Why does God save some people from their sins but not others?

[Steve Reece]

Why is it that some people seem to go down to the altar and get saved over and over. Or to put it another way, why do some people get miraculous delivery from sin when they pray, perhaps freed from addictions--alcohol, drugs, porn, whatever--but others pray and seem to earnestly seek God and desire deliverance and never get it? Why does it seem God saves some people from their sins while leaving others to continue to suffer, even though both ask for deliverance?

[Barb Bouldrey]

God saves everyone who asks for salvation. In our 36 years in pastoral ministry I can answer your question with this answer: Some people cannot forgive themselves. Some people cannot discipline themselves to stick with it to maturity. Some people allow the problems of life to defeat them. Some people are drawn back into their old life of sin. Some people say, " I can't do this. It is too hard." Some look for emotions and when the emotions die they think they have lost everything and go back for more emotion.

Those are some of the reasons I have seen people who go to the altar over and over and cannot seem to stay right with God.

I have seen many make one lasting commitment to God at salvation and never walk backwards...but grow forward.

Barb

[Bruce Carriker]

To say that God saves some and not others is a classic Calvinist denial of free will.

One of the things we should know by now (though I'm not sure we do), is that God doesn't always do His work in you the same way He does it in me. And he doesn't always answer our prayers the same way.

I know folks who have prayed earnestly and were delivered from drug addicition; others who prayed just as earnestly and were not. The same can be said of friends I have who are alcoholics and smokers...some have been fully and miraculously delivered, some continue to struggle, some fail. I know folks who have prayed earnestly to be healed and were; and others who prayed just as earnestly and died.

In my own case, before I was saved, I cusses like a sailor. I was an "typical" military guy and I could hardly speak a full sentence without it including a profanity of some type. I liked to drink, especially beer. I was not an alcoholic, but I did like to drink with my friends. I smoiked. When I was saved, my language immediately changed, and I mean that...immediately. And it has never gone back. I lost all desire for alcohol, and except for some churches I've attended that serve real wine when they celebrate the Eucharist, I have not had a drink since. I struggled with tobacco for over three years. Why? I prayed the same way about all three.

But, I was physically addicted to nicotine. God can...but does not always...control the laws of nature, science, etc. Nowhere is there any Biblical promise I can find that assures us that God is obligated to change the consequences of our bad choices just because we ask. I believe He CAN do that whenever He wills. But, sometimes, for reasons we don't understand, we are allowed to suffer the consequences of our bad choices. Maybe, for some people, their testimony is in the faithful struggle, rather than in the victory.

I know many, many Nazarenes...I daresay the majority...who quite obviously struggle with obesity, to one degree or another (myself included). For some of us it is a spiritual issue. God convicted me long ago that a heart attack via Big Mac and a heart attack via Marlboro was still a heart attack, and both were poor stewardship of my health. And yet, most of us continue to commit the sin of gluttony on a regular...sometimes daily...basis.

Why is that? If gluttony is a sin, are skinny people saved and fat people not? And if we're not willing to make that distinction, ought we not be careful to judge the reasons the smoker, the drug addict, the alcoholic, etc, fail...despite their prayers?

[Steve Reece]

God saves everyone who asks for salvation. In our 36 years in pastoral ministry I can answer your question with this answer: Some people cannot forgive themselves. Some people cannot discipline themselves to stick with it to maturity. Some people allow the problems of life to defeat them. Some people are drawn back into their old life of sin. Some people say, " I can't do this. It is too hard." Some look for emotions and when the emotions die they think they have lost everything and go back for more emotion.

Those are some of the reasons I have seen people who go to the altar over and over and cannot seem to stay right with God.

I have seen many make one lasting commitment to God at salvation and never walk backwards...but grow forward.

Barb


What you say makes sense, but what does that say about grace and God's transformation in a person's life? It sounds like it is either still up to the person to save themselves, or that the transformation was somehow inadequate for those people, while adequate for others.

[Steve Reece]

To say that God saves some and not others is a classic Calvinist denial of free will.

I almost titled my post, "Are the Calvinists right?"
But I am thinking about a person who, in their free will seem to want to reconcile with God and raising the question, "Does God, in His free will, reject some people?"

One of the things we should know by now (though I'm not sure we do), is that God doesn't always do His work in you the same way He does it in me. And he doesn't always answer our prayers the same way.
I agree.

But, I was physically addicted to nicotine. God can...but does not always...control the laws of nature, science, etc. Nowhere is there any Biblical promise I can find that assures us that God is obligated to change the consequences of our bad choices just because we ask. I believe He CAN do that whenever He wills. But, sometimes, for reasons we don't understand, we are allowed to suffer the consequences of our bad choices. Maybe, for some people, their testimony is in the faithful struggle, rather than in the victory.

I know many, many Nazarenes...I daresay the majority...who quite obviously struggle with obesity, to one degree or another (myself included). For some of us it is a spiritual issue. God convicted me long ago that a heart attack via Big Mac and a heart attack via Marlboro was still a heart attack, and both were poor stewardship of my health. And yet, most of us continue to commit the sin of gluttony on a regular...sometimes daily...basis.

Why is that? If gluttony is a sin, are skinny people saved and fat people not? And if we're not willing to make that distinction, ought we not be careful to judge the reasons the smoker, the drug addict, the alcoholic, etc, fail...despite their prayers?

I agree with your point on phycial healing, in fact that is how I have always considered the issue of addictions. But the scriptures cast drunkeness, gluttony, sexual promiscuity, as sinfullness. By extension the church has applied this to other addicitions, such as nicotine (God did not heal me from this addiction either, I ended up with help from my doctor and Nicorette gum). Thus if the bible cast certian habitual behaviors as sinful why does God not always deliever the repentant from such sinfullness?

[Billy Cox]

If it is, we wouldn't know would we? I tend to believe in free will and prevenient grace because I cannot accept determinism.

Incidentally, I have yet to meet a person who believes in unconditional election who did not also think they were among the elect.

[Bruce Carriker]

Incidentally, I have yet to meet a person who believes in unconditional election who did not also think they were among the elect.

I could not help laughing when I read this, but you are absolutely correct.

[Steve Reece]

If it is, we wouldn't know would we? I tend to believe in free will and prevenient grace because I cannot accept determinism.

Incidentally, I have yet to meet a person who believes in unconditional election who did not also think they were among the elect.

I am not asking about unconditional election. I am asking about free people who seem to desire a relationship with God, beg for God's intervention in their lives at the alter and do not receive it.

[Bruce Carriker]

Do not receive God's intervention in their lives? Or do not receive it in the way they sought it?

Paul sought God's intervention for the "thorn in his side". Apparently he wanted the thorn removed. God intervened differently...in Paul's weakness, God was strong.

So...simply by not receiving that for which he prayed, did Paul not receive God's intervention?

[Steve Reece]

Do not receive God's intervention in their lives? Or do not receive it in the way they sought it?

Paul sought God's intervention for the "thorn in his side". Apparently he wanted the thorn removed. God intervened differently...in Paul's weakness, God was strong.

So...simply by not receiving that for which he prayed, did Paul not receive God's intervention?

If the thorn in Paul's flesh were sin, then my question would be answerd, "No, God does not save us from sin, not even the Apostle Paul."

But I do not know what the thorn was. I do know Paul exhorted us to be free from that which today we would call addictions, and that he cast those addictions in the language of sin. It would seem inconsistent if Paul exhorted other Christians to be free from sin while he himself still a slave to sin. Maybe he did this or maybe Paul does not really give us such instruction.

Or does the scriptures really not consider addictions sin, and we can look at them as a medical problem for which we ought to have no expetctation of miracle healings.

[Bruce Carriker]

There are probably about thirty inter-related questions/issues in your response, and I'm way too stupid to even try to answer.

But, with specific reference to Paul, what might he have been talking about when he says he does things he wishes he didn't do, and doesn't always do the things he wished to do? Just curious you how understand that.

I think all Christians should be free from sin, and should exhort other Christians towards that goal. I also think there's a reason John wrote, "I write you these things that you might not sin. But if you do sin..."

I don't know whether the Scriptures consider addictions sin or not. But nowhere did I mean to imply that they are "a medical problem for which we ought to have no expectation of miracle healings." I don't think we should ever have an expectation of miracle healings. That's not to say they don't happen, but just as Jesus didn't perform miracles every time he was asked (I think he said something about it being wicked, perverse people who needed supernatural signs), I don't think we can expect God to heal every time, just because we ask.

There is a difference in praying with a full understanding that God CAN do miracles if he chooses, and expecting that God does miracles at our demand.

[Marsha Lynn]

Incidentally, I have yet to meet a person who believes in unconditional election who did not also think they were among the elect.
The classic writer George MacDonald walked away from Calvinism after years of struggling with the fear that he was not among the elect. I would say that many who are raised with a strict application of that doctrine struggle with that fear. After all, how could they, knowing themselves as they do, dare hope that God would choose them over others? It's a sad doctrine that leaves some rejected simply because God turns his back on them before they can even tell good from evil.

[Marsha Lynn]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that some of my worst struggles have taught me the most about the grace of God. Instant deliverance isn't always the greatest gift IMO.

Marsha

Why is it that some people seem to go down to the altar and get saved over and over. Or to put it another way, why do some people get miraculous delivery from sin when they pray, perhaps freed from addictions--alcohol, drugs, porn, whatever--but others pray and seem to earnestly seek God and desire deliverance and never get it? Why does it seem God saves some people from their sins while leaving others to continue to suffer, even though both ask for deliverance?

[Steve Reece]

But, with specific reference to Paul, what might he have been talking about when he says he does things he wishes he didn't do, and doesn't always do the things he wished to do? Just curious you how understand that.

I understand that he is still human and as such has human temptations, and human limitations. I do not subscribe to the idea the Paul is describing himself pre-sanctified then in chapter 7 (of Romans) moving to a post sacntified life. He is a godly man who may still struggle with being man.

I think all Christians should be free from sin, and should exhort other Christians towards that goal. I also think there's a reason John wrote, "I write you these things that you might not sin. But if you do sin..."
Yes, I'm just trying to figure out where the ones who consistently fall in the "But if you do..." clause fit in to the theology and God's salvation. I'm trying to figure out where the victory in Christ is.

I don't know whether the Scriptures consider addictions sin or not. But nowhere did I mean to imply that they are "a medical problem for which we ought to have no expectation of miracle healings." I don't think we should ever have an expectation of miracle healings. That's not to say they don't happen, but just as Jesus didn't perform miracles every time he was asked (I think he said something about it being wicked, perverse people who needed supernatural signs), I don't think we can expect God to heal every time, just because we ask.
Well, maybe you should have implied such a thing. :) I probably would.
I guess I am talking more than addiction, in fact, I wasn't even thinking of the addiction issue as central to my original post. I'm thinking of the ones who seem to get saved over and over but it never takes. But the addiction question is important so I don't mind the direction the thread has gone.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Paul also tells us to work out our own salvation. I have always heard that this means that once we are saved we continue to grow and go forward making sure we stay right with God.

I have seen people in all our pastorates who get saved over and over again...it is because they do not make up their minds that nothing will separate them from the love of God.;

Yes, my will, my determination, my attitude and my daily relationship with God helps keep me saved. God does not forgive me of my sins and then allow me to sit down and do nothing because He has done it all.

Faith without works is dead. Grow in grace. I die daily. We are more than conquerors. Some people never learn that.

[Steve Reece]

Paul also tells us to work out our own salvation. I have always heard that this means that once we are saved we continue to grow and go forward making sure we stay right with God.

I have seen people in all our pastorates who get saved over and over again...it is because they do not make up their minds that nothing will separate them from the love of God.;

Yes, my will, my determination, my attitude and my daily relationship with God helps keep me saved. God does not forgive me of my sins and then allow me to sit down and do nothing because He has done it all.

Faith without works is dead. Grow in grace. I die daily. We are more than conquerors. Some people never learn that.

How would you say the struggles with addictions would fit in with all of this?

[Barb Bouldrey]

Right now we have a church member who is an alcoholic. He is away from church right now because the desire to drink has pulled him away. He likes drinking. But he cannot control it. He is drunk most days by noon.

A person who gets saved and has an addiction may be totally delivered from that addiction by God, but most of the time the must get help and fight it the rest of their lives. It takes a lot of determination, support, and dependence on God.

We have a friend who pastored almost all of his adult life. He was a saved alcoholic. After 40 years of being away from alcohol, he says that if he sees a picture of a bottle of whiskey he can taste it and long for it.

It takes determination and a lot of grace of God to continually overcome an addiction.

But I know some wonderful people who had done it.

Some people are addicted to emotions. If they do not feel saved, they decide they are not saved anymore and give up. I have worked with a friend for years who is just like that.

Barb

[Bruce Carriker]

We have a friend who pastored almost all of his adult life. He was a saved alcoholic. After 40 years of being away from alcohol, he says that if he sees a picture of a bottle of whiskey he can taste it and long for it.

Barb

My grandfather was an ordained elder in the CofN. Near the end of his life, he came to live with my Mom and Dad. Dad was a smoker. One morning Grandpa remarked, "It's been 64 years since I've had a cigarette, and every morning when we (he and my Dad) have coffee and you light up, I still want one."

I do think that there are addictions from which MOST of us are never completely cured. That does not mean we live in constant fear or torment, but that we must be vigilant. I know that if I smoked ONE cigarette right now, it would not be two weeks before I was smoking a pack a day again. I am a recovering nicotine addict. I pray - really - that the desire completely goes away someday. So far it hasn't. Most days it is not a struggle at all. But some days, it is a real struggle.

Do I feel like God is somehow cheating me, because he won't answer my prayer to be completely freed from the desire? Of course not. He didn't cause me to smoke in the first place, so he is under no obligation to remove my addiction just because I realized, too late, how stupid I was. And as I said somewhere else, because of my struggle in this area and with my weight, I am much more cautious about judging other for the areas in their lives where they struggle.

Carte blanche to sin, because we can't help it? Absolutely not! Never!

Patience, acceptance, forgiveness, grace extended to the one who sometimes falls down in their walk with God? Absolutely!

[BobHunt]

I can not get over the double talk of the Calvinists. Tonight coming home on Moody, there was one of their popular preachers saying something about every time we sin we fall. But then, we hear its impossible to fall out of a relationship with God. So what are we falling from?

[Billy Cox]

Whereas sensitive Calvinists may fear that they are not among the elect, sensitive Wesleyans live in fear of losing their salvation/sanctification.

It seems that all the fear is counter to the Biblical message of hope.

[Billy Cox]

It is brilliant that Paul did not identify what the thorn was.

Incidentally you can find out alot about a person by asking them what they think the thorn might have been. The response more often is the source of struggle for the person answering.

[Ian Gentles]

Ere its predestined? ;)
Actualy a Calvanist dosent beleive that either, they would say the desire for salvation is put into the ellects heart!!
I think our phsychological make up has a lot to do with it. Just that old illistration, and its a real one, someone who's father wasnt loving to them has trouble with idea of a Fathers love!

[Steve Reece]

Incidentally you can find out alot about a person by asking them what they think the thorn might have been. The response more often is the source of struggle for the person answering.

In that case, I am guessing that the thorn was theological brilliance. :basic05