...or my own original set.

I listen to folks on the Nerdist podcast talk about how they've poured their lives and passions into comedy, into the development of their art and their voice, about how it takes 10k performances to get to the point where your voice really begins to show through. And this is every comic out there, not just the really good ones.

They're expressing things that are real and true about all humans. But there is little room for that reality, that expression, in church.

So more and more, church becomes a sort of desert where I look for a cave or hovel where I can remain who I am, and yet be in the same space as the community I've joined.

And yet, we talk about the importance of being who we are in all places...that my heart, my voice, my mind, might be the same in church as at work or in any other place, without masks.

But the church has no real use for me without the mask. Yes, there are individual churches that have made strides, but in terms of culture...

In Shakespeare's day, an actor could not be buried in a church cemetery. We don't live with that level of hatred...it's merely been replaced, in many cases, with distrust and disinterest.

I can only suspect that God made me this way, with this fire, this passion, this interest. But what a shame that I would have to get to heaven for it to be accepted and used.

[Cynthia Prentice]

Most of the creative-type friends I had in college have left the church, and in many cases, Christianity altogether. My marked talent among them seems to be simply that I'm much more stubborn than many of them.

But it also means that I get to live with my own frustration at a mounting list of unanswered, and perhaps unanswerable questions.

As somebody who will likely be laity his entire life, I must deal with the fact that I can do various ministries in the church without call or passion, and be just as effective.

There is, perhaps, a sensation, especially among those of us who feel the darkness so keenly and so often, that we should also be able to feel, or at least, pursue, the light.

As a poet and writer, and a vast consumer of media, I am constantly running into accounts and tales from people about life, or the stories that they see in life, that reflect an entire level of commitment and creativity that, for whatever reason, simply isn't allowed or made room for within the church.

But then, the purpose of Church, within our traditions, is to show up, have some good music worship, get preached at, and go home. If I want to use the parts of me that are creative, that tell stories, that explore reality...I have to go somewhere outside of the church to do so.

In short, unless it has to do with teaching sunday school, or leading prayer, or some sort of mentorship, there is no place in the church at large for me as somebody whose soul leaks poetry on a daily basis.

I'm sure there are those who will point me at Psalms for poetry, and that's all well and good, but sometimes a body wants some Billy Collins or e. e. cummings...or my own original set.

I listen to folks on the Nerdist podcast talk about how they've poured their lives and passions into comedy, into the development of their art and their voice, about how it takes 10k performances to get to the point where your voice really begins to show through. And this is every comic out there, not just the really good ones.

They're expressing things that are real and true about all humans. But there is little room for that reality, that expression, in church.

So more and more, church becomes a sort of desert where I look for a cave or hovel where I can remain who I am, and yet be in the same space as the community I've joined.

And yet, we talk about the importance of being who we are in all places...that my heart, my voice, my mind, might be the same in church as at work or in any other place, without masks.

But the church has no real use for me without the mask. Yes, there are individual churches that have made strides, but in terms of culture...

In Shakespeare's day, an actor could not be buried in a church cemetery. We don't live with that level of hatred...it's merely been replaced, in many cases, with distrust and disinterest.

I can only suspect that God made me this way, with this fire, this passion, this interest. But what a shame that I would have to get to heaven for it to be accepted and used.

You were used today Todd. Your words reached deep into my soul and connected in a very real way. I shared your post with Paul. Perhaps this is where you start, with writing like this. There is something powerful about stumbling upon feelings one has experienced in the writings of another. For me, the one who keeps moving forward despite the darkness is the one whose testimony rings the most true and strengthens my resolve to never succomb, to never take the bait perched upon my scandelon, the ever present stumbling block trap-stick that whispers for me to put on the mask and play a role. Thank you.

Blessings,

Cynthia

[Gene Tatsch]

.... If we are not free to be honest within the church, what good is it? ....It is something other than Jesus' church.
I've ceased to expect Jesus' church in the organized/institutional church ... but sometimes I find a flicker of it's existance even there, often under the radar.
And my quest is yet incomplete.
Houston Thomas (General Discussion: "Nearly 60 percent of young adults leaving the church", post #84) gave an answer that resonates with me: http://www.experiencelumen.com/?page_id=473

[Susan Unger]

Well count me a sinner. :smilies0295:
I am not ashamed to take medication daily for my depression. As a pastor, I decided to let my congregation know ASAP and have been able to reach people in ways that I could not do before. For some reason we have forgotten the words of Paul about the strength we have in admitting our weakness. Love has to be transparent and as long as we hide from our weaknesses it not only robs us of truly loving others but of truly being loved by others.

Preach it!

[Susan Unger]

I think stupid theological comments about depression are more likely a sin than depression.

I agree.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Most of the creative-type friends I had in college have left the church, and in many cases, Christianity altogether. My marked talent among them seems to be simply that I'm much more stubborn than many of them.

But it also means that I get to live with my own frustration at a mounting list of unanswered, and perhaps unanswerable questions.

As somebody who will likely be laity his entire life, I must deal with the fact that I can do various ministries in the church without call or passion, and be just as effective.

There is, perhaps, a sensation, especially among those of us who feel the darkness so keenly and so often, that we should also be able to feel, or at least, pursue, the light.

As a poet and writer, and a vast consumer of media, I am constantly running into accounts and tales from people about life, or the stories that they see in life, that reflect an entire level of commitment and creativity that, for whatever reason, simply isn't allowed or made room for within the church.

But then, the purpose of Church, within our traditions, is to show up, have some good music worship, get preached at, and go home. If I want to use the parts of me that are creative, that tell stories, that explore reality...I have to go somewhere outside of the church to do so.

In short, unless it has to do with teaching sunday school, or leading prayer, or some sort of mentorship, there is no place in the church at large for me as somebody whose soul leaks poetry on a daily basis.

I'm sure there are those who will point me at Psalms for poetry, and that's all well and good, but sometimes a body wants some Billy Collins or e. e. cummings...or my own original set.

I listen to folks on the Nerdist podcast talk about how they've poured their lives and passions into comedy, into the development of their art and their voice, about how it takes 10k performances to get to the point where your voice really begins to show through. And this is every comic out there, not just the really good ones.

They're expressing things that are real and true about all humans. But there is little room for that reality, that expression, in church.

So more and more, church becomes a sort of desert where I look for a cave or hovel where I can remain who I am, and yet be in the same space as the community I've joined.

And yet, we talk about the importance of being who we are in all places...that my heart, my voice, my mind, might be the same in church as at work or in any other place, without masks.

But the church has no real use for me without the mask. Yes, there are individual churches that have made strides, but in terms of culture...

In Shakespeare's day, an actor could not be buried in a church cemetery. We don't live with that level of hatred...it's merely been replaced, in many cases, with distrust and disinterest.

I can only suspect that God made me this way, with this fire, this passion, this interest. But what a shame that I would have to get to heaven for it to be accepted and used.

Your posts resonate with me, as I am sure it does with many. I've thought many times over the last few years that IF we lived closer we could really start something.

I think much to her shame the church doesn't embrace the creative as she should. I say to her shame because if we are to emulate Jesus, who as John tells us, "All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being," making Him the ultimate creative person, shouldn't we be exercising our creativity? Sure, we will pale in comparison, but so what? Isn't the greatest form of worship to try to be like the one worshiped?

[Steven Martinez]

Todd, I understand the difficulty of expressing who you are in a traditional congregation. But I also know that creative people can find creative solutions. There is a guy I disciple in my church who has autism. He has great difficulty sharing his thoughts out loud. However, he likes to write poetry and he is quite good at it. We have included some of his poems in our bulletins as an inspirational/devotional thought for the week. Why not have special readings like we have special music?
I even know some guys who are part of a Bible Study/Discipleship group who play online games together and essential started a mission in the various virtual words. Look at some of the Ashes to Fire videos. Some of them are being made by local churches who have people who are into film.
Perhaps we could start a forum on NazNet for creative arts. We already have a photography forum why not one that people could display their poetry, writings, videos etc?

[Hans Deventer]

Well count me a sinner. :smilies0295:
I am not ashamed to take medication daily for my depression. As a pastor, I decided to let my congregation know ASAP and have been able to reach people in ways that I could not do before. For some reason we have forgotten the words of Paul about the strength we have in admitting our weakness. Love has to be transparent and as long as we hide from our weaknesses it not only robs us of truly loving others but of truly being loved by others.

Henri Nouwen - The Wounded Healer (http://www.amazon.com/Wounded-Healer-Ministry-Contemporary-Society/dp/0385148038)