Where could the next GA be, after 2013?

[Hans Deventer]

For the sake of the argument, I'd like to propose the following situation:

The BoGS has appointed you as member of a committee that needs to select a site for the next General Assembly and Conventions. They say they have a preference for a place outside the USA, if possible.

Of course, several issues need to be addressed.

1. The visa situation must be such that the greatest possible number of delegates can attend.

2. Political stability and security are a top priority (Kabul, Afghanistan, might not be the best option, for instance).

3. We understand less US Nazarenes will be able to attend due to travel expenses. Do seek to allow for as many "international" Nazarenes to attend as possible.

4. Normally, we're talking about a place that needs to be able to seat 1100 delegates and their desks, and because of the simultaneous Conventions, we need two of these halls.

5. Then we also need a place where some 25000 people can attend a church service.

6. The location needs to be relatively close to an airport with sufficient capacity to fly in at least some 20000 people within a few days.

7. We also need accommodations sufficient to house all visitors in a decent way.

8. Considering the many folks in the USA who will want to follow at least some of the services and meetings, a solid infrastructure is necessary to be able to broadcast these through the internet.

9. Many districts provide funds for international delegates to attend. If they had to spend those on their own travel expenses, we'd have a problem. Propose a solution.

10. Provide 3 places where we can select from.

What would your suggestions be?

[David Morris]

3. We understand less US Nazarenes will be able to attend due to travel expenses. Do seek to allow for as many "international" Nazarenes to attend as possible.

Hans,
In your opinion, are USA Nazarenes the only ones that look at everyone else as "international?" Do you see another Nazarene from your region, or someone from Africa/S. America/Asia, as an "international?"

The way we use the word often frustrates me. It always seems to come across as "us" vs. "them."

One of the things I enjoyed the most while participating in the NYI Third Wave event was that we had 200+ brothers and sisters from 50+ countries, all in Thailand together. No one there was considered an international participant. For me, it made the world smaller and the Church bigger.

[Jon Twitchell]

Another qualification might be to consider a place where we could make a significant, positive impact, simply by our presence.

[Hans Deventer]

Hans,
In your opinion, are USA Nazarenes the only ones that look at everyone else as "international?" Do you see another Nazarene from your region, or someone from Africa/S. America/Asia, as an "international?"

1. I think so
2. No

I only used the word because it appears to be standard among US Nazarenes, so you'd all know what I am talking about.

[Ryan Scott]

Logistically, I think Toronto makes the most sense right now.

Perhaps in another four years a place like Rio or Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires will make sense (right now there's not really enough direct flights from Africa and Asia for it to be feasible). Otherwise a European city where many international flights will have to layover anyway could work.

I still Toronto makes the most sense. A lot of GA staffing is done by people from the US - without radically redesigning how things are done (exhibit halls, etc) it would have to be cost effective to get staffing there from Kansas City.

There are few, if any, visa issues with delegates getting into Canada.

[David Morris]

1. I think so
2. No

I only used the word because it appears to be standard among US Nazarenes, so you'd all know what I am talking about.

Thanks for the feedback...it's helpful. Unfortunately, I do know what you are talking about...I wish it wasn't viewed as "us" and "them."

Not trying to take the thread a different direction, was just curious of your opinion.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I'd be okay with it being elsewhere, but I think it'll stay in the states, likely back in Indy. Ultimately, it will be a financial decision.

I'll long remember a conversation I had with a pastor from Papua New Guinea at the NazNet booth in Orlando. He told me that he had dreamed of visiting the United States all his life and that it seemed to be an impossible dream. Then, he gave his heart to Jesus and not only was his whole life changed, but now he was blessed by realizing his lifelong dream - he thanked the Lord for the opportunity to come to GA in the USA.

Just a reminder that not all outside-of-America church leaders want the GA moved outside the States.

[Ryan Scott]

I'd be okay with it being elsewhere, but I think it'll stay in the states, likely back in Indy. Ultimately, it will be a financial decision.

I'll long remember a conversation I had with a pastor from Papua New Guinea at the NazNet booth in Orlando. He told me that he had dreamed of visiting the United States all his life and that it seemed to be an impossible dream. Then, he gave his heart to Jesus and not only was his whole life changed, but now he was blessed by realizing his lifelong dream - he thanked the Lord for the opportunity to come to GA in the USA.

Just a reminder that not all outside-of-America church leaders want the GA moved outside the States.


But the question is, does fulfilling some dreams to visit the US trump 20+% of the delegates not getting visas?

Are we in it for the "family reunion" atmosphere or are we trying to do a representative business meeting?

I think Toronto can balance the two.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

But the question is, does fulfilling some dreams to visit the US trump 20+% of the delegates not getting visas?

Are we in it for the "family reunion" atmosphere or are we trying to do a representative business meeting?

I think Toronto can balance the two.

I think you are setting up a false choice. If I accepted your logic I'd assume that if the GA was moved out side the country that 100% of the delegates would be able to obtain visas. I think there would be visa problems for some folks in most any country.

Just remember, I'm just giving a practical response, and not necessarily a preference.

(Plus that, you guys would have no conversation if everyone just agreed) :smile:

[Hans Deventer]

I think there would be visa problems for some folks in most any country.

Sure. But some countries are easier than others.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Sure. But some countries are easier than others.

I'm not the world traveler that some are (including you!) - but I was just responding to a statement that's intended to leave the impression that if the GA was moved out of the USA that those supposed 20% would be able to get in just fine.

Also, I'll add that dismissing my story about the PNG delegate is short sighted. I didn't claim that everyone dreams of coming to the USA, just that that aspect of the location of the GA hadn't been brought up. My guess, though, is that a lot of people would pick the USA if they were only going to visit another country once in their lifetimes.

[Craig Laughlin]

Logistically, I think Toronto makes the most sense right now.

Perhaps in another four years a place like Rio or Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires will make sense (right now there's not really enough direct flights from Africa and Asia for it to be feasible). Otherwise a European city where many international flights will have to layover anyway could work.

I still Toronto makes the most sense. A lot of GA staffing is done by people from the US - without radically redesigning how things are done (exhibit halls, etc) it would have to be cost effective to get staffing there from Kansas City.

There are few, if any, visa issues with delegates getting into Canada.

I think you are spot on. I think there will have to be baby steps and Toronto would be a good beginning toward a larger goal.

[Ryan Scott]

I think you are setting up a false choice. If I accepted your logic I'd assume that if the GA was moved out side the country that 100% of the delegates would be able to obtain visas. I think there would be visa problems for some folks in most any country.


When Indy had to back out of the 2009 assembly (probably 2005 or earlier) I was working at HQ and was polled, among others, about possible replacements by the persons coordinating GA at the time. We talked a bit about options - he strongly suggested Toronto because 99% of the delegates could get visas. I'm thinking he's a good source.

I will admit that often some delegates don't start the process early enough to get visas in time, so we might be lower, but at each GA there are delegates who are prepared to come who can't because it's in the US.

[Dave McClung]

For the sake of the argument, I'd like to propose the following situation:

The BoGS has appointed you as member of a committee that needs to select a site for the next General Assembly and Conventions. They say they have a preference for a place outside the USA, if possible.

Of course, several issues need to be addressed.

1. The visa situation must be such that the greatest possible number of delegates can attend.

2. Political stability and security are a top priority (Kabul, Afghanistan, might not be the best option, for instance).

3. We understand less US Nazarenes will be able to attend due to travel expenses. Do seek to allow for as many "international" Nazarenes to attend as possible.

4. Normally, we're talking about a place that needs to be able to seat 1100 delegates and their desks, and because of the simultaneous Conventions, we need two of these halls.

5. Then we also need a place where some 25000 people can attend a church service.

6. The location needs to be relatively close to an airport with sufficient capacity to fly in at least some 20000 people within a few days.

7. We also need accommodations sufficient to house all visitors in a decent way.

8. Considering the many folks in the USA who will want to follow at least some of the services and meetings, a solid infrastructure is necessary to be able to broadcast these through the internet.

9. Many districts provide funds for international delegates to attend. If they had to spend those on their own travel expenses, we'd have a problem. Propose a solution.

10. Provide 3 places where we can select from.

What would your suggestions be?

I predict that we will never have a general assembly outside the U.S. I am not sure the logistics are even possible. It is much more likely that future "General Assemblies" will be virtual. Just think of the savings if delegates from each region met on the region and were connected by video.

I love the General Assembly and would attend where ever it was, but I am also very senstive to the cost. I am not sure it will be possible to fund a General Assembly as we have done in the past. Even if it is possible, more and more people are raising the issue of "Stewardship." Is the Nazarene General Assembly the best use of the millions and millions of dollars we spend?


I was on the General Assembly site committee the year that we considered having it in Toronto. One of the barriers was the cost of union labor. Most General Assemblies rely heavily on Nazarene volunteers from the local area. At that time, it was believed that there weren't enough Nazarenes in Toronto to do the necessary volunteer labor so it would be necessary to hire union labor to replace the volunteers. It didn't economically make sense.

That same year, we considered St. Louis. There were a number of issues with St. Louis that couldn't be resolved.

[Hans Deventer]

[...]It didn't economically make sense.

Dave, I've said it before but I am very willing to repeat it, I don't believe any GA makes sense in terms of economics or stewardship, where ever it may be held. Have that combined with what I've seen as to decisions made, items referred, issues discussed, and the indecent linking of money and power in the way delegates are elected, and I am totally convinced there are better and cheaper ways to deal with its business.

As to the fellowship element, it seems to me the M-conferences in the USA and the Regional Conferences abroad are sufficient. I like the idea of a world wide church, but I don't think a world wide gathering is needed. I'd be happy to assign quite some duties to the General Board.

[Ryan Scott]

I predict that we will never have a general assembly outside the U.S. I am not sure the logistics are even possible. It is much more likely that future "General Assemblies" will be virtual. Just think of the savings if delegates from each region met on the region and were connected by video.

I love the General Assembly and would attend where ever it was, but I am also very senstive to the cost. I am not sure it will be possible to fund a General Assembly as we have done in the past. Even if it is possible, more and more people are raising the issue of "Stewardship." Is the Nazarene General Assembly the best use of the millions and millions of dollars we spend?


I was on the General Assembly site committee the year that we considered having it in Toronto. One of the barriers was the cost of union labor. Most General Assemblies rely heavily on Nazarene volunteers from the local area. At that time, it was believed that there weren't enough Nazarenes in Toronto to do the necessary volunteer labor so it would be necessary to hire union labor to replace the volunteers. It didn't economically make sense.

That same year, we considered St. Louis. There were a number of issues with St. Louis that couldn't be resolved.



Of course, at the last GA in Indy, in 2005, I was working for HQ and we ran into union problems anyway. A lot of us who were paid employees were not allowed to do any work on the exhibit hall - only people who weren't being paid. There weren't a lot of them around (since normally HQ staff set most of it up) so we had to negotiate with the stewards there and eventually pay for some work to be done anyway.

I assume they've figured this out for 2013.

[Scott Moseley]

Having a GA every 4 years is IMO a bit overdone, but as long as you are looking for NON US destinations. How about CUBA? If the Pope can go ...? Havana is holding international conventions. Perhaps in 4 years Direct flights from the US will be available. If CUBA must wait and the GA must be held outside of the US, then Mexico City seems the clear cut front runner. Toronto is a cool destination and a great choice for a conference , but isn't that still considered North America ?

[Ryan Scott]

Can we admit the elephant in the room? Lots of people, many of them elected delegates, are afraid to travel to a country like Mexico or Brazil and wouldn't go if GA was held there.

[Jon Twitchell]

Why don't we just charter a cruise ship?

We could schedule a couple of ports for picking people up... and then just have our meeting in the middle of the Atlantic.

[Ryan Scott]

Why don't we just charter a cruise ship?

We could schedule a couple of ports for picking people up... and then just have our meeting in the middle of the Atlantic.

International waters! Truly appropriate for an international church.

[Wes Smith]

Writing this from San Jose, Costa Rica, and suggesting this would be a beautiful Country for GA and a fantastic setting for pre- and post GA vacations and W&W projects! CR is highly accessable and neutral in regards to world conflicts. We have a wonderful seminary here and a host of locals who would do a super job of rolling out the red carpet!

Friend,

Wes

[Ryan Scott]

Writing this from San Jose, Costa Rica, and suggesting this would be a beautiful Country for GA and a fantastic setting for pre- and post GA vacations and W&W projects! CR is highly accessable and neutral in regards to world conflicts. We have a wonderful seminary here and a host of locals who would do a super job of rolling out the red carpet!

Friend,

Wes

There's also frequent and affordable airline travel from the US on a variety of carriers.

[David Pettigrew]

Why don't we just charter a cruise ship?

We could schedule a couple of ports for picking people up... and then just have our meeting in the middle of the Atlantic.

1) cost
2) size - no ship would be big enough to accomodate all delegates and families
3) cruise ships rely too heavily on overpriced alcohol sales to charter an entire ship to a non- drinking group during the busiest travel season.

[Jon Twitchell]

1) cost
2) size - no ship would be big enough to accomodate all delegates and families
3) cruise ships rely too heavily on overpriced alcohol sales to charter an entire ship to a non- drinking group during the busiest travel season.

I know. Sorry... I forgot the smiley. :)

[Gina Stevenson]

1) cost
2) size - no ship would be big enough to accomodate all delegates and families
3) cruise ships rely too heavily on overpriced alcohol sales to charter an entire ship to a non- drinking group during the busiest travel season.

Someone always has to come along and insist on seeing the pragmatic side of things! :smilies1722: :smilies0262: :smilies1722:

[Ryan Scott]

I saw on one site a quoted from for the Caribbean Liberty of the Seas cruise ship (a 4,500 passenger vessel) rents for $9m per week, plus $3m bar tab. That's a $12m cost for week, with more than enough room for delegates and quite a few guests. That's still $2667 per person, plus the cost of flights to the port of call. Not cheap.

I know we spend a lot on GA, but even that might be an increase in price.

[David Pettigrew]

Does that take into account the crew? On a ship that size it would be at least 900-1000.


I saw on one site a quoted from for the Caribbean Liberty of the Seas cruise ship (a 4,500 passenger vessel) rents for $9m per week, plus $3m bar tab. That's a $12m cost for week, with more than enough room for delegates and quite a few guests. That's still $2667 per person, plus the cost of flights to the port of call. Not cheap.

I know we spend a lot on GA, but even that might be an increase in price.

[Ryan Scott]

Does that take into account the crew? On a ship that size it would be at least 900-1000.

It said passenger capacity, so yes, I assume it comes with a crew in addition to the 4,500 capacity.

[Jim Franklin]

Montreal or Toronto, Canada, Joburg, South Africa or Seoul, Korea. Montreal probably meets all of the needed infrastructure and is close enough for many North Americans can travel, Johannesburg would give recognition to where the denomination is growing the most and Seoul, Korea recognizes where our denomination is having a major impact on the nation. I think the last two places could meet the requirements as well.

[John Reilly]

I suggest Holland! With excursions led by Hans. Met vriendelijke groet.

[Jim Franklin]

We've already had GAs in Dallas, San Antonio and Anaheim, don't those places rate as international locations. I am sure Oklahomans would think so.

[David Snodgrass]

Nashville, TN is building a brand new convention center. Not sure the capacity, but Nashville would be a good location. Plus, it would be nice to have GA in the same city as a Nazarene university.

[Roy Richardson]

Logistically, I think Toronto makes the most sense right now.

Perhaps in another four years a place like Rio or Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires will make sense (right now there's not really enough direct flights from Africa and Asia for it to be feasible). Otherwise a European city where many international flights will have to layover anyway could work.

I still Toronto makes the most sense. A lot of GA staffing is done by people from the US - without radically redesigning how things are done (exhibit halls, etc) it would have to be cost effective to get staffing there from Kansas City.

There are few, if any, visa issues with delegates getting into Canada.

Toronto, maybe Vancouver, which successfully hosted an Olympics

[Roy Richardson]

Nashville, TN is building a brand new convention center. Not sure the capacity, but Nashville would be a good location. Plus, it would be nice to have GA in the same city as a Nazarene university.

Seoul has a really nice airport I hear. And a Nazarene University nearby

[Billy Cox]

Toronto, maybe Vancouver, which successfully hosted an Olympics

The denomination prefers cities where they will be treated as a 'big fish' conference. Compared to the Olympics, our general assembly is small fish, maybe even microbial.

[Kevin Rector]

The denomination prefers cities where they will be treated as a 'big fish' conference. Compared to the Olympics, our general assembly is small fish, maybe even microbial.

I doubt it. I think cities like any conference that generates economic activity.

[David Pettigrew]

The problem with any city hosting us is we don't generate alcohol revenue. It's why we got bumped in Houston after we had booked their for '93 (?) and ended up in Indianapolis in the first place.

[David Pettigrew]

Correction: '93 was our second trip to the Hoosier Dome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Church_of_the_Nazarene_conventions

[Ryan Scott]

Our conference is actually a pretty big one, in comparison - both in attendance and length. There aren't a lot of cities with facilities big enough to house everything we bring.

That being said, we do tend to work cheap and not spend money on alcohol - so we don't generate as much as the average conference our size, but it's still big.

Louisville has been trying to bribe us to come with super cheap deals on a number of smaller Nazarene conferences that have been held there over the last four years.

[Lucas Finch]

Louisville has been trying to bribe us to come with super cheap deals on a number of smaller Nazarene conferences that have been held there over the last four years.

I think that Louisville worked pretty good for NYC2011. A few hiccups here and there, but overall a nice location. Not sure how it would be for something as big as GA, though.

[Hans Deventer]

Correction: '93 was our second trip to the Hoosier Dome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Church_of_the_Nazarene_conventions

Nice page, isn't it? Just the other day I added the information on the 2013 conventions :smile:

[David Snodgrass]

Seoul has a really nice airport I hear. And a Nazarene University nearby

Touche'

[Billy Cox]

I doubt it. I think cities like any conference that generates economic activity.

That wasn't opinion, it was fact. There are plenty of good reasons why the denomination prefers Indianapolis, not the least of which is that Indy is not a major conference destination, so they like us...alot.

[Billy Cox]

Our conference is actually a pretty big one, in comparison - both in attendance and length. There aren't a lot of cities with facilities big enough to house everything we bring.

That being said, we do tend to work cheap and not spend money on alcohol - so we don't generate as much as the average conference our size, but it's still big.

What is big (for the host city) is the opportunity cost; the more lucrative conferences that a city like Atlanta, Philadelphia or Denver would have to say 'no' to if they said 'yes' to the Nazarenes. If Indianapolis has the so-called 'conference capacity' for the General Assembly, it's mostly because they are a third-string conference destination.

[Ryan Scott]

What is big (for the host city) is the opportunity cost; the more lucrative conferences that a city like Atlanta, Philadelphia or Denver would have to say 'no' to if they said 'yes' to the Nazarenes. If Indianapolis has the so-called 'conference capacity' for the General Assembly, it's mostly because they are a third-string conference destination.

Indy's convention center is currently the 16th largest in the US - previously it was smaller, but access to the Dome allowed for us to use more space. There really aren't a lot of options for a convention the size of General Assembly. Sure, we might not be first on the list for Chicago, Las Vegas or New York - but Indy has a great set-up for us - and there really are few venues with the sheer space and nearby hotel capacity to do GA the way it's been done.

Denver might have a large convention center, but it would be much more difficult logistically than Indy is.

[Roy Richardson]

when I was on the Eastern Michigan District, I tried to get the DS to push for a GA in Detroit. It has the capacity, and there are abundant "One Heart Many Hands" opportunities there. Hotel rooms might be an issue since many of them are in casinos

[Billy Cox]

Indy's convention center is currently the 16th largest in the US - previously it was smaller, but access to the Dome allowed for us to use more space. There really aren't a lot of options for a convention the size of General Assembly. Sure, we might not be first on the list for Chicago, Las Vegas or New York - but Indy has a great set-up for us - and there really are few venues with the sheer space and nearby hotel capacity to do GA the way it's been done.

Denver might have a large convention center, but it would be much more difficult logistically than Indy is.

I'm not complaining, just saying that I understand why Indy is a choice location for the denomination.

We also like thinking that we're a major player on the national conference stage, and that's just a bit of corporate puffery. So Indy says they have the 16th largest convention center in the US; according to Wikipedia the Indiana Convention Center isn't even in the top 25 in terms of square footage. They are the 12th largest city, so perhaps they are even laggards in this respect.

Indianapolis is a small market city that will be more likely to roll out the red carpet to a small denomination's quadrennial conference than a top-drawer city that would see our GA as a small-potatoes opportunity.

[Billy Cox]

when I was on the Eastern Michigan District, I tried to get the DS to push for a GA in Detroit. It has the capacity, and there are abundant "One Heart Many Hands" opportunities there. Hotel rooms might be an issue since many of them are in casinos

There aren't enough rich Nazarenes in Detroit.

[Ryan Scott]

a top-drawer city that would see our GA as a small-potatoes opportunity.

I don't think this is true. A bigger city might not make us the only show in town like Indy does, which is nice - but $44m (the estimated economic impact the last time we were in Indy) is nothing any CVB would sneeze at - even in New York or Vegas.

[Dan Henderson]

Opryland

[Hans Deventer]

There aren't enough rich Nazarenes in Detroit.

What do you mean, Billy? Are there so many rich Nazarenes in Indy that their support changes the financial picture significantly?

[Billy Cox]

What do you mean, Billy? Are there so many rich Nazarenes in Indy that their support changes the financial picture significantly?

Surely there is nothing wrong with choosing the GA site based on existing financial infrastructure?? Everybody likes home-field advantage, and the only place more 'home-field' than Indianapolis is Kansas City.

I know you're used to Billy the cynic, but this is Billy the pragmatic realist.

[Hans Deventer]

Surely there is nothing wrong with choosing the GA site based on existing financial infrastructure?? Everybody likes home-field advantage, and the only place more 'home-field' than Indianapolis is Kansas City.

I know you're used to Billy the cynic, but this is Billy the pragmatic realist.

So there were also enough rich Nazarenes in San Antonio and Orlando? I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand. The GA costs an incredible amount of money. I'm surprised that local wealth would play such a significant role, and I don't understand how. If one would care to explain, please do.

[Ryan Scott]

So there were also enough rich Nazarenes in San Antonio and Orlando? I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand. The GA costs an incredible amount of money. I'm surprised that local wealth would play such a significant role, and I don't understand how. If one would care to explain, please do.

It's not so much wealth, but they do rely on lots of local volunteers. Louisville is most central to the most Nazarenes in terms of attendance, but Indy has a great location for the sheer number of available volunteers.

[Hans Deventer]

It's not so much wealth, but they do rely on lots of local volunteers. Louisville is most central to the most Nazarenes in terms of attendance, but Indy has a great location for the sheer number of available volunteers.

Yes, that's what I also understood as well. Seems to be the main reason why it is difficult to go anywhere else.

[Dan Henderson]

Opryland, there is a Nazarene church on practically every corner in Nashville, at least there was when I was growing up

[Billy Cox]

I don't think this is true. A bigger city might not make us the only show in town like Indy does, which is nice - but $44m (the estimated economic impact the last time we were in Indy) is nothing any CVB would sneeze at - even in New York or Vegas.

The latest FFA convention in Indy had a projected economic impact of $40M (http://www.indystar.com/article/20111015/NEWS11/310160001/super-bowl-2012-indianapolis-ffa)in 3 days. By comparison, the 'estimated' $44M for 10 days of GA is like shifting the economic engine into neutral and coasting for a week and a half.

Suffice to say that the General Assembly isn't on any Convention/Visitor's Bureau in New York or Las Vegas. It's okay to be a minor league convention. Those annual conventions in top-tier cities are REALLY expensive.

[Billy Cox]

Yes, that's what I also understood as well. Seems to be the main reason why it is difficult to go anywhere else.

Until the scope of the General Assembly is changed, we're more or less stuck with Indianapolis.

[Hans Deventer]

Opryland, there is a Nazarene church on practically every corner in Nashville, at least there was when I was growing up

No direct flights from Europe either. That's no improvement. :(

[Dan Henderson]

No direct flights from Europe either. That's no improvement. :(

I don't think of those kinds of things, everywhere the Air Force sends me ends up as a direct flight ... more or less.

[Billy Cox]

So there were also enough rich Nazarenes in San Antonio and Orlando? I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand. The GA costs an incredible amount of money. I'm surprised that local wealth would play such a significant role, and I don't understand how. If one would care to explain, please do.

San Antonio was an aberration. South Texas district, even after merging San Antonio and Houston districts, is quite weak as districts go. You could ask someone in the know about the specifics, but I understand that the denomination got taken to the cleaners. The years when we try the non-Indy route serve to remind us why we have most GAs in Indy.

I don't know what kind of incentives got us to Orlando, but someone on the General Board could likely fill you in.

[Hans Deventer]

I don't think of those kinds of things, everywhere the Air Force sends me ends up as a direct flight ... more or less.

Always on my mind. I love direct flights. Then you don't have to worry how long it's going to take to pass customs and immigration service before you can catch your next plane. Now it's actually not bad, there are lots of US cities with a direct connection. Just from the top of my head: LA, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis/St Paul, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinatti, Boston, NYC, DC, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Orlando, Houston. And there's probably more. It's a subject of interest to me :)

[David Pettigrew]

Everyone seems to have this picture of Indy as a stronghold of Nazarenedom. With 59 organized churches, the district is actually quite average by USA standards, and has been in a statistical decline for the last two decades. For years, Indy was a perceived center for legalism in the CotN, but I think even that has changed somewhat.

[Dan Henderson]

Let's have the next GA in Capetown SA

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Everyone seems to have this picture of Indy as a stronghold of Nazarenedom. With 59 organized churches, the district is actually quite average by USA standards, and has been in a statistical decline for the last two decades. For years, Indy was a perceived center for legalism in the CotN, but I think even that has changed somewhat.

I don't guess Indy itself is the center of Nazarenedom in the USA, but I do think Indiana/Ohio together probably is.

http://nazarene.org/files/docs/NazareneChurchesUS.pdf

http://nazarene.org/files/docs/worship1.pdf

http://nazarene.org/files/docs/NazAdhBG.pdf

[Jon Twitchell]

By the way... all of this discussion about the size of our assembly/conventions reminded me...

The other day I read an article about the UMC General Conference (which is happening right now.) It's a four-year global conference like ours. The UMC is a MUCH larger denomination than ours. But the statistic I read indicated that they would have 1000 delegates and an additional 2500 guests... which is significantly smaller than our assembly. I realize that doesn't put us on the same playing field as a RNC or DNC... but as far as religious conventions go, ours might be more significant then we realize.

[David Pettigrew]

Everyone on naznet seems to want to confuse me with the facts these days...

I was referring to just the Indianapolis district and not the whole state, but still, point taken. Those were really cool maps! Dallas doesn't look so shabby.

If the point is making an impact, maybe we should go out west for 2017. I hear Salt Lake City is nice.


I don't guess Indy itself is the center of Nazarenedom in the USA, but I do think Indiana/Ohio together probably is.

http://nazarene.org/files/docs/NazareneChurchesUS.pdf

http://nazarene.org/files/docs/worship1.pdf

http://nazarene.org/files/docs/NazAdhBG.pdf

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Everyone on naznet seems to want to confuse me with the facts these days...

I was referring to just the Indianapolis district and not the whole state, but still, point taken. Those were really cool maps! Dallas doesn't look so shabby.

If the point is making an impact, maybe we should go out west for 2017. I hear Salt Lake City is nice.

Looking at the second map reminds me of something that I was told several years ago. If you draw a circle around Indianapolis reaching out 600 miles (maybe it was just 300 miles - 600 across) more than half the Nazarenes in the US will be inside that circle. It looks as if that's still true.

[Dan Henderson]

Princes Cruise Line - Then we could just swing around to the different continents and pick up the delegates. Then you could have the assemby in international waters.

[Billy Cox]

I realize that doesn't put us on the same playing field as a RNC or DNC... but as far as religious conventions go, ours might be more significant then we realize.

Really?? That would be spectacular if we were in the religious convention business.

There is an organizational value to conventions but their missional value is indirect AT BEST. I wonder how many missionaries we could train and send, or how many world areas we could open with the $4M that the GMC is spending in the event. I won't even touch on all of the money that goes into the pockets of airlines, hotels, restaurants, gas stations.

Some boast that we spread $44M around Indianaplois during our general assembly, I feel shame and maybe a bit of rage...not so much because of the amount of money but because we take pride in it.

[Ryan Scott]

It is a shame. I've always thought we should get rid of everything, but the business meeting. It's still a pretty massive undertaking, but it would be a better use of our time and money.

[Eric Frey]

By the way... all of this discussion about the size of our assembly/conventions reminded me...

The other day I read an article about the UMC General Conference (which is happening right now.) It's a four-year global conference like ours. The UMC is a MUCH larger denomination than ours. But the statistic I read indicated that they would have 1000 delegates and an additional 2500 guests... which is significantly smaller than our assembly. I realize that doesn't put us on the same playing field as a RNC or DNC... but as far as religious conventions go, ours might be more significant then we realize.

And more bloated than necessary?

[David Pettigrew]

Meeting every four years is fun. Being Nazarene means being part of a family. If we never get together, why bother having a denomination at all? I love General Assembly, and will be really sad if we ever do away with it.

That 44 million means JOBS for people in Indianapolis - people that need those jobs. I think that has more of an impact than much of our denominational budget.

One Heart, Many Hands makes a great impact on any city we bless with our business.

Seriously, this cynical belly aching is wearing on my nerves and the searching for a foul motive in every decision that is made is getting really old.

[Rich Schmidt]

The other day I read an article about the UMC General Conference (which is happening right now.) It's a four-year global conference like ours. The UMC is a MUCH larger denomination than ours. But the statistic I read indicated that they would have 1000 delegates and an additional 2500 guests... which is significantly smaller than our assembly.

How do they structure that? I mean, how are those delegates selected, etc? Is it a structure that we could conceivably move to? Such a gathering would be much simpler than our current GA's.

And, as others mentioned, we have other conferences and gatherings (like the M conferences) for those looking for the "family reunion" connections. I've been to most of the M-conferences and enjoyed them very much.

OK, back on-topic: I was going to say, "Pick any major European city," as they all have international airports and probably have convention space... but then someone mentioned the need for local Nazarene volunteers, and Europe has very few Nazarenes.

If Seoul or Johannesburg or Toronto work, I'm game.

Well... realistically, I might not make it, if I'm not a delegate. I didn't even bother to go to Orlando! :)

[Jon Twitchell]

How do they structure that? I mean, how are those delegates selected, etc? Is it a structure that we could conceivably move to? Such a gathering would be much simpler than our current GA's.



I don't know... I'm sorry.

I don't even know for sure that the article was accurate... although I bounced it off one UMC minister who said it sounded about right, but that he'd never been, so he didn't know.

Part of the size of our GA may also be related to the fact that we have separate conventions which run concurrently... and we may also simply elect a lot more delegates! I just don't know. sorry.

[Kyle Borger]

Salt Lake City. That would be interesting. Volunteers might be hard to come by. They average 135 Nazarenes between 3 churches for the entire state. Then again the LDS church is very helpful and they might supply a bunch of volunteers. At least I might be able to go to that one. Never have been to one myself.

I would suggest Cody WY, but Hans might complain since we only have 2 flights a day and I am sure the connections required are numerous. Instead of everyone in hotels we could really make it a woodstock kind of event. We have a lot of open space out here so everyone could just bring their own tent. Imagine the savings! Just get a generator, a big stage, and some portable lights. Everyone could just bring their own chairs.

But now that I think about it, the cruise line does sound more fun. Just rent a small island for the stage and have 10 cruise ships dock around the island for the meetings. Who cares about the cost. Church is all about us isn't it?:horse:

[Marsha Lynn]

I don't have any suggestions, but can't resist posting from the lobby of the Hyatt Regency in downtown Indianapolis with some comments.


By the way... all of this discussion about the size of our assembly/conventions reminded me...

The other day I read an article about the UMC General Conference (which is happening right now.) It's a four-year global conference like ours. The UMC is a MUCH larger denomination than ours. But the statistic I read indicated that they would have 1000 delegates and an additional 2500 guests... which is significantly smaller than our assembly. I realize that doesn't put us on the same playing field as a RNC or DNC... but as far as religious conventions go, ours might be more significant then we realize.

I'm here for an international conference concerning a specific type of open source integrated library software (Evergreen). There are around 300 attendees from ten countries. We're occupying one section of the Hyatt. There are at least two other conferences going on in the area, including one for occupational therapists in the new convention center (just down the street) which has around 10,000 attenders by the estimate of a participant I talked to in the elevator. That's a lot of name tags but not nearly so many as when the Nazarenes come to town. We're certainly not the biggest game in town but might be bigger than average.


Meeting every four years is fun. Being Nazarene means being part of a family. If we never get together, why bother having a denomination at all? I love General Assembly, and will be really sad if we ever do away with it. .

This morning's keynote speaker at the conference I'm attending was Jono Bacon. He has two primary identities -- 1) a major role in the Ubuntu community; 2) author of the book The Art of Community (http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Community-Building-Participation/dp/0596156715/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1335465337&sr=8-2). (I felt a bit guilty as I listened and took notes because I was on the clock for the library but totally focused on how his comments apply to the church. I now have the book downloaded and ready to go on my ereader.)

Among other things, Bacon talked about how in the world of software end-users prefer forums but developers want email listservers. Still, a face-to-face gathering like this one builds community in a way that can never happen online. Right now, four young men have gathered in my "space" and are carrying on an animated conversation connected to an upcoming session. It's interesting to think about how long it would take them over the internet to exchange the same number of on-topic words that have floated past me in the past half hour.

In a world in which the word "distance" is often put together with "education" and travel to a single destination is viewed as a waste of time and money, I like this reminder that sometimes what is most needed to build community is to gather the members of that community into one physical space and facilitate face-to-face communication. I love the family feel of General Assembly.

Marsha

[John Reilly]

I suggest Holland! With excursions led by Hans. Met vriendelijke groet.

[Roy Richardson]

Salt Lake City. That would be interesting. Volunteers might be hard to come by. They average 135 Nazarenes between 3 churches for the entire state. Then again the LDS church is very helpful and they might supply a bunch of volunteers. At least I might be able to go to that one. Never have been to one myself.

I would suggest Cody WY, but Hans might complain since we only have 2 flights a day and I am sure the connections required are numerous. Instead of everyone in hotels we could really make it a woodstock kind of event. We have a lot of open space out here so everyone could just bring their own tent. Imagine the savings! Just get a generator, a big stage, and some portable lights. Everyone could just bring their own chairs.

But now that I think about it, the cruise line does sound more fun. Just rent a small island for the stage and have 10 cruise ships dock around the island for the meetings. Who cares about the cost. Church is all about us isn't it?:horse:


No, no no, you have your thinking all wrong. Think outdoor campmeeting revival type thing with a Charles Finney feel to it. Then you could sell it. :)

[Billy Cox]

Meeting every four years is fun. Being Nazarene means being part of a family. If we never get together, why bother having a denomination at all? I love General Assembly, and will be really sad if we ever do away with it.

If 'we' is several thousand people in a denomination approaching 2 million, then plenty of 'us' have never been to a GA and never will. I'm blown away by this line of reasoning; "if we can't get together every four years to overeat and talk shop for 10 straight days, then why bother having a denomination." Really??

But I have to congratulate you on being a regular part of the Nazarene version of the 1 percent.


That 44 million means JOBS for people in Indianapolis - people that need those jobs. I think that has more of an impact than much of our denominational budget.

David, do you realize how bogus an argument that is? The aim of the GA is not to generate economic activity for a deserving Midwestern city.


One Heart, Many Hands makes a great impact on any city we bless with our business.

Great. I bet they don't need a big religious convention to justify their existence.


Seriously, this cynical belly aching is wearing on my nerves and the searching for a foul motive in every decision that is made is getting really old.

It's not about motives, it's about stewardship. If the GA delivered a missional return on investment, you can bet that the denomination would find a way to do GA every year.

[Hans Deventer]

As to the arguments, I have to agree with Billy, and there is more. We really don't need a GA deal with most of the decisions that are submitted to it. Most can be dealt with at a lower level, and do we really have to change some article of faith every 4 years? I like the idea of a confession of faith not being static and needing a fresh expression in each new age, but this frequent?
And as far as I can see, the rest of the resolutions can be dealt with by either the General Board, a national board or the districts themselves.

So my suggestion is to have amendments to the AoF automatically referred to a committee, to be appointed by the BoGS. They report to the General Board, and if the GB adopts the change, it would require 75% majority among all the districts. Change should remain possible, but not be easy.

When it comes to element of meeting, the M conferences and regional conferences seem fulfil that role quite well.

So although I love meeting people at a GA (and I really do!), I do not think that it is good stewardship to spend so much money on it. Nor do I see a need when it comes to the process of decision making. It may have worked in the early days of the church, but it's gotten out of hand.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

If 'we' is several thousand people in a denomination approaching 2 million, then plenty of 'us' have never been to a GA and never will. I'm blown away by this line of reasoning; "if we can't get together every four years to overeat and talk shop for 10 straight days, then why bother having a denomination." Really??

I can imagine what it would look like in 1 Kings - "Solomon offered a sacrifice of fellowship offerings to the LORD: twenty-two thousand cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the Israelites dedicated the temple of the LORD. But Billy Cox and members of the congregation said, 'all this is just an excuse for overeating and talking shop and a waste of good sheep and goats. It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.'" (note the smooth transition into Mark 14).

[Hans Deventer]

I can imagine what it would look like in 1 Kings - "Solomon offered a sacrifice of fellowship offerings to the LORD: twenty-two thousand cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the Israelites dedicated the temple of the LORD. But Billy Cox and members of the congregation said, 'all this is just an excuse for overeating and talking shop and a waste of good sheep and goats. It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.'" (note the smooth transition into Mark 14).

Mark 14:7 "The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me."

Don't want to be obnoxious, Scott. But we've had resolutions calling for less frequent GA's for several GA's now, and their motivation was mainly financial. In the current crisis, I would be surprised if 2013 won't see at least some change. And to be honest, I hope (and will vote) for more than "some" change.

[Rich Schmidt]

I can imagine what it would look like in 1 Kings - "Solomon offered a sacrifice of fellowship offerings to the LORD: twenty-two thousand cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the Israelites dedicated the temple of the LORD. But Billy Cox and members of the congregation said, 'all this is just an excuse for overeating and talking shop and a waste of good sheep and goats. It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.'" (note the smooth transition into Mark 14).

As I was reading, I thought you were going to pick up on Billy's comment about the vast majority of Nazarenes never getting to a General Assembly, compared to "all the Israelites" who were there for the temple's dedication.

Of course, now that I'm reading the rest of 1 Kings 8, I'm seeing that it almost certainly wasn't "all the Israelites" but more like all the elders and leaders of the tribes. So never mind. :)

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

As I was reading, I thought you were going to pick up on Billy's comment about the vast majority of Nazarenes never getting to a General Assembly, compared to "all the Israelites" who were there for the temple's dedication.

Of course, now that I'm reading the rest of 1 Kings 8, I'm seeing that it almost certainly wasn't "all the Israelites" but more like all the elders and leaders of the tribes. So never mind. :)

Mostly just pointing out that extravagance isn't always bad - and that some people will complain no matter what you do.

[Rich Schmidt]

Mostly just pointing out that extravagance isn't always bad - and that some people will complain no matter what you do.

You're correct on both counts. Mark 14, expensive perfume, etc. However, that (and the temple dedication) were kind of one-time deals. I wonder if Jesus might have reacted differently if people had been pouring out expensive perfume on him once a week... or once a month... or every four years...?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

You're correct on both counts. Mark 14, expensive perfume, etc. However, that (and the temple dedication) were kind of one-time deals. I wonder if Jesus might have reacted differently if people had been pouring out expensive perfume on him once a week... or once a month... or every four years...?

I was thinking that Israel had 7 big feasts a year?

[Hans Deventer]

I was thinking that Israel had 7 big feasts a year?

Yes. Would need to see the economics of that before we can compare, though. And these were by order of God, in order to celebrate His deeds in the past and His current blessings. With all due respect, what we have is not quite the same.

You've never heard me complain about the M-conferences. If people want to get together for celebration and encouragement and pay their own way, that's fine with me. I've been know to fly quite a bit to attend conferences.

Just don't let us come for business' sake at great expense for the church.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Yes. Would need to see the economics of that before we can compare, though. And these were by order of God, in order to celebrate His deeds in the past and His current blessings. With all due respect, what we have is not quite the same.


So...we aren't to celebrate the Lord's past deeds and current blessings unless he directly orders us to do so? Come to think of it, there are plenty of Psalms that do exactly that.

Listen, all I'm saying is that there's more going on at GA than the business. Also, no matter what you do, there will be people taking pot shots, finding things to complain about, thinking they know better. Sometimes that comes from an honest spirit of disagreement. Other times it comes from the same people who complain about anything the denomination does. I think there are even times that it comes from some who would be perfectly happy with it all if only someone put them in charge of it.

The people of God have a history of celebrating. The biggest component of GA is an element of celebration and fellowship.

It reminds me of a couple going out to celebrate their wedding anniversary. They could sit there all evening talking about how the cost of the meal could have been better spent on new shoes for Johnny or even how it could have been given to the poor. They could complain about the service, the quality of the food, or even the people at the next table. Or - they can spend the time enjoying one another's company and celebrating what God has done in their lives. Giving the money to the poor might sound real deep and spiritual - but so does celebrating one another.

Does that mean the frequency of GA can't be changed? Of course not. Does that mean I'm pretending that the Lord mandated it? Of course not. Does that mean I think it's perfect? No.

It does mean though, that those who only want to talk about the cost or about other, less that perfect aspects of it, are being killjoys who need to spend some time with the ancient Israelites at the dedication of the Temple or, in this case with a big gathering of God's people having a wonderful time celebrating all he is doing throughout our diverse denomination.

If nothing else, they need to stop trying to ruin it for those who, like David P in this thread, says it's fun and he looks forward it.

Me too.

[David Pettigrew]

Well, I find it hard to believe that you are "blown away". My point is simple - there are a lot bigger and probably way more efficient denominations and non-denominations. One of the reasons I choose to give my life to the Church of the Nazarene is the great sense of community. General Assembly enhances that in a way no other convention, conference, or campmeeting does - not even the "M" conferences which are North American specific. Are there ways to do GA more efficiently? Sure. Does it mean there's no value in it? I'm not sure how someone who admittedly has never attended one can judge that. By the way - I have lost weight at every GA I've attended. There's a whole lot of walking and little time for overeating.

I simply cannot reduce the Christian mission to some single-cell organism/multi-level marketing existence, in which your only purpose as a disciple is to reproduce yourself in the most efficient way possible, creating other self-replicating cells to increase the size of the Borg collective. I think I've mixed enough metaphors in this paragraph to make my point. I love being a follower of Jesus through the Church of the Nazarene, and I think we ought to be able to spend money on having a good time. I don't think I have to wait till I get to heaven to be happy.

The argument could easily be made that music has no kingdom value, and time spent in practice, lessons, degrees, and creative energy is a drain on resources. Most non-Christians really don't enjoy singing in groups at all, unless it's followed by "Play Ball!" I sure wouldn't want to be a part of a non-musical church, though.

As to how "bogus" my economic argument is - come on, Billy. You're smarter than that. Obviously pumping money into the local economy is not the goal of GA. But your gripe was the fact that money was spent. I was stating that I see this as somewhat of a benefit, rather than negative. I guess we could all just stop eating out year round and send all the money we save to starving kids. But most likely, you're going to be spending money on yourself in some fashion the last two weeks of June, 2013, whether it's in Indianapolis or KC. We could probably all stop taking vacations, too, until there are no lost in the world. But, instead of cruising to the Bahamas next summer, I'll probably give Indy those travel dollars.

So which is it? Is the General Assembly a 2-bit small potatoes convention being catered to by a third rate visitor's bureau, or a behemoth empire wasting millions of dollars to simply throw their weight around? These seem mutually exclusive to me, but you seem to be making both cases in this thread.

Hey, here's a thought. If you think General Assembly is stupid, don't come. Honesty, based on your years of naznet posts, I'm not sure why you bother with the Nazarene church at all.



If 'we' is several thousand people in a denomination approaching 2 million, then plenty of 'us' have never been to a GA and never will. I'm blown away by this line of reasoning; "if we can't get together every four years to overeat and talk shop for 10 straight days, then why bother having a denomination." Really??

But I have to congratulate you on being a regular part of the Nazarene version of the 1 percent.



David, do you realize how bogus an argument that is? The aim of the GA is not to generate economic activity for a deserving Midwestern city.



Great. I bet they don't need a big religious convention to justify their existence.



It's not about motives, it's about stewardship. If the GA delivered a missional return on investment, you can bet that the denomination would find a way to do GA every year.

[Hans Deventer]

So...we aren't to celebrate the Lord's past deeds and current blessings unless he directly orders us to do so? Come to think of it, there are plenty of Psalms that do exactly that.

Oh man.....

As I wrote:


You've never heard me complain about the M-conferences. If people want to get together for celebration and encouragement and pay their own way, that's fine with me. I've been know to fly quite a bit to attend conferences.

Just don't let us come for business' sake at great expense for the church.

And that is my point.

Of course there is more than the business. And of course, the delegates' main goal is business. We don't really think the districts elect people to the GA, and pay their way, in order to celebrate God's blessings, do we?

My only problem is that getting 1000 people together to do business simply doesn't work and costs way too much money anyway. So my view is we need to do business differently.

For those who want to celebrate, as far as I'm concerned, do it at every level you please: local, zone, district, region, nation, global, whatever. My goal is not to kill anybody's joy. I would suggest we celebrate not just in Southern gospel style though, if we want to be inclusive. But that is another discussion.

[Hans Deventer]

Hey, here's a thought. If you think General Assembly is stupid, don't come.

David, I'm coming because of the specific hope that this GA will decide on massive change. And that is what I want to be a part of. Otherwise, I would not have put myself up as candidate anymore.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I would suggest we celebrate not just in Southern gospel style though, if we want to be inclusive. But that is another discussion.

I was at the last Southern Gospel focus at a Nazarene GA - the Speer Family's last GA appearance - they left the road in 1992 due to illness. They had been featured at GA's for decades, but even that final concert was a "pre-service" one and not part of the main service. Since, there has been southern gospel sung in the exhibition hall concert area, but there hasn't been any southern gospel at all in the services.

Anyway, I actually do think that the primary purpose of the 1000 delegates is celebration and worship. In fact, if they only come to transact business I think they'll go home frustrated by all the celebration and worship and fellowship and other non-business focus of the tens of thousands of people who paid their own way to attend just for that purpose.

[David Morris]

I don't think this is true. A bigger city might not make us the only show in town like Indy does, which is nice - but $44m (the estimated economic impact the last time we were in Indy) is nothing any CVB would sneeze at - even in New York or Vegas.

$23 of that $44,000 000 was generated from people leaving tips at restaurants.

[David Pettigrew]

$23 of that $44,000 000 was generated from people leaving tips at restaurants.

And that was just Jerry Porter.

[Hans Deventer]

And that was just Jerry Porter.

Well, he's more generous than that. I'll PM you.

[Billy Cox]

Well, I find it hard to believe that you are "blown away". My point is simple - there are a lot bigger and probably way more efficient denominations and non-denominations. One of the reasons I choose to give my life to the Church of the Nazarene is the great sense of community. General Assembly enhances that in a way no other convention, conference, or campmeeting does - not even the "M" conferences which are North American specific. Are there ways to do GA more efficiently? Sure. Does it mean there's no value in it? I'm not sure how someone who admittedly has never attended one can judge that. By the way - I have lost weight at every GA I've attended. There's a whole lot of walking and little time for overeating.

I'll respond to each paragraph, hoping not to be argumentative, but to acknowledge what you're saying in a Proverbs 15:1 way.

I didn't say that GA has no value, just that I find the boasting about how big and important GA is to be nauseating - and that didn't come from you David, so you shouldn't feel compelled to defend it. And yes, I have attended a GA, and even in the 'company man' chapter of my life, I found some of the extravagance quite unsettling.

I acknowledge that there is a sense of community to be had...for those whose universe orbits the Church of the Nazarene; but I think that one doesn't have to be a cynic to point out that this community is a smaller, more rarefied slice of the church. The idea that we all get together every four years is less true with each new GA.


I simply cannot reduce the Christian mission to some single-cell organism/multi-level marketing existence, in which your only purpose as a disciple is to reproduce yourself in the most efficient way possible, creating other self-replicating cells to increase the size of the Borg collective. I think I've mixed enough metaphors in this paragraph to make my point. I love being a follower of Jesus through the Church of the Nazarene, and I think we ought to be able to spend money on having a good time. I don't think I have to wait till I get to heaven to be happy.

I give the denomination credit for trying to do GA on the cheap, but their success at doing so is quite mixed. As a result the missional return on investment is doubtful.



The argument could easily be made that music has no kingdom value, and time spent in practice, lessons, degrees, and creative energy is a drain on resources. Most non-Christians really don't enjoy singing in groups at all, unless it's followed by "Play Ball!" I sure wouldn't want to be a part of a non-musical church, though.

If there was no missional return on music, it would not be so universally practiced in churches. Despite that, some churches probably shouldn't do music because their lack of love has made music a point of division.


As to how "bogus" my economic argument is - come on, Billy. You're smarter than that. Obviously pumping money into the local economy is not the goal of GA. But your gripe was the fact that money was spent. I was stating that I see this as somewhat of a benefit, rather than negative. I guess we could all just stop eating out year round and send all the money we save to starving kids. But most likely, you're going to be spending money on yourself in some fashion the last two weeks of June, 2013, whether it's in Indianapolis or KC. We could probably all stop taking vacations, too, until there are no lost in the world. But, instead of cruising to the Bahamas next summer, I'll probably give Indy those travel dollars.

My gripe isn't the amount of money being spent as much as the pride that some take in it and the apparent lack of missional value realized in the process. When the denomination asks for my money, they implicitly ask me to trust them to spend it wisely. As far as I'm concerned that they have squandered that trust.

That doesn't mean that those who attend are wasting their time, just that whatever value they realize doesn't seem to trickle any farther than their household.



So which is it? Is the General Assembly a 2-bit small potatoes convention being catered to by a third rate visitor's bureau, or a behemoth empire wasting millions of dollars to simply throw their weight around? These seem mutually exclusive to me, but you seem to be making both cases in this thread.

Neither. The denomination is required by polity to host a General Assembly every four years and the people in charge try to do so without 'giving away the store', while others feel compelled to make it bigger than it really is. If that seems conflicted, it's because both forces are at work in the denomination.



Hey, here's a thought. If you think General Assembly is stupid, don't come.

It's not stupid, and I have considered attending, if only to meet some NazNet people and dispel some of the rumors about my red skin and pitchfork. I think that you know I'm not as scary as all that.



Honesty, based on your years of naznet posts, I'm not sure why you bother with the Nazarene church at all.

I've wondered that too, but there is something that makes it hard to quit the Nazarenes. :smilies0717:

[David Pettigrew]

So, Billy, your issue with GA is one of pride? I know the CotN has suffered somewhat from Napoleon Syndrome. We're so small compared to the _______________ (fill in the blank with whatever group is prominent in your area), but we're the biggest of the Wesleyan Holiness denominations. This makes us the biggest church in a branch of faith few outside of us are even aware exists.

SO, I have seen the CotN try to overcompensate in other ways. Perhaps GA is one of those.

I personally do not take any pride in GA being large. I just think there is nothing in the world that can compare with receiving the Lord's Supper with 20,000 other Nazarenes.

My earlier posts were written in frustration, and I do apologize for the tone. Yes, I have met you personally and can testify that you are a nice guy. If you drive through this area again, I'll try to visit for more than five minutes.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

It's not stupid, and I have considered attending, if only to meet some NazNet people and dispel some of the rumors about my red skin and pitchfork. I think that you know I'm not as scary as all that.

I just want to post to say I've never thought of you as a red neck farmer, so you are safe with me.

[Hans Deventer]

I just want to post to say I've never thought of you as a red neck farmer, so you are safe with me.

I guess Billy forgot to mention the horns and the tail :biggrin:

[Billy Cox]

I guess Billy forgot to mention the horns and the tail :biggrin:

That one didn't survive the first draft. :)

[Billy Cox]

So, Billy, your issue with GA is one of pride? I know the CotN has suffered somewhat from Napoleon Syndrome. We're so small compared to the _______________ (fill in the blank with whatever group is prominent in your area), but we're the biggest of the Wesleyan Holiness denominations. This makes us the biggest church in a branch of faith few outside of us are even aware exists.

SO, I have seen the CotN try to overcompensate in other ways. Perhaps GA is one of those.

I personally do not take any pride in GA being large. I just think there is nothing in the world that can compare with receiving the Lord's Supper with 20,000 other Nazarenes.

My earlier posts were written in frustration, and I do apologize for the tone. Yes, I have met you personally and can testify that you are a nice guy. If you drive through this area again, I'll try to visit for more than five minutes.

It gets my attenion whenever I manage to anger someone in my 'friend' column. It means that I have taken a concern one bridge too far, and I apologize for doing so.

[Hans Deventer]

I guess the problem is where we'd want to attach a price tag to something people feel cannot be tagged that way. Now there IS a price tag, that fact is beyond denial. And that's the very problem. It could be calculated to the last US dollar what the costs of a GA are.
The problem is in the benefit. How do we calculate that? And when would our expenses be in balance with said value? These, it seems to me, are our fundamental questions.

I want to thank the participants in this thread. It has, at least to me, been helpful.

[Ryan Scott]

There are a lot of conflicting interests - Billy had brought them out well.

Currently, I believe, the Nazarene General Assembly is the largest religious convention in the US. Does it have to be that way? Absolutely not - it just happens to be that right now. It would most likely have to look different to be somewhere outside the US.

I don't see any immediate indication things are going to change - perhaps next summer will give us a good discussion as to its purpose.

I appreciate the effort to make it a family gathering - and we're just going to have to work through the issues that come with an ever increasing and globally diverse family.

[Alisa Stoll]

Read what Billy is saying as they want us to be there and give us good rates as a result. It is always wise to be smart with God's money.

Alisa

[John Kennedy]

$23 of that $44,000 000 was generated from people leaving tips at restaurants.

What was it a Kansas City bellhop was alleged to have said sometime back in the 50's: The Nazarenes came to KC with a $10 bill in one hand and a copy of the Ten Commandments in the other and never broke either one." (This joke hasn't been adjusted for inflation)

[Dan Henderson]

What was it a Kansas City bellhop was alleged to have said sometime back in the 50's: The Nazarenes came to KC with a $10 bill in one hand and a copy of the Ten Commandments in the other and never broke either one." (This joke hasn't been adjusted for inflation)

I'm wondering if its actually a joke. Bwahhahaha.

[Michael Flowers]

If you want to reduce the cost, then just reduce the number of delegates to say, 1 per district. Also, the Illinois district has moved to having a combined NMI/SDMI/NYI convention, is there some reason why it would be impossible to do this at the General level? Also, maybe if we cut out the extras. When I went in 2001 and 2005 (Teen Bible Quizzing, though elected as an NYI delegate in '05) there were a bunch of extra activities going on for the youth and I wonder how much those things added to the cost of the event (I would estimate that the late night activities alone probably added between 50k-100k).

As to the next GA, if it is in the US then I really feel that Indianapolis is the best local because it is centrally located and does have a strong volunteer group. No destination is perfect, but Indy has been a very good one. As far as outside the US, Seoul sounds really interesting to me (though I wouldn't be going unless I was a delegate, no way to afford that trip).

[David Morris]

If you want to reduce the cost, then just reduce the number of delegates to say, 1 per district. Also, the Illinois district has moved to having a combined NMI/SDMI/NYI convention, is there some reason why it would be impossible to do this at the General level? Also, maybe if we cut out the extras. When I went in 2001 and 2005 (Teen Bible Quizzing, though elected as an NYI delegate in '05) there were a bunch of extra activities going on for the youth and I wonder how much those things added to the cost of the event (I would estimate that the late night activities alone probably added between 50k-100k).

As to the next GA, if it is in the US then I really feel that Indianapolis is the best local because it is centrally located and does have a strong volunteer group. No destination is perfect, but Indy has been a very good one. As far as outside the US, Seoul sounds really interesting to me (though I wouldn't be going unless I was a delegate, no way to afford that trip).

All of those activities were cut out of the programming for 2009 in Orlando. The Global NYI Council (I believe it was them) decided that if they weren't able to produce the activities at the other world locations where NYI delegates were voting from, then they wouldn't do them at the US site. They are striving hard for everyone to have the same experience.

[Mike Schutz]

All of those activities were cut out of the programming for 2009 in Orlando. The Global NYI Council (I believe it was them) decided that if they weren't able to produce the activities at the other world locations where NYI delegates were voting from, then they wouldn't do them at the US site. They are striving hard for everyone to have the same experience.

And of course - planning activities for teens in Orlando would be - well, I guess redundant would be a good word..

[Tyler McCarthy]

Personally, I'd like to see GA return home, to KANSAS CITY! :smilies0275:

NYI's vote by proxy at the 8 different global Nazarene-Cities is a great way to get more international participation. So that with customs and travel it may be cheaper for a delegate to go to Johannesburg, instead of Indianapolis from Nairobi. Indy is nice, and the largest concentration of Nazarenes are in IL, IN, and OH.

Many travel studies show that there is a lull in travel to a city after they have hosted the Olympics. So the GA-Committee could work on deals to get venues for cheaper to encourage a convention to host in that city. And seeing as we are in the off year of the Olympics that is enough turn around time. So in 2017 we would be in Rio De Janeiro. Have thought about when dates would be if ever hosted in the Southern Hemisphere?

I always imagined GA as the Summer Olympics and NYC as the Winter Olympics.

[Craig Laughlin]

Personally, I'd like to see GA return home, to KANSAS CITY! :smilies0275:

NYI's vote by proxy at the 8 different global Nazarene-Cities is a great way to get more international participation. So that with customs and travel it may be cheaper for a delegate to go to Johannesburg, instead of Indianapolis from Nairobi. Indy is nice, and the largest concentration of Nazarenes are in IL, IN, and OH.

Many travel studies show that there is a lull in travel to a city after they have hosted the Olympics. So the GA-Committee could work on deals to get venues for cheaper to encourage a convention to host in that city. And seeing as we are in the off year of the Olympics that is enough turn around time. So in 2017 we would be in Rio De Janeiro. Have thought about when dates would be if ever hosted in the Southern Hemisphere?

I always imagined GA as the Summer Olympics and NYC as the Winter Olympics.

I agree. The argument against it has always been that they do not have enough space for the Sunday morning service but they are going to two services so that would work for Kansas City.

[David Pettigrew]

My understanding from a good source is they reversed the decision on the two services, but perhaps I misunderstood.

[Craig Laughlin]

My understanding from a good source is they reversed the decision on the two services, but perhaps I misunderstood.

I hadn't heard that. I thought they didn't have room for one service? I'm not really in the loop anyway.

[David Pettigrew]

I could easily be wrong but that is what I was told by someone involved with the volunteer base in Indy.

[Craig Laughlin]

I could easily be wrong but that is what I was told by someone involved with the volunteer base in Indy.

I don't doubt you are right. I'm just behind the news cycle. - Not a bad thing. Personally, I think multiple services is much better stewardship because it would open up a bunch of other cities for GA including Kansas City. We are probably paying a lot for our emotional attachment to a single service.

[Ryan Scott]

In Orlando they had two meeting spaces - the worship service/NMI convention and then the NYI/GA convention space. Really, you don't need both so long as there was some place for the musicians to practice.

I don't see how the current style of GA will last for much longer. It doesn't make sense to make GA a vacation destination when it prices out an increasingly large number of members.

I think KC could work fine - they could have a pretty good sized exhibit space, plus a 12,000 seat meeting area. I know they had 20,000 for Sunday morning in Orlando, but I don't think the same would happen in KC.

[Billy Cox]

In Orlando they had two meeting spaces - the worship service/NMI convention and then the NYI/GA convention space. Really, you don't need both so long as there was some place for the musicians to practice.

I don't see how the current style of GA will last for much longer. It doesn't make sense to make GA a vacation destination when it prices out an increasingly large number of members.

I think KC could work fine - they could have a pretty good sized exhibit space, plus a 12,000 seat meeting area. I know they had 20,000 for Sunday morning in Orlando, but I don't think the same would happen in KC.

C'mon. That would be like the Israelites in 1 Kings skpping the Temple Dedication because they couldn't arrange childcare. Some things are worth sacrificing for. :rolleyes:

[Roy Richardson]

When I was on the Eastern Michigan District, I tried to get our DS to campaign for Detroit as a site. Great airport, lots of meeting space, hotels are a bit of an issue but they are relatively close. Plus, Detroit is close to Canada and a 4 hour drive from Toronto.

Maybe someday :(

[Ryan Scott]

$23 of that $44,000 000 was generated from people leaving tips at restaurants.

Which is also why we'll never be welcome in San Antonio ever again.

I still have a tip calculator card they gave out at registration from that GA - never been used.

[David Pettigrew]

Which is also why we'll never be welcome in San Antonio ever again.


Please explain

[Greg Gates]

1. Hong Kong
2. Rio de Janeiro
3. Toronto

[Roy Richardson]

1. Hong Kong
2. Rio de Janeiro
3. Toronto

Of the 3, Toronto is most likely given the gravitational pull of the North American crowd and the average age of a GA attendee.

[Ryan Scott]

Please explain

San Antonio was a mutual dislike. We don't drink and tip poorly, which didn't go over well with the restaurants and hotels. Lots of convention goers objected to the long, hot walks across the highway to the dome for services.

Don't count on SA happening again in the lifetime of anyone who was involved the first time around.

[Hans Deventer]

San Antonio was a mutual dislike. We don't drink and tip poorly, which didn't go over well with the restaurants and hotels. Lots of convention goers objected to the long, hot walks across the highway to the dome for services.

Don't count on SA happening again in the lifetime of anyone who was involved the first time around.

I loved San Antonio.

[Ryan Scott]

I loved San Antonio.

Me, too - but sadly, I don't think either of us will be in charge of planning a GA in the future.

[Hans Deventer]

Me, too - but sadly, I don't think either of us will be in charge of planning a GA in the future.

Well, myself I don't even expect to visit any GA after this year's, so yeah, your prediction might certainly come true.

[Tyler McCarthy]

We need to find a Indianapolis sized international city. What is the Indianapolis of Australia or Canada? We really don't need a mega city, Manchester would be more ideal then London. Like Montreal over Toronto.

[Hans Deventer]

We need to find a Indianapolis sized international city. What is the Indianapolis of Australia or Canada? We really don't need a mega city, Manchester would be more ideal then London. Like Montreal over Toronto.

What we do need is a good airport. Indianapolis, despite its name, is NOT an international airport just because they have flights to Toronto and Cancun, Mexico. I'm sorry, that's pathetic. In Australia, Brisbane would be a good idea. That's a serious airport.

In Europe, Amsterdam has almost the same number of inhabitants, but the airport is the 15th largest airport in the world with 313 direct destinations. Only from within the USA, there are (from the top of my head) at least 15 airports with a direct flight to Amsterdam.

[Bob Hunter]

Well, what we do need is a good airport. Indianapolis, despite its name, is NOT an international airport just because they have flights to Toronto and Cancun, Mexico. I'm sorry, that's pathetic. In Australia, Brisbane would be a good idea. That's a serious airport.

In Europe, Amsterdam has almost the same number of inhabitants, but the airport is the 15th largest airport in the world with 313 direct destinations. Only from within the USA, there are (from the top of my head) at least 15 airports with a direct flight to Amsterdam.

Seattle, WA seems very logical for International Travel or Atlanta. The problem is getting a convention hall reasonably.

[Michael Flowers]

We need to find a Indianapolis sized international city. What is the Indianapolis of Australia or Canada? We really don't need a mega city, Manchester would be more ideal then London. Like Montreal over Toronto.

The problem with a city like Montreal is that we have (or at least had) very few Nazarenes living there. We really need to have the GA in a location that has the people on the ground to help facilitate it (there are places around the world that would fit the bill).

[Michael Flowers]

What we do need is a good airport. Indianapolis, despite its name, is NOT an international airport just because they have flights to Toronto and Cancun, Mexico. I'm sorry, that's pathetic. In Australia, Brisbane would be a good idea. That's a serious airport.

In Europe, Amsterdam has almost the same number of inhabitants, but the airport is the 15th largest airport in the world with 313 direct destinations. Only from within the USA, there are (from the top of my head) at least 15 airports with a direct flight to Amsterdam.

What facilities exist as far as convention space and hotels? Would there be plenty of space within walking distance of the convention space? (to me those should be the primary thoughts when selecting a city, aside from the availability of an indigenous support staff)

[Rich Schmidt]

In Europe, Amsterdam has almost the same number of inhabitants, but the airport is the 15th largest airport in the world with 313 direct destinations. Only from within the USA, there are (from the top of my head) at least 15 airports with a direct flight to Amsterdam.

GA in Amsterdam would be awesome. :)

[Hans Deventer]

What facilities exist as far as convention space and hotels? Would there be plenty of space within walking distance of the convention space? (to me those should be the primary thoughts when selecting a city, aside from the availability of an indigenous support staff)

Michael, check "Rai Amsterdam" and "Hotels near Rai Amsterdam". The Rai is a large convention centre, situated next to a railway station with a direct line to both the airport and the Amsterdam city centre. With regular prices for transportation, not the ridicules prices most airport - city centre rail systems ask.

The problem regarding Amsterdam is twofold:

1. Still the greatest number of delegates are Americans. So in grand total, it is cheapest to have the GA in North America.

2. We're only a small district, so there aren't enough Nazarenes to help out as volunteers.

[Ryan Scott]

Seattle, WA seems very logical for International Travel or Atlanta. The problem is getting a convention hall reasonably.

That's not a huge concern. Convention space comes cheaply if you're booking enough hotel rooms. I'm not sure the specifics of how Indy works with the CVB, but I've never paid for conference space in a hotel (at least for general conference space, sometimes for breakout rooms). I doubt we get the Indy Convention Center for free, but I'm sure it's a very reduced rate given the vast number of hotel rooms we occupy.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

That's not a huge concern. Convention space comes cheaply if you're booking enough hotel rooms. I'm not sure the specifics of how Indy works with the CVB, but I've never paid for conference space in a hotel (at least for general conference space, sometimes for breakout rooms). I doubt we get the Indy Convention Center for free, but I'm sure it's a very reduced rate given the vast number of hotel rooms we occupy.

According to the statements released just now by our General Secretary, the Indy Convention Center isn't only cheaper because of the hotels, but it is indeed "free". (If we block enough rooms.)
http://www.ncnnews.com/nphweb/html/ncn/article.jsp?id=10012178

...and it should be considering the room rates we're at this year.

[David Pettigrew]

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that as long as General Assembly exists under its current structure, it will not take place outside of North America in the next 20 years at least. Global NYI Convention is already a multi site convention, but whether or not it and its sister auxiliary organizations exist in the future as separate entities is a topic for another thread.

[Michael Flowers]

According to the statements released just now by our General Secretary, the Indy Convention Center isn't only cheaper because of the hotels, but it is indeed "free". (If we block enough rooms.)
http://www.ncnnews.com/nphweb/html/ncn/article.jsp?id=10012178

...and it should be considering the room rates we're at this year.

Doesn't look like the hotels cost any more than they did back in 2005 (the hotel my mom stayed in cost $155 per night that year). Thanks for posting the link.

[Michael Flowers]

I was just curious and so I looked up the cost of a flight from Chicago to Amsterdam. You can get such a flight for the same dates as GA this year for about $1200-1400 (and up from there) via expedia.com. With that knowledge it seems to me that travel costs wouldn't be too different than what a number of people (who don't drive) already face.

[Hans Deventer]

I was just curious and so I looked up the cost of a flight from Chicago to Amsterdam. You can get such a flight for the same dates as GA this year for about $1200-1400 (and up from there) via expedia.com. With that knowledge it seems to me that travel costs wouldn't be too different than what a number of people (who don't drive) already face.

And the price is so high because of the time of year. Edwin flew to San Diego and back for less than $ 800 in December

[Michael Flowers]

And the price is so high because of the time of year. Edwin flew to San Diego and back for less than $ 800 in December

General Assembly for Christmas anyone? :)

[Hans Deventer]

General Assembly for Christmas anyone? :)

I would not propose Christmas myself. But an off season time would save a lot of people a lot of money.

[Rich Schmidt]

I would not propose Christmas myself. But an off season time would save a lot of people a lot of money.

Here in the USA, school schedules would probably make a non-summer meeting time exceedingly difficult. I don't know what school schedules are like in other countries.

There's a reason "off season" times are "off season." :)

[John Reilly]

London, England. We can meet at the Wesley Chapel and stay at Wesley's home.

[David Morris]

Here in the USA, school schedules would probably make a non-summer meeting time exceedingly difficult. I don't know what school schedules are like in other countries.

There's a reason "off season" times are "off season." :)

Given the sacrifices that other non-American delegates have to make, I think it'd be more than fair to do GA outside of the summer months. It's also entirely dependent on whether or not we truly believe in the purpose of GA.

[Rich Schmidt]

Given the sacrifices that other non-American delegates have to make, I think it'd be more than fair to do GA outside of the summer months. It's also entirely dependent on whether or not we truly believe in the purpose of GA.

I'm all for prioritizing our non-North-American delegates. I think we should do that as a matter of principle. Like I said, I don't know school/work/holiday schedules for the rest of the world. But if it's "off season" for them, too, that means it's tougher for people to travel at that time, by definition.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm all for prioritizing our non-North-American delegates. I think we should do that as a matter of principle. Like I said, I don't know school/work/holiday schedules for the rest of the world. But if it's "off season" for them, too, that means it's tougher for people to travel at that time, by definition.

Why would that be? It's generally easier to take a week off from work outside of the school vacation, when everybody wants to go.

[Michael Flowers]

Why would that be? It's generally easier to take a week off from work outside of the school vacation, when everybody wants to go.

It would be virtually impossible to have any of the conventions that involve youth/college age delegates if they are in classes, without cutting out those delegate positions or proceeding without many of them. Clergy and laity who work for schools would also find it difficult to get away (a pastor's wife on my district who works at a public school had to leave the clergy retreat earlier because she couldn't get more than two days off while school is in session). Those are a few of the difficulties that I think Rich was hinting at. But as he said, we don't know the schedule of such things in other parts of the world.

[Rich Schmidt]

Why would that be? It's generally easier to take a week off from work outside of the school vacation, when everybody wants to go.

I think you answered your own question. The off season, by definition, is when fewer people travel. I'm assuming that it's not simply by choice but by necessity. Most people simply aren't able to travel during the off season... or they would, since it's cheaper!


It would be virtually impossible to have any of the conventions that involve youth/college age delegates if they are in classes, without cutting out those delegate positions or proceeding without many of them. Clergy and laity who work for schools would also find it difficult to get away (a pastor's wife on my district who works at a public school had to leave the clergy retreat earlier because she couldn't get more than two days off while school is in session). Those are a few of the difficulties that I think Rich was hinting at. But as he said, we don't know the schedule of such things in other parts of the world.

Honestly, I hadn't thought of youth delegates. I was just thinking in general terms, that people seem to be less able to travel during the "off times," by definition. But if we're listing the difficulties that would be raised by off season scheduling, you could add those who travel with their families, including school-age kids. And, when thinking of those whose work and vacation availability is affected by school seasons, don't forget to include professors, bus drivers, food service workers, janitors, coaches, security, etc, etc, etc.

[Ryan Scott]

Why would that be? It's generally easier to take a week off from work outside of the school vacation, when everybody wants to go.

Hans, you're forgetting that lots of people in the US don't get any paid vacation time (or very little). My wife has 7-10 days in any given year - and they have to cover any sick time or dr appointments she takes.

[Michael Flowers]

I think you answered your own question. The off season, by definition, is when fewer people travel. I'm assuming that it's not simply by choice but by necessity. Most people simply aren't able to travel during the off season... or they would, since it's cheaper!



Honestly, I hadn't thought of youth delegates. I was just thinking in general terms, that people seem to be less able to travel during the "off times," by definition. But if we're listing the difficulties that would be raised by off season scheduling, you could add those who travel with their families, including school-age kids. And, when thinking of those whose work and vacation availability is affected by school seasons, don't forget to include professors, bus drivers, food service workers, janitors, coaches, security, etc, etc, etc.

I was thinking of them all, I just didn't see the need to list them all specifically so I left it at the general "working for schools".

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, you're forgetting that lots of people in the US don't get any paid vacation time (or very little). My wife has 7-10 days in any given year - and they have to cover any sick time or dr appointments she takes.

Ah, but people in education will also have a problem here. I doubt they even get those 7-10 days. You're simply not allowed to take a day off at all, beyond the regular school holidays. Sickness is something else.

But it doesn't matter, the GA is always during school days here, so apparently that's not an issue.

[Rich Schmidt]

Ah, but people in education will also have a problem here. I doubt they even get those 7-10 days. You're simply not allowed to take a day off at all, beyond the regular school holidays. Sickness is something else.

But it doesn't matter, the GA is always during school days here, so apparently that's not an issue.

When my wife was teaching, she had a certain number of vacation/personal days plus a certain number of sick days. The number varies from one school district or state to the next. (I forget at what level these things are decided.)

I'm sorry to hear that GA is always during school days where you are. I imagine that makes it more difficult for your delegates to go? Or limits the folks who are available to serve as delegates? Or maybe not. As I mentioned earlier, I don't know what school times are in other parts of the world.

Is "the off season" there connected in any way to when kids are in school?

[Hans Deventer]

Rich, we just don't elect people who work in education. That's the way it is. We don't know any better.
That's why I thought it could just as well be in January, for in stance. But I now understand that school vacations start earlier in the USA.

And yes, off season is outside school vacations.

[Billy Cox]

Given the sacrifices that other non-American delegates have to make, I think it'd be more than fair to do GA outside of the summer months. It's also entirely dependent on whether or not we truly believe in the purpose of GA.

What county outside of the USA has the most Nazarenes?

[Marsha Lynn]

What county outside of the USA has the most Nazarenes?

Don't you want the highest concentration close to a convention center rather than total count in a particular country? Of course, it could likely be a much smaller convention center if it were beyond easy reach of Americans.

Korea? Brazil? Columbia? South Africa?

[Jeremy Bixler]

Given the sacrifices that other non-American delegates have to make, I think it'd be more than fair to do GA outside of the summer months. It's also entirely dependent on whether or not we truly believe in the purpose of GA.

If we can't even get people to pony up an extra couple hundred dollars to stay in the hotel block (thus helping the church avoid attrition), then what makes you think people will pay thousands extra to attend a GA outside of the United States?

There's a reason it stays in the Midwest. Anywhere else will incur GIGANTIC deficits.

**EDIT: I need to fully read before I post! :P I misunderstood what you were saying, many apologies! Keeping my original statement, though, for those who think GA needs to move outside the USA.

[Gina Stevenson]

According to the statements released just now by our General Secretary, the Indy Convention Center isn't only cheaper because of the hotels, but it is indeed "free". (If we block enough rooms.)
http://www.ncnnews.com/nphweb/html/ncn/article.jsp?id=10012178

...and it should be considering the room rates we're at this year.


Doesn't look like the hotels cost any more than they did back in 2005 (the hotel my mom stayed in cost $155 per night that year). Thanks for posting the link.

No kidding re those rates! Would think that Orlando would be more "touristy," therefore higher, but it looks like Indy was even more in 2005 than Orlando was in 2009. Only thing I know of in Indy is the race ... at which I fell asleep years ago, it was soooo exciting . . . . :smilies0275:

[David Pettigrew]

What county outside of the USA has the most Nazarenes?

It seems to me it's Haiti, but that may have been passed by the Horn of Africa. One of those will pass the USA soon.

[Bud Pugh]

It seems to me it's Haiti, but that may have been passed by the Horn of Africa. One of those will pass the USA soon.

Haiti is my recollection as well but I didn't take the time to verify.

[David Morris]

If we can't even get people to pony up an extra couple hundred dollars to stay in the hotel block (thus helping the church avoid attrition), then what makes you think people will pay thousands extra to attend a GA outside of the United States?

There's a reason it stays in the Midwest. Anywhere else will incur GIGANTIC deficits.

**EDIT: I need to fully read before I post! :P I misunderstood what you were saying, many apologies! Keeping my original statement, though, for those who think GA needs to move outside the USA.

The Manual states that "The General Assembly is the “supreme doctrine-formulating, lawmaking, and elective authority of the Church of the Nazarene” (paragraph 300). It isn't listed as the "supreme" time of fellowship (although that is definitely a bonus when Nazarenes get together. If we truly believed that GA was the “supreme doctrine-formulating, lawmaking, and elective authority of the Church of the Nazarene," then why hold it in a place where a majority of Nazarenes could never attend? I'm not even sure where that place would be or if it exists, but GA as we have it now is strictly for North American delegates and very few outsiders.

I know you've worked at HQ, and therefore have some insider information about the logistics of GA that many will never have. However, we need to be willing to make sacrifices on our end. General Assembly is about so much more than attempting to fill a hotel block.

[Jeremy Bixler]

The Manual states that "The General Assembly is the “supreme doctrine-formulating, lawmaking, and elective authority of the Church of the Nazarene” (paragraph 300). It isn't listed as the "supreme" time of fellowship (although that is definitely a bonus when Nazarenes get together. If we truly believed that GA was the “supreme doctrine-formulating, lawmaking, and elective authority of the Church of the Nazarene," then why hold it in a place where a majority of Nazarenes could never attend? I'm not even sure where that place would be or if it exists, but GA as we have it now is strictly for North American delegates and very few outsiders.

I know you've worked at HQ, and therefore have some insider information about the logistics of GA that many will never have. However, we need to be willing to make sacrifices on our end. General Assembly is about so much more than attempting to fill a hotel block.

Whoa whoa whoa brother, I'm afraid you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that General Assembly is about attempting to fill a hotel block. I understand what it is tasked with doing. In fact, we agree! What I was saying is that there is no way GA can move outside of the country (or even outside the midwest) and fulfill what it is tasked with doing. The only way to do it and not face MASSIVE deficits (far worse than the deficits it has already faced) is if we abandon the face-to-face model of church business.

Let me more clearly state my opinion: If General Assembly is to fulfill its role in our polity in the midst of the changing face of the church, it must shift from an face-to-face quadrennial family reunion to a teleconferenced global meeting with equal representation. It is financially impossible to continue the face-to-face model and broaden its representation.

[David Morris]

Whoa whoa whoa brother, I'm afraid you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that General Assembly is about attempting to fill a hotel block. I understand what it is tasked with doing. In fact, we agree! What I was saying is that there is no way GA can move outside of the country (or even outside the midwest) and fulfill what it is tasked with doing. The only way to do it and not face MASSIVE deficits (far worse than the deficits it has already faced) is if we abandon the face-to-face model of church business.

Let me more clearly state my opinion: If General Assembly is to fulfill its role in our polity in the midst of the changing face of the church, it must shift from an face-to-face quadrennial family reunion to a teleconferenced global meeting with equal representation. It is financially impossible to continue the face-to-face model and broaden its representation.

I'm saying that I do believe the resources exist...and that would come through some very real sacrificial giving. And we could continue with a face-to-face model, but it would be many different faces (and maybe less faces) seeing one another if we were willing to break out of our current trend.

[Ryan Scott]

but GA as we have it now is strictly for North American delegates and very few outsiders.

This is getting less true every time. The numbers still don't match up specifically - the US was something like 35% of elected delegates, but more like 45% of voting delegates the last time. It was the first time the latter number has been below 50%, but the second time the first number was below 50%.

It's been no secret that the BGS values GA for it's ability to bring Nazarenes together for more than just business, which is why it's always in the midst of heaving Nazarene areas in the US - the highest chance of the most people coming. It's not going to be able to be that way forever.

[David Morris]

This is getting less true every time. The numbers still don't match up specifically - the US was something like 35% of elected delegates, but more like 45% of voting delegates the last time. It was the first time the latter number has been below 50%, but the second time the first number was below 50%.

It's been no secret that the BGS values GA for it's ability to bring Nazarenes together for more than just business, which is why it's always in the midst of heaving Nazarene areas in the US - the highest chance of the most people coming. It's not going to be able to be that way forever.

I should have stated that it was for North American attendees, not delegates. I've attended three GA's, and been a delegate to one, and I've never gotten the feeling that our "supreme" event was representative of our global denomination.

[Marsha Lynn]

I should have stated that it was for North American attendees, not delegates. I've attended three GA's, and been a delegate to one, and I've never gotten the feeling that our "supreme" event was representative of our global denomination.

Is the solution, then, to limit attendance to delegates in order to prevent "tourists" from diluting the international nature of the event?

Signed,
A tourist

[David Morris]

Is the solution, then, to limit attendance to delegates in order to prevent "tourists" from diluting the international nature of the event?

Signed,
A tourist

Not at all. I love being a tourist, and I love being able to fellowship with so many. But GA isn't our "supreme" fellowship time. It's the "doctrine-formulating, lawmaking, and elective authority of the Church of the Nazarene." Fellowship is a by product. 1,498,022 (70%) of our 2,150,883 members live outside of the USA/Canada*. According to the statistics Ryan provided, we are close to half the voting bloc.

I feel as if I'm being misunderstood, which is understandable. I'm all for the fellowship. I'm also all for solid representation of our global denomination.

I hope I'm not coming across as a major critic of GA...I'll be there all week in June!

*(Statistics provided from the annual statistics, available here (http://nazarene.org/files/docs/StatisticsAnnual.pdf).)

[Hans Deventer]

I should have stated that it was for North American attendees, not delegates. I've attended three GA's, and been a delegate to one, and I've never gotten the feeling that our "supreme" event was representative of our global denomination.

No, but it is probably a fair representation of where the money is.

[Ryan Scott]

I should have stated that it was for North American attendees, not delegates. I've attended three GA's, and been a delegate to one, and I've never gotten the feeling that our "supreme" event was representative of our global denomination.

Yeah, I've always said getting the most delegates to the event should be priority #1. If it were, we would have it in Toronto every time. Canada will give almost anyone a Visa (they figure if you're crazy enough to stay, you probably belong - and I mean that in a good way) and its close enough to the population base to provide easy enough access for HQ personnel. Local volunteers could be a bit of a problem, but I don't think it would be huge. There are Nazarenes in Toronto and Michigan isn't too far away if you need some backup.

The priority has been on visitors, making it a family reunion type events. I agree with you that we're really not making it feasible for the whole family to show up and I feel bad about that.

To me, Toronto is the best option weighing all the factors. I just don't think we're going to see that. We'll see Brazil before Canada, I suspect.

[Michael Flowers]

I should have stated that it was for North American attendees, not delegates. I've attended three GA's, and been a delegate to one, and I've never gotten the feeling that our "supreme" event was representative of our global denomination.

I think though that if we move GA out of the US you will see it move much more toward the business side of things rather than the social. Why? Because you will not have nearly as many people who are able from a financial standpoint to go. It would be interesting to see what the financial condition of most Nazarene's in other world areas is compared to the financial conditions of those in the US. I doubt that there are really that many outside of the US who could afford to make the trek on their own, regardless of where it is. Also, you have to remember that it is the General Conventions that tend to attract the crowds, the Assembly portion comes after that (at least that has been my experience). I feel like the conventions really are as much a fellowship time as anything, whereas the assembly is the business side of the few days (probably also why it takes place at the end, after everything else has concluded).

[Michael Gentry]

Probably doesn't matter where it is, same on the ballots quite often in the US and go over and over anyway. I've been to almost every General Convention since 1968, but never had the privilege to even be on a ballot for any of the general conventions or the general assembly. Oh well, I'll just stick to being on a district board now and then.

[Tyler McCarthy]

Anyone hear rumors of moving to a 5 or 6 year interval between General Assemblies?

[Bud Pugh]

Anyone hear rumors of moving to a 5 or 6 year interval between General Assemblies?
There will be resolutions for both alternatives.

[Mike Schutz]

Anyone hear rumors of moving to a 5 or 6 year interval between General Assemblies?

Since Tyler raised it, I'll ask something that I've wondered for several years. What are the arguments against an increase in the interval?

[Dave McClung]

Since Tyler raised it, I'll ask something that I've wondered for several years. What are the arguments against an increase in the interval?

1. Change takes place too rapidly for an organization that can change only at a General Assembly.
2. Too many things change during a five or six year period.
3. The fellowship aspects are too important to increase the interval.
4. Some of us are getting old. We might not be able to attend in five or six years.

[Dave McClung]

Yeah, I've always said getting the most delegates to the event should be priority #1. If it were, we would have it in Toronto every time. Canada will give almost anyone a Visa (they figure if you're crazy enough to stay, you probably belong - and I mean that in a good way) and its close enough to the population base to provide easy enough access for HQ personnel. Local volunteers could be a bit of a problem, but I don't think it would be huge. There are Nazarenes in Toronto and Michigan isn't too far away if you need some backup.

The priority has been on visitors, making it a family reunion type events. I agree with you that we're really not making it feasible for the whole family to show up and I feel bad about that.

To me, Toronto is the best option weighing all the factors. I just don't think we're going to see that. We'll see Brazil before Canada, I suspect.

When I was on the General Assembly Commission many years ago, we considered Toronto. At that time, it would have been too expensive. A lot of the work to put on a General Assembly is done by volunteers. If you take the Assembly to a place where there are not many volunteers, people have to be hired to do that work. It increases the cost dramatically.

As a practical matter, the General Assembly has to be in a place where there is a concentration of Nazarenes.

[Hans Deventer]

Anyone hear rumors of moving to a 5 or 6 year interval between General Assemblies?

I don't recall a GA without them.

[Billy Cox]

If we can't even get people to pony up an extra couple hundred dollars to stay in the hotel block (thus helping the church avoid attrition), then what makes you think people will pay thousands extra to attend a GA outside of the United States?

There's a reason it stays in the Midwest. Anywhere else will incur GIGANTIC deficits.

**EDIT: I need to fully read before I post! :P I misunderstood what you were saying, many apologies! Keeping my original statement, though, for those who think GA needs to move outside the USA.

It's also true that a so-called international GA would have virtually no benefit for international delegates, except for those in the host country.

Most of the utilitarian appeal of an international GA is fueled by flawed logic. There are indeed more Nazarenes outside of the USA, but America still has far more Nazarenes than any other country. I wager that the state of Ohio has more Nazarenes than any other country in the world.

There would certainly be symbolic value to hosting GA outside of the USA, but symbolism is expensive and the denomination's free-spending days are long gone. Will they return? I'm not betting on it.

[Billy Cox]

I think though that if we move GA out of the US you will see it move much more toward the business side of things rather than the social. Why? Because you will not have nearly as many people who are able from a financial standpoint to go. It would be interesting to see what the financial condition of most Nazarene's in other world areas is compared to the financial conditions of those in the US. I doubt that there are really that many outside of the US who could afford to make the trek on their own, regardless of where it is. Also, you have to remember that it is the General Conventions that tend to attract the crowds, the Assembly portion comes after that (at least that has been my experience). I feel like the conventions really are as much a fellowship time as anything, whereas the assembly is the business side of the few days (probably also why it takes place at the end, after everything else has concluded).

What we need is to add make the quadrennial pilgrimage to GA a sacrament. That would at least increase the draw from New England where they care about sacraments. :smilies0150:

[Ryan Scott]

It's also true that a so-called international GA would have virtually no benefit for international delegates, except for those in the host country.

Most of the utilitarian appeal of an international GA is fueled by flawed logic. There are indeed more Nazarenes outside of the USA, but America still has far more Nazarenes than any other country. I wager that the state of Ohio has more Nazarenes than any other country in the world.

There would certainly be symbolic value to hosting GA outside of the USA, but symbolism is expensive and the denomination's free-spending days are long gone. Will they return? I'm not betting on it.

Ethiopia and Haiti both have more Nazarenes than Ohio, by a wide margin. I suspect Brazil does as well.

The real benefit to an international GA is visa access and cost. Toronto solves the first issue, but you'd have to go to some place like Dubai or Zurich before the second would come into play. Even then, it might not make a huge difference given the number of delegates who comes from North and South America.

[Billy Cox]

Ethiopia and Haiti both have more Nazarenes than Ohio, by a wide margin. I suspect Brazil does as well.

Yeah, I haven't seen any votes for hosting GA in Ethiopia or Haiti. It would be interesting to see if the numbers in those countries are real or whether they are subject to 'third world mathematics'. (similar to pastoral math, but far more imaginatively hyperbolic)

I see a lot of sentiment expressed about wanting to keep the present 'character' of the GA. Move it outside of the USA, and *that* character is gone. Most of the GA tourists (those who attend purely for the spectacle) aren't going to travel outside the USA unless they are already accustomed to world travel.


The real benefit to an international GA is visa access and cost. Toronto solves the first issue, but you'd have to go to some place like Dubai or Zurich before the second would come into play. Even then, it might not make a huge difference given the number of delegates who comes from North and South America.

I think there is an argument to be made for an international GA, but cost saving is not part of it. Doing things for symbolic value is expensive.

[Franklin Cook]

For the most part I agree with David McClung. Future General Assemblies will need to be virtual in nature with substitute regional gatherings as mentioned by Hans.

More important than where the assembly is held is to determine what the assembly is to do and how it is to be done. With over 70% of current membership outside of North America (by the way, Mexico City is part of North America) and with the Africa region alone about to pass up the membership of the USA, it is time for a major rethink.

When I say "how it is to be done" I mean the elective delegate process, the consideration of resolutions, the place and role of study commissions, and etc.

[Billy Cox]

For the most part I agree with David McClung. Future General Assemblies will need to be virtual in nature with substitute regional gatherings as mentioned by Hans.

More important than where the assembly is held is to determine what the assembly is to do and how it is to be done. With over 70% of current membership outside of North America (by the way, Mexico City is part of North America) and with the Africa region alone about to pass up the membership of the USA, it is time for a major rethink.

When I say "how it is to be done" I mean the elective delegate process, the consideration of resolutions, the place and role of study commissions, and etc.

I can't see the powers-that-be greenlighting and idea that would wrest control of the denomination from them.

[Billy Cox]

General Assembly is about so much more than attempting to fill a hotel block.

Yes, there is also generous tipping to make up for all of the alcohol that we don't consume. :rolleyes:

[Hans Deventer]

Yes, there is also generous tipping to make up for all of the alcohol that we don't consume. :rolleyes:

If it's really a problem for the church, I'm willing to consume some alcohol in Indy. You gotta do something for the church you love. :smilies0041:

[John Kennedy]

If it's really a problem for the church, I'm willing to consume some alcohol in Indy. You gotta do something for the church you love. :smilies0041:


It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta' do it!

[Bill Morrison]

Why don't we just charter a cruise ship?

We could schedule a couple of ports for picking people up... and then just have our meeting in the middle of the Atlantic.

Stupid idea, Jon.
1. If the ship were to become disabled, the Coast Guard probably would not rescue us, as it might be construed as violating separation of church and state.
2. I have been told sailors cuss a lot....some delegates might be tempted to join in, especially when we get to ballot 12 for GS election.
3. Nazarenes eat an awful lot, and if the toilets stopped functioning as has happened on some recent cruises, God's work would come to a standstill.
4. Do we really want General Assembly, the highest of Holy days on the Nazarene Church Calendar, to be associated with concepts like "CARNIVAL Cruise Line" or "the LOVE boat"? (Well maybe the latter would be appropriate).
5. Remember what happened to both Jonah and Paul when they were stupid enough to take a cruise.

BILL