Dobson v. Armey

[Cindi Hammons]

Although Dobson may not realize it, government-mandated righteousness is a pathway to tyranny...When we defend values, we win; when we impose values, we lose.--Dick Armey


There is a spat going on between FOTF's James Dobson and former Majority Leader Dick Armey. It's fun to read how two people can have such different "takes" on mutual conversations. This time, I think I have to agree with Armey and his comments. The complete article can be found on Fox News Online.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

There is a spat going on between FOTF's James Dobson and former Majority Leader Dick Armey. It's fun to read how two people can have such different "takes" on mutual conversations. This time, I think I have to agree with Armey and his comments. The complete article can be found on Fox News Online.

I just read Dobson's response -- so far as I can tell everything Dobson says is so. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,226522,00.html

[Cindi Hammons]

Who knows who is telling "the truth" on this...however, I do agree with the statements from Armey that I quoted above.

[Billy Cox]

There is a spat going on between FOTF's James Dobson and former Majority Leader Dick Armey. It's fun to read how two people can have such different "takes" on mutual conversations. This time, I think I have to agree with Armey and his comments. The complete article can be found on Fox News Online.

Perhaps the political winds are begining to blow toward a popular backlash against America's most famous Christian lobbyist.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Perhaps the political winds are begining to blow toward a popular backlash against America's most famous Christian lobbyist.

From other posts you have done I know that you are no fan of Dobson. I seldom listen to his program myself, but, honestly, I have heard very little from him that I don't agree with. Every time someone says something about Dobson that gets my attention I go to his website or try to find the actual source and every time the complaint against him either comes from someone with an agenda of their own or is based on some kind of mis-characterization of what I found on his own website.

I don't think we have to embrace him and become his disciples, but from what I have seen, I am much more comfortable with Dobson than I am with his enemies.

[Gina Stevenson]

Well said. However, I must admit I was surprised to see his face a couple of times in the last few days on the tube. But, after all he's said and done, nothing to lose by letting them video him urging people to get out and vote, rather than sitting to home, so why not, eh? ;) 'Just might be that some would go would were ambivalent about it ...

[from a voter who votes even if it's not a presidential election ;)]

From other posts you have done I know that you are no fan of Dobson. I seldom listen to his program myself, but, honestly, I have heard very little from him that I don't agree with. Every time someone says something about Dobson that gets my attention I go to his website or try to find the actual source and every time the complaint against him either comes from someone with an agenda of their own or is based on some kind of mis-characterization of what I found on his own website.

I don't think we have to embrace him and become his disciples, but from what I have seen, I am much more comfortable with Dobson than I am with his enemies.

[Wesley Smith]

These, in my humble opinion, are not good political days in our United States. Some may/can disagree, but I am personally disappointed with politicians across the board. It seems to me that the dominoes are falling in the direction of the Europeanization of America. We are watching historic American fundamentals and values being whittled and hacked away.

Dr. Dobson is and has been a tremendous balance to the far and liberal left. I've not studied his position on everything, but I am awed by the energy and expertise he contributes to family and moral causes. Where in the world would we be without him and Focus on the Family? Dr. Dobson and Dr. H. B. London have stood strongly and faithfully for pastors. My hat is off to them. I have been the beneficiary of their personal generosity and have observed their global impact on pastors and churches. I've never been close to Dr. Dobson, though I did chat with him on the phone in about 1980 and received a person letter from him when I pastored in Alaska. H. B. and I have been good friends for many years (but I suspect thousands and thousands of pastors would say that).

The Armey attack on Dr. Dobson is profoundly mystifying to me. I have nothing but awe and curiosity that he would target his criticism on someone who stands for good and wholesome values. All of us have limitted time and energy. Why wouldn't Armey use his to attack influences and persons who promote the downside of our culture?

I believe there will be a final judgement when God wraps this phase of time up. My plan is to hang around somewhere and watch how He deals with Dobson! The truth of the matter is that he (Dr. Dobson) could have stayed hunkered down in some office or suite of offices practicing. He could have just attended church like most other Christians. Worse yet, he could have spent his time and energy being a crank. For many believers final judgement will be incredibly brief because there will be so little to deal with. With Dr. Dobson, I have no doubt, there will be millions of people who could/will testify how his life and ministry helped them directly. There will be believers from every niche of the globe giving witness to how his influence and help made their lives better.

Just over three months ago I was in a major quad accident. One significant outcome of the accident has been a deepened spiritual relationship between my wife and I. Words are totally inadequate to tell the good that came out of moments and hours my life was in the balance. After a few days when I was able to collect and share my thoughts with Colleen about making the most of the rest of whatever time God gives, we decided to make time in each day to pray and have devotions together. Who was there to help us? Dobson! For the past, now, 89 days we have turned to "Night Light" by Dr. James and Shirley Dobson to help us in this process!

My hat is off to the man.

Friend,

Wes

[Gina Stevenson]

... hope when I said what I did, "after all he's said and done, what's he got to lose (saying just a bit more)...?" that it wasn't taken in a negative way. I meant that he's said and done enough that's helped others that, even if someone should criticize him for "getting political" (hey, politics does affect the family!), he's nothing left to lose by moving over from radio to even TV! ;)

'Knowing there've been various folks helped by the "Tough Love" book, while there have been many others that have helped countless people, that in itself is a good thing. Seems like that one was one of his earlier books.

As for devo's together... that's cool! It's something we tried to do everyday, too (Danny & I). Sometimes we didnt' get around to that, tho' we would try to at least pray together, if not taking time to sit down and read together, too. Kudos!

[Wesley Smith]

It wasn't. Just got to thinking about all the influence that Dr. Dobson has had and that led to the above post. I've thought many times that his mom and dad could not have known who they were raising!

Wes

[Billy Cox]

I am not entirely convinced that organized opposition to abortion and gay marriage makes any difference to the well being of my family...or any other family for that matter.

After 25+ years of focusing on the family, evangelical families implode at the same rate as secular humanist families. Am I missing something?

[Gina Stevenson]

I am not entirely convinced that organized opposition to abortion and gay marriage makes any difference to the well being of my family...or any other family for that matter.

After 25+ years of focusing on the family, evangelical families implode at the same rate as secular humanist families. Am I missing something?

Perhaps "missing(?)" an unknown factor ... that being how much more they might even be "imploding," were it not for some of this influence? 'Just a tho't ... not wanting to start an argument ... you asked, so I answered. ;)

[Bruce Carriker]

Billy Cox' post: "I am not entirely convinced that organized opposition to abortion and gay marriage makes any difference to the well being of my family...or any other family for that matter.

After 25+ years of focusing on the family, evangelical families implode at the same rate as secular humanist families. Am I missing something?"

Gina's response: "Perhaps "missing(?)" an unknown factor ... that being how much more they might even be "imploding," were it not for some of this influence? 'Just a tho't ... not wanting to start an argument ... you asked, so I answered."

My reaction: So, Gina, are you saying that without FOTF and similar influences, evangelical families would be EVEN WORSE than the seculuar humanist families? The implication of your statement is that we need even more help, just to do equally as poorly. I'm not sure I find that comforting?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Why do we always end up chasing down rabbit trails on this kind of stuff? Dick Armey made some charges against James Dobson and Dobson responded that they were false. Apparently, no one wants to decide whether that is true or not, so off we go to a debate about who knows what.

I'm all for having agendas and wanting to discuss specific things but how about starting a thread of our own and see if anyone wants to talk about it instead of hijacking other people's threads?

And, I am trying to practice what I preach here, although I admit I am guilty of sometimes doing the same thing.

[Bruce Carriker]

Okay, Scott...back to original comment by Dick Armey:

right‧eous‧ness  –noun
1. the quality or state of being righteous.
2. righteous conduct.
3. the quality or state of being just or rightful: They came to realize the righteousness of her position on the matter.

We tend to use righteousness in a religious context, but it is not a uniquely religious word. It has more to do with what is right and just. Used in this context, Armey's statement shows how little he understands about government, which is surprising for someone who was in government as long as he was.

All legislation is an attempt to enact into law SOMEONE'S idea of righteousness. The pro-choice community believes it is right and just, i.e., righteous, to allow women to choose whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term. The pro-life community believes it is right and just, i.e., righteous, to protect the life of the unborn child. Both sides are attempting to impose their view of righteousness on those with whom they disagree.

The same can be said of the opposing sides on issues such as the death penalty, the war in Iraq, tax policy, health care, stem cell research, homosexual rights, energy policy, the environement, etc, etc. Everything any lawmaking body does involves imposing their collectively agreed upon definition of righteousness on the rest of the community.

So, Dobson has every right...and some would say responsibility...to lobby for the enactment of what he sees as righteous laws and policies. Armey's contention that we cannot impose righteousness ignores the fact that government does precisely that EVERY TIME THEY ACT.

[Billy Cox]

Why do we always end up chasing down rabbit trails on this kind of stuff? Dick Armey made some charges against James Dobson and Dobson responded that they were false. Apparently, no one wants to decide whether that is true or not, so off we go to a debate about who knows what.

I'm all for having agendas and wanting to discuss specific things but how about starting a thread of our own and see if anyone wants to talk about it instead of hijacking other people's threads?

And, I am trying to practice what I preach here, although I admit I am guilty of sometimes doing the same thing.

In my original post, I suggested that a spat between Armey and Dobson may be a sign that mainstream Republicans are concerned about the direction in which evangelical activists are taking the party. That seems pretty relevant to me.

It also seems ironic to me that Dobson's efforts may split the Republican party, thus assuring that a Democrat will win the presidency in 2008.

[Bruce Carriker]

In my original post, I suggested that a spat between Armey and Dobson may be a sign that mainstream Republicans are concerned about the direction in which evangelical activists are taking the party. That seems pretty relevant to me.

It also seems ironic to me that Dobson's efforts may split the Republican party, thus assuring that a Democrat will win the presidency in 2008.

Personally, I hope both parties split soon. Then the socially conservative/fiscally progressive folks...who are currently anathema in both parties...can take their place as the majority they are.

[Gina Stevenson]

Gina's: "Perhaps "missing(?)" an unknown factor ... that being how much more they might even be "imploding," were it not for some of this influence? 'Just a tho't ... not wanting to start an argument ... you asked, so I answered."

My reaction: So, Gina, are you saying that without FOTF and similar influences, evangelical families would be EVEN WORSE than the seculuar humanist families? The implication of your statement is that we need even more help, just to do equally as poorly. I'm not sure I find that comforting?

Uh, sorry, Scott! And Bruce, what can I say? That does sound rather dismal, doesn't it? Sometimes we in the Christian community might have higher expectations from marriage than those outside (from stories we've heard of how it "could be"), so we might be more apt to fail to "cover things with love" than someone outside the church ... sometimes? Thinking here of that verse we read of love "covering a multitude of sins." So, if we both have the same amount of influence from teachers/counselors---or lack thereof---perhaps those in the church might sometimes just tend to break things off even more quickly than some "out there," since it's now come to be "acceptable" ... while remembering those "higher expectations" some can have within the church. Yes, we should be able to expect, somehow, more of a marriage in which God is included than perhaps from one where He is left out ... yet, "great expectations" are, I've heard, to be given to God, not dwelt upon to the detriment of any relationship that might not be fully meeting those "expectations." [just tho't of someone whose marriage I was not sure 25 or more years ago was going to be one of those that lasted; have run into her a couple of times or more the past few years, and it definitely has ... so, sometimes we just never know, huh? ;)]